Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Daimler's abuse of the Dodge Charger legacy.
This discussion has been closed.
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Recently, one suggested that Dodge wants to return to the car business. Why then, did they put a Chevy S-10 truck front end on a Maverick body and then call it a Charger?
In addition, a promotional video shows Kasey Kahn, Jeremy Mayfield and an apparent Daimler exec gloating over the new Charger at a race track. Of course, the Daimler exec tries to spin the new Charger as something it is not...an heir to the legendary muscle car of the seventies. They even have King Richard fawn his approving eye at the eyesore as it passes around the track.
First of all, the fact that Daimler managed to get Kahn, Mayfield and King Richard within their propaganda ministry only indicates everyone has their price.
You know what? It turns out that if you pay people enough money they'll give the trophy for "The Cutest Baby" to the ugliest kid on the stage. Not only that, but they'll smile about it too.
Actually though, behind the scenes reports have Nascar crews that were seeing the car for the first time commenting (and I paraphrase), "It looks like the family Truckster from the movie National Lampoon's Vacation" and "Thank goodness for the template."
Now you tell me, how many Nascar teams have you ever heard sing the praises of the template? Well, until the 2006 Charger came along my guess would be zero.
Because of its ungainly and disproportionate Streisand-like nose they should call the car the Dodge Focker. Only this time the ones getting focked are those of us who actually appreciate the thoroughbred stance and aesthetic appeal of the original Chargers and that doesn't include the arrogant and clueless Fockers who designed this mutation of automotive engineering.
What was that line? "I knew John Kennedy and you're no John Kennedy." Well, I knew the Dodge Charger and this is no Dodge Charger, plain and simple.
To expedite damage control, there is yet another group of spinners that are defaming the original Chargers to make the 2006 appear to be "not so bad."
Instead it turns out that the 2006 Charger has as much in common with the legendary muscle car of the sixties & seventies as a mosquito has with the American Bald Eagle.
All of you youngsters who have just received your learners permits may disagree with me, it's a free country, but apparently I'm not alone.
You see, Creed, the head of the know-it-all Charger design team admits that an inordinate influx of hate mail is running 30-to-1 against this flounder of a car.
A novel idea would have been for the design team to have actually looked at some of the original Chargers before they even set out to design the car, but they put the quick buck and German automotive tastes first.
I'm not certain, but I don't even believe Trevor Creed is American. How would the Germans or British like it if an American were the lead designer to bring back a classic Porsch, or Jaguar.
In closing, if the car was that great would the Spin Doctors really be necessary?
Have a nice day.
It's a global economy and there are Americans in charge of styling @ BMW and Ferrari, can Porsche and Jag be far behind?
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Hate to see classics destroyed in movies.
Mopar purists are undoubtedly disappointed, but let's be realistic - a mass-market company cannot design cars for purists and hope to remain in business (let alone a mass-market company). The debate over whether the Charger should return as a coupe is lost on over 90 percent of the car-buying public.
The simple fact is that unless the car has a galloping horse on the grille and a "Mustang" nameplate on the side, reasonably priced coupes that share no sheetmetal with a sedan variant are dead in the American market.
People, for whatever reason, do not want them anymore. The days of Chevy Monte Carlos scoring 300,000+ sales annually and Oldsmobile Cutlass Supremes sitting on top of the sales chart are over. Daimler-Chrysler knows this.
At the same time, "Charger" is Dodge's most recognizable nameplate, the marketplace is becoming increasingly cluttered with new entries, and Dodge is coming from behind in the sedan segment...so, the new car is christened "Charger." Like it or not, this makes perfect sense from a business standpoint.
As for the car itself - so far I like it, although I'll reserve final judgment until I actually see one in real life. Judging from the photos, it's distinctive and has a business-like look. Yes, it polarizes people, but I give Daimler-Chrysler credit for making an end run around the Japanese competition and trying something different.
Last time I checked, that strategy seemed to be working pretty well with the Chrysler 300...
All 3 are head-turners, no question. The high beltlines and the gun-slit windows grab your attention, no doubt. But I really like the fastback rear glass of the Charger and the 60s-like kickup of the rear quarter panels, kind of reminiscent of 1965-66 full-size Pontiacs.
But personally, I prefer a lower beltline for visibility and airiness, and although I do prefer more upright windshields, the windshields of these 3 cars are too far forward from the driver's seat for optimum visibility.
I grew up in the heyday of the original Charger, but I was a GM fan back then. Now I buy Japanese, so what do I know ;-)
as a mustang owner i say; no guts, no glory.
the 5 year old(pre d-c) concept was much better.
i think the whole 300 look is because the 'hemi' is such a tall engine(designed to go in a ram pickup).
Oddly, at certain angles, the Charger actually makes me think more of a vintage 300 Letter Series than the new 300 does! It's mainly in the "face" of the car...makes me think a bit of the snout on the '57-59 cars, or even the trapezoidal openings on the 60 and '61-62 models. Or heck, even the '63-64 a bit.
Recently, one suggested that Dodge wants to return to the car business. Why then, did they put a Chevy S-10 truck front end on a Maverick body and then call it a Charger?
In addition, a promotional video shows Kasey Kahn, Jeremy Mayfield and an apparent Daimler exec gloating over the new Charger at a race track. Of course, the Daimler exec tries to spin the new Charger as something it is not...an heir to the legendary muscle car of the seventies. They even have King Richard fawn his approving eye at the eyesore as it passes around the track.
First of all, the fact that Daimler managed to get Kahn, Mayfield and King Richard within their propaganda ministry only indicates everyone has their price.
You know what? It turns out that if you pay people enough money they'll give the trophy for The Cutest Baby to the ugliest kid on the stage. Not only that, but they'll smile about it too.
Actually though, behind the scenes reports have Nascar crews that were seeing the car for the first time commenting that (and I paraphrase), "It looks like the family Truckster from the movie National Lampoon's Vacation" and "Thank goodness for the template."
Now you tell me, how many Nascar teams have you ever heard sing the praises of the template? Well, until the 2006 Charger came along my guess would be zero.
Because of its ungainly and disproportionate Streisand-like nose they should call the car the Dodge Focker. Only this time the ones getting focked are those of us who actually appreciate the thoroughbred stance and aesthetic appeal of the original Chargers and that doesn't include the arrogant and clueless Fockers who designed this mutation of automotive engineering.
What was that line? "I knew John Kennedy and you're no John Kennedy." Well, I knew the Dodge Charger and this is no Dodge Charger, plain and simple.
It turns out that the 2006 Charger has as much in common with the legendary muscle car of the sixties & seventies as a mosquito has with the American Bald Eagle.
All of you youngsters who have just received your learners permits may disagree with me, it's a free country, but apparently I'm not alone.
You see, Creed, the head of the know-it-all Charger design team admits that an inordinate influx of hate mail is running 30-to-1 against this flounder of a car.
A novel idea would have been for Daimler to actually take a ride in some of the original Chargers and to talk to some owners of the cars before starting their work.
Also, I believe I detected an accent while reviewing a promotional (propaganda) film with Trevor Creed.
I have no problem with MR. Creed being from another country if that is the case, but common sense dictates that an American with an American Muscle Car heritage be given the assignment.
How would the British or Germans feel if an American headed up the reintroduction of a classic Jaguar or Porshe? I wouldn't blame them if they were concerned in that case.
Now, if the the 2006 Charger was that great I don't believe the Spin Doctors would really be necessary?
In closing, Daimler missed a platinum opportunity when they didn't go forward with the 1999 Dodge Charger prototype which enjoyed widespread appeal. The bottom line is, if they had done that, instead of the Bait & Switch, there wouldn't be all of this controversy now.
Have a nice day.
And no, I don't work for DaimlerChrysler...in fact I work AGAINST them in lemon law suits.
In my post, I specifically said "reasonably priced" coupes.
I should make myself clearer: reasonably priced = affordable to the majority of buyers.
Neither the Viper coupe nor the Ford GT fit into that category. They sell at the upper fringes of the market.
Their sales success is no more relevant to the mass market than that of Ferrari.
The Crossfire, meanwhile, has pretty much flopped.
Please also note that the Sebring and Stratus coupes will be phased out within two years because they never sold that well.
Convertibles are a different matter - although I would note that the Sebring convertible is based on the sedan platform, so that makes it profitable to keep in production, even with the phase out of the coupe.
rik4: Truth is they are out of touch with the mass public. 2 dr cars or coupes will sell if they are reliable and aesthetic to the eye. THen mustang and Ford GT prove that.
Do not confuse diehard Mopar fans or even the posters on this site with the "mass public." The average car buyer has entirely different standards and expectations - not to mention knowledge of automotive history - than we do.
rik4: Use your theory and make a 4 door mustang and see what happens in sales.
The Mustang is a completely different case. It has remained in production, uninterrupted, for 41 years. During that time, it has always been available as only a two-door. It has never strayed from its original concept - a moderately priced, highly styled coupe or convertible available with both "average" engines and high-performance options.
Mention "Mustang," and most people will think of the car first and the horse second, and they will have a good idea of what that car looks like.
Plus, since there was a 2004 Mustang (and a 2003 Mustang, and a 2002 Mustang, etc., etc.), people expect a reasonable degree of continuity with the format and layout of the 2005 Mustang. There is a ready audience of Mustang buyers.
The Charger went away for over a decade, and I doubt that most people could recall what one looks like. If they do, it is because of The Dukes of Hazzard. At best, the general public has a vague memory of the name, as much because news articles about the new one continually mention the old ones.
Nor do most people remember the 1999 Charger showcar (which, I agree, is beautiful).
People are going to compare this new Charger to the Impala, Grand Prix, Five Hundred/Montego, perhaps the upper-level V-6 Accords and Camrys, maybe the Pontiac Bonneville, and the Intrepid (current Intrepid owners who want to stay in the Mopar family).
For 95 percent of the car buying public, the old Chargers and the 1999 show car are irrelevant to their purchasing decision.
Of course, I guess Dodge could christen it the "Dart," and offer it in trim levels named Seneca, Pioneer and Phoenix.
It is interesting to see all the Impalas on the road. Talk about an emotional icon that managed to make it okay as a FWD car. So, I think the Charger will do just fine with RWD and AWD. And the Impy isn't currently available with 8 boiling pots for motivation. Unless thats now available for 05, I don't know. And everybody that is crying about the Charger knows the history of the Impala. I mean, we're a long way from the Bubble top 409s.
And Chevy sold every single one they made. For 1996, GM sold about as many Impala SSes as they did Caprices, Fleetwoods, and Roadmasters combined!
Then, when the name went away for 1997, everybody was crying. That '94-96 had been put on such a pedestal that when work was begun on the 2000, there's no way it could've lived up to its predecessor's name. Yet the nameplate seems to do just fine today.
One thing in the Impala's defense though, is that its name was never run through the mud like the Charger's was. SS models aside, the Impala was always a good, honest, capable family car, although by 1982-85 it had been pretty much downgraded to a taxi/police car, with most buyers going for the better-trimmed Caprice.
As for the Charger, and the 300, I was kinda hoping that the 4.7 V-8 would've made its way in there, myself. While the Hemi's a great engine, not everybody needs a Hemi, but still might want V-8 power. However, the Hemi is actually CHEAPER to build than the 4.7, and in EPA testing, at least, probably doesn't get any worse mileage than the 4.7, so maybe it just doesn't make good economic sense to offer it in the cars?
I'm 42, and really have limited personal experience with the original Charger, and I'm a car nut (and have been since I was a kid). Most people (the 99% of the population that isn't like us) probably couldn't pick a Charger out of a crowd of cars, unless it is orange with a flag on the roof.
So, if the target audience isn't concerned that it has 4 doors, it has to sell on it's merits. And all this pub if nothing else will make people notice it. Maybe even some of the antis will check it out (morbid curiousity?), and end up wnating one!
Didn't some of the real early "muscle" cars come as 4 doors? The letter cars, some Caddys, etc?
GTO proves that an iconic name isn't enough. The car has to be worth it.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
But prior to 1973, there were plenty of high-performance packages available on regular passenger cars. For example, way back in 1957, Oldsmobile offered a package called the J-2. It was a triple-2bbl setup on an Olds 377, or whatever displacement Olds was using that year. Put out something like 300 hp, and was a real screamer. Being an engine package, and not an actual model, it was available on any body style, so you could even get a 4-door or station wagon J-2.
That same year, Dodge offered two packages. One was called the D-500. It was a 325 Hemi with either a 4-bbl or dual quad, I can't remember which. Then there was the D-501, which was a 354 Hemi with dual quads and, IIRC, 330 hp. Again, these were just engine packages, and could be had in any model, right down to a cheap Coronet 2-door sedan. In contrast Plymouth, DeSoto, and Chrysler fielded low-production high-peformance musclecars, the Fury, Adventurer, and 300C. Sure, the term hadn't been coined yet, but essentially that's what they were: high performance cars with beefed up suspensions, improved steering, wheels and tires, and high-output (not just big displacement) motors.
Then, there was Chevy, which had a 283 with 270 hp, using dual quads in 1957, or 283 hp with fuel injection. I believe you could get these engines with any body style, not just the coupes and convertibles. And Pontiac was offering some multiple-carb options in the late 50's and 60's, which I don't think were limited to any one body style.
As for the Charger, even when it was introduced, it wasn't a pure muscle car in the vein of the GTO. It was actually more of a cross between personal luxury coupe and musclecar. And they were available with just about any engine, whereas something like a GTO would've always started off with a 389 or 400, and a Roadrunner would start off with a 383. You could actually get a 225 Slant Six or a 318-2bbl in a Charger. That's not exactly a musclecar.
It was available in only one color (silver, with gold anodized trim "stripes" on side) and in one bodystyle (a four-door hardtop). It came only with AMC's hottest engine.
stickguy: The original Chrysler "letter series" 300s were never available as four-door sedans or hardtops. Chrysler did bring out a tamer "non-letter series" 300 in 1962 to capitalize on the 300s image, and those were available as four-door hardtops.
Dusty
dustyk: I guess it depends on how one defines "muscle car."
To me, a muscle car should at least have a unique name, trim and drivetrain compared to its more pedestrian counterparts.
Many people, for example, consider the first Olds 88 to be the first "muscle car." I view it as a regular model that offered exceptional performance for the time, thanks to its ohv V-8.
The first Olds muscle car, in my view, was the F-85 based Jetfire of 1962-63.
Actually, the Shelby Charger probably fit the profile pretty well, if you have a broad enough mind to be flexible about engine and drivetrain layout. Small car stuffed with big power (relative), designed to go fast without too much unneccesary stuff on it, and there you go.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
However, those particular V-8's aren't high-performance specialty engines. Just bigger engines in smaller bodies, and they went faster by virtue of having less weight to push.
However the 1955 Chrysler C300 used a special, high-performance 331 Hemi that put out 300 hp. IIRC, the regular 331 Hemi in the New Yorker and Imperial only put out 250 hp. And I think the Windsor only had a 301 poly.
Same with the DeSoto Adventurer and Plymouth Fury for '56. Now, some people will argue that you can't have a full-sized muscle car, but I don't agree with that. First off, a '64 GTO, which is a muscle car, rides a wheelbase the same length as a '56 Fury. 115 inches. Furthermore, I think a '64 GTO is about the same length! And something like a 1973 GTO is going to weigh nearly as much as a '57 Chrysler 300C or DeSoto Adventurer.
If someone wants to consider a '96 Impala SS or a
'64 426 Fury a Muscle car, I can understand that but it doesn't fit the orthodox definition. The were lots of perfectly good performance cars that
don't quite fit the "accepted criteria:
Some were based on compacts, not intermediates--
Chevy Nova SS/327/396, Studebaker Lark R3, Dodge Dart Swinger 318/383.
Many were pony car-based: Camaro SS 427/396, Boss Mustang 429
A lot were based on full -sizers:
Galaxie 406/427, Fury 383/426 Hemi.
Is a '62 Biscayne 4dr with a b-post a "muscle car".? It is if you want it to be and it could outrun many of the classics.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Someone mentioned AMC...I've always been a fan of the underdog and i've always made my purchase of cars different from the mass produced stuff...Since Chrysler swallowed up AMC, do they have the names of AMC as well? Javelin would be a great name to bring back..imho..
However, I think in 0-60 it gets you down from just under 6 seconds to just under 5. It's wonderful for bragging rights, but I dunno if it's really worth the extra money. I know I wouldn't pay it!
I'm sure that a police version would have better chassis dynamics than the Crown Vic, and it is spacious enough to carry perps in the back.
If I were a fleeing evildoer, those cross hairs closing in on my rear bumper would get my attention.
You can download the pdf file of the test here: www.nlectc.org/pdffiles/msp2005bulletin.pdf
In 0-60 it was slower than the Impala or Crown Vic. The Crown Vic has really improved in the past couple years, especially with the 3.55:1 axle ratio. The Magnum is just a hair quicker than the Intrepid 3.5 it replaced. Which, when you figure it's also about 300-400 lb heavier, maybe that's not too bad.
And once you get up to higher speeds, it does start to make up for it. It hits 100 mph slightly quicker than the Impala, but still behind the Crown Vic. And it's electronically limited to 117 mph. The old Intrepid 3.5 was limited to 135 mph, according to the MSP test of the 2003 models.
I'm sure a Hemi Magnum would more than level the playing field though, and send the Crown Vic and Impala crying home to their mommies ;-)
POSTED: 11:03 am EST January 18, 2005
AUBURN HILLS, Mich. -- It appears rapper 50 Cent gets what he wants.
DaimlerChrysler said it's rushing production on its 2006 Dodge Charger to make sure the hip-hop star gets the first one.
The update of the classic muscle car doesn't go on sale until the spring, but 50 Cent reportedly says he can't wait that long.
A Detroit newspaper reported that he told an industry magazine that, "I need to know what I gotta do to get that Dodge Charger first."
The same situation played out last year when the automaker made a special delivery of its Chrysler 300 for rapper Snoop Dogg.
The company said the connections are "worth more money than any advertising you could do in the marketplace."
So what their saying is that Daimler is not only catering to, but seeking publicity from an industry that advocates drug use, thuggery, cop killing and rape.
How many Charger sales do you think Daimler will be making to law enforcement when they learn that?
Apparently, at the same time Daimler is wooing thugs, hoods and murderers some of its executives are telling Chrysler's lifelong customers to take a hike if they don't like the 2006 Charger.
My response to that is okay, I wouldn't give you "50 Cent" for that Ford Maverick look-alike anyway.
P.S. With the violent reputation of the Hip Hop and Gangster Rap music industries Daimler may want to make that an armored Dodge Charger.
btw, i'll let you know if i see '50' rolling in his charger. he owns the biggest house in town.
While I agree with all those upset about only offering a 4 door Charger, I'm surprised that no one is complaining about the lack of a manual shift option in a so called muscle car.
GTO sales are averaging quite a few more 6 speeds sold compared to automatics. The new GTO may have sedate styling, but it is a true muscle car in every aspect otherwise. Serious affordable V8 power, manual shift RWD 2 door sports coupe with an AWESOME interior. The new Charger may sell better to the wannabe crowd but the new 400HP 05 GTO with hood scoops and split duals is the REAL muscle car. Take a test drive, you'll be impressed!!
Hopefully the '05 model feels a little "hairier" for lack of a better term.
Not sure I'd really put the V8 Charger in a "wannabe" crowd. Although yes, I do wish they offered a stick as I'm a manual fan. But I know that would account for a very small percentage of sales in today's market. Still would be nice to offer it though.
I think some of them like the idea of taking something that was once used for law enforcement, and suddenly having their own control over it.
If the 350HP wasn't "hairy" enough the 400HP certainly should be. The Charger Hemi is 340HP and heavier so I doubt it will feel very hairy.
I concider an automatic 4 door sedan a wannabe muscle car even if it has a V8. It wants to be too many things to too many people which immediately makes it a compromise. It will likely sell more(especially to the police) but it is a pretender.
One of my co-workers has a 300C Hemi. When you hear it run, it's actually kind of depressing. There's a bit of whine in one of the pulleys that detracts from it, and overall it just doesn't SOUND all that powerful. If I want to hear a sound like that, all I have to do is fire up my '85 Silverado's 305!
And one of the dumbest things they do with the new Hemi, is put a huge shroud over it! Now the first thing everyone wants to see is that "big" V-8, but you pop the hood and all you see is this big shroud that says "5.7 HEMI" on it. And since OHC heads are so prevalent these days, even those massive Hemi heads have lost a bit of their mistyque. Well, that, and the fact that physically the new Hemi is pretty dainty compared to the old 426 Hemi of days gone by, or the old Dodge Red Ram, DeSoto Firedome, or Chrysler Firepower Hemis of the 50's.
Maybe they cover up the engine because the designers of the new car get "head envy" when they get a look at those massive, beefy, thick heads that the old cars had, so they feel a bit inadquate in comparison and are ashamed to show theirs off? ;-)
Y'know, all this talk about the Charger IS starting to make me want one, more and more. And I'm getting an HELOC this Friday, so I'm starting to feel like I'm in a precarious position! ;-)
And clearly, they add some supposed "class" to the engine compartment.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93