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The Great Hybrid Battery Debate
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http://www.toyota.com/about/environment/technology/2004/hybrid.ht- ml
Culliganman (appreciation to you)
troy
New technology offers charging time in minutes instead of hours and 3 times the power.
Wonderful.
http://www.toyota.com/about/environment/technology/2004/hybrid.ht- ml
"second-generation model battery is 15% smaller, 25% lighter, and has 35% more specific power than the first. "
"Between the 2003 and 2004 models, service battery costs came down 36%"
So far we thought that gas prices going up will make the hybrids get the Return on Investment, now the decline in battery prices will achieve it.
troy
I live in windsor, canada and i'm looking at buying a used 2001 prius that has 90000K on it and has just come back from lease to a single owner.it is priced at 16000 CAD negotiable. What is your opinion on its reliability and its price worth? What costs am I looking at in terms of maintenance and repairs and engine, transmission failures and importantly battery failures? Wat is the max life of that battery? u had said it will never fail...warranty is only for 8yrs and 5yrs is already up. pls reply at ur earliest.
helena
As to the 1st Gen Prius, well, its still up for grabs as to the longevity of the hybrid system. I own a 2nd Gen Prius and think that Toyota makes & stands behind a quality product. As to the price of the 01 I'd say....check blue book, find anything in ads that show what they're selling for. Lastly walk away if you think they won't drop the price. You can always come back to RENEGOTIATE.
Personally I think it's too high a price unless they include a warrantee after the existing one runs out (2yr is reasonable).
PS read up on some these sites to get to know the car.
Culliganman
Make sure it's been serviced for the various recall/TSB issues (Steering Rack, HV battery re-seal) and that it has had all its scheduled maintenance. Frankly apart from the battery there just isn't much to go wrong on these cars.
As far as servicing, there is only one extra item in the routine services compared to a "regular" car. The motor/electronics coolant system needs to be serviced at the same interval as the engine coolant. There is no service interval specified for the transaxle fluid (it suffers none of the loads found in a regular transmission so it should last a very long time). There is also no scheduled maintenance on the steering since it is not hydraulic.
Having said that some independent mechanics might hesitate to offer service on the Prius because it's an unknown quantity to them. I've found in general the service at my Toyota dealer to be reasonably priced so I have not been inclined to look elsewhere. They've also done a good job of going to bat for me on getting items taken care of under warranty.
I have had no battery trouble, however some people have had issues with the small, 12v auxiliary battery running down on them. The key to this appears to be getting the car out on the road for an extended drive (over 30 minutes) on a regular basis (weekly?) so the auxiliary battery has a chance to fully charge. An upgraded battery is available but if not under warranty the price is over $200 US by the time you buy the battery and the mounting kit. There was a Service Campaign on the HV battery because there were issues with the sealing of the terminals, but Toyota has yet to replace a HV battery pack due to it wearing out.
FWIW Consumer Reports has thus far rated Prius as above average in reliability. My experience concurs with this rating...
http://tinyurl.com/5265y
Welcome to the forum. I can understand your skepticism. That is one thing that has a good warranty. The $300 startup battery does not have a good warranty and have had to be replaced at the owners expense. The rest of your post I think you lost me, or I am getting blurry eyed from all the debating here on the forum...
I thought the current hybrid batteries were supposed to last 10 years. At least they better if the car is registered in CA. They have a mandatory 10 yr 150k mile warranty on any car they give the AT-PZEV rating to. That is supposed to cover any part that can keep the car from getting that rating. I would assume the entire hybrid drive train, cat convertor, electronics etc...
P.S. In the great words of Paul Newman...(guess what movie) "What we have here is failure to communicate!"
Culliganman (sometimes ya just have to say #@%#*
(quoted TOM CRUISE)
(Cool Hand Luke)
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So its time for automakers to consider Li-Ion before moving to plugins.
I agree, and at that time I may be convinced of the worth of a hybrid. I want my 3 mile round trip to the store on Electric only. Until then an ICE only vehicle is a more reliable, practical solution.
No, until then automakers should be improving the hybrid system and battery.
Already the battery output have increased by 60 % with significant improvement in hybrid system. At 1 point, a battery that could move a vehicle for 20 miles will cost only 5K.
That extra money will be recovered by cheaper electricity rates.
Its alway one step at a time.
According to Toyota Parts list for the Prius the battery is $4900, so what is the difference. If it will carry me 20 miles before the ICE kicks in that would be good enough for 99% of my driving.
LiIon has some problems, like LIthium is a nasty material to deal with. NiMH batteries are non-toxic.
What does it cost today? And how much does it weigh? What good is a battery that will take you 20 miles if it makes the car to heavy to carry anything?
Car design is the art of compromises. You have to choose the point on the curve where the advantages balance out (or outstrip) the disadvantages. Carmakers have staffs that worry about this balance every day.
Not too good. That is part of my complaint with the current and proposed hybrids. They are not competitive with plain old ICE vehicles in any area except better gas mileage, maybe. They cannot haul or tow as much as their non-hybrid counterparts. Until the problems with energy storage are resolved they are just experimental and the owners are guinea pigs.
And those who have a big suv filling 30 gallons of fuel @ $2.1 is Guinea Pig Squared.
And that automaker who gambled on SUV / SUT (especially Hummer) is Guinea Pig Cubed.
We got to see how many battery modules are employed in RX400h. That will give us an idea of the level of improvement.
How is that important. If the car can only go a very short distance (under a mile) how does the cost justify the added cost, weight, lack of ability?
People who do "real work", like farming, should stick to the non-hybrid pickups and suvs, with some real power.
troy
Exactly, so why buy a vehicle that just looks like it will do what you want, when a car will get better efficiency and haul people just fine? Of course that does not address the issue of having enough battery to haul us to the store and back. Then have the ability to plug the car into AC and beat OPEC out of all the money. Sounds like GM was just a few years ahead of the need and the technology with the EV-1.
GAGRICE: "Exactly, so why buy a vehicle that just looks like it will do what you want, when a car will get better efficiency and haul people just fine?"
==============================================
Because the Car Marketing Machine has very effectively convinced people that a "car is too small" and "you need a large SUV" to "navigate the urban jungle". You're right. 80% of Americans DON'T need an SUV, hybrid or otherwise. They only think they do.
They could get along just fine with a 4-door car (as did my parents & grandparents).
troy
That true, infact an even smaller hatchback like Scion xA, xB which has more cargo capacity than a much bigger sedan like Corolla, Civic will be better.
As gas prices increase, big suv's sales fall. Like the 30% fall in Jan-Feb 2005.
Prius-I and Insight
http://www.peve.panasonic.co.jp/catalog/e_maru.html
Prius-II and Civic Hybrid
http://www.peve.panasonic.co.jp/catalog/e_kaku.html
Ford Escape Hybrid
http://www.sanyo.co.jp/koho/hypertext4-eng/0101news-e/0105-e.html
indicate that latest batteries are in cuboidal shape which has more volume than the older batteries which are in a cylindrical shape.
Similarly boxy vehicles like Escape, Highlander and a whole lot of CUV's have more volume (both passenger & cargo) than a comparitive sized sedan.
Maxlibu-Maxx & Malibu-Sedan is the best example.
And again the naysayers take axception. My understanding is that the batteries in the Prius II are completely re-designed from the Classic. The Prius II is not two years old yet. The ONLY reason that Toyota backed the traction battery with an 8 or 10 year warranty was to get the EPA blessing on the AT-PZEV rating. Secondly exchanging individual cells in a battery is not a plug n play operation. Also if one cell goes bad the rest are not far behind. You forgot the 12 volt battery that costs $300 to replace. It has no long warranty, what's with that?
The good news is the warranty. The bad news is the resale when the warranty expires. We have already witnessed very low selling prices on Classic Prius with mileage close to 100k miles. Don't plan to get blue book on your Prius when it reaches that magic 100k mile mark. You will take a big hit if you decide to sell.
FWIW I don't expect to see individual battery modules replaced in the field. I do expect that when batteries are sent back to the factory for rebuilding that each module would be tested and sets of modules with like performance characteristics would be built into reconditioned packs.
Relatively few people have had trouble with the 12v battery. There is a TSB on the battery so if there is a problem during the b2b warranty period they can get it replaced. To my knowledge there has not been a problem with the 12v battery in the current model Prius, only the Classic, and then only in cars that are not driven for a 30 minute stretch every week or so.
"Last year, Toyota couldn't keep up with the number of orders received, according to Brown. The problem was battery production by Panasonic. The electronics company has since solved the crisis by opening a new plant specifically to make hybrid vehicle batteries."
http://www.gillettenewsrecord.com/articles/2005/03/27/news/news01.txt
.
And then what? It's still a NiMH battery... same chemistry as the Old Prius... which has been around for 8 years.
troy
says
"improvements to the hybrid system for the SUVs are batteries that are 22 percent more compact and offer 30 percent greater power density than those in the Prius"
Battery technology is steadily improving and that is what is helping these heavy vehicles get near 30 MPG.
Toshiba develops Li-Ion battery that can be charged upto 80% in 1 minute.
Expected to come to market in 2006.
"The NiMH HV battery pack contains sealed batteries that are similar
to rechargeable batteries used in laptop computers, cell phones, and
other consumer products. The electrolyte is absorbed in the cell
plates and will not normally leak out even if the battery is cracked. In
the unlikely event the electrolyte does leak, it can be easily
neutralized with a dilute boric acid solution or vinegar."
No mention of HAZMAT required.
The Escape emergency response guide says "The battery cells contain a base electrolyte (consisting of potassium hydroxide as the dominant active ingredient) that is absorbed in a special paper. The electrolyte will not leak from the battery under most conditions; however if the battery is crushed, it is possible for a small amount (drops) of electrolyte to leak."
and
"3. WHAT DO I DO IF THE HIGH VOLTAGE BATTERY CASE HAS BEEN
RUPTURED?
• Just like any other battery - hose the area down with large amounts of water."
No mention of HAZMAT.
.
More importantly, charging in 1 minute allows Electric Cars to have ***unlimited range***. You can drive ~250 miles, and then recharge your battery while drinking the 7-11 Coffee.
troy
What? The Prius will only go a couple of miles on the main battery without having to charge it... The electric cars only went 80 miles or so...
Then you have to wait 8 hours for recharge.
That's why Electrics are not practical for long trips to see grandma or the beach. Only a gasoline car can do it.
.
BUT if you can recharge the battery in only 1 minute, your electric car now has the same capability as a gasoline car.
troy
Close, but no cigar. The electric car has to stop, connect to an electric grid, then start back up. Gasoline cars can keep going until they run out of fuel, which is generally around 400-500 miles. I'll grant you the similarities, though, since 1 minute isn't a bad recharge time. However, I'm wondering if that new technology would charge the entire pack that rapidly.
What electric car currently goes 250 miles? The EV-1 maxed out at under 100...
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If I get bored later I'll find a napkin to scribble on, but my gut tells me that if you tried it you might brown out the grid for a mile around