Has Honda's run - run out?

PF_Flyer · May 2006

Pics were too wide and had the message area under the right side videos. Remember to limit them to 500 pixels in width! (Been a while since you were a newbie :P )

ateixeira · May 2006

It's OK, but the point remains, the Mazda3 does fit right in with a couple of euro 5 door hatches, upswept C-pillar and all.

-juice

carguy58 · May 2006

"For all I know, the success Honda had back in the 80's and 90's may simply have been a result of the fact that nobody else was in that market."

Well there was no Mazda 3 than so don;t forget about that. There was no Scion TC either. There was no Chrysler 300 that the kids now see in the rap video's. Don;t forget all 3 cars that I just mentioned have all come out all what in the past 3-4 years? There was no Subie WRX in the 90's.

varmint · May 2006

That's sorta what I mean. If there had been strong competitors for the types of cars Honda was building, would Honda have been nearly as successful?

Probably not.

Well, today there are companies chasing those buyers. So, I'm not so certain that Honda has "lost their mojo". They just have competition today, which wasn't there decades back.

Oh, and you forgot the Mini.

carguy58 · May 2006

"Everyone who praises the TL makes a big deal out of its price. "For its price, it offers outstanding feature content and a fun ride". If it cost as much as the 530i and GS350 (competing cars its size), those two would be stealing a lot of its sales. That's fine for making money, but it's not much to celebrate."

The TL is the best seller in its class right. Its not going up against the 5 Series or the GS. Its going up against the CTS, ES350, 3 Series, and the S60.

"Will the Acura always have to be the discount special to sell well in its segment?"

Discount Special: Honda raised the price up by 4,000$ of the TL when it was introduced for the 04 model from what a base TL cost in 2003. What was an 03 TL under 30K for the base model? Its not a discount special. Used to be but not anymore.

"What will happen when/if Audi finally brings its reliability up,"

I liked how cutting edge Audi was a few years ago in their interiors and exterior styling but the newer generation of cars doesn;t look as cutting edge as it did in both aspects(exterior styling, and interiors.)

"Subaru makes a car that finally convinces people to spend more than $30K on a Soob, and Volvo finally hits the sweet spot with sport S60 models?"

Well Subie's not affilated with GM anymore so I would forget about a Subie rebadged as a Saab. As for Volvo they lack the attention of young buyers. The current S40 has gotten the young buyers that Volvo always wanted but I don't see tooo many current generation S40's around.

A"nd geez, all that's holding back the G35 from stomping all over the TL is its cheap interior, which Nissan has promised is fixed for the next round."

I sgree with you on that point one of the major drawbacks of the current G is its interior but Nissan didn't really change anything up on the exterior for the 07 G and to me that could be a major drawback of the 07 G is a its not really that different on the exterior from the current G.

"I dunno. It's a crowded field. Honda has a good name, and enjoyable product. It just seems like they are rushing to embrace the middle market, rather than trying to excel in some way related to engineering or sport, two areas where I THOUGHT their roots were. Image alone cannot support a brand for very long."

The only complaint I have about Honda some of the way their cars are styled especially the Accord. Honda has some of the best engine in the biz, gas mileadge is a strength. Resale values are good. Interior quality is still good. Everything Honda had in the 90's is still there but the styling just needs more upgrading. If I were Honda I would worry about Mazda. Next generation 6 will be roomier than the current 6 so it could steal some Accord sales like the current Altima did if Honda goes conservative on the next accord in their styling of it. My other complaint is Honda hasn't made a V-8 engine. However, the next Acura NSX will have a V-8 I think. I think one of the reasons that Honda had never made a V-8 was it would kill their reputation for great gas mileadge that they have.

carguy58 · May 2006

"That's sorta what I mean. If there had been strong competitors for the types of cars Honda was building, would Honda have been nearly as successful?"

"Probably not."

I don;t know thats hard to say if Honda would be as successful as it were today of Mazda, Subie, and Scion were around than in the youth market in the same exact capacity as it were today. I mean the Scion TC takes the place of the old Corolla sport. I mean Toyota did have its share of youth buyers in the late 80's. Once Toyota killed the Corolla Sport and the Celica faded throughout the 90's Toyota really wasn;t seeing alot of new buyers. One of Toyota;s misdoings was making the 93 and 98 Corolla cars for middle america instead of making it exterior styled for the youth. Also, Mazda was pretty good in mid 80's/early 90's. I think the MX-6 was their youth model during that time but it faded out throughout the 90's and it got axed after the 1997 model year. The 95-98 Protege didn't sell well and it again it was again designed for middle america and not the youth. There was no Mazda Protege 5 either in 1995 like there was in 2002. I think Honda competitor was Mitsubishi in the 90's for the youth market. I mean the 95-99 Eclipse was pretty hot with the youth but the Mirage(mitsu's small car at the time) was too stodgy looking for the youth market.

"Well, today there are companies chasing those buyers. So, I'm not so certain that Honda has "lost their mojo". They just have competition today, which wasn't there decades back."

I agree its so close but I think Honda might have pulled out all the right stops with the Civic Coupe to match Mazda and Scion. I do like the 3 better for looks over the Civic Coupe but I have seen alot of young current Civic coupe buyers that I didn't see with the last generation Civic Coupe.

rockylee · May 2006

The next NSX is slated for a V-10 pal.

Rocky

nippononly · May 2006

"The TL is the best seller in its class right. Its not going up against the 5 Series or the GS. Its going up against the CTS, ES350, 3 Series, and the S60."

I beg to differ - the TL is a midsize luxury sport sedan. At least that's what Honda says it is. As such, it should compete against midsize luxury sport sedans from other carmakers.

CTS? Sporty? Maybe with sport options including the optional engine, which would also bring its price up even with the TL. I honestly haven't paid enough attention to the CTS to know how it would do in a back-to-back with the TL, but I bet its RWD wouldn't hurt.

ES350? Not close to sport. 3-series? Not close to midsize. S60? OK, maybe now you're talking - in its upper trims it is sporty enough...but the S60R is enough machine to seriously put the TL to the test (and is AWD, perhaps also an advantage if it doesn't weigh way too much), and is only a few thousand more...which brings me right back to the original point - the TL is the cheaper choice of the two. So it sells on price in this face-off.

I think we have to be realistic about who it is that Acura WANTS to compete with, in its future plans for world domination (:-P), and you have to think it is Lexus/Infiniti/MB/BMW/Audi (and perhaps Caddy too, if the General keeps up the effort with that brand). Those brands are where the big-money sales and the prestige are. While it continues to NOT compete seriously with those brands (and it seems it will NOT in the near future), I wish it had kept the RSX on for a while...

mvc_jones · May 2006

'If there had been strong competitors for the types of cars Honda was building, would Honda have been nearly as successful? '

Honda obviously created and took advantage of a market in the past that others did not see or have the tolerance to attempt to serve. Honda deserves accolades for that, not scorn.

The fact that others are finally seriously jumping in a market that Honda created and others finally saw fit to take advantage of is a credit to Honda, to the market's benefit. Otherwise, a Corolla S would be a sporty compact to this day. Whoopee.

One can opine about which product today is most superior in this class, but there is no question that Honda chose to offer product in this market when others didn't have the stones to do so, and this should not be viewed as pejorative.

mvc_jones · May 2006

Value, not price.

One can opine about performance at 10/10's and all that (which most drivers will never experience), but in my opinion to offer a product at a 5 series/GS size and utility, fully optioned, with good performance for a FWD layout, very appealing design inside and out, at a less than 3 series price, this will sell all day long now and in the future.

Your argument holds a lot of if's in it, that could have been addressed in the last 15-20 years, but have not. What makes you think this value equation will change in the next 20 years, with Acura TL sales increasing at a higher price point, in the face of stiffer competition? The 3 series improves (and becomes very expensive), the far superior G35 replaces the I35, the TL offers only the higher price product fully optioned, and TL sales still improve? Doesn't seem to support your doomsday predictions...

nippononly · May 2006

But Honda will most likely NOT stay its current course. It appears they are going to jump into AWD in a big way in the next 5-10 years, at least for the Acura line. And with power rising over the 300 hp mark, don't they pretty much HAVE to, after all?

So they will become more expensive (not to mention heavier), faster than their competitors who are already using drivetrain layouts that they will continue to use. Once the price advantage is significantly reduced or even erased, well, they won't suffer too badly at first as I said. Their rep will carry them for a while. But I don't see how they will distinguish from other luxury makes in the future.

People respect the Lexus line and desire a Lexus car because it has for years led its line with the LS sedan, a car that has been very popular and highly acclaimed by luxury car standards. Acura and Infiniti have never been able to do this (poor Infiniti has fumbled with its Q year after year, while Acura muddled around with the weird Vigor/Legend mix earlier in the 90s, then the totally ignored last-gen RL and now the quickly pooh-poohed current model), which is why they remain in obscurity to this day when people consider luxury brands.

mvc_jones · May 2006

Seems more like Acura (not Honda) may increase AWD in it's lineup, but I wouldn't say anyone has evidence they will jump in a big way to AWD. MDX has AWD, RL has AWD, RDX as a new crossover SUV will have AWD, and very low volume higher dollar NSX may have AWD. RSX is gone, but did not have AWD, TSX has no evidence it will go AWD and TL has no evidence it will go AWD, and these two are a reasonable part of the volume.

As for value, for the small group of people who specifically seek out AWD (i.e. those who purchase M35's, GS300's and 5 Series with AWD), it appears to me that the poorly selling RL still wins the value equation, on price, feature content and performance in this case, all at a lower price. So the notion of adding AWD to Acura products does not seem to impact the value equation in my opinion, I would chalk up the poor RL sales not due to price, weight or performance, but more that Acura needs to improve marketing/brand image for a $45k price point, and, as a value purchase, and Acura buyer has not been presented with the value equation in most part of the RL over the TL, unless they specifically want AWD. If the TL goes AWD, I do not think this changes, and I would suspect, with Acura's very simple sales platform of one model, fully loaded, they can keep costs and value very competetive with other AWD and RWD competitors, maintaining their value edge. I for one am glad that Acura maintains a value (I get an excellent product with great features for a very good price, not just low price) emphasized approach as opposed to product at any cost (the product being justified as good enough that one should pay a premium price for less content based on the inherent qualities of the product, purely premium pricing).

robertsmx · May 2006

I managed to see a breakdown of BMW 3-series sales from last month, and to my surprise, 40% of BMW 330i sedans sold in April were with AWD!
330i (E90 & E46) 1,572
330xi (E90 & E46) 1,074

So, while we may choose to dismiss Acura's desire to move towards AWD drivetrain, it appears, AWD car market is growing.

ateixeira · May 2006

We had a mild April here in the Mid Atlantic region, too, so I don't think it was the weather that helped much.

-juice

varmint · May 2006

"Seems more like Acura (not Honda) may increase AWD in it's lineup, but I wouldn't say anyone has evidence they will jump in a big way to AWD. MDX has AWD, RL has AWD, RDX as a new crossover SUV will have AWD, and very low volume higher dollar NSX may have AWD. RSX is gone, but did not have AWD, TSX has no evidence it will go AWD and TL has no evidence it will go AWD, and these two are a reasonable part of the volume."

Check the Sports4 concept from Geneva. It was rumored to be a replacement for the UK Accord (the luxury version of which is our TSX) and was powered with a turbo 4 cylinder and SH-AWD.

I doubt we'll see it standard across the board, but it's very possible that we'll have a FWD TSX and TL as well as a sportier trim for each which includes SH-AWD.

varmint · May 2006

Nippon was making the point that other brands are developing AWD, becoming reliable, designing RWD cars, etc. He asked the question which titles this post.

I don't have an answer, but I would be remiss if I didn't turn it around and ask the same question with the name of some other company in place of Acura (in particular).

What will make BMWs distinctive with all the performance-oriented sedans flooding the market?

What will make Mercedes distinctive with brands like Acura and Infiniti trying to move up the luxury ladder? One could argue that Lexus has already dethroned them as the snob-mobile of choice.

What will make Audi distinctive with everyone adding AWD to their line-ups?

If I had to guess, I'd say clever features. We see more of these in Hondas than Acuras, but they can be shared. The magic seat in the Ody. The relocated gas tank/magic seat in the Fit. The in-bed trunk from the Ridgeline. The SH-AWD system. The Acura NAV system. They have made plenty of innovative advances in the market. I see no reason for them to stop.

ateixeira · May 2006

Good first question, I think BMW hit a dead end and has not really known where to go from there. Note all the silly active steering mechanisms, and especially how they are deleted from their //M cars.

-juice

robertsmx · May 2006

it's very possible that we'll have a FWD TSX and TL as well as a sportier trim for each which includes SH-AWD.

Exactly my thoughts. We could potentially see the beginning with the rumored TL MMC. But holding my breath to see if SH-AWD does find another application (besides RL, MDX and RDX) this year (TL-S).

rsholland · May 2006

Those numbers don't surprise me too much. I see a LOT of AWD BMW cars where I live.

Bob

rsholland · May 2006

I suspect it will be offered (if not standard) on all of their vehicles within 5 years.

Bob

varmint · May 2006

I think Shawn or Jeff had a compelling reason for why Sh-AWD would not be offered on the current TL. It was the saddle-style gas tank or something else under there. So, I doubt we'll see it until the FMC.

varmint · May 2006

In other, kinda silly, news... rumor has it the MMC for the TL will bring back a Type S model. However, the rumor mill states no changes to the suspension just a boost to some place near the 300 hp mark. Same 3.2L engine. They are not giving it the RL's 3.5L. Same FWD layout.

rockylee · May 2006

What's this MMC ? Got a link to your source pal ?

I'm interested....

Rocky

ateixeira · May 2006

Perhaps I look for them, but I notice tons of 4Matic, AWD, and "X" badges on Benzes, Bimmers, Infinitis, Audis, etc. Nearly half those cars I see.

-juice

ateixeira · May 2006

You can bet the MDX will join that club. That's the one thing they keep talking about, even officially, at NY, that it'll have "class leading V6 power".

-juice

rockylee · May 2006

Wow, thanx for the link pal. :surprise:

Rocky

anythngbutgm · May 2006

http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=547955

varmint · May 2006

It's only a rumor.

carguy58 · May 2006

"I think they are now moving away from that with the RDX, which appears to be all sport and very little Honda practicality. And I'm not pleased. "

The reason for the RDX was that from which Rich Collivier saw(he's the vice president of sales for Honda in the US I think) was that they could add 20,000 units a year in the US for putting a vehicle like the RDX on the market.

Also, the first thing when I thought that Honda would be putting the RDX on onto the market and slotting it below the MDX was here's Acura's conpetitor to BMW's X3 SUV. Hey if BMW can slot an X3 below the X5 I think Honda can pull off slotting the RDX below the MDX for their Acura line. Its just that the RDX has to have a good price point f(value)for it too sell. I wonder if Toyota will slot a vehicle below the RX 330 for their Lexus line.

As for the current state of the Acura brand they did sell 209,000 units last year in the US which was Acura's best selling year in the US. I'm sort of shaky on the state of the Acura brand however because the RL is not selling. I just don't think Acura has the prestinge if you will to push a 50 grand priced car. The car needs more space in the backseat first off. I think if the RL was priced more in the low-mid 40K price range it would sell. I know Honda is looking at lowering the price of the RL now or putting a cheaper version( a lower level trime line) I think of the current RL out. Before the current RL came out I was thinking if Honda put out a low to mid 40K priced RL out it would do good but when I heard 50K I was kinda stunned.

ateixeira · May 2006

There is definitely room in the lineup for a 2nd SUV for Acura. Toyota/Lexus has something like 85 of them.

-juice

varmint · May 2006

I know there is a place for the RDX. I just don't think the vehicle they built shares the same blend of utility and sport that is present in many other Hondas and Acuras.

On the issue of sales pace, Acura did have their best year in 2005 and has been climbing steadily for quite a while. I don't have the exact figures at my finger tips, but I think this is how they measure up.

Lexus 300K
BMW 250K (+ 40K for Mini)
Caddy 230K
Benz 220K
Acura 209K
Infiniti 130K
Audi 80K

When you consider how many vehicles (and variants) are offered by Lexus and BMW, Acura's sales are pretty good. I think Lexus had 8 models in 2005 to Acura's 6 (including the NSX).

ateixeira · May 2006

I don't disagree that they are doing well, but some folks might want to exclude RSX sales since that is not a luxury car. Depends on where you draw the line, I guess.

I would have excluded the older G20 and maybe the Lexus ES250 when they were around, too. Even the Audi A3, 318ti compact, and Benz "sport coupe" hatchback.

-juice

varmint · May 2006

You're welcome to do the math. :P

ateixeira · May 2006

I just think it's funny that Acura is trying to rid themselves of a sporty hatch, while the Germans have all tried and failed to add one to their lineups. :confuse:

-juice

robertsmx · May 2006

A Decade Apart...

1995: 97K (Integra: 61K, or 63% of total sales)
2000: 143K (Integra: 26K, or 19% of total sales)
2005: 209K (RSX: 21K, or 10% of total sales)

Acura has moved ahead drastically from relying on Integra for sales volume to relying on TL and MDX (these two accounted for 65% of Acura sales in 2005).

grbeck · May 2006

That's the same for Honda, too, isn't it? Honda doesn't offer that many vehicles, but it gets good mileage out of the ones it does offer.

varmint · May 2006

True. Honestly, the Honda line may be doing it better than the Acuras.

In terms of selling at or near the top of the market, Honda has the Accord, Civic, Pilot, CR-V, and Odyssey. And, if things go as most forecasts suggest, the Fit may also be a top tier player. The only niche products or low volume sellers are the Insight, Ridgeline, Element, and S2000. More than half the line-up is making a strong showing. More bread than butter.

Acura has the TL amd MDX. The TSX is doing well (very well) given their expectations, but it's kind of a niche player. Obviously, the RL is not doing well and the RSX is fading. So, less than half the offerings are top contenders. They just don't have any complete failures or low volume niche products.

carguy58 · May 2006

"A Decade Apart...

1995: 97K (Integra: 61K, or 63% of total sales)
2000: 143K (Integra: 26K, or 19% of total sales)
2005: 209K (RSX: 21K, or 10% of total sales)"

Wow! they went up 46K units units in 5 years. I think that's a pretty rapid sales growth for a luxury nameplate anyway. I think most of that sales gain though from 1995 to 2000 has to due to the release of the 99 TL though. Do you know at what point the MDX came out in the 2000 model year because it was brand new for the 2001 model year. I should also add the Integra wasn't upgraded really at all from the 1994 model year in which it debut in and up to the mid point of 2001 in which it became known as the RSX currently which probably led to its sales drop from 1995(61K) to 2000(26K.)

varmint · May 2006

"Wow! they went up 46K units units in 5 years."

True. But, if I recall correctly, Lexus went from selling about 200K to selling 300K in the same period. The RX300 really added to their business.

robertsmx · May 2006

I believe MDX arrived as a 2001 model in March 2000, so it has been virtually unchanged into its seventh year now, and still doing well.

One of the reasons for drop in Integra sales around 2000 was also removal of the base models. And with RSX, Acura dropped even what would be LS model, and gave us the equivalents of GS (base) and GS-R (Type-S). So, volume wasn't anymore of a concern since TL was a huge success with the MY1999 launch.

BTW, even greater jump in Acura's sales happened from 2000 to 2005, a growth of 66K.

ateixeira · May 2006

That number may be artificially low. Didn't they start out selling 1996 models? I'm not sure when, but probably in the fall, i.e. less than a full year of sales.

Perhaps we should look at 1997, the first full year of sales.

-juice

varmint · May 2006

http://hondanews.com/CatID1007?mid=2003020542432&mime=asc

bumpy · May 2006

What, Acura in general? They started out back in 1986.

ateixeira · May 2006

2 typos on my part, I meant 1986/1987, not the 90s. My bad. :sick:

1986 was the first year, but it was not a full year of sales. So what I meant was we should look at 1987 as the first full year for sales, for comparison.

-juice

ateixeira · May 2006

Now we're talking, from that chart, they had about 53k sales in 1986. But it was a partial year.

The first full year was 1987, and sales were 109k.

So there really wasn't much growth until much later. In 1998, they still had 110k in sales, basically no real sustained growth after 11-12 years or so in the market. To make things worse, they had 2 models in 1987, but a full 6 models in 1998.

But that's when they really picked up. 2000, 2001, and 2004 were big growth years for Acura. And that's pretty much attributable to the TL, then the MDX, and then the TSX to a lesser extent. The TL and MDX keep growing, too.

I predict that the RDX will go a whole lot better than the SLX or CL ever did, so the future looks bright.

-juice

robertsmx · May 2006

For now, RDX will likely help maintain the sale number lost due to demise of RSX. However, it will be interesting to see what Acura does to grow further.

IMO, adding higher trims to both TSX and TL and tweaking RL are due. Besides, the possibility of a coupe or two in the lineup.

ateixeira · May 2006

TSX coupe perhaps. I'm sure they're hoping the RDX will bring new growth, and a coupe or some other model will pick up the RSX slack.

Prices and profit margins for the smaller RSX are lower anyway.

-juice

nwng · May 2006

a rwd coupe based on the s2k?

ateixeira · May 2006

As much as that is what *I* would like to see, a tiny 2 seater would not add any real sales volumes.

A 4 seat TSX coupe, to go up against the G35c and BMW 325i is what I had in mind. Those can actually get a bit of volume. Plus the segment is not really overcrowded at the price of the TSX, it's sort of in between the mainstream coupes and the luxury ones.

Is there a Euro Accord coupe? I know they have a wagon. How 'bout an Outback-like TSX wagon crossover?

-juice

dino001 · May 2006

Ohhh, I would like that - with manual of course. I would also take their regular wagon anytime.

Has Honda's run - run out?

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