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Rear vent windows are very nice in HOT weather to push the hot air out the back. They are closed once the interior of the van has cooled off.
TO: All Honda Sales, Service & Parts Managers
FROM: American Honda Service Division
RE: Campaign Announcement and Stop Sale Order
Today, Honda Motor Co., Ltd., announced to NHTSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) its intention to recall selected 2005 Odysseys equipped with anti-lock brakes (ABS) in order to inspect/replace the rear wheel speed sensors.
Basic Problem: Some rear wheel speed sensors may not be installed correctly, which causes the sensor to report an incorrect wheel speed to the anti-lock brake system (ABS) control unit. The on-board diagnostic system quickly identifies this error under most normal driving conditions and activates numerous warning lamps and disables the ABS. Brake application below the ABS threshold, or after ABS is disabled, is not affected. However, if brake application exceeding the ABS threshold occurs before the malfunction is detected, the ABS control unit may reduce brake force to all wheels. An unexpected loss of brake force can cause a crash.
Stop-Sale Order: Applies to all 2005 Odysseys equipped with ABS between VIN 5FNRL38***B000192 and VIN 5FNRL38***B019361 in your vehicle inventory. Vehicles with VINs below or above those listed are not affected and may be sold.
NOTE: Only a small number of vehicles in the above range are affected. Your District Sales Manager will give you a list of vehicles in your inventory that need inspection/repair.
Vehicles within the VIN range CANNOT be sold or leased with a known defect.
NOTE: It is illegal to sell or lease a vehicle with a known defect. If any affected vehicle is sold/leased to a retail customer with a known defect, the dealership will be entirely responsible for all legal consequences, should an injury occur as a result of a failure of the defective part.
Support Materials: American Honda will post its recall repair service bulletin on ISIS the evening of November 5, 2004 (visible 11/6/04).
Campaign Parts: Less than one percent (1%) of the affected vehicles will need repair parts. Please refer to AH Parts Divisions iN Message for ordering procedure.
Repair Strategy: The vast majority of vehicles will only need to have the two rear wheel ABS sensor to knuckle clearances checked with a feeler gauge. A small percentage (1%) of inspected vehicles will have excess clearance which will require replacement of the ABS sensor.
Customer Notification: Approximately 2,465 vehicles are affected by this Recall Campaign. Notifications will be mailed to all known owners (approximately November 11, 2004). You will be notified of the exact customer mailing date by iN Message.
.....
....Honda start with problem already
(1) Wind noises over 60 MPH
(2) Steering wheel vibration
(3) Sliding door rattling sound
However, it seems the ground clearance is much greater on the Toyota (6.9 inches). What is the ground clearance on the Honda? I would think this would still be an advantage in the snow, even comparing FWD versions.
In addition, I like the rear independent suspension of the Honda, but I have seen older Odysseys sag excessively when loaded up. I can't find the payload capacity of the Honda. I think the Toyota is rated around 1500 pounds and comes standard with a towing package. Is this greater than most?
--
Doug
We occasionally load up the back of our van, a 2001 T&C equipped with load leveling rear suspension (and tow package). You can't tell when its loaded whereas out 1996 T&C dragged it's tail. We are also considering a Honda to replace our 2001 T&C. Another consideration
WVK
Is this as low as anyone else is getting?
We were close to purchasing the '05 Odyssey EX, but am concerned about the alleged wind noise at high speeds. It seems a Odyssey EX is greater value than Sienna XLE based on the standard safety features. How important are the safety features, like side airbags and vsc? Should I look to add those safety features on the Sienna XLE?
Steve, Host
#1. Odyssey does not have better leg room for all three rows.
front Sienna 42.9 vs Ody 40.8
2nd row both are 39.6
3rd row sienna 39.5 vs 41.1
The problem with Ody is that 3rd row is narrow.
In fact all three row, the ody are narrower than Sienna. Hence Odyssey space is actually smaller than Sienna.
#2. Wrong on temperature control. Sienna XLE and XLE limited has true 3 zone automatic temperature contorl. However, Odyssey Touring is the only one with true 3 zone automatic control. Therefore it's other way around. Odyssey only has true 3 zone control on the most expansive Touring, while Sienna has it except the CE and LE.
The 2005 Navi has POI search feature and it matches Odyssey in terms of search capabilities. The biggest draw back on the toyota navi are as follows-
1. No navigation input access when moving.
2. Less voice command.
The difference between odyssey navi and sienna navi is not that big any more. Although Odyssey screen is still better and some menu are still more logically designed.
Toyota navi has some advantage as well. It's now easier to program multiple destinations at once. So you can pre-program your entire day trip.
For RES. Honda screen is better for the rear passenger. But honda does not allow front passenger to watch the DVD in park. But honda DVD is easier to control from the front.
As far as honda quality goes, i have never had good luck with Honda. Honda quality is way over rated.
1. Navi is bigger and better. Well this is only true to some extent. However toyota did upgrade the navi for 2005. In terms of navi function, its actually slightly better and more powerful than Odyssey. Although voice command and menu design still lags. Therefore this should be much closer for 05.
2. DVD RES is better. Well, the screen is better. But functionally speaking Toyota allows DVD to be played on the screen up front. So it's really a wash. However Odyssey dvd control from the front is much better.
The biggest gripe i have with edmunds choice is probably that none of the editor has to live with the van for a long extended period and has to make a pick based on paper and limited experience.
For example, the HID with manual height control on the sienna is a must. It offers driver to see 3 times further than Odyssey with much brighter light as well. Especially useful when driving in total darkness. Odyssey light are decent but are totally outclassed by Sienna's superior design and use of HID. For this point, Odyssey would take a huge hit in active safety.
No one probably bothered to fit the van to max capacity as they would find out how narrow odyssey's seats are (espeically the 3rd row).
Not to mention the lesser quality of plastic and leather in the odyssey.
Sienna is not perfect either. It's dvd control is horrible from the front. The steering response is poor. But it's better executed minivan than Odyssey.
Minivan is used to transport 7 to 8 people in comfort for long distance. It's not suppose to be a sports sedan.
IMHO, honda paid too much on things that really is not minivan priority. It gave one of the best honda steering response to a minivan (while gave one of the worse to the TL). It gives owner a special designed wheel/pax tire package that is more of a problem (try to replace that special tire and wheel combination when you had a damaged tire plus rim in middle of nowhere). honda did not design the interior space well in the new odyssey. It does not include HID. All this for price identical to a better designed van in Sienna limited.
Yes, i know that picking the latest van to be winner is easiest thing to do. However, is that really the truth? Probably not. Espeically you have to live with it for a long period of time and you will be more aware what is truely needed in a minivan.
Last I checked our Editor in Chief owned an Odyssey, and both the Odyssey and Sienna have been in our long term fleet. The Ody was a '99 and an '04 is still in the fleet, going on a year.
Steve, Host
Odyssey has smaller interior room across all 3 rows. It does not offer true 8 passenger seating. It does not offer HID with height adjustment control which is active safety feature. I simply don't see where Odyssey has any kind of advantage that would take lead. Odyssey has great steering response, marginally better handling, better electronic throttle setting, and better navi/res combination. However, it's not a huge difference.
But edmunds article failed to mention that toyota has better warranty. Bigger interior room. Upgraded navi for 2005 which makes it nearly as good as on the honda. Available HID that provides 3 times more range than Odyssey's headlight at night. Overal better plastic and leather. It's hard to see where Odyssey is heads and above competition.
Both van has its draw backs. But a minivan is still a minivan. Space and safety should be priority. Unless editors at edmunds decide not to drive in the dark where head light does not matter. I fail to see how much safety improvement that Odyssey has made and making it the best minivan out there.
Odyssey:
- Liked the acceleration
- Liked the gas mileage
- I prefered the exterior looks
- Liked the RES and the Nav better
Sienna:
- Liked the interior looks much more
- Wife liked the exterior looks
- Liked the seats better
- Liked the better warranty
In summary, we liked both cars. The clincher for our decision to go with the Sienna - price. The best price that I could get for the fully-loaded Honda Touring was $38,310 ($500 off MSRP after Destination). The Sienna price from 2 differenet dealerships $34,500 (with the Running Boards and Rear Spoiler - $34,000 without).
Given this $3-4K difference, I can live with a slightly slower car that gets 1-2 less MPG but has a better warranty and more rear shoulder room.
Both wife and I liked Sienna's interior design, dashboard. Wife specially liked the availability of colors (interior and exterior).
Sienna runs quieter than Odyssey even with EX-L and touring.
We wanted to have Nav and DVD.. thus it came down to price..
Received offers for :
Odyssey EX-L RES/NAV @ $34,000 (including the delivery fee).. Initial offer was $34650
Sienna XLE HQ (#8) package 36,000 (initial offer was $38000.. I think they will/can come down to $34K-35K range).
we put $500 refundable deposit on Honda Odyssey.. wife had to choose her second choice colors since the colors she wanted would have us wait for more than 6 months..She is still thinking if Sienna comes down to $33-34K we should go for Sienna..
I prefer Odyssey because it has all kinds of new features that are already blended into the the card design.. i.e. voice recognition and more controls on the steering wheel.. also noticed the baby seat hookup in Sienna XLE is very rudimentary/after thought: they cut the leather seats and left the interior sponge exposed with no finish on the sides of the leather. Odyssey is different.. the hinge for the child seat hook up is a hook that comes out without cutting the leather seats..
You should be able to get a much better price on the Sienna. Depending on your location, I could see you getting sub-$33K easy. However, even if you do, that price on the Honda seems like a solid deal and I would still take it.
Tbill
Nope, it is "free." No monthly charges are involved. The data is derived from a disc-driven unit and the satellite. The disc can be replaced periodically, say 2-3 years to include additional features that may be added in the future. The cost is typically $200-$250 to upgrade the disc, which is available through the respective manufaturers.
Another point is that in the case of Ody NAV, the voice command also controls other systems such as A/C and radio. Overall, the Ody NAV is state-of-the-art, and in an Acura TL one can also get real time trafic reports (n/a on Ody).
Tbill, are you sure you are comparing the fully loaded (assume RES+NAV)XLE Ltd FWD to Touring (fully loaded). The numbers I have worked out give the INVOICE price of ~$36.5 K for the XLE LTD. Maybe you are comparing the price of a LTD with different options or XLE (not LTD) with RES and NAV. Just wondering.
Odyssey seems to have "cheaper"(doesnt look good) plastic inside.
Sienna has the worst minimal third row leg room, the horizontal legroom (hip to knee) is about 23.5 in, and Odyssey has about 27 in.
Odyssey 3rd row hiproom is not smaller than sienna, the 3 seats has a total size of 46 in while sienna has 49 in.
I found that Odyssey seats are so much easier to operate than sienna on both 2nd and 3rd row cuz its lighter and easier to "move".
btw, the +1 seat in Odyssey is very comfortable, it is higher than two seats beside it, the seat itself is 12 in, but it can fit a hip-width over 18 in.
Also, notice that Sienna has the controllable gear from 1 to D(5), the "4th" gear, which can be useful for downhill or passing that Odyssey could not manually adjust to! Also, like the 3rd row fip-out window, fog-light
Odyssey has better safety such as side-air bag, curtain air bag, traction, Vechicle Stability assist!
If two vechicle has all the best feature combine, i am sure it is going to beat the 2007 BMW minivan! hahaha.......
hmm, the 2nd row seat can be moved to give more room. Just because sienna's 2nd row seat can move further back do not mean it's 3rd row leg room is significantly poor. In reality ios about 1.5" difference.
In addition, 3" narrower 3rd row seat on the odyssey means its not smaller than sienna? This logic is absurd. A 3.5" minimal leg difference (which can be adjusted) is a demonstration of worst. While the non-adjustable 3" narrower 3rd seat is odyssey is not smaller than sienna?? If you have a bias, admit as such.
Also, 12" plus one seat is comfortable for an adult? You said yourself, the plus one seat cushion is higher than the seat next to it. So how can anyone feel comfortable with only 12" width?? Also it can magically expand to 18"??
Moreover, last time i check LE is available with pax SRS/3row SRS and VSC. Therefore this should not be advantage for Odyssey.
The seat belt position(slot) on each side are 2 to 3 in away from the +1 seat, which can fit a bigger person!
There are plusses and minuses both ways, but two things stood out to me and I wondered if anyone had any comment:
1. When I test drove the Ody uphill, there was a low thrumming noise that you could hear when you pressed the accelerator. Foot off, noise gone. I didn't hear it in the Sienna. Anyone hear this? It sounded at first like a car was behind me that had a bad muffler and I was hearing that car, but no, it was the Ody.
2. AWD. What does everyone think about the need for AWD in a minivan? We live in Denver, which gets some snow though it melts fast.
This decision is driving me crazy. I'm trying to even get accessories thrown in, but the dealers are pretty firm. Thanks for any input! Our target price is $31-34K, and the offers we are getting are $34K and somewhat above.
What are the quotes for ody and sienna. I live in Denver too and unable to decide between the two.
I am thinking whichever is cheaper i would go for that.
The Odysey 3rd row folding seat is more easily operated than the Sienna. Odyssey 2nd row seats are more comfortable than 2nd row seats of the Sienna. Honda salesmen tend to be more friendly with less pressure than Toyota salesmen.
I have never hear of that noise in the Odyssey that you mentioned. Test drive another Odyssey for a 2nd opinion.
But if I live in Denver, and I've seen their hilly ice streets, I would get AWD and Run-Flat tires. But that's just one opinion.
For me, the interior of Sienna is much more attractive than Odyssey. Just my taste.
Tim
A few factors in our choice of Sienna over Ody:
1. 2nd-year model of Sienna vs. 1st-year model of Ody. We don't want to deal with any 1st-year bugs.
2. Sienna has longer power train warranty (5-year/60K-mile vs. 3-year/36K-mile).
3. quite a few useful features on Sienna (power tail gate, power front passenger seat, power 3rd-row vent windows, 3rd-row sun shades, auto 3-zone climate control, fog lights, auto on/off head lights, day-time running lights, tire pressure monitor, programmable power door lock/unlock, etc.) which the Ody lacks.
4. We couldn't wait.
After owning it for almost 4 weeks (over 1K miles now), we really like its luxurious interior and comfortable ride. It reminds us the Lexus GS (current generation) we once owned.
The regrets I have with it are:
1. It doesn't handle as well or sporty as our 2001 Ody. We test drove the 2005 Odys (both EX-L and Touring). They handle better than Sienna but not as well as the 2001 Ody. Maybe the tires on the 2005 Odys were over inflated.
2. It doesn't have a CD changer, which is replaced with a CD player because of the navigation. The CD player is behind the navitation screen, and it makes it more inconvenient to change CD.
3. No voice command for the navigation.
4. DVD screen is smaller than 2005 Ody. The DVD player is ceiling-mounted behind the 1st row, and we often bump our heads on it even when the screen is closed. It also makes it very difficult (if not impossible) to change/control the DVD from the 1st row.
5. DVD external audio input can't be played on the JBL speakers. Although the input is at the 3rd row and you can't control your external input from the 1st row, it would still be nice if I could play my MP3 on the speakers. Not sure whether the 2005 Ody can do this.
6. Horsepower/torque, which is sufficient but not as powerful as 2005 Ody.
7. premium gas for performance. The first tank from the dealer was regular. I filled premium after that and felt (but not really sure) some improvement in performance. Gas here hovers around $2.50, and I can save over 20 cents per gallon if I use regular.
We found ourselves in a similar situation trying to decide between the Odyssey and the Sienna. Offers for both vehicles were nearly identical in price. We got a sitter for the kids and spent a good hour or so really looking at each vehicle and basically test driving them back to back. Ultimately we went with the Odyssey for a number small reasons that others might not even care about. We still felt we would have been happy with the Sienna as well. We gave the Toyota dealership a chance to beat the price of the Honda. They very reluctantly beat it by $50 and acted like they were making the ultimate sacrifice in doing so. We didn't like this tactic on their part and also felt a $50 savings on a $27,000+ purchase wasn't nearly enough for us to go with our 2nd choice (albeit an extremely close 2nd).
If AWD ends up being important then the Sienna wins out (maybe at that point you want to consider a Pilot, MDX, RX330, or other car-like SUV but with baby carriers, car seats, and small kids the higher step-in height is not as convenient.)
http://www.edmunds.com/news/regularnews/articles/103564/article.h- tml
Sienna is has better and bigger interior. Sienna is quieter than Odyssey. The HVAC control is also placed much better than Odyssey. Sienna has better warranty. Plus for the price you are looking at on the EX-L navi+RES, you could get a Sienna XLE limited already.
If i were you, I would go with Sienna. For 05, Sienna navi is actually more powerful than Odyssey's navi (other than smallish screen, and less voice command- You can activate voice command on the Sienna, requires a $50 mic to be added to the back of navi- no splicing of wires, plug-n-play).
In addition, you might want to look into a sienna xle limited. On the limited, the HID control offers manual height adjustment. It gives Sienna head light 3 times more coverage than Odyssey's headlight (degree setting 0). This is an excellent feature if you do a lot of driving at night.
XLE limited with HO package could be find at $500 to $1000 over invoice. Call around, you should be looking at $36k for limited FWD with pkg 6 +tax and fees.
Sienna is a better van than Odyssey. If you had a chance go for a longer test drive. You will find that toyota switches are more logically placed and more ergnomical. You also get power door swich on the B-pillar (which honda does not have). True 3 zone automatic a/c (only available on the Touring in Odyssey).
I was going to trade in my 2004 Sienna XLE limited for Odyssey touring. But i was able to retrofit 05 navi into an 04 navi. I spend almost a month looking into the Odyssey. Spend several weeks going back and forth. I liked Sienna better. Simply because the design is better other than crappy navi that 2004 Sienna comes with. I was happy when i find out that 2005 navi was retrofittable into my 04. I have not looked back since.
There really is not comparison between Odyssey and Sienna. Although both has draw backs. Sienna's draw back are minor as compare to Odyssey. I can live with more soft steering response, less voice command, and smaller screen. But I don't want a van that has no HID (great safety feature- go test drive a limited at night and change the head light height setting, and drive an Odyssey, you will be amazed). I don't want a van that has smallish 3rd row. I don't want a van with super cheap interior (go compare a touring odyssey and limited sienna, compare the leather, the plastic). I don't like small and cheap a/c control buttons.
It's up to you. However, IMHO, Sienna is a step above Odyssey in many areas, which is hard to overlook.
EX-L navi/RES should be compared to XLE with navi+RES. Which XLE also has more feature. Such as power liftgate.
XLE with pkg 8 is around $38k MSRP, about $34k on invoice. He probably could find one at $34.5k to $35k. But it comes with extra not found on Odyssey.
17" alloy wheels, 2nd and 3rd row sunshade, power liftgate, 2 115V outlet.
Odyssey EX-L with navigation+RES MSRP is $34600. So he can find one at around $33500 (1k off MSRP is about normal right now). So for about 1k more, to get bigger tires/wheels, 2 outlet (not available on the odyssey EX), 3rd row sunshade (couple hundred accessories on the Odyssey EX). No power lift gate. Hmm, which one is less attractive now?
btw, IF YOU WANT VOLUME, go buy a Nissan Quest, 6000L of passenger volume!