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Also do note that service departments don't "pre-fix" possible issues unless they are full vehicle recalls... nobody fixes things that are not known to be broken. Well, unless they are trying to scam the vehicle manufacturer. :P
Any suggestion?
ALR
ALR
you're familiar with chipped windshields...I've had some windshields replaced
because of cracking and other times I've just repaired the chip... If there's no cracking, I would opt just for chip repair, to insure the integrity of the windshield seal....
I've never had the chip repair fail, or affect the windshield's heating performance.
If you do chose to replace the windshield, make sure you talk to your dealer to find a LR experienced windshield repair shop.
The tolerances are so tight on modern engines that except for the initial break procedure at the factory you don't need to do anything. Land Rover does not even give any break in procedure recomendations and the advice I have gotten from our shop foreman is that you should drive the vehicle the way you always intend to drive it from the get go. If you are going to drive it hard then drive it hard right away but I would recomend that the engine was properly warmed up.
I am still kind of split if this is the best procedure or not to do since although the engine does not really need a break in the brakes, transmission and differientals still need to be broken in some. No matter how well those things are machined they still need some drive time to bed and seat in all the way.
So in my opinion I do not completly agree with our shop foreman. I think for the first 500 or so miles drive smoothly with varied RPM's to break in the transmission, differientals and brakes but then after that drive the vehicle normaly.
Now back to the other problem that started all of this. My wife and I just traded in our 03' Disco for the LR3. We purchase one of the demo cars that they were getting rid of. The vehicle had 9K in mileage when we bought it. Before we bought it, we heard a funny noise when the engine started. The sales guide said that we were holding the key in the start position for too long when turning it over. Kinda hard to do when you have one-touch starting installed. We didn't have much time to work it out as we wanted the car to take on a trip from Denver to Lake Tahoe the next week. They scheduled the appointment for a couple of days after we returned and said that they saw no real issue with taking the car 2500 miles in a week. We arrived back from our trip with no issues. We returned the car to have it looked at. The technician had no idea what the noise was. They said to return in a week while they talked to the factory about the problem. We had the car for 25 days when I dropped it off. I now have been without the vehicle for 22 days today. They said that it was the timing chain and the timing chain tensioner for the variable cam. I am now approaching that fact that my car has been in the shop for half the time I have owned it and I am not very happy about it. There is no doubt that we love this vehicle. Driving in town or in the rocky mountains outside Denver, it performs flawlessly, even when not running correctly. Has anyone else had the problem with the timing chain?
Where do you get this stuff? A tabloid? FOX news? Or a Land Rover dealer? (Which might be worse.) :P Do a search here regarding the recall. The official documents have the "real" details. Don't spread misinformation.
One more time: http://199.79.180.163/prepos/files/Artemis/Public/Recalls/2005/V/RCDNN-05V376-1657.PDF
I think that says it all folks :confuse:
to the LR3 owner who is on his 4th Rover, i believe the owner's manual explicitly states using higher octane fuel. Regarding your post, it appears that if your wife had been running regular octane fuel, then that would contribute to the problems of idle, starting, economy, performance. (Please research octane and how it relates to your engine's efficiency and performance) True some SAE's have stated with knock sensors, a motor can compensate but this is not always the case. The ECU is specifically mapped to using this octane level to achieve the ratings of HP and torque for this vehicle.
This may sound like a rant..and it is. How many are actually reading their owner's manuals? Recently the posts have taken on the "if i paid x amount of $$$ then my expectations are ad nauseum ad infinitum" Every new vehicle will have 1st year teething problems. If it's still under warranty which i would presume that they are since the LR3 is only about 1 year old, then get it fixed. If it's a purge valve, fuel tank problem, there is obviously a fix available. If you go in with the aforementioned attitude then of course the sales/service will probably dismiss you. They are human after all.
I'm fortunate to own and drive the vehicles i have and each one requires a different learning curve. I've also learned to turn a wrench and get my hands dirty in the pursuit of knowing as much as i can about my cars. If your gripe/rationale relates to money spent then perhaps you should consider a bicycle or drive something a bit more pedestrian. The LR3 is rather advanced and there's no doubt in my mind that any vehicle that utilizes so many electronic assists, will give a problem here or there esp. in first year..and maybe it's second and third
"I think that says it all folks "
This is not true as stated in previous threads and on The NHTSA.
Please see the actual recall information and stop spreading errornous information.
Make : LAND ROVER Model : LR3 Year : 2005
Manufacturer : LAND ROVER
NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number : 05V376000 Mfg's Report Date : AUG 26, 2005
Component: FUEL SYSTEM, GASOLINE:STORAGE
Potential Number Of Units Affected : 17263
Summary:
SOME SPORT UTILITY VEHICLES MAY HAVE FUEL TANKS THAT CONTAIN AN INTERNAL BREATHER PIPE THAT WAS NOT MADE TO SPECIFICATION. THIS COULD RESULT IN EXCESSIVE SWELLING AND CRACKING OF A GROMMET AND SUBSEQUENT DETACHMENT OF THE BREATHER PIPE FROM A CONNECTOR TUBE. WHEN THE FUEL LEVEL IN THE TANK IS ABOVE THE LEVEL OF THE DETACHED JOINT, FUEL MAY THEN ENTER THE BREATHER PIPE.
Consequence:
THE VEHICLE MAY EXHIBIT MIL ILLUMINATION, FUEL ODOR, DRIVABILITY CONCERNS SUCH AS HESITATION, MISFIRE, STALLING, ROUGH RUNNING, OR DIFFICULTY IN STARTING. IF THE AMOUNT OF FUEL FLOWING INTO THE BREATHER PIPE REACHES THE VAPOR CANISTER AND EXCEEDS ITS CAPACITY, THE EXCESS FUEL MAY BE DISCHARGED ONTO THE GROUND. FUEL LEAKAGE IN THE PRESENCE OF AN IGNITION SOURCE COULD RESULT IN A FIRE.
Remedy:
DEALERS WILL REPLACE THE FUEL TANKS. THE RECALL IS EXPECTED TO BEGIN ON OCTOBER 14, 2005. OWNERS SHOULD CONTACT LAND ROVER AT 1-800-637-6837.
Notes:
LAND ROVER RECALL NO. B016. CUSTOMERS CAN ALSO CONTACT THE NATIONAL HIGHWAY TRAFFIC SAFETY ADMINISTRATION'S VEHICLE SAFETY HOTLINE AT 1-888-327-4236 (TTY 1-800-424-9153), OR GO TO HTTP://WWW.SAFERCAR.GOV.
This says it could start a fire. Does anyone see where is say 90 degrees ? Does anyone see where it says during refilling?
Then again if it is on the internet in any form it must be true.....
Please don't assume that what appears abnormal to some, is necessarily wrong, or even crazy. Just when you think that says it all...
I don't perceive it as matters of protocol, procedure or custom. This just appears to be lack of good common sense. No matter what part of the world you're in.
If i remember my basic physics properly...(it's been a while )
Vapour and Flash fires from fumes require spark. Explosions (in this case gasoline fumes) are caused by the buildup of pressure due to expansion and the resultant rapid release conversion into kinetic energy by combustion initiated by ignition.
At any rate, that is it. I am off now, not to post until I see what appears to be the inevitable fuel tank/leak issues arising!
I think you need to research octane yourself first before hurling stones at someone else's lack of knowledge. The octane of a fuel relates to its tendency to pre-ignite, and is used in higher performance engines that create combinations of heat and pressure in the cylinder that may lead to pre-ignition. It has absolutely nothing to do with starting,idling, or economy. If this new LR motor is like many newer ones, its knock sensor will retard the timing, throttle, or other engine parameters when it detects engine knock to prevent damage to the engine. This is going to be on the top end of performance, though, or when the engine is hot and under a heavy load. For the vast majority of people, they will never notice the few HP lost to lower octane. Despite all of the bull crap you read on these boards about how people gained 5 mpg by switching to premium, the real scientists have proven that higher octane stops pre-ignition, and that's all.
The other issue I feel compelled to comment on, somewhat unrelated to this post, is the amount of effort by some LR owners, and other owners of vehicles with not-so-good reliability records, to dismiss those with problems as "trolls," uninformed, FUD spreaders, or other name calling. Individual owners do generally own one vehicle of a kind, which is not a statistical sample. Land Rover, as a brand, has been toward the bottom of statistical reliability. Justify your individual luck however you want, but statistically, one buying a Land Rover is rolling the dice, relatively speaking.
That's fine with me, though. We all can buy whatever we want (or can afford) in America. If the positive aspects of the vehicle are more meaningful than the issues, then you will enjoy the car just like a Corvette owner. I, for one, bought a Land Cruiser because I could not stand the issues faced by many on this board. It also has issues, but reliability is typically not one of them.
I suspect that I will be labeled as spreading FUD, but this is my $0.02. With some facts about octane.
Regards,
Tom
You are a lurker no longer - welcome aboard and thanks for your insight!
tidester, host
Thanks for the insight Serranot and here's my response.
The octane rating of gasoline tells you how much the fuel can be compressed before it spontaneously ignites. When gas ignites by compression rather than because of the spark from the spark plug, it causes knocking in the engine. Knocking can damage an engine, so it is not something you want to have happening. Lower-octane gas (like "regular" 87-octane gasoline) can handle the least amount of compression before igniting.
Perhaps i should have been more explicit but i do understand what the rating figure means and how it will affect the performance of a motor. I believe if you look for it, you'll find at least one engineer who will state that the fuel octane requirement listed in a hi-po motor in standard (re: non racing) consumer grade produced motors (such as a sports car etc) has the premium fuel requirement to optimize performance and economy of the engine. They will further state that the knock sensors should compensate when the motor, for lack of a better term, "recognizes" the lower octane. The sales literature usu. says nothing due to the assumption that the consumer will certainly follow the guideline regarding fuel grade.
What both sources do NOT tell you is the compression ratio of your engine determines the octane rating of the gas you must use in the car. So it follows..higher compression, higher octane/per given engine weight etc.
My stance on the issue is simply, a lot of motorists will try to "save" a few pennies which i'm sure lately in the states is the norm, by filling up with regular grade fuel instead of premium.
Now with that bit of information, from personal experience using various octane grades WILL affect the areas of performance and economy although for some not necessarily all areas as listed in my previous post. This isn't in all cars however, (my mx5 na miata obviously will have no advantage using a higher octane but my z32 300zx suffers (hesitation when starting and rough idle) when using lower octane. My e46 bimmers also suffer from using lower octane and have experienced on more than one occasion a very rough ignition using lower octane as an experiment. The problem immediately resolves after flushing the fuel or running it out completely (usu. after 2-3 tanks) and returning to required octane.
Am i wrong in observing that "retarding timing, throttle and other engine parameters" will not affect the nominal performance aspect of a motor?
Steve, Host
However, there is not a production vehicle made that won't idle well on 87 octane gas, assuming it is in a proper state of tune. The compression ratio listed for a vehicle, in this case 10.8 to 1, is the theoretical maximum. When you consider pumping losses and the fact that there is a big throttle plate in the way of the air of a gasoline engine running at idle, you are not going to have the air that's in there compressed anywhere near it's maximum theoretical ratio. If you think about it, a higher octane gas is more resistant to igniting than a lower octane. So I think "rough idle" has zero to do with octane and more to do with some other factor. If there is a petroleum engineer here on the boards, I would like to hear the theory of why higher octane gas would cause the engine to run better. I don't want to insult anybody, but I tend to believe that your autos are starting and idling poorly because of some other factor. I've owned everything from a modern Corvette to a Boxster S, all run a variety of grades, and idling characteristics were the same on any grade of gas.
Engine knock sensors are like little microphones that hear the noise associated with detonation in order to affect engine parameters. They don't sample the fuel grade in the tank or anything like that. If your cars are detonating at idle, there is something wrong with them that transcends fuel grade. Unless there is detonation, the engine has no clue what's in the tank.
Now then, I also support using what the manufacturer says to use for grade of fuel. If you are going to pay good money for the vehicle, then you should use the right gas for it and not cheap out.
Sorry, mods, for getting off-topic. I'm done talking about this on this particular board.
Regards,
Tom
For the uninitiated, car engines nowadays contain knock sensors that detect detonation and automatically retard the spark to compensate. For engines that require higher octane levels as specified by the manufacturer, the delay means maximum gas expansion occurs when the piston is farther along in its downstroke and thus there's more room in the cylinder head. Logically, this reduces peak cylinder pressure, eliminating knock but also giving you less power and poorer mileage.
We might have to agree to disagree on some points. :surprise: Also wanted to clarify that my initial post was centering on this last point regarding the LR owner whose wife apparently was using the non specified fuel in her vehicle which precipitated the whole discussion regarding octane ratings.
Went off-roading yesterday to try out the rear diff lock function - and it all works great - what an amazing "delivery van". I also found out that my $54,000 vehicle is now worth $ 38,000 on trade-in...bummer - looking at new Corvette.. if I traded though, I would have to turn around and buy another LR, a DII, because that is what I really want. As nice as the LR3 is, it does nothing for me emotionally - like my previous Discoveries...
I've seen 06 LR3 V6 premium package with seat lumbar adjustment. I have an early HSE 06 (build july 05) without the lumbar adjustment. Do you think that it is a mistake in the earlier model of the production. I can't imagine why Landrover will remove the lumbar adjustment in 06 model. Maybe to compensate for the bluetooth and the front parking distance addition!!
Miniland
It's not recommended to top up a gas tank after it clicks off since the vapor recovery system may not be able to handle the fumes. But if your check engine light isn't going off, maybe you're aren't that close to over filling it.
Steve, Host
I did my first oil change last night at 3750 miles - what a major PAIN. The LR oil filter at the dealer was to cost me $ 26.95 but I raised so much hell the parts manager decided to let me have it for $ 16.77 to get my loud mouth out the door. You also have to buy a new oilpan drain plug for 4 bucks - they now have an integrated rubber oil seal built in - what was wrong with a 10 cent washer ?
The skid plates are heavy and near impossibel to remove and reinstall while flat on your back in the dirt..be sure the vehicle is fully raised also or it's even more difficult.
The oil shoots out towards the front about 3 feet, so be careful there , and it's 8 quarts. The filter is also near impossible to get to because of the oil cooler lines - another major fubar..Next time I'll pay whatever the cost and let the dealer do it so I don't have to sweat for 2 hours..good thing is that all "scheduled" services are free - but I never go more than 3750 miles on any oil, even the fully synthetic I use in my Toyota Truck.
Happy rovering to you all - and good luck to those of you having problems..
As is typical for Land Rover, they get the owner's guide wrong, too... the North America '06 guide documents "electric" lumbar controls, like the Range Rove Sport has. Too bad none of the LR3s have them. :mad:
Having PTI/Bluetooth forced on you and getting Front PDC (HSE only) is no compensation in '06, since they charge you for those features. :P
I got my license in '67 so it looks like both of us are "of an age." I drove some family rides until '73, and have only had ~12 cars since '73 (and two of those I rarely drove). I started doing my own oil changes on my '74 CJ-5; it was simple since it was easy to crawl under and the skid plates weren't in the way.
$27 for an oil filter is nuts! Actually $16.77 is a bit out there. I've been on 5 or 7,500 mile oil change intervals since the early 90's and paying that much for filters would really cramp my frugal nature.
I suppose a Futomo valve could help the shooting oil issue if you don't off-road a lot, but it wouldn't help the filter issue.
Enjoy the ride!
Steve, Host
Warranty coverage can't be denied for the use of non-OE parts unless they can be proved to be the cause of the problem. Likewise, you can do your own servicing without worry on the same basis.
I'm taking the LR3 in Tuesday to get that horrible steering wheel noise fixed - it sound like opening an old door in a spook house..other than that, it's still perfect. I did notice however that the steering feels "loose" and makes severe clunking noises when you go over very rough, rocky ground off-road. And when the HDC kicks in, it sounds like you are inside of a rock crusher. But it all works...
Yep, "Host", we are getting to be very mature dogs..keep up the great site !!
I am sure the same thing happend with the LR3. I know the original filters for the AJV8 Jag motor have been avaliable on the aftermarket for a while but I am pretty sure the Jag filter is not the same as the filter used on the LR3.
One thing I don't understand....why would you change synthetic oil before it's time? If you like changing oil so often, why not just put regular oil in and save the cost of the synthetic. Seems like the synthetic oil is being wasted here.
Here in California, the gas nozzles are made where over-flow gas will be drained back in the under ground tank so that it's not spilled on the ground. The meter still runs for gas that you have put back to be re-sold. Just because you have done things for 38 years one way, doesn't mean it's right. :P
Mark
The other problem when you don't change it yourself is knowing what oil the dealer or lube place actually put in. Most dealers buy bulk oil by the 55 gallon barrel and many of them reportedly use 10W30 for every vehicle, no matter what the manufacturer recommends. Enough people may be on to that issue now though.
Guess I should post the oil wars links for those wanting some weekend reading:
Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2
Synthetic motor oil
Steve, Host
Oh I gorgot, it still dies and when it wants to on the highway, they said it was a faulty fuel pump, now I am told it is a faulty ground.
Anyone else have these problems???
This model should be recalled!!!!!
They definitely have a problem with this model and for some reason refuse to admit it, and all owners have to wait on hold for customer service to do nothing!
:lemon:
I use regular 5W-30 Castrol in the LR3, again with a 3750 mile change interval. Oil is cheap...comparatively speaking...
You don't have to wait to pull the pan though to see how your oil and engine are doing; you can get your oil analyzed for around ten bucks.
Steve, Host