It has styling elements of the original 53 Corvette and the 56-57 Nomad.
It goes back earlier than that. The *original* Nomad was a 53-era Corvette show car with a wagon back, much like the current Nomad concept. The *production* 56-57 BelAir Nomad was inspired by that show car.
I hate to burst the bubble for you Bangel haters but BMW was just named the winner of the Automotive Lease Guide best residual value for 2004 models for a luxury brand. Not Lexus, not Infiniti and certainly not Subaru. The Mini Cooper won for the compact car catagory, funny no Subaru mentioned and no Infiniti listed. If Bangels designs are so bad why are the resale values so high. This is a fact, this is not the opinion of all you BMW haters. You people on this website may not like his designs but why are the current and projected resale values higher than Lexus? BMW provides a ride and feel like no other brand as well as great engines, good quality and good looks. I'm not saying that Subaru and Infiniti aren't good brands, they make good cars but quit bashing the looks of BMW. If BMW's were so bad looking the resale value would be terrible, obviously a lot more people like than looks than don't.
The Automotive Lease Guide Awards are PREDICTIONS, most of which are BASED ON THE PAST.
This is from the ALG website:
“ALG's annual Residual Value Awards honor those vehicles in each segment predicted to retain the highest percentage of their original price. This year's awards are based on 2004 model year vehicles. For the second year, ALG has also added awards for the brand with the highest predicted resale value of all industry and luxury vehicles. The awards are arrived at after careful study of segment competition, historical vehicle performance and industry trends.”
The monthly sales figures tell the real story. Just as no one can predict the financial markets accurately, ALG can’t predict car sales. This is as ridiculous as someone giving awards for the future performance of stocks. It’s merely a guide for insurance purposes and those who create residual values for leasing and such.
I’ll stick with my own predictions. BMW is in for a rough ride and the Bangle designs will be flops. The E65 7-series already is. It’s heavily discounted and has a horrible resale value. I originally thought the X3 would be the only one to do well. However I've changed my mind on this. In any event, it's the BMW vehicles preceding the Bangle designs that have put BMW on top with regard to resale rankings.
Could it be that your intense hatred for Bangle is blurring your vision about anything and everything BMW? You are certainly entitled to your opinion (and by the way, I totally agree with you on the Nomad), but have you seen the new 6 series ON THE ROAD? Just saw one today, and wow, that (BANGLE) car is absolutely stunning--from shape to fit and finish. I would bet that if Bangle were to design something that looked like the Nomad, you would instantly hate that car as well. Right or wrong?
When is this going to get back on topic of comparing the subject cars? I guess I'll have to go test drive an X3 and FX (I've driven three XTs) and do it for myself.
I don’t see how I could not respond to that ALG post. It's specious.
I have no hatred of Bangle I just dislike most of the cars that come as result of his influence. I actually find his situation to be intriguing. What's more, I am one of the few who is willing to defend the design of the Aztek.
I have been a BMW fan for a long time. Waited a whole year for the 04 530 but bought an 03 instead. This had nothing to do with Bangle, only the cars at hand. What winds up in my garage is the most important thing I could care less which hand the car comes from.
I agree that the new 6-series is the most pleasing design to come from Bangle’s reign. It’s ruined again by the trunk and is slightly bloated in appearance but is very shapely nonetheless. I also like the interior. I find the car acceptable... would even consider buying it.
And I have news for you, if sales show Bangle cars to be a success, I will have no problem mitigating my crowing with three simple words... I was wrong. Come September much of this story will have been written, so it won't be long before we see how the cards fall.
I agree with designman - I own a BMW and a Subaru. I'll give a real-world example of why I think BMW's high resale isn't assured anymore.
My 01 X5 has held it's resale extremely well, the simple reason BMW's hold their value is it's next to impossible to get a discount off MSRP. BMW rarely offers dealer incentives to move cars which translates into higher resale values.
When I leased my X5 in 01 my BMW dealer had few cars in stock, I chose from 3 available X5's. There were a couple Z3's on the lot, a decent selection of 3's, a few 5's and 7's back in 01. I also purchased an 01 M3 which I had to wait 6 months for. This dealer never had much of an inventory on hand.
I always take a walk through their back lot when I'm there for service - now they have a huge row of Z4's, several 7 series, a few 5's, a typical number of 3's and X5's and a bunch of M3 coupes and drop tops.
It appears anything that's been hit with the Bangle stick will not enjoy traditional BMW resale value.
Resale values are based off MSRP. If the average BMW sells for 95% of MSRP (which seems reasonable), and the average Lexus sells for 90% of MSRP (which also seems reasonable), real world resale values of Lexus (59%) are higher than BMW's (57%).
But as has been pointed out, these are just estimates.
These estimates are based on residuals for leasing vehicles. The reason that BMWs fare well with residuals is their ability to fetch top dollar in the used CPO market.
This has little to do with the individual sale, where the price paid is a function of the vehicle condition, the willingness of the seller to part with the vehicle, the willingness of the buyer to acquire the vehicle at a particular price point, and most importantly the skills of the respective people during negotiation. Or saying it another way, the "asis" nature of the sale, changes the price points.
I'd like to see a breakdown of BMW resale by model. I think some BMW models are above 54% and some are below. For example 7 series always take a huge depreciation hit, where 3 series hold up much better.
I just did an analysis of my 01 X5, it's held up much better than 54%. It had a sticker of $46k when it was new and according to Edmunds it's worth $36k+ private sale now and $38k+ dealer and $39k certified. I looked at Autotrader's website and saw that nice low mileage 01 X5 3.0's are going for high 30's to even low $40's. Mine is in perfect condition with low miles, it's in the sunbelt so it's never seen snow, not a nick or a scratch on it.
It was one month ago today when this place caught fire. Not one post yesterday. Aye! What's happening?!!
Been seeing a lot of FXs recently. They've been reminding me of something ever since I first saw one, but I couldn't put my finger on it. The image finally came together... Sumo wrestler! That said, they do have a certain panache and cleanliness to the lines. Not frumpy like the XT.
Saw an X3 on the open road for the first time yesterday. Looked quite normal an acceptable IMO, much better than the X5. Not as many of those "flamed" surfaces as Bangle likes to call them.
mamgt, I was studying the 6-series following our conversation. Hadn't seen it in about a month. Changed my mind... it's not that good. That trunk is as hideous as the 7. The smooth, shapely coupe tends to cover it up but the convertible is clunky.
Hey, what do you guys think of the Envoy. I read a bad review about two months ago, but that convertible rear really pushes a lot of my utility buttons. The upcoming Ford Freestyle will have it. Would like to see it on a Subie.
OK, using Edmunds tool, I checked the TCO for a Forester XT 5 speed, which is what I would be buying. TMV is $24,442, and after subtracting 5 years of depreciation the Forester still holds 45.9% of the original TMV. That beats BMW X3 and Infiniti FX, all models too.
Regionally, I can do much better than TMV. I can buy from fitzmall.com, a local no-haggle dealer, for about $23.3k, that would makes the numbers look even more favorable.
The ALG figures are misleading, because right now the CPO BMWs are the beautiful ones, pre-Bangle. So you are looking at not-so-hot hunch-backed new models and comparing them to the resale value of CPO gorgeous Bimmers from a different era.
Let's say BMW reverses its course and they get beautified next redesign. Then maybe 5 years from now you'd have gorgeous new models with Bangle cars in the CPO lot.
BMW resale values have to drop. We never saw them discount significantly until 03. And they're discounting even with new models now—unprecedented with them. Their platform diversification will perpetuate it even further. This is a new age for them in many ways.
"Saw an X3 on the open road for the first time yesterday. Looked quite normal an acceptable IMO"...
So...can I exchange that (acceptable) comment for your changing your mind on the 6 series?...that way I don't have to give back my drink. :-)
As for discounting new models...I have a feeling that because BMW is stepping up production, there may be more pressure to move cars. Also, this is really the first time since the economy tanked they have come out with this many new models. As you said, this is a new age for them. But isn't it also a new age for the other premium car companies like MB and Audi which face similar challenges?
BMW is advertising sales as increasing but that's only when you factor in Mini sales. Sales of existing models are down, I believe.
I do think the X3 will sell well, but some of that will come at the expense of the X5 and 3 series wagons.
Pricing is interesting, I noticed the X3 is actually cheaper than the 3 wagon, even cheaper than the RWD 3 wagon. The AWD wagon costs a lot more than the X3.
Well, sure, unit sales - but not revenues or net income. After all, they'd sell a billion Bimmers at $5K each (even with Bangle bodies!), but wouldn't make any profits.
You missed the point. If BMW has to discount the new models to move them, as seems to be happening on the ugly Bangle models, there go the vaunted high profit margins.
Saw another X3 on the road, I was next to him for a while. I think it's one of Bangle's least offensive designs. The lights front and back have some strange shapes, but overall it's OK, not nearly as bad as the hunch-backed sedans.
The panels are not as concave as on the newer sedans, so they didn't try so hard.
That Autoweek article is right on target - it raises the issue of some BMW models "cannibalizing" sales from other BMW models and raises the spectre of lower 5 series sales due to it's odd styling.
It appears the X5 is the #1 "cannibal" in the BMW fleet. The article infers that the facelifted X5 is stealing 5 series and X3 sales. The article said that BMW nearly ran out of X5's in December.
To find the article do a search on "too much too fast" and it'll pop right up.
Subies rule in the snow belt. Their market share in Vermont is 14 times what it is in sunny Florida. Those in the snow, know.
Consider that the XT gets heated seats standard, heated mirrors too. It even has wiper de-icers, not only in the front but also for the rear wiper. AWD and a rear viscous limited-slip differential are standard on every XT, so is ABS with 4 discs and EBD.
I don't think heated seats and mirrors are standard on the other two, and I'm not even sure they offer wiper de-icers.
What's missing is traction/stability control, though.
Portland received a foot of snow, plus a layer of frozen rain on top of that, together with low-mid teen temperatures that persisted for a week around New Years day. I live in a very hilly area, and my F-XT chewed through the accumulation in fine fashion, even though I'm still on the OEM Yoko Geolander all-season tires. I could not have been more impressed.
Audi, BMW, Merceds, Volvo, and now Infiniti all have a claim of their "Intelligent" AWD system. But it really seems that Subaru has the simplest yet most effective system. No need for fancy VSC, traction control systems when you have good traction from a great AWD system.
Car & Driver had a winter test last year with a Subaru, I think it was the Outback Impreza. They summed up their views by saying the Subie was the funnest and most predictable.
"No need for fancy VSC, traction control systems when you have good traction from a great AWD system."
Predicable doesn't mean safer. How do you know the safety of the record won't benefit with a bit of add high-tech safety. It's a safety margin, saying it doesn't need it is a bit short sited, and one day it could make a difference.
It's Olde English for Jack today. Goon and pleye hem al the longe day. So longe as it's on topic :-) Remember, the Knight is worthy; the Yeoman is a forester.
Steve, Host (This is topical since Chaucer was a Deputy Forester)
Subaru's VDC is among the best AWD on the market, with all the right ingredients: RWD bias, full-time nature, proactive power split, and the ability to send 100% power to any one wheel.
I'm not sure about the limitations of the BMW and Infiniti systems, can they send 100% of power to the front axle if necessary? FWIW, Audi's cannot, they can only send 67% of the power to either axle.
I think the Forester XT is worthy of the VDC AWD/traction/stability control system. Subaru should find a way to make it more affordable and put it on the Forester.
We are talking about diminishing returns, though. When the weather gets nasty with these three, it'll come down to which has the best suited tires.
Comments
It goes back earlier than that. The *original* Nomad was a 53-era Corvette show car with a wagon back, much like the current Nomad concept. The *production* 56-57 BelAir Nomad was inspired by that show car.
Bob
Lutz is the man! Bartender... a round on me!
;-)
I'm not saying that Subaru and Infiniti aren't good brands, they make good cars but quit bashing
the looks of BMW. If BMW's were so bad looking the resale value would be terrible, obviously a lot more people like than looks than don't.
This is from the ALG website:
“ALG's annual Residual Value Awards honor those vehicles in each segment predicted to retain the highest percentage of their original price. This year's awards are based on 2004 model year vehicles. For the second year, ALG has also added awards for the brand with the highest predicted resale value of all industry and luxury vehicles. The awards are arrived at after careful study of segment competition, historical vehicle performance and industry trends.”
The monthly sales figures tell the real story. Just as no one can predict the financial markets accurately, ALG can’t predict car sales. This is as ridiculous as someone giving awards for the future performance of stocks. It’s merely a guide for insurance purposes and those who create residual values for leasing and such.
I’ll stick with my own predictions. BMW is in for a rough ride and the Bangle designs will be flops. The E65 7-series already is. It’s heavily discounted and has a horrible resale value. I originally thought the X3 would be the only one to do well. However I've changed my mind on this. In any event, it's the BMW vehicles preceding the Bangle designs that have put BMW on top with regard to resale rankings.
Ed
I have no hatred of Bangle I just dislike most of the cars that come as result of his influence. I actually find his situation to be intriguing. What's more, I am one of the few who is willing to defend the design of the Aztek.
I have been a BMW fan for a long time. Waited a whole year for the 04 530 but bought an 03 instead. This had nothing to do with Bangle, only the cars at hand. What winds up in my garage is the most important thing I could care less which hand the car comes from.
I agree that the new 6-series is the most pleasing design to come from Bangle’s reign. It’s ruined again by the trunk and is slightly bloated in appearance but is very shapely nonetheless. I also like the interior. I find the car acceptable... would even consider buying it.
And I have news for you, if sales show Bangle cars to be a success, I will have no problem mitigating my crowing with three simple words... I was wrong. Come September much of this story will have been written, so it won't be long before we see how the cards fall.
Bob
Bob
Bingo. I'll drink to that, if the round is still on you. Next one on me.
Now back to topic....
My 01 X5 has held it's resale extremely well, the simple reason BMW's hold their value is it's next to impossible to get a discount off MSRP. BMW rarely offers dealer incentives to move cars which translates into higher resale values.
When I leased my X5 in 01 my BMW dealer had few cars in stock, I chose from 3 available X5's. There were a couple Z3's on the lot, a decent selection of 3's, a few 5's and 7's back in 01. I also purchased an 01 M3 which I had to wait 6 months for. This dealer never had much of an inventory on hand.
I always take a walk through their back lot when I'm there for service - now they have a huge row of Z4's, several 7 series, a few 5's, a typical number of 3's and X5's and a bunch of M3 coupes and drop tops.
It appears anything that's been hit with the Bangle stick will not enjoy traditional BMW resale value.
1) BMW: 54.5%
2) Lexus: 53.2%
3) Acura: 52.1%
4) MB: 52%
5) Audi: 51.2%
6) Infiniti: 51.1%
Resale values are based off MSRP. If the average BMW sells for 95% of MSRP (which seems reasonable), and the average Lexus sells for 90% of MSRP (which also seems reasonable), real world resale values of Lexus (59%) are higher than BMW's (57%).
But as has been pointed out, these are just estimates.
This has little to do with the individual sale, where the price paid is a function of the vehicle condition, the willingness of the seller to part with the vehicle, the willingness of the buyer to acquire the vehicle at a particular price point, and most importantly the skills of the respective people during negotiation. Or saying it another way, the "asis" nature of the sale, changes the price points.
FX35: 43%
X5 3.0: 45%
FX45: 44%
X5 4.4: 43%
I just did an analysis of my 01 X5, it's held up much better than 54%. It had a sticker of $46k when it was new and according to Edmunds it's worth $36k+ private sale now and $38k+ dealer and $39k certified. I looked at Autotrader's website and saw that nice low mileage 01 X5 3.0's are going for high 30's to even low $40's. Mine is in perfect condition with low miles, it's in the sunbelt so it's never seen snow, not a nick or a scratch on it.
Steve, Host
Been seeing a lot of FXs recently. They've been reminding me of something ever since I first saw one, but I couldn't put my finger on it. The image finally came together... Sumo wrestler! That said, they do have a certain panache and cleanliness to the lines. Not frumpy like the XT.
Saw an X3 on the open road for the first time yesterday. Looked quite normal an acceptable IMO, much better than the X5. Not as many of those "flamed" surfaces as Bangle likes to call them.
mamgt, I was studying the 6-series following our conversation. Hadn't seen it in about a month. Changed my mind... it's not that good. That trunk is as hideous as the 7. The smooth, shapely coupe tends to cover it up but the convertible is clunky.
Hey, what do you guys think of the Envoy. I read a bad review about two months ago, but that convertible rear really pushes a lot of my utility buttons. The upcoming Ford Freestyle will have it. Would like to see it on a Subie.
Regionally, I can do much better than TMV. I can buy from fitzmall.com, a local no-haggle dealer, for about $23.3k, that would makes the numbers look even more favorable.
The ALG figures are misleading, because right now the CPO BMWs are the beautiful ones, pre-Bangle. So you are looking at not-so-hot hunch-backed new models and comparing them to the resale value of CPO gorgeous Bimmers from a different era.
Let's say BMW reverses its course and they get beautified next redesign. Then maybe 5 years from now you'd have gorgeous new models with Bangle cars in the CPO lot.
Anyone want to bet residual values will drop?
That's the safest bet I've ever made.
-juice
The look is great, would buy one in a second.
So...can I exchange that (acceptable) comment for your changing your mind on the 6 series?...that way I don't have to give back my drink. :-)
As for discounting new models...I have a feeling that because BMW is stepping up production, there may be more pressure to move cars. Also, this is really the first time since the economy tanked they have come out with this many new models. As you said, this is a new age for them. But isn't it also a new age for the other premium car companies like MB and Audi which face similar challenges?
Huge difference. Audi continues to build beautiful cars. BMW has taken leave of its collective senses.
;-)
I do think the X3 will sell well, but some of that will come at the expense of the X5 and 3 series wagons.
Pricing is interesting, I noticed the X3 is actually cheaper than the 3 wagon, even cheaper than the RWD 3 wagon. The AWD wagon costs a lot more than the X3.
So price alone will boost sales.
-juice
Well, sure, unit sales - but not revenues or net income. After all, they'd sell a billion Bimmers at $5K each (even with Bangle bodies!), but wouldn't make any profits.
I find that rather funny. Most automakers charge more for the SUV.
-juice
www.autoweek.com
I guess nothing is ever just black or white. Let the feeding begin.
The panels are not as concave as on the newer sedans, so they didn't try so hard.
-juice
It appears the X5 is the #1 "cannibal" in the BMW fleet. The article infers that the facelifted X5 is stealing 5 series and X3 sales. The article said that BMW nearly ran out of X5's in December.
To find the article do a search on "too much too fast" and it'll pop right up.
Check out the BMW 1 series thread for some pics of that model. I have mixed feelings about that model, but it's not nearly as bad as the hunch-backs.
-juice
It's sort of a BMW vs Subaru race at the moment, with BMW leading. Here are the most recent standings of the overall leaders:
1. BMW X3
2. BMW 325ix
3. Subaru Forester XT
4. Subaru STi
5. Subaru Baja turbo
http://www.challengedriving.com/
If you follow the links on that site, there are some great firsthand accounts of what it's like.
Bob
I don't think that's necessarily bad, surely the X5 is more profitable for them.
-juice
Consider that the XT gets heated seats standard, heated mirrors too. It even has wiper de-icers, not only in the front but also for the rear wiper. AWD and a rear viscous limited-slip differential are standard on every XT, so is ABS with 4 discs and EBD.
I don't think heated seats and mirrors are standard on the other two, and I'm not even sure they offer wiper de-icers.
What's missing is traction/stability control, though.
-juice
Stopping at Toke Junction must have been a hit too, lol. (It's really spelled Tok, but knowing Alaska, the alternate spelling isn't too far off).
Steve, Host
Bob
Car & Driver had a winter test last year with a Subaru, I think it was the Outback Impreza. They summed up their views by saying the Subie was the funnest and most predictable.
Predicable doesn't mean safer. How do you know the safety of the record won't benefit with a bit of add high-tech safety. It's a safety margin, saying it doesn't need it is a bit short sited, and one day it could make a difference.
Some of the bigger SUVs with a higher C.G. than the Impreza greatly benefit from an "intelligent" AWD system. Even Consumerreports has confirmed this.
Please tell me that the writers and editors of Car & Driver didn't really use the non-word "funnest".
It's odd that Merriam-Webster has an entry for it listing it as an inflected form of fun. :-)
tidester, host
It's Olde English for Jack today. Goon and pleye hem al the longe day. So longe as it's on topic :-) Remember, the Knight is worthy; the Yeoman is a forester.
Steve, Host
(This is topical since Chaucer was a Deputy Forester)
I'm not sure about the limitations of the BMW and Infiniti systems, can they send 100% of power to the front axle if necessary? FWIW, Audi's cannot, they can only send 67% of the power to either axle.
I think the Forester XT is worthy of the VDC AWD/traction/stability control system. Subaru should find a way to make it more affordable and put it on the Forester.
We are talking about diminishing returns, though. When the weather gets nasty with these three, it'll come down to which has the best suited tires.
-juice