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BMW X3 vs Subaru Forester XT vs Infiniti FX 35 vs Toyota RAV4
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All three of these are appallingly ugly, so it's not credit GM deserves, it's ridicule and villification.
Ugly or not, in terms of pure marketing and sales, it was a HUGE success.
Scion xB demand is exceeding supply, and its demographics make them the 14th youngest of any vehicle on the market. That was exactly Toyota's goal, bring in young buyers.
But for GM to claim credit for both, when its own sales flopped? PR Spin at its best.
-juice
"Maybe the 15-17 year olds know something you Subaru owners ought to learn, BMW doesn't have these problems"
Yeah, keep believing that your beloved BMW's are perfect. Care to guess how many recalls the X5 has scored?
You will have to deliver a lot of papers every week to make up for the price difference between the STi and the M3 that you seem to want to compare.
I do find it interesting that BMW offers 4 years of free maintenance, uses high quality synthetic oils, and still manages to score not-so-well in reliability surveys despite this best service/best consumables strategy.
It would be a concern for me as a buyer if I kept it beyong those 4 years, to be honest.
-juice
As far as BMW showing signs of recovery from this mess, it's already under way... very early in the game, but at least there's a sign.
WRX/STi Vs BMW M3 by scotth6 -
- May want to read Car and Driver's write up of the M3 for comparison. They bashed it as well.
This included:
- Side molding falling off
- A ride only a hardcore driver could love
- Not starting in cold weather.
- Needing expensive BMW oil for oil changes ($9 a quart!).
- Does not come with leather seats (option) for $50K+ price tag.
- In terms of the STi, for its handling prowelness, it is said to have a more compliant ride than some of its competitors. Of course if you want an even more compliant and quiet ride, you can always go with just a WRX, which is about as fast as a 330i ZHP addition (10+ hp and 6-speed)
http://www.cardesignnews.com/news/2004/040209bmw-design/index.htm- - - l
It sure doesn't sound like BMW has lost confidence in him or his abilities.
Bob
The problem is that sales are horrible, his vision was horrible, and they have to plan a future while selling the junk they already have. Not only that, there is fierce competition. This year is going to be a circus with BMW and man, are they going to take a beating in the press and on the spreadsheets. It's just beginning to show.
Bob
BMW will spin this many ways, but I believe Bangle will now be a stuffed suit at meetings, a figurehead to sell the cars they are stuck with for the next couple of years... more title, less power. Called it what you want... he’s been neutered.
Even when he was in charge of BMW cars, he didn't ink the drawings. His staff did, under his guidance. It's no different now, only now he has a broader canvas to deal with. Besides, the guy who replaced Bangle, is reportedly a loyal follower of the Bangle school of design. So I don't expect big changes in the looks of future BMWs. It will probably be just an extension of what Bangle has done before.
To suggest that he's now just a figurehead with no power is shortsighted at best.
Bob
Remember, the guy responsible for the Aztek was also promoted. Maybe they figure they'll do less harm there, i.e. the Dilbert Principle.
-juice
We don't have the advantage of time on our side, so predicting how Bangle will be viewed in a historical context is risky at best. As I've said before, artists (or car designers, as in this case) have been damned many times over by their critics and peers in their own time, only to have history reverse those opinions.
Now let me also be clear in that I'm not so much the fan of Bangle, as you all may think. I just don't think he's the "designer from hell" that you all make him out to be. Remember, I come at this from a different perspective than most* of you here. I've spent 30+ years in design, so I understand what it's like to be a designer and to have new ideas that meet resistance. It goes with the turf.
* = Not sure what profession designman is in, other than I assume that it's *design* related. Even so, not all designers agree on what's good or bad design.
Bob
Bob
look at this this way, either vehicle(bmw or subie) can go VERY FAST!
If not, BMW top management is among the most myopic ever.
artists (or car designers, as in this case) have been damned many times over by their critics and peers in their own time, only to have history reverse those opinions.
Not the best ones.
If I'm still alive in 20 years, let pick up this conversation, and see who was right.
It won't take anywhere near that long for Bangle to be widely seen for what he is: Incompetent.
____________________
Rsholland, I guess we are both accusing each other of being blind. Given the little information we have regarding the machinations of corporate BMW, let’s just say the blind are leading the blind here. But I enjoy making predictions based on certain facts and my own intuition, especially the latter. And if it turns out I am wrong, I really don’t care. This is nothing more than cocktail conversation I’ll have a Stoli Martini up, and I could care less whether it is shaken or stirred!
You said “...he [Bangle] has a broader canvas to deal with.”
I have to say I don’t know what you are talking about. According to what I have read, Bangle was the top gun up to this point... he had absolute power over all designers AND engineers, plus every vehicle that is produced by BMW. He got his charge directly from the Quandts and was hired by them to move the designs forward. Well, it doesn’t get any higher than this, and this is why I am calling his recent “promotion” a PR spin move that the average BMW client will buy... hook, line and sinker. It remains to be seen just how much power he will wield I say very little.
We are just starting to see the effect that the Bangle babies (Rosemary’s babies) are having on BMW sales and it appears it is not good. Furthermore, there is fierce competition. A lot of lower-priced performance vehicles are becoming hot and BMW is not showing any signs of dealing with it. Cars like the G35 and TL are competing with the 525 and 530. Cadillac CTS-V is competing with the 545 and M5. Mitsubishi Evo and the Subaru Impreza performers are competing with the 3-series... XT with X3... S2000 and 350Z with Z4... the new crossovers with X5. BMW has moved into the future? Seems there’s a lot they didn’t consider.
With regard to the upcoming 1-series, I don’t know who in his right mind would buy one when you have Evo and WRXs, not to mention the STi in that price range... the performance comparisons will be a joke, not to mention that spy shots of the 1 show it to be even uglier than the 5. I don’t care how good the BMW ride is, they will now need more muscle, lower prices and better looking cars to compete.
Finally, we are 3 months into the release of the 5-series. Prices are already coming down and I have seen only eight of them on the road so far. There are more BMW dealers in my area than the number of 5-series cars I have seen on the road and I have a 60 mile daily commute in the heavily traveled New York City metropolitan area. Hot car? Where are they?
In the words of Bob Dylan, you don’t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. Sez here there is much consternation in the corporate offices of BMW right now, and by the time we see the follow-up to Bangle’s creations in two years or so, he will not be employed by BMW.
Bartender!! On second thought make that a double on the rocks and buy a round on me!
;-)
So, even though we have similar backgrounds, we have vastly different takes on the Bangle situation. So even design-geeks can't agree on this guy...
As to:
You said “...he [Bangle] has a broader canvas to deal with.” I have to say I don’t know what you are talking about.
What I meant by this is before he was in charge of BMW design, now he's got that plus Rolls Royce, Mini, and whatever other divisions are involved. And since we're both involved in design at a senior level, we also know he most likely didn't do the actual designing himself, but rather offered inspiration and guidance to his staff. Most importantly, he was the guy who signed off on the designs, so he's the one to get the credit or blame. Now he's the one to approve or disapprove what ever the various design heads come up with. To be honest, I'm not sure if this is a new position with the BMW hierarchy, or not. I *think* it's a new position, but I really don't know.
Finally, as you well know, BMW owes much of their success to (excellent) design. I can't imagine for a moment that they would put him in the most senior level design position in that corporation, only to have him as a meaningless figurehead. If the guy is/was no good (or "incompetent" as JB is so fond of saying), you fire him, plain and simple. You don't promote him, even to save face.
Bob
Steve, Host
Who gains?
The Subaru customers? They get a car which has been jacked up for no reason other than to meet truck definitions: poorer handling and more prone to rollovers.
Society? We get a car which pollutes more and uses more fuel, because Subaru's fleet no longer will meet the car CAFE standards. And it has no more "truck" qualities than it ever had before.
The only winners in all of this are Subaru's bean counters. They can sell dirtier, less fuel efficient cars by simply labeling them as trucks, and not have to pay the penalties when their CAFE average drops lower."
The villian here, if there is one, is a Congress that imposed a set of ridiculously arbitrary, capricious, swiss-cheese rules onto automakers in the first place. It is difficult to fault a carmaker that aligns its products to meet the Congress's requirements in the most advantageous manner.
The 2.5l engine that will come in most Outback is PZEV rated, and now it'll actually be available in 5 states instead of just CA. The 2.5l and H6 engines will be more efficient than before, with the vehicle losing 180 lbs.
CAFE is antiquated and was written to exempt FLEET COMMERCIAL vehicles from car standards, not SUVs. So other manufacturers have been abusing this loophole all along, Subaru finally jumped on the band wagon to compete on level surface.
As for the "more prone to rollovers" comment, that's just absurb. Outback got 4 stars in the NHTSA ratings, only the Pontiac Aztek matched that. I seriously doubt any SUVs will do better, they get 2-3 stars.
Is it fair that the BMW 5 series with the V8 pays gas guzzler taxes, while the X5 with the same engine doesn't? The X5 is actually less efficient. And don't even tell me you're tackling the Rubicon, puh-lease.
-juice
I don't consider that bet risky at all!
I think we see cycles in design, square (Caprice #1 seller), then round (Taurus), then square (Camry), then round (new Camry & Accord). Right now I think square is making a come back, look at Cadillac Art & Science, Scion xB, Element, Ford New Edge, etc.
OK, so Bangle wanted something truly new. He came up with "Flame Surfacing", a fancy phrase for concave panels with creased intersections. But even that's been done before, look at the current Celica.
I can accept the concave panels, but it's the hunckbacks that are detached from the rest of his designs. There is no consistency.
But the proof is in all his excuses. People have gotten bigger and they carry more stuff. I don't see other designers coming up with these excuses, Jags and Benzes look better than ever!
-juice
I hate the eye lashes on the new 5, totally Dame Edna. I called it even before Autoweek did a Body Double features on their BWTM page (twice, actually).
-juice
Rubbish. The lovely BMW 507 roadster was and is universally acclaimed...not only decades later, but instantly, when it first appeared. It didn't take 50 years, or 5, or even 5 weeks for it and its gifted designer, Albrecht Goertz, to be showered with awards and acclaim. His 507 design was immediately hailed as among the best of all time. That's what happens when truly brilliant automotive designers work their magic.
Bangle's horrid, gut-wrenchingly-ugly products are not even from the same universe. The passage of time, far from reversing current widely-held negative reactions, will affirm them.
;-)
-juice
tidester, host
He also worked with Raymond Loewy on the revolutionary 1953 Studebaker Starlight coupe.
And he did the the original Datsun 240Z. No subsequent Datsun/Nissan Z car has approached its excellence.
Outstanding Goertz designs all.
-juice
I just ran across this one; there may well be others.
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?STOPCB
"If I was to pick a single fault with these designs [Bangle's], its gotta be the thickness of the rear flanks .... is it possible that Chris Bangle is obsessed with Jennifer Lopez?"
BMW's styling department has been plunged into turmoil this week after boss Chris Bangle realised that he has spent the last ten years designing cars with the wrong hand. 'This is quite a surprise,' said one insider (in German). 'Ever since he started working here Chris used his right hand to sketch design themes, operate CAD/CAM units and so forth. It was only during a game of rounders with some of the large car exterior design team from Audi that Chris went to catch the ball and suddenly realised the strange truth; he's actually left handed.'
Bangle's sudden discovery explains much of the wonky lines and unusual angles seen on recent BMWs, but in a modern car company no one man styles every car. So how does the bespectacled designer's dexterity error explain the look of, say, the new 6-series? 'It's quite simple,' explained our Munich mole (in German, still). 'Young designers began to copy Chris's inadvertently wonky style and, with the incomprehensible writing that resulted from his wrong-hand usage, his disapproving notes about their work were misunderstood. So, in the case of the 6-series, Chris scribbled "This is a Pontiac coupe!" on the concept sketches but the designer mis-read it as "This is a perfect coupe!" and carried on until it was too late.'
Rubbish.
The coffin-nose Cord and Chrysler/Dodge/Desoto Airflows of the 1930s were utter failures in their era. Most people hated the designs of those cars back then. Today are regarded as landmark car designs.
As to Bangle, I am neither a supporter or hater of the guy and his design. There is some stuff of his I like, and some stuff of his I don't care for.
Bob
-juice
Bob
LOL
Just teasing...
Design is tricky, I'll admit. Whatever is fashionable in its day can look very dated two decades later. It's very hard to create a timeless design, which makes you appreciate them even more.
-juice
What looks wrong today, may look right tomorrow. A lot of it has to do with timing, and what is considered acceptable at the moment.
Bob
But I doubt the Daytona was ridiculed in its day.
To me a truly great design is beautiful immediately, it shoud not have to grow on you. Yet it also stands the test of time.
A high standard, I know.
-juice
Maybe not juice, but I can't wait to hear JB's comments...
On second thought, maybe I can wait.
Bob
Sure, the new Subaru face looks like an Alfa grille turned upside down, but I'll take it, any day!
Ironically, the new Subaru face appears to have an "A" in the middle...
-juice