Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaMember Posts: 8,213
    Well, looks like that about covers it og_oggilby. Now that we have clarified things for you, you should be able to make a reasonable decision. :D

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Hi Markcincinnatti

    I look forward to the decision you make for yourself....It`s been a long time...Although I enjoy my Audi, the wife`s bmw 535xi would be my choice for a really long term ownership experience....The interior is not so great, but also not terrable...There is a longevity with them that I think Mr. og would benefit from....I would also doubt that the car would break after a lot of miles, unless abused and neglected.....If you or I had to choose a car for (say ten years) and live where it snows alot, there is no doubt in my mind that the bmw would still be a fun car to get into every day....The only real downside would possibly be the taxes he would pay( I have no idea)....Sounded to me like he wanted to buy a new car.... I have always respected your opinion, so I am sure Mr.og will benefit from your thoughts Tony
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I wouldn't bet against Acura reliability, for electronics or anything else. I have a 16 year old Legend which in its entire lifetime the check engine light came on once...only once....(and promptly reset itself after I restarted the car). The car is still a joy to drive.

    The problem is a 16 year old Legend and a new RL are very different cars. Old Legends, properly maintained, were easily as reliable as an LS400. Even the first generation RL was basically bulletproof. A real snoozebox bore-machine, but certainly reliable. The new one however, is not. Ratings for the '05s and '06s were mediocre at best, no better than BMW or Audi. To Acura's credit, they have improved to above average this year, but the Acura way used to be perfection from day one, not "we'll try to have all of the problems fixed by model year number 3."

    One of the mags, I believe it may have been C&D, had a long term tester RL that had eight unscheduled dealer visits for electrical problems in a period of a few months. In early Acura history, that kind of thing would be unheard of. Not anymore. Ever since that transmission disaster with the TL and CL, Acura quality has gone way down hill. I would bet that after year 10, let alone 17, the RL's electrical systems would require repairs costing $3K+
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    It is a shame that my 2002 GS got rear ended a few years ago (17k damage and it was never the same) or I would still be driving it and not going through this right now.

    Why not buy another? Last gen GS430s are very affordable, and unlike the new car, their record is spotless. Just buy a new NAV DVD from the dealer, and you're good to go.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Is the RL fun to drive?

    In my opinion, no. I haven't spent a ton of time behind the wheel of the car, mostly because of how bland the driving experience was. Unlike the M, the RL cannot disguise its weight. It rolls badly in corners, and though SH-AWD tries its best, all that weight over the front axle just leads to understeer, understeer, understeer. Even Audi would call it overly nose heavy.

    The engine isn't necessarily a bad one, but it's just not a match for the Lexus or Infiniti 3.5 V6s. There's not enough torque, and its too far up in the rev band, so the car generally feels sluggish and out of breath when compared to the gutsy and aggressive Infiniti V6 or the smooth and turbine like Lexus V6.

    When you consider the '08 Accord V6, things just get ugly. The Accord is just as fast, is lighter, fuel economy is much better, it looks better, the interior is, let's face it, basically the same with a bit more restraint, and its larger inside and more comfortable.

    In the fun to drive factor, I'd rank the current crop thusly: 1. BMW 5, 2. Infiniti M, 3. Audi S-line 4. Mercedes E Sport 5. Cadillac STS 6. Lexus GS350 7. Volvo S80 V8 8. Acura RL 9. The rest of the GS line.

    The Jag XF is of course a question mark, but if it handles anything like the XKR, it should be fun.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,140
    "But for performance, luxury and fun an A6 4.2 SLine if one can be found, would be a great ride -- and about 15 minutes per year can also be a great value. "

    OK, I'll bite...
    What do you mean here?
    15 minutes per year?
    Thanks,
    - Ray
    Somewhat confused .....
    2020 BMW M340i
  • og_oggilbyog_oggilby Member Posts: 27
    markcincinnati, thanks for the info.

    Sounds like you are a Cadillac fan, do you have one? My understanding is the Cadillac 100,000 powertrain warranty is for 5 years and I plan (hope) to keep my next car for at least twice that. Supposedly powertrain reliability in Cadillac's is not so great.

    I took a look at CR's Lexus GS reliability history. Pretty strange findings. The bad marks are with "Squeaks & Rattles", "Power equipment and accessories" including cruise control, heated or cooled seats, body control module, keyless entry, wiper motor or washer, tire pressure monitor, interior or exterior lights, horn, gauges, 12V power plug, alarm or security system, backup camera/sensors and "Audio System" meaning Nav systems, radio speakers, CD or DVD player and changer, cassette player, antenna, satellite radio, video screen, communication system.

    There apparently is a problem with squeaks & rattles in all of the GS models. The strange thing is that the ratings for "Power equipment and accessories" and "Audio System" in the rear wheel drive GS are rated better than average. I would think that they would be the same since I doubt that Lexus would put a different Audio system in the awd version than they put in the rwd GS. I think your "CR is great at picking dishwashers however" might be dead on.
  • og_oggilbyog_oggilby Member Posts: 27
    Why not buy another? Last gen GS430s are very affordable, and unlike the new car, their record is spotless. Just buy a new NAV DVD from the dealer, and you're good to go.

    One reason - it was the worst car I have driven in the snow. That is why I am looking for an awd car. I don't want to hassle with snow tires.
  • og_oggilbyog_oggilby Member Posts: 27
    Well, looks like that about covers it og_oggilby. Now that we have clarified things for you, you should be able to make a reasonable decision.

    Yes, it is all so clear now ;)
  • og_oggilbyog_oggilby Member Posts: 27
    Rumor has it that 50-state legal diesels may be available in a year or so.

    That would be a good thing, and might be worth waiting for...
  • og_oggilbyog_oggilby Member Posts: 27
    Is the RL fun to drive?

    In my opinion, no. I haven't spent a ton of time behind the wheel of the car, mostly because of how bland the driving experience was. Unlike the M, the RL cannot disguise its weight. It rolls badly in corners, and though SH-AWD tries its best, all that weight over the front axle just leads to understeer, understeer, understeer. Even Audi would call it overly nose heavy.


    Good to know since I hate body roll.

    In the fun to drive factor, I'd rank the current crop thusly: 1. BMW 5, 2. Infiniti M, 3. Audi S-line 4. Mercedes E Sport 5. Cadillac STS 6. Lexus GS350 7. Volvo S80 V8 8. Acura RL 9. The rest of the GS line.

    Wow the Acura is less fun than a Volvo...

    I'm glad that I am forced to wait a few more months before making a decision (since I don't want to have two car payments any more!). I know that I am going to be tempted to get the BMW 535xi even though it is more than I want to spend. My fault for test driving it.

    Also, I really wish Infiniti had done something to improve gas milage in the 2008's.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Much is written about Audi's apparent disinterest in agressively pricing their cars (for lease or purchase) in the US. While BMW's can be leased for a fraction of the cost of many of this class.

    Once, maybe twice, per year, there is a "point of inflection" so to speak, where an Audi actually can be acquired without breaking the bank.

    With the A6 4.2, my comment was almost literally: the duration of that window of opportunity is 15 minutes.

    I shopped for my 2005 A6 for months and it was often $200 more than an Infiniti or a BMW on a 36 month closed end lease. Indeed, the Audi had to be over optioned to make it compare with the M35X, which made the price gap even larger.

    Yet, lo and behold, here comes a deal -- a $53,286 MSRP Audi for $640 per month, 15K miles and no money down.

    I have seen this type of "get 'em while you can" offer from Audi about ONE TIME annually and I cannot always put my finger on the rhyme or reason for the "deals" such as they are.

    They do last, however, about 15 minutes.

    Be there or be square.
  • bruceomegabruceomega Member Posts: 250
    FWIW

    Bang for the buck -- ???? Well, again the new CTS 3.6DI AWD with the FE2 suspension and the lux package is "almost a BMW 5 series" -- at least if you evaluate cars largely by their wheelbase and width.

    In the Nov 07 issue of Sports Car International, they have a review of the '08 CTS, and an inset write up on the 535i. They prefrerred the engine and transmission of the 535i. Surprisingly, to me, they criticized the ride and handling of the 535i, while complementing the CTS, but I am not familiar with this magazine or it's credibility.

    ... it is hard to resist the 535x. But for performance, luxury and fun an A6 4.2 SLine if one can be found, would be a great ride ...

    I would suggest adding the M45x to this mix.

    Thanks
    Bruce
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,140
    "I have seen this type of "get 'em while you can" offer from Audi about ONE TIME annually and I cannot always put my finger on the rhyme or reason for the "deals" such as they are.

    They do last, however, about 15 minutes."

    I see.
    Thanks for 'splainin' that to me.
    - Ray
    Feelin' pretty dumb....
    2020 BMW M340i
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    ... Supposedly powertrain reliability in Cadillac's is not so great. ...

    Where on Earth did you hear that? :confuse: GM cars have their problems, but powertrain/drivetrain is not normally one of them.
  • og_oggilbyog_oggilby Member Posts: 27
    Where on Earth did you hear that? GM cars have their problems, but powertrain/drivetrain is not normally one of them.

    ConsumerReports.org

    Specifically the drive system is rated below average or worse in the CTS (for the last 5 years) and the STS (only lists 2006). I have no idea how accurate the CR ratings are, which is the reason I wrote "Supposedly".
  • 150mphclub150mphclub Member Posts: 316
    You need to learn how to read Consumer Reports. They specifically rated the CTS engines and transmissions above average in reliability.

    The rating you are talking about is not the powertrain/drivetrain, but the "drive system", which Consumer Reports describes as follows:

    Drive system: Driveshaft or axle, CV joint, wheel bearing(s), differential, transfer case, 4WD/AWD components, driveline vibration, traction control, stability control, electrical failure.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZMember Posts: 5,184
    there were a number of cases of differential noise reported on the earlier CTS's. That might help explain the CR thing, though often CR stuff can't be explained.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I have also read reports of suspensions and/or suspension frame members failing.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    BMW 5-series 4,943
    M-B E-class 4,176
    Infiniti M 1,535
    Lexus GS 1,507
    Audi A6 937
    Acura RL 365

    Year to date figures:

    BMW 5-series 42,837
    M-B E-class 38,360
    Lexus GS 18,597
    Infiniti M 17,948
    Audi A6 9,699
    Acura RL 5,284
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaMember Posts: 8,213
    Dr, what is your source for those figures? Thanks.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    The manufacturers announce their sales through a variety of sources. I usually just go to theautochannel.com because they list announcements from all auto makers.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaMember Posts: 8,213
    Thank you, great source!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • ericpaulmeyerericpaulmeyer Member Posts: 1
    I am wondering if the maintenance on a new Audi A5 is as expensive as maintenance on a BMW S3?
  • lovemyclklovemyclk Member Posts: 351
    Do you mean S5 vs. M3? One thing... ZERO out of pocket for 4 years/50K miles on the BMW.
  • lynnminnylynnminny Member Posts: 49
    Just in case any of you here are interested in the Jaguar XF :)

    LOS ANGELES — Jaguar North America said late Wednesday that its 2009 XF sedan will start at $49,975, including a $775 destination charge. The newest Jag model arrives in showrooms on March 1.

    The new XF will be available in three trim levels, starting with the base Luxury model. The Premium Luxury XF starts at $55,975. The Supercharged XF starts at $62,975, including shipping.

    The XF shows off the new face of Jaguar but carries over hardware from the Jaguar S-Type. In comparison, a 2008 S-Type starts at $49,000, including a $665 destination charge.

    The U.S. XF models launch with either a 300-horsepower 4.2-liter V8 or a 420-hp supercharged variant of the same engine. The engine is mated to a six-speed automatic transmission with steering-wheel-mounted paddles as standard.

    What this means to you: Be aware that there's a dramatic gulf between the base XF and the performance model when you head out to the dealership to dicker. — Anita Lienert, Correspondent
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The luxo model will be $55K and the SC model will be $62K. I suspect an R version to exceed the $70K mark sometime in the future.

    It is a sweet looker!

    image

    Regards,
    OW
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,140
    “The luxo model will be $55K and the SC model will be $62K. I suspect an R version to exceed the $70K mark sometime in the future.”

    I think what is most important here, though, is the fact that the s/c 420 HP version is priced a couple grand ** BELOW ** the current s/c 400 HP S-Type “R”.

    Pretty aggressive pricing, seems to me . . .

    We’ll see if there is any effect on ( dismal ) Jag sales.
    - Ray
    Encouraged by this move . . .
    2020 BMW M340i
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I agree. Now we're seeing some interesting activity from Jag in light of the fact there will be new ownership soon.

    This xf is a very attractive combination of elegance and sophistication this side of $75K.

    Regards,
    OW
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    a viable car company???...Someone posted earlier that Jag sales were only a few thousand monthly NATIONWIDE...someone may buy Jag for a song, but will there be anything left to sell???

    I ask because, for all the vehicles I look at, the thought of buying a 2-3 year old XJ, MSRP $50-65K, in the $20K range is tempting, but not if there are no more dealers to service the car...
  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    I would expect Ford dealers to service Jags, at least the models manufactured before the company might be sold.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I ask because, for all the vehicles I look at, the thought of buying a 2-3 year old XJ, MSRP $50-65K, in the $20K range is tempting, but not if there are no more dealers to service the car...

    I don't think Jag is just going to drop off the face of the earth like Rover did. I'm sure there will still be plenty of dealers around when your XJ needs servicing. If you're that frightened about it, you can pick up a used LS430 for similar money. It wont be as fun, or as interesting, but there'll be nothing to worry about. The only other bargain luxury car like the XJ is the VW Phaeton, and honestly I'd be a lot more worried about trying to get one of those serviced than any Jag.
  • jasefjasef Member Posts: 1
    I just (12 Nov 07) purchased a CPO 2005 Audi A6 with the 4.2 V8 and Sport Package. It also has every other option available at the time. It has 25K on the odom and sports the deep coat of black paint. I love it. It came with the remainder of the original full coverage warranty for two more years, plus the Audi CPO warranty for six more years. Fantastic car, for $35,000 OTD.

    The 4.2 V8 matched to the Sport package, lowered and stiffened suspension, is amazing. The power and handling are more than I would expect. The car goes anywhere I want it to. I am a trained and experienced Protective Service Operation driver in the military and know how to drive cars hard. This one drives hard and loves it! I wish we could use Audis instead of Chevys...

    Plenty of room in the rear for the three kids, and the trunk is...hard to explain how ENORMOUS it is, it is big.

    So far my MPG has been between 21 and 25 highway at 75MPH, but that is what the car is telling me. I need more fill-ups to determine the truth. Much better than the old Suburban I was driving!

    If you are looking for a great CPO deal, I would suggest looking for one like mine. The original sticker price for this car was $60,900 with all of the options, and CPO is the only way I can grasp this kind of luxury. It still looks and feels like a brand new car.
  • kgarykgary Member Posts: 180
    Welcome aboard. I have had an 05 4.2 since Feb. 2005. It is a great car. You will love it.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I just (12 Nov 07) purchased a CPO 2005 Audi A6 with the 4.2 V8 and Sport Package. It also has every other option available at the time. It has 25K on the odom and sports the deep coat of black paint. I love it. It came with the remainder of the original full coverage warranty for two more years, plus the Audi CPO warranty for six more years. Fantastic car, for $35,000 OTD.

    Congrats on the new car. The A6 4.2 Sport is one of my two top favorite cars in the mid-lux segment, the other being the Infiniti M45 Sport. The M is ultimately the more raw, entertaining car, but it won't get anywhere near that kind of mileage on the highway with just 5 gears. The A6 is almost as fun to drive, and it is definitely the better cruiser.
  • nyarlathotepnyarlathotep Member Posts: 20
    Repost from 2008 m35 Forum:

    Trying to decide which is the better option for me.
    2007 pluses: wheels, colors (interior AND exterior), price (as a leftover)
    2008 pluses: ipod connectivity / music hard disk (both very big deals to me as a music lover)
    Can anyone think of any reasons to lease one as opposed to another?
  • lynnminnylynnminny Member Posts: 49
    Major facelift planned next year for Acura RL
    Posted on Monday 19 November 2007

    Acura is planning to inject some life into the slow selling RL flagship saloon by giving the car a major overhaul in time for next year’s summer sale period. Several dealers were given information about the update but no specifications or details about the car’s final styling were revealed.

    One dealer in Pittsburgh told Automotive News that the car will receive “a major facelift in the front and back.” Dealers across the U.S. have requested several major changes as another Los Angeles salesmen explained. “Dealers have said they want three things: They don’t like the styling, there is not enough rear-seat legroom and it needs a turbocharger or V8.”

    American Honda exec Dan Bonawitz confirmed that changes to the car will be introduced by the middle of next year, also admitting that the car’s interior could be improved. He wasn’t willing to give any details about any powertrain changes, however.

    If any car in Acura/Honda’s lineup was in need of an update it’s the RL. The latest model has sold poorly since its introduction in 2004, with latest sales figures down 47.5% on the same period last year. The key problem is that luxury buyers usually look for RWD vehicles with powerful V8 engines and the AWD V6 RL meets neither of those descriptors.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    2008 pluses: ipod connectivity / music hard disk (both very big deals to me as a music lover)
    Can anyone think of any reasons to lease one as opposed to another?


    I would get the '08. I think its a better looking car overall, and the white gauges are a big improvement as well. That is unless you really like the saddle leather, which appears to be gone.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,140
    http://www.autospies.com/news/Confirmed-B8-Audi-S4-to-feature-3-0-liter-TFSI-twi- n-turbo-V6-330-horsepower-23448/

    Perhaps this motor will also find a home in the A6, before the next update of that model?
    2020 BMW M340i
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    It makes sense to get the performance and economy of the A6 increased to compete with the 5 and 3 series.

    The RS4 will need to be blown as well for the respective performance enhancement.

    Regards,
    OW
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Perhaps this motor will also find a home in the A6, before the next update of that model?

    I read that it was supposed to slot in the middle of the A6 range, replacing the old 2.7T. Audi has to know that their 265hp 3.1L really isn't enough these days.
  • kgarykgary Member Posts: 180
    Has anyone ever used BG 44K fule additive or BG MOA oil additive? If so, are they any good?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Some folks swear by BG products, however, many other folks (me included) regard these products as snake oil, products designed to separate folks from their money. FWIW, the odds on bet is that your Owner's Manual clearly recommends that no oil and fuel additives are to be used on your car at all. Why do you suppose that is?

    The fact is that the individuals that designed and built your engine designed it to run hundreds of thousands of miles with just the recommended maintenance, and the use of after market additives will, if anything, be at least as much of a detriment to that engine as they will be as a benefit.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • tx_buzzardtx_buzzard Member Posts: 130
    your Owner's Manual clearly recommends that no oil and fuel additives are to be used on your car at all. Why do you suppose that is?

    Funny thing, the Owner's Manual for my 550i says just that... not to use additives. Yet BMW makes an additive for the gas. I think it has more to do with getting customers to buy a car company's own additives vs. others. Personally I have had some really good results with BG products.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Honda has announced the recall of 43,000 Acura RL sedans. The recall — which affects 2005-2008 model year cars — is due to a faulty power steering hose that can crack and leak fluid onto the catalytic converter, possibly leading to fire.

    Earlier this year, Honda recalled 182,756 Civic sedans, making it one of the most recalled automakers of 2007.

    Despite the recent recalls, Honda still maintains one of the lowest recall rates in the industry.


    Regards,
    OW
  • bocatripbocatrip Member Posts: 194
    As a manufacturer starts seriously pumping out cars there will always be recalls made because of the big numbers of cars produced. It's just the law of averages.
  • james27james27 Member Posts: 433
    Don't know what addatives they suggest, but one that comes to mind is a gas addative to take care of moisture in the gasoline. Depending on where you live, the temperatures, and the quality of the gasoline, it is very possible to have moisture that could lead to a frozen gas line. Areas where they are adding alcohol to the gasoline already are not likely to need it, though.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    Especially if the alcohol is GlenLivet 18 year old single malt Scotch...:):):)...man, I just slay me...
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I use Johnnie Walker Blue to reduce any moisture!

    Regards,
    OW
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