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Legacy GT Limited vs. Acura TSX and TL
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Comments
I think side curtain airbags are not all that safe in all situations.
Krzys - having Passat with side curtain airbags remainding kids to not lean against sides
I don't think the TSX is in the same league as these 2 cars, it's significantly underpowered (in comparison) and a little smaller. I think it's a very nice car, but more of a slightly shrunk Accord with a better engine (4cyl). I think I would choose the V6 Accord over the TSX though.
I think the TL is a great car, a little roomier inside, a little nicer (but you pay for it) and better warranty. I have a Garmin Streetpilot 2610 Nav that I can take from car to car that works quite well (as long as you stay out of tunnels- no dead reckoning- although that's available too) with the advantage of I can program a route into my computer at home and upload it into my streetpilot before my trip. You can't do that with your nav built into your car. But, once again, torque steer of 270 horses through the front wheels- the car should have been rear drive (or AWD?) to truly be of world caliber. On a day to day basis commuting, I think it's a great car, but not up to the performance of the Subaru.
Also, I have lived in the NE and now in Seattle, and I would much rather drive in snow in the NE than here. Lot's of hills, and they don't salt the roads. They only have 2 trucks putting sand on the road when it snows (very slight exaggeration). If you absolutely have to drive in the snow here, AWD is a huge plus. (it also handles better in the dry too!)
tom
I think side curtain airbags are not all that safe in all situations.
Krzys - having Passat with side curtain airbags remainding kids to not lean against sides "
If you're worried about what the airbags could do if the kids are near the window, shouldn't you be more worried about what the impact triggering the airbags would do? I'd rather have my head bang against a rapidly inflating airbag than shattering glass and the grille of the truck that t-boned me.
I'd be much more concerned about the kids leaning against the glass in a car without side curtains. You never know when an accident like that will occur.
Mike
In summary, here is what I think so far after doing a lot of research (in no particular order):
Acura TL – nicest interior, great exterior looks, boring wheels, low torque, good highway MPG, smooth engine, FWD is a negative - torque steer, good sized back seat
2005 Infiniti G35 – avg. interior, avg. exterior looks, 18” wheels standard on sport model, 270 ft.-lbs. tq., 277 hp., RWD is a plus, smooth engine, good highway MPG, zero torque steer, good sized back seat
2005 Legacy GT Limited – avg. interior and exterior looks, boring wheels, only a 5 speed, poor highway MPG, AWD is a plus, sweet engine, possible to upgrade hp. with STi modifications, different than most cars in it’s class, severely underrated, smallish back seat
If the Acura TL came in RWD and had more low-end tq., I’d likely put down a deposit today. Acura needs to put an in-line 6 cyl in there. This is the best looking car of the bunch inside and out. I like how the 6MT also comes with Brembo brakes. Just to keep up with the hp. race, I bet Acura will bump up the hp. a bit for 2005. The FWD bugs me.
The G35’s exterior looks are growing on me, but I am still not ready to pull the trigger on it. This is sports car oriented with it’s RWD platform.
Subaru really threw a wrench in there with their new Legacy GT. If I could find confirmation that more horsepower could be unleashed through the use of some STi like engine and exhaust modifications, this may the car for me. I like that it’s different and nobody gives it a chance. I do wish the back seat was larger, but I think it will work. Anything is better than my mustang’s back seat.
Your thoughts?
It also has quicker steering and bigger front brake rotors. Those shopping for performance should go straight to the GT model.
grove: keep in mind the TL is bigger than the Legacy. Subaru is coming out with a full-size sedan, though.
Kevin: real wood on the new Subies? On the Momo steering wheels, yes. On the dash, no, it's plood.
Accord over TSX? Nah, it just doens't have the sporting intentions, you can't even get a manual with the sedan. If I was shopping for an automatic for my family, maybe I'd prefer the Accord, but let me pick a manual and I'd pick the TSX between those two for the fun-to-drive quotient.
mono: the turbo powertrain will be, by far, the easiest to modify for extra power. Even low budget mods produce noticeable results. And the AWD could put the extra power down.
If you want something *really* special Subaru is contemplating a Legacy STi, and rumor has it we'd see a turbo or even twin-turbo H6, probably 3l or more with 350hp or so.
It would go for about what a high-end TL costs.
-juice
Finally, Turbos have been known to be very mod-friendly. More so than non-boosted engines.
I am sure there will be upgrades for the TL and the G35 eventually, but the GT will most likely be the most mod-friendly. Finally, the AWD should be able to support the extra power over FWD and RWD formats. Extra power in the FWD format scares me a little without modding the car heavily.
If you are looking for comfort as well, the TL is king.
If you are looking for a compromise between the two, then the G35 is your car.
Juice - the fake-wood inserts on the center console LOOKED real!
With the TSX vs. the Accord - Agree with Juice on sedan vs. sedan. Take the Accord Coupe with the sports package and manual, and we have a whole new ballgame! 0-60 in under 6 secs! Also, solid handling if not quite up to par with the TSX.
-juice
I wish I just purchase the STi engine, drivetrain wheels/tires and brakes as options on the Legacy. That would be perfect.
Subaru actually replaced steel with aluminum on the hood, the hatch, the roof rails, and the front and rear bumper beams.
The Forester XT also has very short gearing, with a final drive of 4.7:1. Other Foresters use a 4.1:1 final drive.
-juice
Actually I don't have kids but a toddler and an infant coming and they are strapped in car seats (a legal necessity in Canada) so they wouldn't be able to lean against the window.
"I think side curtain airbags are not all that safe in all situations"
No side curtain airbags would be even less safer.
highway - 27 mpg - G35
highway - 30 mpg - Acura TL
All in manual transmission.
It's clear the Legacy must have a higher final drive ratio because the 4 cyl. engine and likely the the lighest vehicle of the bunch gets the worst MPG.
I know several TL owners seeing 30 MPG with the automatic trans. as well.
Heck, my Mustang has twice the engine cylinders to feed and it rated at 17/24.
Anyone know what the Legacy GT’s are going to weigh? If they are close in weight to the Forester XT and they get 40 more ponies, they should be real quick. It will depend on the gearing somewhat, but based on the low MPG ratings, it likely has short gearing as well.
GT curb weight is 3300 for a base sedan up to 3500 for a Limited wagon. And yes they are also geared short.
I don't think any of these can be called economical, don't they all burn premium fuel?
-juice
Subaru's website lists the Legacy GT Limited at 3365lbs. in manual trans. mode. However, they don't provide the final drive ratio.
All the vehicles probably require short gearing to help get the engine into the high rpms. quicker as that's where the power is.
Why would Subaru underate the horsepower numbers on the Forester XT? Wouldn't a high number help sales in today's market?
Craig
It's a large 4 cylinder, I've owned V6s that were smaller (my 626 was a 2.5l, Mazda even made a 1.8l V6 at one point). So it's not a small engine by any means.
Add AVCS and the turbo and it doesn't behave like a small engine, either.
Yes, Subaru did not want the Baja turbo and Forester turbo to beat the WRX in HP for marketing purposes. But on the dyno, the 2.5T easily bests the 2.0T in both torque and HP. It also has a flatter curve.
-juice
Infiniti makes you pull your hair out in frustration. First they had no manuals at all, then they finally get them, but again not on the AWD models. Ugh.
-juice
http://www.subaru-sti.co.jp/e/index.html
http://www.subaru-msm.com/global/news/040713.html
http://www.subaru.co.jp/movie/
The RWD 6MT with 277 hp. 270 tq. for 2005 is going to a fast G35. It will be hard not to take a hard look at this one. It also has a larger interior and gets better MPG than the Legacy.
I do think Infiniti could improve on the interior a bit, it's not really what you expect from an upscale make. I'd say it's about where Nissan should be.
Minor nit pick on a great car, though.
-juice
-juice
I've got gas mileage numbers for you:
litres used/100 km
city hwy
tl 11.6 7.6 (acura.ca)
gt man. 12.4 8.6 (brochure)
auto 12.3 8.6
g35 man. 11.9(24mpg) 8.1(35mpg)
auto 12.8(22mpg) 8.4(34mpg)
awd 13.5(21mpg) 9.1 (31mpg) (infiniti.ca)
sorry about using metric system but tl is clearly better as it burns 7.6 litres/100km vs g35 8.1 and gt 8.6.Notice there is a 0.5 litres/100km difference between each car.Say you drive 10,000 miles per year=16,000 kilometres per year.Your car burns 0.5 litres/100km x 16000 km=80 litres more per year x $1 cdn= $80 dollars cdn more per year!
I was cross shopping g35x vs gt and I knew g35x had worse gas mileage reputation as seen above 9.1 litres/100km vs gt 8.6 litres/100km.
Happy shopping
Why is freight and pdi $1300 cdn on gt,$1250 cdn on g35,but only $950 cdn on tl,tsx even though tsx is made in Japan and all the rest in U.S.A.?
Is it just a shifting of numbers that manufacturers like to play with v.s. MSRP?
I wouldn't really care much since my kids' safety seats are always buckled down.
Freight charges make no sense to me. IIRC the Neon had a $500 freight while some Japanese-made Civics were $390.
-juice
Looks similiar to the '04s. Supposedly the interior was updated, but not much (looks very similiar to the '04). The biggest news is the power bump.
I was disappointed the Subie Outback will not have a ski pass-thru, or better yet, the 40/20/40 seat ala Volvo XC70.
I'd like to see the TSX wagon here, Europe has one. I think there is a wagon version of the G35 as well.
A Legacy wagon can carry about 4 times the cargo compared to the Legacy sedan. The seats fold flat. Roof rails are standard and that extends capacity even more. You get nice struts holding up the lift gate instead of gooseneck hinges on the sedan.
The wagon is soooo much better. Subaru is a wagon specialist, really.
The Outback has roof rails and even standard cross bars. That makes it easy to put the skis on the roof, they even sell clamps to bolt on all Yakima accessories (they relabel Yakima stuff as Subaru OE).
All the sedans here lack the roof rack. I don't want wet skis inside my car...
-juice
The big changes are the under the hood. G35 Sedans will see 17 more horsepower and 10 more ft.-lbs. of torque at the peaks. There are some minor interior updates as well. An 18” wheel package is also available. Minor changes to the front and rear of the car took place too. I think the Coupes are going to be near 300 hp. in manual trans. form with a 19” wheel package available. I’d love a coupe, but it just doesn’t suit my family needs right now.
I like that this car is RWD. Leaving a Mustang GT for a family sports sedan is tough enough, but at least this car is still RWD. RWD is the true sports car form. It will just suck in the winter. AWD is nice too, but you can’t have as much fun with it - no fishtails. I like to turn corners in my Mustang and give it a little gas. This kicks the rear end out just a bit. It’s fun, but not something I do with other cars around and never on a wet road.
I'll just use my wife's crv to haul non-explosives.
AW readers picked it over the BMW3 as America's best coupe.
Leaving a Mustang, check out the 300C sedan, which is popular with the Hemi, and cylinder deactivation actually keeps it relatively efficient.
But...you certainly can fish tail in a Subaru if you want to. With the 5 speed manual, the default power split is 50/50, I have this on my Forester and even 165hp is enough to get the tail out in tight turns, very easy in the wet or in snow. And the AWD actually pulls you out of the skid so it's safe.
I have a Miata, and while it is easier to get the tail out, it's far harder to control. The Forester is safe and fun.
Auto Legacy GTs actually send even more power to the rear axle - 45/55 is the default split. They too can get the tail out under power in a turn.
-juice
And, juice, I know you're an expert on Subarus. Do you know if the factory security alarm for the Legacy/Outback offers protection for the hood, or if there is a dealer-installed upgrade for that? Or about aftermarket alarms? Some manufacturers, (ie. Honda), discourage using aftermarket alarms, citing potential conflict with the car's electrical system.
And if you're taking home a big TV, you're likely going straight home so thieves aren't really an issue. If you have the turbo engine what's behind you will just fade away. ;-)
Wish I had one, but I think there are a couple of OE alarm options, including a motion sensor of some sort.
-juice
You're absolutely right about that. I guess I was thinking more in terms of packing stuff for a vacation.
BTW - ryan1 - I would have to agree with you about the Mazda6 Hatch. It is a really good idea. Looks and acts like a sedan, with cargo carrying advantages of a wagon (though not as roomy as the wagon.
I don't care for the looks of the 300C, but good thought.
How do the new Legacy's GT sound from an exhaust perspective? I have to admit, I am going to really miss the deep rumble of my V8 engine. And I am not one of those guys with a crazy loud mustang exhaust that you typically see (not that there's anything wrong with it). My car has a Bassani X pipe and a Borla cat-back exhaust. It's very loud at wide open throttle, but has a nice mild rumble when just driving normal.
I am concerned the 4 cyl Legacy engine is going to sound like a sportbike. At least the G35 has 3.5 liters of displacement and 6 cyl. The larger displacement and extra 2 cyl will deepen the sound over a 4 cyl engine with a liter less in displacement.
At the end of the day, I know neither car will sound like a V8 Mustang. I just don't want the high-pitched motorcycle engine sound coming from my car. I used to have a Honda Prelude and while the engine screamed at 7000 rpms from inside the car, I thought the exhaust sounds weak from outside the car. And I hate the sound of those coffee can mufflers I often see on honda civics. Remember, it's just my preference so don't anyone become offended.
The exhaust on the Legacy GT is pretty restrained, but it still sounds great. After market mufflers would likely make it sound even better.
Craig
I would rank the TL as the most luxurious. Great gadgets between the bluetooth, DVD-A and the interior and exterior styling is the best of the three. That said I found the car unbalanced and expensive.
The Legacy GT is the most practicle. Its AWD and a wagon and with a 2 dogs and three kids its the car I should get. Its drivability is good but I didn't love the manual (not slick) and the engine wasn't bad but not as powerful as i expected. Interior and exterior styling improved but not as good as the others.
The TSX is the most drivable. Great slick 6 spd manual, excellent suspension and high reving engine. Inerior styling nice, exterior somewhat bland and not anywhere near as practicle as the subaru.
I am still going forward with the TSX. I should probably opt for the subaru due to its great value and practicality but for me i rank driveability as top priority.