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Luxury Performance Sedans



  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    it is way too broad of a generalzation to judge a whole auto company by an experience at a particular dealer.

    Definitely so. But for me personally, having read some of the horror stories on this board over the past week or so has given me pause. I used to think that reliability was the main issue in the way of my buying MB, but now I really have to think about the dealer experience and how any potential problems are dealt with (or not dealt with). I'm sure that some MB dealers are better than others, but I think that survey data suggest that my probability of having a bad experience are greater with an MB dealer than with say a Lexus dealer. Something I'm going to keep in mind for the future.
  • docnukemdocnukem Posts: 485
    Now my bad! I should've known Lexus would've picked a classic.
  • cmybimmergocmybimmergo Posts: 265
    Oh sure, go ahead. Make us all look bad. sheesh There's one in every crowd.
  • richcreamrichcream Posts: 205,,12529-1600870,00.html

    This is one harsh review.
    The ethnocentric (bordering on racist) commentary is reminiscent of the British mindset from the days when they had an empire.

    And what does this guy expect the reaction to "British cuisine" to be other than revulsion?...that poor girl.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Have you driven the M45? Clements went on and on doing a great impression of Bob Lutz, about how the GS was going to finally be a 5 killer from Lexus. Then they saddled the GS430 with the most agressive stability control system in their history, and NO off switch of any kind.

    "As soon as the system senses the front tires sliding, which happens when you're driving a car quickly, the system basically shuts the car down. A few times during one particular canyon run the car actually came to a literal stop in a few very slow, very tight corners. No fun." -Edmunds

    That was from one of the few reviews that was generally positive about the GS430. Most of the others have been either mixed or negative. In the "sports" part of sports sedan, the M45 walks all over the GS.

    Rich, I've seen that article. He spends literally the first half of the article literally saying "I HATE JAPAN". I'm willing to bet he would hate the M45 just as much.
  • commofficercommofficer Posts: 50
    I'm okay thanks. Training my replacements now. It is a huge mess over here. I hope the rest of the troops get to return soon.

    I can't wait to go look and test drive cars when I get home. I have been told by my wife, that I need to get something that gets good mileage. That sort of puts a damper on this but I can fudge a little by using EPA estimates. They always seem to be better than what the cars really get.

    Capt. Phil
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,343
    I'm not quite as convinced that this review was racist, I am almost convinced that there was no intention to be thus.

    I have been to England many times -- they say (whoever they are) that the Brits and the Americans are 96% the same, but that the 4% is huge (this article surely demonstrates that.)

    Now, since I would not personally say I thought this was in any way intentionally "racist" (besides aren't we all members of the HUMAN race?) I also must say that I thought some parts of this review were hilarious.

    I have nothing against the Brits or the Japanese -- but can't we have a laugh from time to time and not jump to the conclusion that things like this are anything other than "quirky?"

    I did not sense he was saying "the west is best" or that the east is somehow lame. I did sense he was saying things are different and that he, personally, may prefer mashed potatoes to sushi. One of the folks I work with won't eat anything that ever had "eyes" -- I asked her if that included potatoes; she certainly seemed to think that was silly (and she laughed).

    She's from India.

    Her husband, on the other hand, can't seem to get enough meat regardless of where it once inhabited (land or sea).

    I focussed on his comments on the car -- in his own way, he echoed the sentiments of Car & Driver.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    I drove the 545, GS 430 and M45. Two of them were satisfying drives.
    The GS handles very well and most people would be quite satisfied with its power, very good steering and cornering. As a BMW owner, I was impressed. If you drive the autobahn and take curves at 80 mph, then the GS is not your car since its electronic aids will kick in and prevent you from achieving your goals. This car was my favorite of the 3.
    The M45 sport handled great too but its raspy engine noise when accelerating hard proved annoying. I also found its suspension quite jolting. It was a lot of fun to drive. I took a curve quite fast and was impressed at how quickly the car recovered and achieved stable straight line motion. But I think as an everyday vehicle, the novelty would quickly wear off.
    The 545 was least impressive probably because it had the annoying active steering. Its acceleration and suspension were great but I could corner better with my 325. I also found the dash intimidating.
    I drove my brother-in-law's 2003 530i(the car CR gushed as being as close to perfect a car as their measurements allowed) last year and also came away unimpressed-the steering wasn't sharp and I didn't find the car very stable through the turns.
    I will drive the new 330i next and as long as I don't look at the rear end, I should be okay. This one may be the answer but given BMW's decline in reliability, who knows what's in store with this new model.
    G-d help us!
    In closing, let me say that both Infiniti and BMW have very high residuals and decent money factors for the M45 and 545 for those who lease. Not so for Lexus and the GS. One can get a better leasing deal nowadays on the LS since one can negotiate 10-12% off MSRP.
  • ram4ram4 Posts: 2
    i have narrowed down my choice to these two cars. like the nav in rl but the rear camera in the lexus. the acura lease is about 725 - 750 for 4 years and the lexus is around 800. any thoughts have others compared the the acura as much fun. the lexus name and reliability and the service may be a plus. any suggestions welcome
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Interesting. I didnt have those issues with my M45 tester. I cant explain the engine noise, but perhaps your tester's tires were over-inflated? That seems to be a problem that a lot of people are having with Ms, and causes a rougher than normal ride.

    What do you think of the 2006 IS350?
  • cmybimmergocmybimmergo Posts: 265
    Does your BIL's 530 have the sport package? e39 530s are a joy to drive, and I love how mine (02) corners. If my front passenger seat weren't inhabited by unsecured paraphernalia, I'd probably go faster through the turns.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    I will try and drive both the GS430 and the M45 again and see if my impressions change.
    I would like to try the IS 350 also but I only have 'til the middle of July to make a decision.
    The salesman showed me the tire pressure data(which I thought was pretty neat) for the M45 I was driving and one tire was slightly under, the others were fine.
    Some time this upcoming week I will visit my friendly inflated money factoring BMW dealer to try the new 330i.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    No sports package and there could lie the problem.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    What will probably eliminate the M for me is the alarming number of posters on the M thread who are complaining of strange noises and smells. Poor gas mileage too. I have yet to see one complaint from any 2006 GS owner regarding the above.
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    A couple of things. No way your 325 outhandles the 545. I had the 330xi before the 545 and the 545 can run circles around it. I realize that active steering takes some getting used to, but at higher speeds it's nearly impossible to tell the difference between it and standard steering. The difference is most evident at lower speeds. The dash was "intimidating"? Interesting. I don't think a dashboard has ever scared me before. As far as reliability goes, from what I can tell the E60 has been a pretty reliable new model release. There were some recalls right when it first came out, but I haven't heard anything about reliability issues with it in a while. Remember, you can't compare a newly released model to a model at the end of its lifecycle. You would expect the old 5 to be more reliable since it was around for a long time so they had time to work out the kinks. The E60 is really only in its second year.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 70,682
    You can't really compare a 330xi to a 325i with sport package.. The 330xi is a big pig in comparison (no offense to 330xi owners, it stilll outhandles 90% of other cars)...

    The 545i might be faster than the 325i... but, not better handling.. The only way it can run rings around a 325i sport, is in a straight line... ;)



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  • drtraveldrtravel Posts: 395
    Before making any decisions based on what Edmund Forum posters say one has to keep in perspective what type of people likely post. I would guess that the Infiniti crowd is far more passionate and less forgiving about their Ms than the Lexus poster would be. Ergo, if the same little problem occured in both vehicles, it will probably receive much more poster coverage in the Infiniti group as compared to the Lexus group. Also what percentage of owners of each vehicle is actually using the Edmunds Forums? Again I would guess that you would find a larger percentage of Infiniti owners posting in comparison to Lexus owners (except for the IS). If a Lexus customer has an issue they are complaining to their dealer and are not posting it here. IMHO.

    If you read enough of the posters comments you can quickly discover what motivates them to post. You'll also discover that some people are completely biased one way or the other while still others just don't seem to have a clue : (

    I have posted messages regarding the strange noises but then again I'm far more sensitive to noises than your average Joe. But I have found out that I'm the exception rather than the rule. If you consider any exceptional issue to be "alarming" - well that's your choice. My Lexus sedan also had minor noises but I just turned up the radio. Check out the RX330 forum for even more Lexus noise issues. The smell issues you are referring to are normal burn off of packing oils - they go away. The gas mileage - yes I wish it was higher.

    Drive all the cars and buy the one that fits your personality.
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    My 330xi also had the sports package, and if you look at the performance numbers it's faster than the 325i even with slightly greater weight. I don't know where you're getting the idea that it's a "pig" by comparison. Sorry, I disagree about the straight line argument. Yes, the 545 is heavier, but it more than compensates for that with about 100+ more HP. That combined with the fact that it has a much wider track with much wider tires, and slightly better aerodynamics means to me at least that it would blow the 325 away straight line or on curves. Hell, if you listen to the arguments here their are plenty of folks that think AWD handles better which would mean the 330xi would handle better that the 325i. I'm trying to find more technical data to support what I'm saying so I'll get back to you.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 70,682
    1) The sport package on a 330xi only involves cosmetics.... No changes to the suspension...

    2) Handling.. not acceleration.... that is where the "big pig" term comes in..

    3) Just because the 545i will get through a turn faster, doesn't mean it has better handling... That is due to the better acceleration coming out of the turn.. You had the right idea: "545 is heavier, but it more than compensates for that with about 100+ more HP"...

    The key word is "compensate"... Just because it can "blow away" a 325i does not mean it handles better... You could probably say the same thing about a Mustang GT...



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  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Lower weight plus lower center of gravity = better handling car. Assuming the sport integrity of the suspensions are similar, and the moment caused by centrifugal force about the longitudinal axis is less on the smaller car, which is very reasonable to assume, the latter handles better. No way the 5 outhandles the 3. And basically, this is why vehicles such as the M5 cannot be considered true sports cars. I wish manufacturers would include vertical CG height with their specs.

    That said, I saw a 545 sport yesterday getting down. He did some serious weaves and the car's gait looks good. Haven't driven the M yet but am very curious because of the reviews. We'll see. The FX got good reviews too but it doesn't beat the X3 IMO.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    I'm no physicist or rocket scientist. All I know is what I can feel. I drove the 545 and a 2003 530i. My 2002 325i handled better. It felt like it was glued to the road-both straight line and hard around the curves-extremely stable. I did not feel this sensation in the other cars. I am not referring to power-just overall balance when driving hard.
    Giving up this vehicle in early August will not be easy. The new 330i had better be as good or better than my 325i, because if it's not, hpowders is going to be really pissed off!
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Designman is correct. The smaller car ALWAYS wins in the handling department. Should the 7 outhandle the 5 because its bigger and has more horsepower? No. An Audi S4 can beat an Audi RS6 in a slalom course. The RS6 has gobs more horsepower, but the S4 makes up for that in the cones. Take an M3 and an M5 to a race track, and the M3 will dominate.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 4,143
    Get a grip.

    When were you last in a British eating establishment? For me, it was 3 weeks ago, and prior to that, five journeys over the past two years haven't left me disappointed.

    The car may not be so good, but food is (as always) a subjective thing.

    Sitting in an establishment that has been in business for 300+ years and still serves what I consider very enjoyable food (bangers & mash w/ a pint of bitter) is a good thing, at least for me.

    The vehicle, however, may not be around long enough to endure the same examination.

    I continue to follow this board to see if the Infiniti M is good enough to make me abandon my position -- never own another automatic transmission. Mark's (to come) inputs will be interesting.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I cant say I was really surprised. Lexus is big in the US, but in Europe they are basically nothing. Doesnt appear that the '06 GS will be enough to change that.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    That pompous jerk Jeremy Clarkson took two pages to say what any idiot could have said in two sentences. And yes, it seemed racist. If not, then it was somehow buried in his pretentious verbosity.

    Hmm... bangers and mash... gettin' hungry. Already on the back end of me third pint.

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Kind of reminds me of the dedication of the National Cemetery at Gettysburg in 1863.
    Edward Everett, credited with being the country's greatest orator of the time, gave a speech that rambled on for about 2 hours. Then Lincoln hit the bulls eye in less than 2 minutes.
    Said Everett to Lincoln: "I should be glad if I could flatter myself that I came as near the central idea of the occasion in two hours, as you did in two minutes."
  • nmdrivernmdriver Posts: 23
    "The 330xi is a big pig in comparison (no offense to 330xi owners, it still out handles 90% of other cars)... "

    Based on my experiences with Audis and Subarus I am a big fan of AWD for driving on any road in any weather. I have been eagerly looking forward to the new crop of AWD versions of RWD cars. Based on the RWD and AWD versions of the Infinity G35, I expected the differences between the RWD and AWD models to be subtle. But this may not be the case. I have come to realize that you have to consider the AWD version to be a different model than the RWD version.
    Since I was comparing the RL, GS, M35, 530 etc., I decided that I should go back for a refresher drive of the less-expensive 300C. This reminded me that the Chrysler is not even close to being in the same class. But it also made me realize that the AWD 300C (which I had not previously seen) is an abomination. To fit the front drive shafts under the engine they have had to jack the car way up. What a strange beast!

    Some interesting comparisons (AWD vs RWD versions)
    GS AWD: 223lbs heavier, .4 in more ground clearance, .4 in taller. Stiffer run flat tires
    M35 AWD: 176 lbs heavier, .5 in taller (no specs on ground clearance),
    55/45 weight distribution (vs. 54/44), 17/24mpg vs. 18/25
    BMW 330I: 66 lbs heavier, .6 in taller, 20/29mpg vs. 20/30. Narrower tires
    taller final drive ratio. No "Sport" option.

    Moral: these are clearly different models. Maybe the difference is subtle. Maybe it isn't. You have to drive the AWD version to know how it will ride, steer and handle.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Clements went on and on doing a great impression of Bob Lutz, about how the GS was going to finally be a 5 killer from Lexus. Then they saddled the GS430 with the most agressive stability control system in their history, and NO off switch of any kind.

    Well even Motorweek, you know the Mary Poppins of the Automotive world, said that the GS430's stability system was the most intrusive yet devised, making the GS430 in particular no fun at all. This was today.

    Clements may have said 5-Series, but what Lexus actually did with the GS is stick to their roots of chasing Mercedes, but this time they even outdid the E-Class for restrictive electronics it seems.

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Uh oh. When Motorweek which rates all cars either "good" or "great" says something negative, there's definitely a serious problem. VDIM was supposed to be MORE driver oriented than Lexus' old VSC systems. Instead, its a controlling electronic overlord that would be more at home in the Matrix.
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    I'm sure there are many 5 and 7-series owners who may disagree, but IMO, the brand image of BMW skews younger compared to their most direct competition---Mercedes, Audi, and Lexus. This is also explained by the fact that something like 70% of their sales come from the 3-series.

    IMO, compared to Mercedes, Audi, and Lexus, BMW is also perceived to have a greater focus on driving dynamics and speed. (Something about "The Ultimate Driving Machine.") Hence, the younger skew.

    Thanks to the success of the A4, the perception and demographics behind the Audi brand is also skewing younger over the past 7 years. Infiniti is scratching into BMW's backyard, although they still have a long way to go. Acura is far more of a mix, since their product line runs the gamut from RSX to RL (with a tiny dash of NSX), and obviously skews most toward FWD. But of all of the brands, I believe Acura offers the most models with manual transmissions (4 out of 6).

    Just my opinion. That and 50 more cents will buy you a cup of coffee....
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