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OK, so I don't do any serious off roading. I drive in snow, I drive through overgrown fields when hunting (often in areas I probably shouldn't while retrieving dead deer) and I tow a boat. I have neither a locker nor a LSD and I have never been stuck. I do use my head about what I get myself into.
How come none of you LSD fans mention the drawbacks to this system? How often do you have problems with the rear end? Do you feel comfortable with a large clutch pack slamming power back and forth all the time? How about its handling drawbacks on dry pavement in a corner? These are the reasons Toyota does not offer them in their trucks. Do you know more than Toyota on this one?
For me, I'm quite happy with the nice and simple open differential. If I was a hard core off road nut, I might think about a locker but I think it is over rated for most people.
From what taco owners posted on the ranger vs. tacoma board, Toyota doesn't offer a LSD in the Tacoma because they can't get them to last up to 150K miles.
BTW, from what I hear the LSD on the Ranger will last around 100K miles and costs about $500 to rebuild, which is probably around the same amount as having the timing belt replaced in an as-equipped vehicle around the 100K mark.
I also have an open differential. A LSD would be nice but unneeded for the most part, and I am not going to pay for options that I don't believe I need (yet, anyways until I move north to MN or WI). I've never been stuck. That's what the 4wd is for.
I won't disagree with you in COMPETITION situations, we, or at least I, was talking about real world use in a real world (read mass market) truck. I don't know anything about the locker that Toyota offer but I suspect that 5mph is about right for top speed and certainly straight line only is the case (obviously).
You will note that I stated that most of my offroading is in the winter, and bad weather offroasing does require a different style, not least an ability to keep the vehicle moving - despite your unnecessary vitriol this is something I KNOW.
If you want to talk about specialist rockhopping and mountain climbing I agree with you, however I suspect that that represents a tiny fraction of the off road driving that is done my Joe public.
For the mass market consumer I stand by every word I said, and I don't need to resort to personal attacks to do so.
Even in "real word" situations, a locker is so much STRONGER than a limited slip for getting unstuck. Say you are stuck in a mud bog on the side of the road. A locker will probably get you out. Limited slip wont.
Say you need to cross a muddy stream. The locker will help you TREMENDOUSLY. Limited slip will not.
How many times does one come across a mud bog on the side of the street? And if there was a mud bog on the side of the street, what kinduva person would try to drive through it? I think I'd have to sit myself down and have a good laugh at the person who got his pretty little truck stuck in a mud bog three feet from the side of a perfectly good road. Besides, isn't off-roading intended to be done where there are no roads? Offroading next to pavement has no purpose.
Spoog proves it once again!!! LOL, doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. A locker is superior to LSD for offroading. I have admitted this over and over again. But, A locker is extremely limited in speed, and direction and everyday functionality. A locker will turn both rear wheels at the same time, same rotation. For most offroader folks they will never take their trucks into places where a locker will actually get its full use. This is left up to the avid offroaders who put lockers on Jeeps and older 4x4's they don't mind roller or trashing or snorkling on the trails. Spoogs, mud bog was a very poor example, but I expect this from someone who dreams about offroading. A much better example is if one of your rear wheels has no traction along with your fronts having no traction. The one wheel in the rear that does have traction will turn and gain traction because both rear wheels are locked and turn at the same rotation and speed. On a LSD this cannot be done, only one wheel spins until it slips and engages the clutching mechanism of the other wheel. In an LSD you have to hope you get high ended on the wheel that has traction in a locker you don't have to worry about it. A LSD is much better for functionality and everyday use. Its available at anytime it doesn't have to be engaged. Its better for towing and hauling and everyday use. With the TRD package the locker goes open when not engaged. Sounds like your Toyota had an OPEN AXLE. Meaning only one wheel is really spinning and could not get traction on the boat ramp. A limitied slip would have also pulled your boat out too. When one tires begins to slip a clutch is engaged and starts both rear wheels spining. Spoog just doesn't get it. The TRD package is a marketing gimmick for MOST people. The sticker is pretty though. For that tiny fraction of people that will actually use this function of a locker, and know how to use it and when to use it, yes it is better than LSD.
Your confusing WHAT MOST PEOPLE DO with actual offroading. Because more people would use limited slip on the street, and less people use lockers, does not mean the limited slip is better for offroading. Hey Vinnie, go over to 4wheeler.com and PEtersons offroad and ask them if they think a LSD or locker is better for offroading. lol.
VINCE, when will you get it?
HEre is an exact quote from you:
"A LSD is much better for functionality and everyday use. Its available at anytime it doesn't have to be engaged. Its better for towing and hauling and everyday use. With the TRD package the locker goes open when not engaged."
Hey Vince..thatnks for proving my point!! lol!!!!!
"towing", and "everyday use" is not offroading. PLease get a clue before you post again.
NExt time, REPHRASE your comments to :
The LSD is better in everday use, because it is appplied to more everyday, useful functions.
I was talking about offroad Vinnie, NOT EVERYDAY use and towing and hauling.
My comments Were this:
\The Locker is far superior to the LSD for offroading.\
You failed to disprove this AT ALL in your post. lol!!! In fact, you basically agreed to this comment! You seem to think that because more people use LSD for everyday use, that it's better for offroading than a locker? What kind of logic is that? Your logic is SEVERLY impaired.
You were making some decent points until you threw in the cliche garbage about the TRD being a marketing gimmick and the idiotic "the sticker is pretty though" comment. I can respect most of the differing opinions about the Tacoma and the Ranger but not that stuff. At least come up with an original stupid comment for this forum. The TRD is not just a locker rear end but also a fully revamped suspension. The Ranger is a great truck but honestly doesn't come close to handling as good as a TRD Tacoma. The std. Tacoma doesn't either. Off-road, the regular Tacomas and the Rangers bounce and sway much more than a TRD. Whether you prefer the Tacoma or the Ranger, if you drive a TRD Tacoma vs. a Ranger or a std. Tacoma HARD off-road or on the road, and honestly test the vehicles, I can't see you not coming to the conclusion that the TRD is a much more maneuverable and controllable ride.
For the type of offroading that spoog is talking about I agree that a locker is better.
Where I disagree is when he says that that is what offroading is. Extreme offroading is not the only kind. Bear with me on this analogy.
If I asked you to name a fast car you would probably say Ferrari or Porsche or Corvette etc. Now to follow spoog's logic they aren't fast cars - to be fast it has to be extreme - just like to be called offroading it has to be extreme - so in spoog's world a fast car is one that competes for the land speed record, not one of those namby pamby mobile chicanes they use in Formula 1.
OK I know I am being slightly tongue in cheek, but my point is that most peoples' idea of offroading is not the extreme rockhopping or snorkelling where a locker really comes into its own.
Will a locker help get you out of the situations that spoog mentions, yes, but a limited slip will help keep you out of them in the first place.
I am an active sled dog racer and drive over some fairly inhospitable terrain. Lets get your locker up here and see how far you can get on 18 inches of powder - don't worry, I've got a winch!
Spoog, you didn't read very well. I have already admitted over and over again a locker is better than LSD for severe offroading. Facts show that a very small, small fraction of people actually take their 4x4's offroading, let alone into places a locker will get its full use. Fact is a LSD will suit most 4x4 folks just fine and its better than an OPEN AXLE that all Toyota's have other than the TRD.
Open axles are not a big deal. I don't know why you think it is. I have been on some pretty rough trails and have never wished I had a LSD. I have never gotten stuck and never had any problems with my open axles. I bet a LSD will get you out of very few spots an open axle won't. Only a locker will get you out of really rough spots, you said so yourself. That said, I don't have a locker and don't want one. They are unnecessary for anything I'll be doing (same with a winch).
Amen brother. Most mortals will never be in a situation to need either so I'll just stick with the more reliable open differential and wont complain about it.
it is unwieldy to manage, and difficult to use for "newbies." There is entirely TOO much topic duplication, so I will be doing some SERIOUS topic consolidation in the next few weeks, getting us down to not more than 2-3 topics per vehicle type, and ultimately down to 200 topics or less.
THIS weeks consolidation candidates are: Tundra's, Tacoma's and Rangers.
In that vein,please consolidate this Tacoma topic to Are You Happy with Tacoma - II and continue these discussions there.
Thanks!
Front Porch Philosopher SUV, Pickups, & Aftermarket and Accessories Host
Comments
How come none of you LSD fans mention the drawbacks to this system? How often do you have problems with the rear end? Do you feel comfortable with a large clutch pack slamming power back and forth all the time? How about its handling drawbacks on dry pavement in a corner? These are the reasons Toyota does not offer them in their trucks. Do you know more than Toyota on this one?
For me, I'm quite happy with the nice and simple open differential. If I was a hard core off road nut, I might think about a locker but I think it is over rated for most people.
BTW, from what I hear the LSD on the Ranger will last around 100K miles and costs about $500 to rebuild, which is probably around the same amount as having the timing belt replaced in an as-equipped vehicle around the 100K mark.
I also have an open differential. A LSD would be nice but unneeded for the most part, and I am not going to pay for options that I don't believe I need (yet, anyways until I move north to MN or WI). I've never been stuck. That's what the 4wd is for.
I won't disagree with you in COMPETITION situations, we, or at least I, was talking about real world use in a real world (read mass market) truck. I don't know anything about the locker that Toyota offer but I suspect that 5mph is about right for top speed and certainly straight line only is the case (obviously).
You will note that I stated that most of my offroading is in the winter, and bad weather offroasing does require a different style, not least an ability to keep the vehicle moving - despite your unnecessary vitriol this is something I KNOW.
If you want to talk about specialist rockhopping and mountain climbing I agree with you, however I suspect that that represents a tiny fraction of the off road driving that is done my Joe public.
For the mass market consumer I stand by every word I said, and I don't need to resort to personal attacks to do so.
Say you need to cross a muddy stream. The locker will help you TREMENDOUSLY. Limited slip will not.
If only the written word could convey sarcasm.
A locker is superior to LSD for offroading. I have admitted this over and over again. But, A locker is extremely limited in speed, and direction and everyday functionality. A locker will turn both rear wheels at the same time, same rotation. For most offroader folks they will never take their trucks into places where a locker will actually get its full use. This is left up to the avid offroaders who put lockers on Jeeps and older 4x4's they don't mind roller or trashing or snorkling on the trails. Spoogs, mud bog was a very poor example, but I expect this from someone who dreams about offroading. A much better example is if one of your rear wheels has no traction along with your fronts having no traction. The one wheel in the rear that does have traction will turn and gain traction because both rear wheels are locked and turn at the same rotation and speed. On a LSD this cannot be done, only one wheel spins until it slips and engages the clutching mechanism of the other wheel. In an LSD you have to hope you get high ended on the wheel that has traction in a locker you don't have to worry about it.
A LSD is much better for functionality and everyday use. Its available at anytime it doesn't have to be engaged. Its better for towing and hauling and everyday use. With the TRD package the locker goes open when not engaged.
Sounds like your Toyota had an OPEN AXLE. Meaning only one wheel is really spinning and could not get traction on the boat ramp. A limitied slip would have also pulled your boat out too. When one tires begins to slip a clutch is engaged and starts both rear wheels spining.
Spoog just doesn't get it. The TRD package is a marketing gimmick for MOST people. The sticker is pretty though. For that tiny fraction of people that will actually use this function of a locker, and know how to use it and when to use it, yes it is better than LSD.
Your confusing WHAT MOST PEOPLE DO with actual offroading. Because more people would use limited slip on the street, and less people use lockers, does not mean the limited slip is better for offroading. Hey Vinnie, go over to 4wheeler.com and PEtersons offroad and ask them if they think a LSD or locker is better for offroading. lol.
VINCE, when will you get it?
HEre is an exact quote from you:
"A LSD is much better for functionality and
everyday use. Its available at anytime it doesn't
have to be engaged. Its better for towing and
hauling and everyday use. With the TRD package the
locker goes open when not engaged."
Hey Vince..thatnks for proving my point!! lol!!!!!
"towing", and "everyday use" is not offroading. PLease get a clue before you post again.
NExt time, REPHRASE your comments to :
The LSD is better in everday use, because it is appplied to more everyday, useful functions.
I was talking about offroad Vinnie, NOT EVERYDAY use and towing and hauling.
My comments Were this:
\The Locker is far superior to the LSD for offroading.\
You failed to disprove this AT ALL in your post. lol!!! In fact, you basically agreed to this comment! You seem to think that because more people use LSD for everyday use, that it's better for offroading than a locker? What kind of logic is that? Your logic is SEVERLY impaired.
For the type of offroading that spoog is talking about I agree that a locker is better.
Where I disagree is when he says that that is what offroading is. Extreme offroading is not the only kind. Bear with me on this analogy.
If I asked you to name a fast car you would probably say Ferrari or Porsche or Corvette etc. Now to follow spoog's logic they aren't fast cars - to be fast it has to be extreme - just like to be called offroading it has to be extreme - so in spoog's world a fast car is one that competes for the land speed record, not one of those namby pamby mobile chicanes they use in Formula 1.
OK I know I am being slightly tongue in cheek, but my point is that most peoples' idea of offroading is not the extreme rockhopping or snorkelling where a locker really comes into its own.
Will a locker help get you out of the situations that spoog mentions, yes, but a limited slip will help keep you out of them in the first place.
I am an active sled dog racer and drive over some fairly inhospitable terrain. Lets get your locker up here and see how far you can get on 18 inches of powder - don't worry, I've got a winch!
it is unwieldy to manage, and difficult to use for "newbies." There is entirely TOO much topic duplication, so I will be doing some SERIOUS topic consolidation in the next few weeks, getting us down to not more than 2-3 topics per vehicle type, and ultimately down to 200 topics or less.
THIS weeks consolidation candidates are: Tundra's, Tacoma's and Rangers.
In that vein,please consolidate this Tacoma topic to Are You Happy with Tacoma - II and continue these discussions there.
Thanks!
Front Porch Philosopher
SUV, Pickups, & Aftermarket and Accessories Host