BMW X3 vs Subaru Forester XT vs Infiniti FX 35 vs Toyota RAV4

ballistic

next to a Scion xB and a Honda Element, both have been sales successes exceeding their goals. GM takes credit for starting this trend of bold design!

All three of these are appallingly ugly, so it's not credit GM deserves, it's ridicule and villification.

ateixeira

Element was the best selling new import name plate in its first year, and it brought new buyers to Honda with a younger demographic without hurting CR-V sales.

Ugly or not, in terms of pure marketing and sales, it was a HUGE success.

Scion xB demand is exceeding supply, and its demographics make them the 14th youngest of any vehicle on the market. That was exactly Toyota's goal, bring in young buyers.

But for GM to claim credit for both, when its own sales flopped? PR Spin at its best.

-juice

ballistic

That the Element and Scion xB are attracting floods of "younger demographic" buyers is merely the latest proof that our schools are failing to impart knowledge or wisdom.

tyresmoker

Your quote:
"Maybe the 15-17 year olds know something you Subaru owners ought to learn, BMW doesn't have these problems"
Yeah, keep believing that your beloved BMW's are perfect. Care to guess how many recalls the X5 has scored?
You will have to deliver a lot of papers every week to make up for the price difference between the STi and the M3 that you seem to want to compare.

ateixeira

LOL JB, you always seem to have the unexpected point of view.

I do find it interesting that BMW offers 4 years of free maintenance, uses high quality synthetic oils, and still manages to score not-so-well in reliability surveys despite this best service/best consumables strategy.

It would be a concern for me as a buyer if I kept it beyong those 4 years, to be honest.

-juice

designman

Aztek bashing is a little overcooked. As absurd as the Aztek appears to most, I still think it is better looking than EVERY Bangle BMW. The Aztek has order to its lines while all of the lines on his BMWs are chaotic.

ballistic

On the ugly scale, the Aztek trumps anything Bangle has done...yet. However, GM learned from its debacle. BMW shows no sign of doing so.

designman

No use arguing about Aztek...this will fall on deaf ears. What I can tell you is that Bangle will be remembered, not for Aztek, but for this current era in BMW history... and with regard to trump power this takes the biscuit... this beats Edsel. We're not talking about one car, but a whole lineup of abominations... this will be a study in classrooms for a long time to come.

As far as BMW showing signs of recovery from this mess, it's already under way... very early in the game, but at least there's a sign.

kevin111

vsroman - The car I think you are looking for is either the new Legacy GT or the Outback XT. Both are a little bigger than the WRX wagon and just as fast, if not faster. They both also get 17" wheels for improved handling.

WRX/STi Vs BMW M3 by scotth6 -
- May want to read Car and Driver's write up of the M3 for comparison. They bashed it as well.

This included:
- Side molding falling off
- A ride only a hardcore driver could love
- Not starting in cold weather.
- Needing expensive BMW oil for oil changes ($9 a quart!).
- Does not come with leather seats (option) for $50K+ price tag.

- In terms of the STi, for its handling prowelness, it is said to have a more compliant ride than some of its competitors. Of course if you want an even more compliant and quiet ride, you can always go with just a WRX, which is about as fast as a 330i ZHP addition (10+ hp and 6-speed)

rsholland

His new title is Group Director of Design, and he will oversee all of BMW design, as well as the design of all of BMW's subsidiaries.

http://www.cardesignnews.com/news/2004/040209bmw-design/index.htm- - - l

It sure doesn't sound like BMW has lost confidence in him or his abilities.

Bob

kcrudup

Guess his designs aren't that "ugly" after all, huh?!

designman

BMW is calling it a promotion to avoid negative PR.... Design Director Emeritus... a golden parachute. He' s untouchable in the launch of the new model year.

The problem is that sales are horrible, his vision was horrible, and they have to plan a future while selling the junk they already have. Not only that, there is fierce competition. This year is going to be a circus with BMW and man, are they going to take a beating in the press and on the spreadsheets. It's just beginning to show.

rsholland

He's been promoted... There's nothing "Emeritus" about his new position. He's running the show. How you can interpret that report as a firing is beyond me.

Bob

designman

BMW is shuffling responsibilities and positions. Bangle formerly had control over everything BMW, which includes all vehicles,... cars and motorcycles. Also he WAS the final decision maker with regard to all manner of design. Apparently, now he isn’t. Evidently, in the new scheme of things Adrian van Hooydonk will have that power with the BMW brand.

BMW will spin this many ways, but I believe Bangle will now be a stuffed suit at meetings, a figurehead to sell the cars they are stuck with for the next couple of years... more title, less power. Called it what you want... he’s been neutered.

rsholland

He' still in charge of things. Do you think for a moment that he will let stuff out that he doesn't approve of?

Even when he was in charge of BMW cars, he didn't ink the drawings. His staff did, under his guidance. It's no different now, only now he has a broader canvas to deal with. Besides, the guy who replaced Bangle, is reportedly a loyal follower of the Bangle school of design. So I don't expect big changes in the looks of future BMWs. It will probably be just an extension of what Bangle has done before.

To suggest that he's now just a figurehead with no power is shortsighted at best.

Bob

ateixeira

designman: I agree, we'll look back in 10-20 years and call these the dark days of BMW design.

Remember, the guy responsible for the Aztek was also promoted. Maybe they figure they'll do less harm there, i.e. the Dilbert Principle.

-juice

rsholland

I agree, we'll look back in 10-20 years and call these the dark days of BMW design.

We don't have the advantage of time on our side, so predicting how Bangle will be viewed in a historical context is risky at best. As I've said before, artists (or car designers, as in this case) have been damned many times over by their critics and peers in their own time, only to have history reverse those opinions.

Now let me also be clear in that I'm not so much the fan of Bangle, as you all may think. I just don't think he's the "designer from hell" that you all make him out to be. Remember, I come at this from a different perspective than most* of you here. I've spent 30+ years in design, so I understand what it's like to be a designer and to have new ideas that meet resistance. It goes with the turf.

* = Not sure what profession designman is in, other than I assume that it's *design* related. Even so, not all designers agree on what's good or bad design.

Bob

mamgt

It's interesting reading the above posts. It's always a challenge for a car company to attract buyers from all age groups, but I believe BMW has done a better job than most. The reason Bangle was brought in was because BMW recognized their styling was starting to look a bit stodgy and wanted to freshen it up. Naturally, when a car company tinkers with convention and pushes the envelope, they will get some resistance from the "old guard" as evidenced by some of the reviews (and posts). No one should be surprised that Bangle stirred things up. It was his job to do so. Time will tell what kind of impact Bangle's vision will have for BMW, but to be on the cutting edge means taking risks. The great car companies take those risks, while the other car companies follow in their foot steps. While I am not a fan of the new 7 series, I think the new 5 and 6 series look absolutely stunning. Contrary to what some have suggested, these are definitely not "the dark days" for BMW. They just came off one of their best years ever... and even if they do encounter a little bump in the road, their track record suggests that it will remain just that...a little bump in the road.

rsholland

If I'm still alive in 20 years, let pick up this conversation, and see who was right.

Bob

explorerx4

i don't have an m-3, but my neighbor does(lucky for me). life with an m-3 isn't as bad, as those comments from c & d sound. trust me on this.
look at this this way, either vehicle(bmw or subie) can go VERY FAST!

ballistic

It sure doesn't sound like BMW has lost confidence in him or his abilities.

If not, BMW top management is among the most myopic ever.

artists (or car designers, as in this case) have been damned many times over by their critics and peers in their own time, only to have history reverse those opinions.

Not the best ones.

If I'm still alive in 20 years, let pick up this conversation, and see who was right.

It won't take anywhere near that long for Bangle to be widely seen for what he is: Incompetent.

kcrudup

I agree completely. I see plenty of the new 7-series, and now the new 5-series (a couple of coworkers have the latter) on the roads here in SoCal; and perusing the BMW usenet group back when I was considering getting a 5-series, all the complaints appeared to be coming from a small group of old-timers.

designman

Rsholland, you inquired about my background. Here’s my deal. I am a graphic designer and creative director of a company that produces scientific communications in multimedia… web, video, print, slides. I have been in this profession for 29 years and you could say I am the Chris Bangle of my company. (I should bite my tongue on that one.) I also have a degree in engineering.
____________________

Rsholland, I guess we are both accusing each other of being blind. Given the little information we have regarding the machinations of corporate BMW, let’s just say the blind are leading the blind here. But I enjoy making predictions based on certain facts and my own intuition, especially the latter. And if it turns out I am wrong, I really don’t care. This is nothing more than cocktail conversation… I’ll have a Stoli Martini up, and I could care less whether it is shaken or stirred!

You said “...he [Bangle] has a broader canvas to deal with.”

I have to say I don’t know what you are talking about. According to what I have read, Bangle was the top gun up to this point... he had absolute power over all designers AND engineers, plus every vehicle that is produced by BMW. He got his charge directly from the Quandts and was hired by them to move the designs forward. Well, it doesn’t get any higher than this, and this is why I am calling his recent “promotion” a PR spin move that the average BMW client will buy... hook, line and sinker. It remains to be seen just how much power he will wield… I say very little.

We are just starting to see the effect that the Bangle babies (Rosemary’s babies) are having on BMW sales and it appears it is not good. Furthermore, there is fierce competition. A lot of lower-priced performance vehicles are becoming hot and BMW is not showing any signs of dealing with it. Cars like the G35 and TL are competing with the 525 and 530. Cadillac CTS-V is competing with the 545 and M5. Mitsubishi Evo and the Subaru Impreza performers are competing with the 3-series... XT with X3... S2000 and 350Z with Z4... the new crossovers with X5. BMW has moved into the future? Seems there’s a lot they didn’t consider.

With regard to the upcoming 1-series, I don’t know who in his right mind would buy one when you have Evo and WRXs, not to mention the STi in that price range... the performance comparisons will be a joke, not to mention that spy shots of the 1 show it to be even uglier than the 5. I don’t care how good the BMW ride is, they will now need more muscle, lower prices and better looking cars to compete.

Finally, we are 3 months into the release of the 5-series. Prices are already coming down and I have seen only eight of them on the road so far. There are more BMW dealers in my area than the number of 5-series cars I have seen on the road and I have a 60 mile daily commute in the heavily traveled New York City metropolitan area. Hot car? Where are they?

In the words of Bob Dylan, you don’t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. Sez here there is much consternation in the corporate offices of BMW right now, and by the time we see the follow-up to Bangle’s creations in two years or so, he will not be employed by BMW.

Bartender!! On second thought make that a double on the rocks… and buy a round on me!

;-)

rsholland

Sound like you and I are much alike in terms of background. I too am a graphic designer, and have been since 1972. I have my own business and also act as the Creative Director for a PR firm that focuses in the needs of senior citizens. I'm also a part-time instructor (3rd-year graphic design students) at Maryland Institute College of Art in Baltimore, and have been for about 10 years now.

So, even though we have similar backgrounds, we have vastly different takes on the Bangle situation. So even design-geeks can't agree on this guy...

As to:

You said “...he [Bangle] has a broader canvas to deal with.” I have to say I don’t know what you are talking about.
 
What I meant by this is before he was in charge of BMW design, now he's got that plus Rolls Royce, Mini, and whatever other divisions are involved. And since we're both involved in design at a senior level, we also know he most likely didn't do the actual designing himself, but rather offered inspiration and guidance to his staff. Most importantly, he was the guy who signed off on the designs, so he's the one to get the credit or blame. Now he's the one to approve or disapprove what ever the various design heads come up with. To be honest, I'm not sure if this is a new position with the BMW hierarchy, or not. I *think* it's a new position, but I really don't know.

Finally, as you well know, BMW owes much of their success to (excellent) design. I can't imagine for a moment that they would put him in the most senior level design position in that corporation, only to have him as a meaningless figurehead. If the guy is/was no good (or "incompetent" as JB is so fond of saying), you fire him, plain and simple. You don't promote him, even to save face.

Bob

mamgt

Boy, this Bangle guy sure is getting alot of ink (or posts) for doing such a lousy job, as some are suggesting. I guess they're right when they say there is no such thing as bad publicity.

stever

I didn't know it was called the Dilbert principle now.

Steve, Host

kdshapiro

"If cashing in on legal loopholes wasn't bad enough to date, Subaru is about to set a new standard for low moral behavior. Subaru is going to have its 2004 Outback sedan (sedan, not even the wagon!) certified as a truck.

Who gains?

The Subaru customers? They get a car which has been jacked up for no reason other than to meet truck definitions: poorer handling and more prone to rollovers.
Society? We get a car which pollutes more and uses more fuel, because Subaru's fleet no longer will meet the car CAFE standards. And it has no more "truck" qualities than it ever had before.
The only winners in all of this are Subaru's bean counters. They can sell dirtier, less fuel efficient cars by simply labeling them as trucks, and not have to pay the penalties when their CAFE average drops lower."

ballistic

Suggesting that the reclassified vehicles Subaru will sell will "pollute more and use more fuel", i.e. "be dirtier, less fuel efficient" than those same vehicles were before the reclassification is preposterous. Subaru will not alter the engines of these newly-classified trucks to intentionally make them "dirtier" or "less fuel efficient". Anyone who thinks otherwise is, well, simply not thinking.

The villian here, if there is one, is a Congress that imposed a set of ridiculously arbitrary, capricious, swiss-cheese rules onto automakers in the first place. It is difficult to fault a carmaker that aligns its products to meet the Congress's requirements in the most advantageous manner.

mark_lp

Are you saying that Subaru is changing the actual ground clearance of the Outback or just reclassifying it?

ateixeira

Both. Ground clearance is now 8.4-8.7", more than all the so-called "SUVs" here.

The 2.5l engine that will come in most Outback is PZEV rated, and now it'll actually be available in 5 states instead of just CA. The 2.5l and H6 engines will be more efficient than before, with the vehicle losing 180 lbs.

CAFE is antiquated and was written to exempt FLEET COMMERCIAL vehicles from car standards, not SUVs. So other manufacturers have been abusing this loophole all along, Subaru finally jumped on the band wagon to compete on level surface.

As for the "more prone to rollovers" comment, that's just absurb. Outback got 4 stars in the NHTSA ratings, only the Pontiac Aztek matched that. I seriously doubt any SUVs will do better, they get 2-3 stars.

Is it fair that the BMW 5 series with the V8 pays gas guzzler taxes, while the X5 with the same engine doesn't? The X5 is actually less efficient. And don't even tell me you're tackling the Rubicon, puh-lease.

-juice

ateixeira

Bob: you're on. We'll meet at a pub in 2024 and if these aren't the Dark Ages of BMW Design I'll gladly be buying. Anyone else here is welcome, too.

I don't consider that bet risky at all!

I think we see cycles in design, square (Caprice #1 seller), then round (Taurus), then square (Camry), then round (new Camry & Accord). Right now I think square is making a come back, look at Cadillac Art & Science, Scion xB, Element, Ford New Edge, etc.

OK, so Bangle wanted something truly new. He came up with "Flame Surfacing", a fancy phrase for concave panels with creased intersections. But even that's been done before, look at the current Celica.

I can accept the concave panels, but it's the hunckbacks that are detached from the rest of his designs. There is no consistency.

But the proof is in all his excuses. People have gotten bigger and they carry more stuff. I don't see other designers coming up with these excuses, Jags and Benzes look better than ever!

-juice

designman

The most sickening thing about the Bangle babies is that there is plagiarism all over the place... bits and pieces of motifs we've seen before. The most original themes we see are in the sides of the Z4 and the fatuous headlights of the 5-series. Even a good artist knows how to emulate or "borrow" appropriately. I agree with ballistic. A case could be made for calling Bangle incompetent. He's shooting in the dark.

ateixeira

The side of the Z4 looks like the Celica, with the concave surfaces. So even that isn't really original.

I hate the eye lashes on the new 5, totally Dame Edna. I called it even before Autoweek did a Body Double features on their BWTM page (twice, actually).

-juice

ballistic

The minority of Bangle admirers persist in opining that he and his cluttered, obnoxious designs will eventually be vindicated. These folks likes to say that top designers are often criticized in their own time, and that it's only later that their true genius is recognized and rewarded.

Rubbish. The lovely BMW 507 roadster was and is universally acclaimed...not only decades later, but instantly, when it first appeared. It didn't take 50 years, or 5, or even 5 weeks for it and its gifted designer, Albrecht Goertz, to be showered with awards and acclaim. His 507 design was immediately hailed as among the best of all time. That's what happens when truly brilliant automotive designers work their magic.

Bangle's horrid, gut-wrenchingly-ugly products are not even from the same universe. The passage of time, far from reversing current widely-held negative reactions, will affirm them.

ateixeira

So, how do you really feel JB? I mean, you're being slightly vague....

;-)

-juice

tidester

Some people are just way too reluctant to share their opinions! ;-)

tidester, host

ballistic

As a measure of his greatness, his brilliant BMW 507 design was far from a one-time flash in the pan.

He also worked with Raymond Loewy on the revolutionary 1953 Studebaker Starlight coupe.

And he did the the original Datsun 240Z. No subsequent Datsun/Nissan Z car has approached its excellence.

Outstanding Goertz designs all.

ateixeira

Well, even the fine italian studios have their occasional flops. But usually it's not a pattern of them, like Bangle, which is why I think he draws so much controversy.

-juice

ballistic

Occasional flops are probably unavoidable. Deliberately uglifying an entire fleet of vehicles just for the sake of self-aggrandizement and "being different" is something else altogether.

ballistic

As a counterpoint to the sundry Bangle defenders, how many auto designs/designers can you name who have actually inspired petitions aimed at blocking further examples of the same mediocrity?

I just ran across this one; there may well be others.

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?STOPCB

ballistic

Ran across the following quote:

"If I was to pick a single fault with these designs [Bangle's], its gotta be the thickness of the rear flanks .... is it possible that Chris Bangle is obsessed with Jennifer Lopez?"

ballistic

Posted without comment, as they say...

BMW's styling department has been plunged into turmoil this week after boss Chris Bangle realised that he has spent the last ten years designing cars with the wrong hand. 'This is quite a surprise,' said one insider (in German). 'Ever since he started working here Chris used his right hand to sketch design themes, operate CAD/CAM units and so forth. It was only during a game of rounders with some of the large car exterior design team from Audi that Chris went to catch the ball and suddenly realised the strange truth; he's actually left handed.'
Bangle's sudden discovery explains much of the wonky lines and unusual angles seen on recent BMWs, but in a modern car company no one man styles every car. So how does the bespectacled designer's dexterity error explain the look of, say, the new 6-series? 'It's quite simple,' explained our Munich mole (in German, still). 'Young designers began to copy Chris's inadvertently wonky style and, with the incomprehensible writing that resulted from his wrong-hand usage, his disapproving notes about their work were misunderstood. So, in the case of the 6-series, Chris scribbled "This is a Pontiac coupe!" on the concept sketches but the designer mis-read it as "This is a perfect coupe!" and carried on until it was too late.'

rsholland

The minority of Bangle admirers persist in opining that he and his cluttered, obnoxious designs will eventually be vindicated. These folks likes to say that top designers are often criticized in their own time, and that it's only later that their true genius is recognized and rewarded.

Rubbish.

The coffin-nose Cord and Chrysler/Dodge/Desoto Airflows of the 1930s were utter failures in their era. Most people hated the designs of those cars back then. Today are regarded as landmark car designs.

As to Bangle, I am neither a supporter or hater of the guy and his design. There is some stuff of his I like, and some stuff of his I don't care for.

Bob

ateixeira

OK, no fair, you're going back to way before I was even born. ;-)

-juice

rsholland

No excuse! They were made before I was born too!!

Bob

ateixeira

REALLY!?

LOL

Just teasing...

Design is tricky, I'll admit. Whatever is fashionable in its day can look very dated two decades later. It's very hard to create a timeless design, which makes you appreciate them even more.

-juice

rsholland

Whatever is fashionable in its day can look very dated two decades later.

What looks wrong today, may look right tomorrow. A lot of it has to do with timing, and what is considered acceptable at the moment.

Bob

ateixeira

Well, you look at something like the Ferarri Daytona, which is timeless IMO, and then a Testarossa, which kinda looks cartoonish today, and you wonder how could you tell?

But I doubt the Daytona was ridiculed in its day.

To me a truly great design is beautiful immediately, it shoud not have to grow on you. Yet it also stands the test of time.

A high standard, I know.

-juice

rsholland

with all the people who hate Bangle's design here, you're all going to have a field day when the new face of Subaru debuts next year on the crossover!

Maybe not juice, but I can't wait to hear JB's comments...

On second thought, maybe I can wait.

Bob

ateixeira

I love Alfas that were launched under Zapatinas' reign. If you look back the best looking Bimmers were also created under his leadership.

Sure, the new Subaru face looks like an Alfa grille turned upside down, but I'll take it, any day!

Ironically, the new Subaru face appears to have an "A" in the middle...

-juice