Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

kyfdx · June 2007

When you have a compulsion, excuses are easy to come by... :surprise:

woodyww · June 2007

We all know what happens when we start going into BMW dealerships. Or God Forbid, test drive one, or a few. I'd include Audis. I don't even go into Porsche dealerships---I'm afraid of what might happen....

I'm gonna renew my bmwcca membership. I know I shouldn't.....but it did get me a $500 rebate on my last CPO bmw.....unfortunately the Roundel mag. just fuels the addiction.....beautiful magazine BTW.

growwise · June 2007

There are plenty of 5-series bimmers around here in Toronto... Either that or I am noticing them more. I am surprised because they cost a whopping 80 grand :confuse: (CAD ofcourse).

BTW, there are some pics floating around for some time now of next gen 5 series. Not sure if they are true..

http://www.automotorsport.se/bigpix/2007/BMW5ny_bak_stor.jpg

http://www.automotorsport.se/bigpix/2007/BMW5ny_front_stor.jpg

guss · June 2007

Thank goodness Bangle is not designing BMW's any more. That 5 series is absolutely gorgeous.

It looks like the dark days of goofy rear ends are over for BMW.

Now I just have to check under my mattress for that $65 grand I misplaced.

fintail · June 2007

Dame Edna's eyebrows are almost gone

michaellno · June 2007

Well, it's official (we think). My son, after screwing around most of his scholastic career, has passed his courses and is graduating HS on Friday.

This means that Barney, the purple (plum?) '92 Subaru Legacy wagon we inherited from my FIL last year, is going to California as a graduation gift. I leave tomorrow afternoon for an 1100 mile drive from Colorado. I'm hoping to get to either Green River, UT (370 miles) or Richfield, UT (493 miles) tomorrow, and drive the rest on Thursday.

I'm pretty confident about the trip. Everything seems to be in working order. The couple of tanks of gas that I've tracked show around 25MPG or so .. be interesting to see if it goes up on the highway.

Any thoughts as to what I should bring with me? I figure I can get most anything I might need along the way (oil, etc.), but the last time I did a long road trip by myself was 1993 when I moved to Colorado from California. But, I did that trip in my '91 Sentra that had about 40K on it, not the 140K that the Subie has.

But, the Subie has both A/C and cruise; the Sentra had neither.

I'll have my laptop with me, so if I get a chance, I'll post my trip notes on-line. Otherwise, I'm gone until next week.

Don't anybody go buyin' anything while I'm gone!

[Deleted User] · June 2007

Don't anybody go buyin' anything while I'm gone!

Now you know you can't say something like that here

I've been seriously contemplating one of those Accord leases, or a TSX, but we'll see.

Congratulaitons to your son, hope he enjoys his gift and you enjoy your travels getting it to him.

lilengineerboy · June 2007

Bring water for you and snacks for you. Plan on the possibility of being stuck somewhere for 6-8hrs on the freeway, in your car (truck crash closes highway, really nasty weather, wildfires, etc). This can also be important for breakdowns. A cell phone/AAA is nice to have too.

You can also think about basic things you will want to have in the car -
-oil (and maybe an extra filter),
-water (water works better than antifreeze in a compromised cooling system),
-duct tape or hose repair tape (same stuff),
-emergency serpentine belt,
-small air compressor

And some pre-flight checks-
- make sure the spare is inflated to its recommended pressure and that it holds air
- and while you are at it, check all the tires (good for MPGs too).
- do a walk-around and make sure all the lights are working properly, all the trim is on good, the tires look okay, etc, and this is especially important with an older vehicle.

Then sit back and enjoy the ride.

woodyww · June 2007

"Maybe"--if used E60's depreciate to the point that they're in the low $30K's--for a nice one with warranty left--I'd get way more interested. Or if they prove to be not too troublesome, a really nice one out-of-warranty for less $$ would appeal. I'd want a wagon.

For now, I'm still fairly hooked on the whole E39 5-series thing. Esp. for the prices they go for now, except for the M5 probably.

I have "a list" of possible used 2nd-car bmw's I want: Z4. E46 convert or coupe w/stick & SPP. Restored 2002 is way less practical, but? 8-series: I'd kill for a really nice, not-too high mileage one, but I think you'd have to have a very serious maintenence budget.

I'm almost afraid to use the excuse of "I'm just going to go look at a current gen 5-series, but I won't buy one".....after all, what can "just looking" hurt? Right.

woodyww · June 2007

Do you have: AAA, or similar plan? Cell phone (I'm sure you do). A really basic set of tools, & good flashlight(s)? You mentioned oil--a car of that age, you might need cans of oil, 'cause you never know where or when. Gallon jugs of water; in case the cooling system springs a leak, that can get you to the next town. And check the hoses & belts & thermostat even.

Sounds like a fun trip, good luck!

lilengineerboy · June 2007

8-series: I'd kill for a really nice, not-too high mileage one, but I think you'd have to have a very serious maintenance budget.

Yeah. Big time. Although the 840 is the V8 and might not be as bad as the 850.

stickguy · June 2007

for my son. I'm almost getting the shakes thinking about going out to look at old used cars (brings me back to my misspent youth).

FOund (for sale sign, in front of a house) a '93 Accord LX 4 door. Seemed to be in OK shape from a quick looksie.

Called, and it has ~115K on it. A 5 speed, of course.

Could be just the ticket for a 16 yo learning to drive! Best clutch/shifter combo to learn on, a nice manageable size, not too fast.

Still need to go see it, but the owner is asking $1,600 for it, which seems reasonable if it is a strong runner.

kyfdx · June 2007

Those are nice looking...

But, guessing they are a photoshop of the current 3-series coupe... Just added two rear doors..

New 5-series? Probably 2010 model, given current re-design time frames.

lilengineerboy · June 2007

Could be just the ticket for a 16 yo learning to drive! Best clutch/shifter combo to learn on, a nice manageable size, not too fast.

You might want to go drive it before you decide that, my 93 Accord has the worst clutch of any car I've ever driven. Its very prone to chatter, but to its credit, it hasn't gotten worse since the car was new (something about starting mediocre).

You should check out the Honda Accord 90-93 repair questions forum. Front brakes are a miserable job, but out side of that, the cars are pretty easy to work on and maintain.

I would make sure the timing belt has been changed (and the waterpump) as well as the counterbalance shaft and cam seals. Otherwise, add ~$800 to the cost of the car.

Oh and the midwestern ones seem to require AC system work (retrofit can be $$), while the west coast ones require more cooling system work (new radiator...<$100, he can do it, not too bad).

stickguy · June 2007

I only drove one from the generation once, and it was new, but traditionally they have sweet shifter/clutch combos.

I also haven't spent much time with old cars in many years, so it may be a shock. If nothing else, will be interesting!

I don't see it until tomorrow, so that's when I will find out what if any maintenance they have done.

Nice thing about this many miles, on an Accord, is that the car could have plenty of life let. But, even better, if it received normal maintenance, all the good stuff (timing belt, etc.) would have been done.

Anyway, in this price range, I would expect to have to do some minor stuff. Just don't want to get into a money pit. ALthough one with 80-90K might be worse, if the owners never did anything other than OFL, it could need everything.

Finally, it will be his HS, learn to drive car, so probably won't get more than a couple thousand miles a year on it. Might go a different way if it was for me, and I had to put 15K a year highway on it.

My best hope is that it is an original owner, been in the family car, although I am not counting on it.

He really doesn't need it now. Probably won't even have his permit until August, and the only purpose of this car is so that I don't have to let him drive mine! He can't solo until this time next year anyway.

michaellno · June 2007

stickguy ... i owned a '93 Accord manual (mine was a DX, however). Leased it for 66 months (I know! no commentary, please). Only put about 60K on it .. it spent a lot of the time at the airport parking lot.

No A/C, only a 2 speaker stereo .. but that car was quite good to me. Total strippo .. they were blowing them out because of the newly remodeled '94's.

Anyway, I'm in Richfield, UT tonight. Did just over 500 miles today. First tank registered about 33 mpg, second tank just over 30. Spent most of the time cruising at either 65 or 75. No problems whatsoever with the Subaru.

I've got about 600 miles to drive tomorrow .. in 100 degree heat for the most part. Ugh. And, I've discovered that Sprint cell phone service sucks on I-70. No service even here in Richfield.

fezo · June 2007

Hey! Glad to see the report. I was going to comment on the folks that thought maybe you should bring a spare engine or such.

I didn't have that era Accord - I missed a couple of generations - but the comments I've heard here ring true with the ones I've had. Great shifter (oddly with the exception of my current 00 which has just an OK shifter), great clutch, eats brakes for snacks.

roadburner · June 2007

8-series: I'd kill for a really nice, not-too high mileage one, but I think you'd have to have a very serious maintenence budget.

That's the common wisdom, though I do have a few friends who have owned 8ers for years without incurring signifcant repair costs. It really depends on what breaks and how willing you are to perform the repairs yourself.

stickguy · June 2007

Took it for a spin today. Overall, not bad (for the price). Fired right up, ran good, smooth clutch and shifter. Hard to get a real feel for it since it needed a muffler (rotted out where the tail pipe end connects). Rest of exhaust looked OK (from what I could see without a lift). Sitting on 114K.

AC blew cold, although that is something I would trade off for $$! The kid can sweat.

Nearly new Michelins, a plus. Brakes felt fine. Rode OK, no obvious signs of problems.

So mechanically seemed OK, but if was filthy. It belongs to a kid that used it through college. Apparently he his too busy working now (real job) to clean it up. Needs a serious detail, but nothing a couple of hours elbow grease wouldn't fix.

Paint faded, and there were an assortment of dents. Biggest problem was some rust, along the bottom of the DS rear fender (below the gas cap, where it meets the bumper). That side of the bumber wasn't holding on by much.

On the plus side, the kids father is a BMW technician who did all the work on it. Would have to speak to him to see what was (and wasn't) done.

Price was 1,600, but the Mom (who showed it) said it was definitely negotiable (they are ready to have it gone from outside the house).

Tempted to low ball on it, although I don't really need something for a while yet. Mechanically I think it should be OK (a muffler can't cost too much!), but the rust, where it is (not easily fixable) turns me off. I don't mind some repairs, but I hate rust.

Any opinions?

lilengineerboy · June 2007

Muffler is easy and <$200, if you can break it off at the over-axle pipe. The thing comes as an assembly with that pipe, the muffler, and chrome tips or what not.

All Hondas from that era rust over the rear wheel wheels (although the Civic did it just in front of the wheel well). Mine spent most of its life in CA and in the winter I keep that area very clean so mine doesn't suffer from that affliction.

That sounds like a $2k car around these parts though.

qbrozen · June 2007

i'm with the engineer. heck, even if you don't want it, fix the little things and flip it by properly advertising it for $2500.

kyfdx · June 2007

Find an independent exhaust shop... they can do the whole exhaust, back of the manifold for $250.. Of course, you'll need a new $79 muffler every three years..

I'd offer an easy $1000 and see what they say..

zodiac2004 · June 2007

The 93 - did it have CFC free air. IF not (and I suspect it doesn't), you can't legally fix it if anything goes wrong - unless you retrofit.

Just something to keep in mind.

The price seems good if maintenance is upto date.

hotel1 · June 2007

Stick...........hondas here in salt land NY ALL rust
out in the same spots on both sides !
Usually the whole bottom of the panel above/along
the bumper cover rotted away and the cover is hanging ! Lucky your in NJ...........Don't see too many 93s here in NY !

lilengineerboy · June 2007

The 93 - did it have CFC free air. IF not (and I suspect it doesn't), you can't legally fix it if anything goes wrong - unless you retrofit.

No, it didn't, but I don't believe its illegal to buy, sell, or repair the old stuff, just illegal to manufacture it (but apparently not to "import" it). There are enough R12 alternatives and availability that I wouldn't worry too much about it.

woodyww · June 2007

I agree with the rust problem on older Hondas. I had a 3-4 y.o. '80's civic wagon with 56K miles that was already rusting. Also I remember brakes being a real problem with older Hondas; but, I'm not sure if that applies to a '93 accord or not.

Given that it's filthy, dented, rusted, needs exhaust work, no air bags for your kid, I dunno. I probably wouldn't, even for $1000. I'm not sure I'd want it sitting in my driveway, but that's just me.

If it were my kid: I'd be looking at 10 y.o. Volvos, probably 850's, for a few thousand $$. Super safe. You could probably even get one that isn't filthy, dented, & rusted......even my Dad bought me an $1100 used car when I was 16 that wasn't an Eyesore....

woodyww · June 2007

Before I bought my E24 M6 around '93, I drove a slightly used 12 cyl. 850. Of course, radically different cars. The interior of the 8-series was like, futuristic almost. And I always thought the 8 was--maybe--the most gorgeous bmw ever made. Almost Italian looking, like a Ferrari, or an Exotic.....

stickguy · June 2007

I see both sides of the arguement. I doubt I would lose money, or it would be a "bad" car, just not sure it is how I want to go.

I may decide to look for something a little nicer, for a little more money. Or bite the bullet, and let him drive my car for now (he will only be on a permit for a year, so he can't go solo).

Oh, and the '93 does have a drivers side airbag.

I do like the 850 idea (saw one in the teens not too long ago). Only problem is finding one with a stick. I would, however, subject him to a 240 if I could find a nice one!

lilengineerboy · June 2007

Also I remember brakes being a real problem with older Hondas; but, I'm not sure if that applies to a '93 accord or not.

Nope, the LX just has basic drums, not too big a deal, its the fronts that are terrors to change rotors.

no air bags for your kid,

92-93 had a driver's side air bag. Of course its a 15 year old air bag so all bets are off.

Volvos, probably 850's, for a few thousand $$.

That might not be cost effective when maintenance and repair costs are added in.

qbrozen · June 2007

That might not be cost effective when maintenance and repair costs are added in.

bah! don't let the stereotypes fool you. the volvo is not expensive in this regard. parts are definitely no more expensive, it is no less reliable, and it requires no extra maintenance. just look at all the 740/850/s70s being sold with well over 200k miles.

lilengineerboy · June 2007

just look at all the 740/850/s70s being sold with well over 200k miles.

Don't confuse durability with reliability.

bumpy · June 2007

its the fronts that are terrors to change rotors.

Captive rotors?

tifighter · June 2007

Don't confuse durability with reliability.

Amen. And this law applies to most of the Swedes and Germans; the Audis and BMWs I have had were well built but, reliable? Like, Accord reliable? Hah!

roadburner · June 2007

Before I bought my E24 M6 around '93, I drove a slightly used 12 cyl. 850.

A man after my own heart, I ran 1988 M6 from 1992 to 1995. Still regret selling it. Right now I've zeroed in on a pristine 1997 Dakar II M3 coupe with only 45K on the clock. Manual Vaders, heated seats, just beautiful- and owned by an obsessive-compulsive car nut who is only selling it because his wife says he can't keep that AND a Z4 AND a Triumph Bonnie.
And then look what pops up...UH-OH! :surprise:

stickguy · June 2007

Yeah, in theory an old Accord is going to be more reliabe. But that doesn't mean things wont break. Especially if it was ignored early on.

That's one problem with some Hondas. They have the reputation as indestructible, and some owners take that to mean no maintenance.

So, you get a car with 115K on it with original hoses, belts, fluids, etc. Vs the Volvo, where the previous owner replaced all of the consumables!

Also, there is a difference between a cheap starter car for a 16 YO, and something I would want for myself. All kinds of things could crap out on the kids car and they wouldn't need to be fixed. Not for me though

qbrozen · June 2007

Don't confuse durability with reliability.

oh, i'm not confusing anything. i mean, you are right in a sense that just because a car has gone 200k miles doesn't mean its been reliable.

But, I also speak from personal experience. I've had Hondas and volvos (along with about a dozen other makes).

I think where people also get confused is the level to which a car is cared for.

example:
"my $40k volvo has a rattling noise coming from the dash after just 50k miles! What an unreliable piece of junk!"
or
"my $16k honda has a rattling noise coming from the dash after just 20k miles. eh. Whattya expect for $16k? at least it doesn't leave me stranded."

in other words, people expect more from more expensive cars. Just read the owners boards and you'll see what I mean. I notice alot more people complaining viciously about tiny inconsequential stuff on more expensive cars. And I think this is connected to stickguy's comment, too. Alot of Honda owners buy Hondas because they don't want to bother taking care of a vehicle. That would also apply to taking it to the dealer to complain of little issues. My Accord with just 16k miles is making all kinds of creaks and rattles, but its a lease and its relatively inexpensive, so I just don't care enough to do anything about it. On the other hand, when I had my volvo, every little noise bothered me and I had to chase it down. replacing suspension parts, etc, along the way.

michaellno · June 2007

I made it to California unscathed and without incident. Two more tanks of gas .. one in Vegas (almost 33 mpg) and another in Victorville (just under 30 mpg). Just over 1100 miles total and averaged around 31.5 mpg for the trip.

Not one single problem along the way. I have to say that after this experience, my admiration for Subarus has gone up considerably. It's very possible that the next car I get will be a Subaru.

My son is thrilled to have a car .. now all he needs is his license. We did take it to a parking lot where I started to instruct him in the intricacies of driving a stick. Yes, he stalled it a bunch of times, but he's getting the hang of it.

It was nice to have a road trip, but I have to admit that I'm very glad to be flying home!

stickguy - good luck with that Accord. IMO, it will make a great first car for your son.

woodyww · June 2007

My ex had a '95 850 that she bought used, kept for maybe 8 yrs., & ran up to 130K miles. The only real repairs I heard about were a replaced radiator, & it needed a $1200 A/C repair when she sold it, for about $5K I think.

I also like stickguy's 240 idea. I bet it's not easy to find a nice one tho (??).

I am somewhat put off when I read some of the owner's reviews of recent Volvos on Edmunds. But some people are driven nuts by multiple smaller problems, others have much better luck.

I do remember the Car Talk guys recommending to some caller once that she buy an older Volvo for her kid, even w/o airbags if necessary, over a much newer Camry with airbags, saying almost any Volvo would be structurally safer in a crash......

[Deleted User] · June 2007

Glad you made it safely and your son is happy with his graduation gift

Enjoy the flight home, we'll see how soon you'll be on the lots when you get back

woodyww · June 2007

I really wish I hadn't seen that.

Just like mine except my M6 was black. I really missed mine for a couple of years after I sold it. But it needed $3-$4k in suspension & brake work (at 15 years old w/mostly original parts), & I couldn't keep up with it.

The only thing I'd say negative about them (besides weak A/C), is that mine became really not that much "fun" to drive, at least around town, with the heavy clutch & shifter etc. To me, they're more about the gorgeous looks. People were always coming up to me & asking about it, usually saying "is that brand new?" (???), & generally just losing their minds.

I'm trying to resist calling the guy with the red one on fee-bay. It must have a mostly new suspension if it's been lowered, which hopefully means he got rid of the idiotic SLS.....also he got rid of the TRX's.....

lilengineerboy · June 2007

Here You Go, Do I get a finder fee?

fezo · June 2007

What do you figure the chances are that Michaelll decides that plane he's on looks pretty good and maybe instead of a car......

roadburner · June 2007

Just like mine except my M6 was black.

So was mine.

People were always coming up to me & asking about it, usually saying "is that brand new?" (???), & generally just losing their minds.

Same here, except I had a chip and no cats. I made life miserable for the local Mustang GT/Z28/Trans Am drivers.

also he got rid of the TRX's

I put some Borbets on mine, but that guy spent some serious $$$ for those three piece BBS wheels. I say buy it- after five decades on this planet I've decided that life's too short not to have an ///M car in the garage.
You can thank me later.

stickguy · June 2007

you would, if it wasn't so far away!

If that car was as nice as it seems from that wonderful picture, and is basically clean with no major mechanical needs, and it was local to me, I would jump on it for 2K. Cold be a perfect local car for a few years, and I would even be willing to drive it myself!

At least no AT to crap out for major $$. If the AC went, he would sweat. Anything else would be manageable, and at least the car is built like a tank.

akangl · June 2007

From a 4 day/1000 mile trip fishing and clam digging. Had a blast, but we realized we need a bigger RV. We took the dog (85 lb german shepherd) with us, her first trip, she was awesome, but made the RV seem a bit small. So, I think I'm going to put any car buying on hold and start working on moving up to a 5th wheel RV. Have one in mind that we really like, but we are planning on waiting until next spring to replace ours.

So, looks like I just might be driving the Durango for a while, not a terrible thing I suppose, its a good little truck.

geffen · June 2007

I actually like the Durango, especially the older style Durangos that were on the smaller body style frame, about a year ago I drove one of the newer Dodge Durango as a rental which are bigger, I thought it took a bit to get used to handling and it sure did guzzle the gas, however it was a nice smooth riding SUV, if gas prices weren't so high i'd consider a Durango.

steine13 · June 2007

but we realized we need a bigger RV.

You must have spell 'need' differently than I do.

You've used the silly thing, what, five times in two years? As a friend of mine likes to observe: "where would the world economy be if the US consumer behaved responsibly?"

I'd leave that sort of thing to people who can pay cash, but that's me.

More of a canoe-and-tent camper myself,
-Mathias

akangl · June 2007

You've used the silly thing, what, five times in two years?

Actually we use it a lot. We've been all over the state of Alaska with it and well into Canada. If I had to sit here and count up the trips we've taken, its somewhere around 20-30 I'd guess, I know the first summer we used it a lot. Sometimes just overnights, but usually 4-5 days. Sure it works, but a bigger one would be nice. We won't do anything until next year and only if we sell this one on our own. Going to try really hard to find a used one that will fit the bill.

mark156 · June 2007

Akangl, with your record of buying... a used one would be perfect. In a year you might want to trade up to a different floor plan, etc.

I purchased new because I've been reading and studing motorhomes for 4 or 5 yrs casually and 3 or 4 years seriously.... so, 9 years of reading!

I will keep the new Monaco for at least 5 years as it has everything that I thought would work for me and also be a good seller when the time comes.

Gas is cheap.... I'm in Europe right now it's $8 a gallon!

Can't wait to get back to the US and start another motorhome trip!

Mark156

woodyww · June 2007

I say buy it-....life's too short not to have an ///M car

If I lived in S.FL or LA, I'd have kept my M6, or I'd buy that red one on fee-bay. Problem is, once the car got past 10 years old, it started needing more & more & more maintenence, AND in N.E., I could only drive it 4-5 months a year anyway, max. Too tough, unless you have a big garage, healthy budget to support at least 2 cars etc.

Another problem: in the high $$ 'teens for a 20 y.o. bmw.....when you look at what you can get in used 5 y.o. bmws for not much more, that are objectively way superior to an E24, like a Z4, whatever, it's hard to justify for even a semi-normal person.

Personally, I need to move on. Too many exc.-to-great bmw models that I haven't experienced yet....

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