BMW X3 vs Subaru Forester XT vs Infiniti FX 35 vs Toyota RAV4

ateixeira

Actually the Forester won't roll over, it'll power slide. Tires lose traction way before it tips over. If the tails comes out the AWD will shift power to the front axle and it pulls you out of the skid, it's quite fun in the snow.

You can drive every Subaru "slideways".

Subaru's WRC Rally Team uses the Forester to pre-run the toughest rallies, like Kenya.

Most everything from the STi does indeed bolt right one, the wheel offset is slightly different but that's about it. And you can fit a lot more tire, too.

Lots of kids aspire to own WRXs. Maybe they aspire to own M3s at a Prep School, is that where your son goes? That would make sense to me.

Actually, among very young kids the vehicles most of them aspire to own are down-to-earth Civics and Acuras.

Bob - really? Sales figures seem to imply that's not the case. The new 5 didn't arrive until the later part of the year, anyway.

-juice

corkfish

I'm 44. The last thing I want to drive is a car a teenager aspires to own. That's why I bought the XT instead of the STI. That said, you can't compare the performance to the new M3's. It's great in a straight line, but I wouldn't say the handling is particularly good at all. It drives a lot like a late 60's muscle car.

ballistic

I drove '60s musclecars - Camaro, Mustangs, Barracudas, GTO, Charger...none of those extremely nose-heavy, live-axle, leaf-sprung, drum-braked musclecars of the 60s, running on their mediocre bias-ply tires, could have held a candle to my XT on twisty roads.

designman

Enjoyed your posts. You obviously are a man who thinks for himself and are not afraid to go against convention. It is clear to me that Suburu is on an upswing with regard to reliability, performance and value. BMW is getting to be too much of a fat cat and will have a wake-up call in the immediate and upcoming few years.

designman

"The last thing I want to drive is a car a teenager aspires to own."

You really have to get over this. I'm 53 and would love to have an STi. I'll take mine without the spoiler though.

corkfish

All I know is my XT could get nowhere near my 1993 Sentra SE-R on a twisty road and it still reminds me of my 1969 Mach I (complete with hood scoop). Although, it's much quieter!

rickrover

I'm in my late 40's, before I got the STi I thought I'd swap trunks with a regular Impreza to get rid of the huge rear wing. Now that I've owned it for 8 months I wouldn't think of getting rid of it. That wing is part of it's rally heritage and it actually is functional - it literally glues the STi to the road at speeds in excess of 100 MPH, very, very stable at speed.

The Forester may give the feeling of being a little tippy in the twisty bits but it's limits of adhesion are above an SE-R. A couple grand in simple suspension/ tire upgrades and the XT will hang with most any state of the art sports car.

ateixeira

That Sentra was a heck of a little car, and weighed about half a ton less. It's more comparable to a Mini Cooper S.

Bone-stock the Forester has a ton of suspension travel, 7" more than the Impreza, so no way will it match the handling of that car.

But that same fact allows it to absorb a lot of punishment, be it potholes or a rutted gravel road.

-juice

rickrover

I still see modified SE-R's at SCCA events, they are very competitive - in the Forester if you get past all the travel and allow the suspension to settle into a turn you'd be suprised how well it will hang on, it is an unsettling feeling for sure because it feels like it's tipping. The most effective suspension upgrade for it would be to replace the springs to eliminate a lot of that travel and lower it's center of gravity.

vsroman

Does Suburu have any plans for a slightly larger crossover-type vehicle based on the WRX?

Reading all of the passionate subie posts, I have a new found respect...I just don't like the looks of the Forester.

I might even settle for a larger version of the impreza WRX wagon?

ateixeira

lark6 from these forums took his Forester to autocross and his times were quicker than any Maxima or V6 Accord that day. This in a 165hp with a stock suspension, this in his autocross debut as a rookie.

So they're not elephants, they're just not nimble little mice either.

I bet the X3 and FX would feel pretty big going around the cones also, surely those would shine on more open roads.

Now that Lucien has an XT I expect he'll get out to an event of some sort this summer. He has more experience. I doubt he'll embarass himself, put it that way.

-juice

ballistic

A larger 7-passenger Subaru is in the works.

I'm 59 and wouldn't even think of exchanging my XT's conservative look and compliant ride qualities for the boy-racer style and kidney-punching ride of an STi.

ateixeira

Here's an earlier S model, pre-2003:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid18/pc89f0a7edfa0852e51fe- cad92aa8b684/fdcfb394.jpg

Check out all that travel.

The setup is more RallyCross friendly, it's more at home in this pic:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid18/pfe608a76383e030338b5- 6ab312637619/fdcfb286.jpg

That's an SCCA event also, we joke it's called "spec Subaru".

-juice

vsroman

ballistic

I haven't seen any, and I don't think it's quite that far along yet.

ateixeira

We've seen some sketches, and they might show a concept that previews the 7 seater at the New York show in April. The production model will debut at NAIAS in January 2005.

If you saw the B11S and the B9SC, plus the R1e and R2 at Tokyo, take a good look at that face. Andreas Zapatinas came from Alfa Romeo (and BMW before that) so some say the new Subaru face looks like an Alfa grille turned upside down.

That'll be a big vehicle, though. Bigger platform than even the Outback. If you want a bigger WRX wagon, well, the Forester is just that, it's on the Impreza platform.

There are rumors of a little people mover also based on the Impreza, but I think it would be more of a very small van.

-juice

vsroman

I bet the new 7-seater will be a Pacifica-like vehicle as opposed to an Expedition/Armada large SUV. If they come out with something Pacifica-like, drop in the performance engine, and package it for low 30's, they might have a big, big winner.

lark6

Drop away for a few days and...phew!

juice: Yes, I didn't have a bad day for my first-ever autocross. New dad status means my next probably won't come for a very long time. Lucien is much more experienced in auto-x than I, but like me he will find his auto-xing days cut drastically in, say, eight or nine months from now. ;-)

I've also run an SCCA TSD rally in my car. Rookie driver and navvie meant a near bottom-of-the-pack finish, but we did finish and didn't embarrass ourselves as it was a largely veteran field.

It bears mentioning that I did run that auto-x on a plus-one, 17" wheel-and-tire setup. Everything else was bone stock save for a fatter rear sway bar (18mm cf. the OEM 13mm).

I'm still hoping some reputable publication or web site will do a head-to-head test of the X3 and Forester XT.

Ed

rsholland

Juice and I were talking to Patti at the Philly show last week, and she said the spoiler is not just boy-racer eye candy. It indeed helps keep the car glued to the road. It was/is an engineering decision to include it. Any marketing issues of the wing were overruled by hard engineering.

If it happens to look too boy-racy, that's an unfortunate by-product, and not a conscious decision.

Bob

ballistic

The problem with that is that the wing provides no material beneficial effect at anything resembling legal speeds. Therefore, that huge, unsightly wing is either (a) a marketing gimmick, pure and simple, insofar as legal drivers are concerned, or else it is (b) an inducement for less-than-responsible drivers to drive recklessly on streets we all share.

Either way, I want nothing to do with it.

rsholland

for the STi to exist, is to give Subaru a performance image that few if any other carmakers can match. Everything about that car is there for speed. If removing that wing makes it look better, but hurts performance, Subaru (the brand) loses.

It's an image/halo car for Subaru, pure and simple.

Also, it would not surprise me one bit if 50% or more STi owners do compete at the race track. Juice, paisan and myself were at Summit Point Road Race Track in West Virginia last fall, and I was amazed by how many STis were there competing.

Bob

ballistic

I have no quarrel with people who drive in organized, sanctioned competition events on closed circuits. I am utterly intolerant of anyone driving in similar fashion on the streets. My brother-in-law, finest guy you'd ever meet, who had recently retired after 40 years at Tektronix, was killed by a 20-year-old scofflaw unemployed drug-dealing high-school dropout punk with a suspended licence, racing at nearly three times the legal limit on a city street in a 6,000 lb 4WD SUV. He slammed broadside into my brother-in-law's Aurora. For all that, he got three whole years.

rsholland

Agreed, and sorry about your loss.

Bob

corkfish

Most people don't know or don't car if the wing and hood scoop are functional, all they'll see when I pull into work is a grown man driving around in something that resembles the "Hi Rev Tuner" high school crowd. Functional? Yeah I know, but that does'nt make it any less embarassing for a grown man to be driving around in. A scoop on an SUV looks rugged. A scoop on a car looks boy racer.

ateixeira

Yes, it will be somewhere between a Pacifica and an MDX, I predict.

Ed: I'd forgotten about the TSD. Some day we'll have to meet up at a track or autocross event and have some fun.

STi may have been the single most common model in the Summit Point infield. Seriously, people do race them - a lot.

-juice

rsholland

with this off-topic theme...

Found this over at nabisco, and in it are some interesting facts regarding WRX (not STi, but still relevant) demographics. The median WRX owner is 39 years old, well educated and with a household income of $100K. Not many boy racers in that group I suspect.

http://www.autonet.ca/Autonetstories/Stories.cfm?storyID=11135

Bob

rickrover

In my own very unscientific STi owner survey - I've only met one STi owner under 30. Most are mid to late 30's or 40's. Lancer Evo drivers tend to be a little younger although one of my track buddies has a daily driver Evo - a dentist in his mid to late 40's. I have seen one Evo driver around town a couple times that has to be in his 70's at least, I would love to chase this guy down and talk to him.

I can't say I use my STi as a daily driver on a regular basis, I tend to haul things around with me and need a wagon type vehicle - my daily driver is a Jetta TDI wagon. The STi is a perfectly acceptable daily driver, I don't consider the ride at all punishing. Although it never lets you forget it's a street legal race car.

mark_lp

Was it the Nissan 350z or the Toyota Supra that had a large wing on it for awhile? Maybe someone could chime in on which one it was. Anyway, I thought that car with that huge wing was just awful looking. That was until Subaru's came out. It looks purely bolted on, cheap and flimsy, probably one of the worst wing jobs of all time. Why doesn't Subaru spend the money on engineering the car correctly the first time so that it does not look so bad? Better coeffiecient of drag both under and over the car, better suspension, and better tires would fix almost all of the necessity for that ridiculous wing. Look at the first M3 with a properly proportioned and well integrated design for a clue. Look how Audi with the TT integrated a spoiler for high speeds.

If your going to do something, do it well.

ateixeira

Middle-aged rich folks? Really? Hmm.

I completely disagree - the spoiler on the TT ruins the design completely. It's totally tacked on. You have a smooth, flowing shape, and a blunt interruption.

If I had the early model and they tried to recall mine, I would not let them install that hideous thing. I would never hit the speeds to require it anyway.

The current M3 is tasteful but look two generations back and it was pretty silly.

The car you're thinking of was the Supra, that had the old basket handle.

They're all kinda silly at 75 mph or less, but at least the STi is a tribute to the real car, and it looks authentic, ready to run in SCCA Group N.

Even the S4 has some very ugly touches in the side skirts.

There's no accounting for bad taste, at any price. Look at the Cayenne!

-juice

ballistic

the spoiler on the TT ruins the design completely.

Loving other Audis as I do, it pains me to say that it isn't the spoiler that ruins the design of the TT. It was Audi that ruined the design of the TT. The soft-top version is the lesser of evils, but the TT coupe ranks with the ugliest automotive designs I've ever seen. How the same people who created the current A4, A6, and A8 could have produced this is incomprehensible. There are times, as with the Pontiac Aztek, when I find myself thinking that these designers occasionally decide to see just how much ugliness some car buyers will tolerate.

mark_lp

I can't agree more with you about the Cayenne. Not easy on the eyes at all. I think the VW version has better styling. I'm not an Audi fan by nature but I think my point abut the TT was that at least it was discreet. I thought they had to add it because the car was a little jumpy in the back starting around 65mph or so. In MI here, the speed limit on most of our freeways reaches to 70 legally. People are driving 85+ on a regular basis here. I think most people would have to add the wing.
ballistic, I will actually agree with you on the current design trends. Ugly, ugly, and even uglier. How many new cars out there say buy me? Not many. There is one car that has always said "buy me" to myself. That is the Acura NSX. That car in the used market is probably one of the most sexy, fast, reliable cars out there. my 2 cents.

ballistic

Same wavelength. Earlier, someone said if they had $90K to spend on a car, they'd buy a BMW 745i. I nearly gagged on that. My reply was that if I wanted to spend that much on a car, I'd buy an Acura NSX. They are beautiful, extremely well made, handle like almost nothing else, fast, reliable, and relatively exclusive. The NSX would easily make my list of top ten cars made in the last 30 years.

rsholland

It was Audi that ruined the design of the TT. The soft-top version is the lesser of evils, but the TT coupe ranks with the ugliest automotive designs I've ever seen.

I couldn't disagree more. I think it's one of the greatest car designs of recent years.

Bob

petewat3

I totally agree..... ala porsche speedster.

ateixeira

Dunno, I like the TT also. Won't be mistaken for anything else.

Audi TT really shines on the inside. It single-handedly started a revolution of interior design. Can you think of one new car that doesn't get some sort of chrome/aluminum/silver accent?

Didn't realize the rear got lose at such low speeds. I'd thought it was 120+ mph autobahn runs.

-juice

rsholland

that the spoiler that was later added to the TT, to correct handling flaws, looks like a band-aid solution.

Bob

ballistic

Won't be mistaken for anything else.

The exact same thing can be said of the Pontiac Aztek. Making a car hideously ugly purely for the sake of looking different is no advantage in my book.

rickrover

Now that you mention it there aren't that many new cars that I would consider good looking.

In SUV's the FX and X5, Murano is nice to look at IMO

In sedans Mercedes, C, E or S, Audi A4. The Passat is a nice design that's starting to look dated.

In sports coupes/ roadsters - Porsche 911, Mercedes SL, Audi TT and the Lamborghini's.

In station wagons the Audi A4 Avant wins hands down with a distant second the 3 series wagon.

That's about it for me - I obviously don't buy cars on looks alone.

ateixeira

TT looks like a skirted salt flat car. Not a grotesque minivan made into a crossover.

I think Infiniti nailed styling with the G35 coupe, might just be the most handsome vehicle ont he market today.

You don't have to be too flashy.

-juice

rickrover

Nissan does have some nice designs G35 coupe, Maxima, I even like the minivan, that big SUV gets a big thumbs down.

scotth6

Road & Track March 2004 Quotes on the WRX/STI
1)"minor clutch Judder"
2)"replace the clutch and Flywheel"
3)"inordinate amount of paint chipping on the hood and front fenders"
4)"occassional rattle in the dash"
5)"creaking from the drivers door when fdriven on bumpy services"
6)"dash cupholder was an annoyance from Day 1"
7)"the cheap feeling trunk mat isn't secured to the floor"
8)staff members" complained of a harsh ride"
9)staff members" complained of turbo lag"
10) staff members complained of excessive road noise"
11) "increased tire noise"
Maybe the 15-17 year olds know something you Subaru owners ought to learn, BMW doesn't have these problems

ballistic

dcm61

ateixeira

I don't care much for the Max, and the Quest hasn't grown on me either. Too "bizarre".

Scott: your summary only proves one thing, that was some seriously selective reading, completely biased. How long did it take you to filter out only the bad comments?

Let's get closer to home, right here on Edmunds.com, look at the absolutely PATHETIC review they gave the 325xi:

http://www.edmunds.com/used/2001/bmw/3series/100000472/roadtestar- ticle.html?articleId=46587

I doubt you can find a review that bad for the WRX. We win. LOL

-juice

ballistic

Two years ago while I was helping my sister find a replacement for the Aurora in which her husband was killed, we worked our way to two finalists: The 6-speed Audi A4 Avant 3.0 MT, and the BMW 325xi MT. It was a very, very tough call. We both went back and forth between the two for more than a month. She wound up with the Avant, and dearly loves it. I like it, too, but I've never met a V-6 I like as well as a really good inline six.

ateixeira

Point is you can find an opinion to support any position, no matter how absurd. I'm sure an Aztek fan could dig up a good review for it.

Any editor who says the STi rides too stiffly should re-check his expectations for such a vehicle.

-juice

ozman62

That's hilarious... Beaten in the slalom by an XL-7!! Some sport wagon. LOL.
Owen

ateixeira

Have you seen these ads?

GM puts an picture of the Aztek next to a Scion xB and a Honda Element, both have been sales successes exceeding their goals. GM takes credit for starting this trend of bold design!

-juice

ballistic

I'm sure an Aztek fan could dig up a good review for it.

Does the AARP do road tests? Theirs is the only demographic with sufficiently lousy vision to overlook the Aztek's stomach-emptying look.

ateixeira

Lots of press tried to be very kind, because they get advertising dollars from Pontiac.

-juice