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Comments
Subaru knows what they're up against. We're only seeing little glimpses here and there, and doing a ton of speculating. I bet Patti's right in that we will be pleasantly surprised.
Bob
It better be Suba-sized on the production version. :-)
DaveM
Yes Patti you are correct! At this stage everything is speculative! I hope I will be pleasantly surprised.
Derek
I think someone already pointed out the Alfa connection... I definitely agree!
Very nice; I think it will be a point of differentiation.
~alpha
That would be a bummer
So, will there be non-moonroof option?
-Dave
Bob
That's because they could later come out with the Sport model and delete those to get the price to $29,999. Maybe I'm too optimistic.
Can a hybrid tow? Well, I think current ones are setup for light duty to get peak efficiency, so not a Prius.
But already we see the Accord hybrid tuned for performance, it's 1/2 second quicker to 60mph than the V6 model.
So I'm sure they could tune a hybrid to tow, if that's the goal.
2.5T in the base Sport model? I don't think so. If you look now, the Outback LL Bean actually sells for less than the Outback XT Limited. So the H6 is actually cheaper.
Although they did set the MSRP lower for the 2.5T. I wonder if it's cheaper to build, though.
I'd be more than happy with a 2.5T Sport model with cloth and no moonroof as long as the price was right.
RX has cloth standard, eh? Guess I've never seen one. And doesn't the ML come with leatherette, or is it really cloth?
-juice
That could be a problem... The Escape hybrid can only tow 1000, while the regular Escape can tow up to 3500.
If the B9X does come in a hybrid version, I hope that it can match or better the non-hybrid versions, and not follow the Ford Escape hybrid, by down-rating the the towing. That would be a BIG mistake IMO.
Anyone know what the Highlander/RX400h are rated to tow? That, I think, would be a good guide as to what a B9Xh might be able to tow.
Bob
ok,I have to be very carefull with this but I feel its my duty to calm everyone down about about the pricing on this car.I have it from very good sources that this cars price will range from $32-38k denpding on trim level.There are going to be some very surprising things different between the cars that are 32k and the ones that are 38k though.......wish I could say more but some of you may remember all the trouble I had with giving out too much info about the new Legacy and Outback,so I am walking on eggshells a bit with what I know...
Bob
I'm just looking at this from a "first principle" analysis point of view. Roughly half of the output is delivered by the electric motor and half from a down-sized gasoline engine, give or take.
What do you do when you're towing a heavy load across the country after you've run the battery down ? I don't see how the down-sized gasoline engine can possibly handle a heavy load by itself, certainly not in a comparable manner to the non-hybrid version with its much larger displacement.
Am I missing something here ? I don't think it's just "tuning". I think that the output available from the gasoline engine places some upper limit on the towing capacity, practically speaking, even if the electric side is available to help with "surge" demands.
-brianV
ok,I can tell you that only engine available will the 250hp 3 liter and all models will come with VDC std.......
and...
lets put it this way,don't "assume" that every version will have 7 passenger seating....
Could there be a B9X Wagonaire/XUV in the works?
Bob
I just got a big "Nope...." on that. Soooooo, I guess I guess that means a 5-passenger version, sans 3rd-row seating, is probably in the works too. Most likely the $32K model, I bet.
If that's true, that's good. I think there are a lot of people who would be interested in this vehicle, who don't want or need 7 passenger seating; my next door neighbor for one—and me for another.
Bob
Bob
John
Ive been offline for several months to deal with some projects at work and, along the way, put several thousand miles on my 04 FXT..what a great car..for me. As for other people:
Recent election results notwithstanding, nobody who makes AWD vehicles is confused about the waiting lists to get a small-to-mid-sized Ford, Lexus or Toyota SUV hybrid..the demand is tremendous! Nissan and Daimler Chrysler went the opposite direction with big vehicles and bigger powerplants ....and there are an awful lot of FX's, Muranos, Liberty's and Pacifica's marked way down and gathering dust on dealers lots. I drove past DC's staging lot along I-75 in the north end of Toledo, OH a few weeks ago...there were new Liberty's and Grand Cherokees as far as the eye could see. Even here in Subaru heaven (Asheville, NC), I am one of only three FXT drivers I am aware of, compared to the hundreds of NA Foresters I see every week. Likewise, 05 NA OB's are selling like hotcakes here...but Ive yet to see an OB FXT or Legacy GT on the road. There is limited attraction, for most folks, to a car that gets poorer MPG using gas that cost 10% more than the exact same car that lacks only the inability to blow past 99% of the other cars on the road...a feature my wife has yet to find useful even though she sneaks off with the FXT every chance she gets. The attraction is the amazing utility and drivability of the Forester at a great price, features that have us thinking of another Forester if the new seven seater is less than amazing.
If they are smart, and, with exception of the proposed name(B9X? not even on a dare!)I believe they have been smart thus far, Subaru will not compete with the bigger-is-better 7 seaters, and will, instead, offer a 5 or 7 seat vehicle that competes , in terms of utility, directly with the Highlander but leverages Subaru's cache as a sportier AWD marque than the bland Camry-cousin.
I look for the new 7 seater to offer added-value safety features like stability control as a standard feature on all trim levels in addition to side curtain airbags that already have caught the attention of buyers who never thought they would consider a Subaru. Look for a truly comfortable cabin with room for 3 "American" adults in the second row, maybe a quad-bucket option, and disappearing third row seats designed mostly for small people...for families who want the flexibility of taking an extra child or two to the beach or the ballgame on occasion, roomy cargo area the rest of the time. Let's be serious: families with 6 or 7 people in the car most of the time get a mini-van or a Brute-Ute like a Suburban.
I hope the sketches are misleading and that the rear end will be boxier and have more of a greenhouse than the sketches thus far, thereby retaining the great visibility and true cargo-carrying ability of the Forester. Only a die hard Pacifica, Murano or FX devotee won't admit the visibility problems and cargo limitations in those designs. I expect a larger grille opening than the sketches.
I look for a 3.0 boxer with , with VVT and tuned specifically for this vehicle, which I hope will come in just under 4000 lbs. A 6 speed auto , no manual option: 3500 pound towing capacity....a pop up camper or a bass boat. The market-driven engine option for this segment is a hybrid powerplant, not a 375HP 3.0 turbo. Those folks can buy a WRX STi if they want to go really fast or a Nissan Titan if they want to tow a 6-horse trailer.
I look for Nav, moonroof, premium audio and leather as option-only, probably in combo packages like the current Subaru vehicles.
As alluded to above, "B9X" is the only name that could possibly be worse than "Tribeca". I would bet the farm that name is a "rabbit" for speculators to chase while SoA does secret market research on other possibilities as they get closer to a "final" production prototype..i.e., a name to match the car. I expect a different name in Detroit, one that has a definite sport-outdoors connotation, and I wouldn't exclude a not-so-subtle L.L. Bean tie-in.
Based on my election selections, at most one of my predictions is correct! ;_)
Mark
Patti
Ha! Thats great.
Except... the Infiniti really isnt having hard time selling the FX (sales up 12% this year), nor is the Murano doing poorly (up 5%) this year.
(Side note: It seems anything coming out of Nissan's Canton, MS plant however, has bombed in the latest round of Consumer Reports surveys- the Armada and Quest have both posted Much Worse than Average rankings).
~alpha
Well I hope this gave some people pause
Thanks
LVJ II
If so the lineup could look like this:
$32k for base 5 seater
$33k for base 7 seater
$35k for 5 seater Ltd (leather/moonroof)
$36k for 7 seater Ltd (leather/moonroof)
$38k for 7 seater Ltd with Nav
That would mesh well with the current lineup. The VDC costs $33,495, but it has the Ltd equipment, so the B9X equivalent would cost about $1500 more.
Sounds reasonable.
-juice
That might mean the 3rd row is more like the Highlander and less like the Pilot, though, i.e. only for little kids.
I hope the center console is wide enough for two elbows to rest there, and maybe to rest a portable DVD or laptop there, for those of us that can't afford the $38k model.
-juice
I wonder what Subaru will do with the extra space in the 5-passenger model's cargo area where the rear seats would fold down (supposedly folding flat into the floor).
Yes, that word "available" pretty much confirms that 7-passenger seating will not be for all models.
Bob
I bet that image of the logo is from the B9X's rear hatch.
Bob
While he hasn't seen it himself, he seemed to be pretty well versed on many details through discussions with the owner of the dealership, who supposedly knows more about it.
He stated the certainty that there will be 5 and 7 passenger versions. (Note, a previous poster theorized that if the 3rd row is optional, it will likely be for kids only like to Highlander, however we should all note that the Volvo XC-90's third row is optional yet has a decent sized third row when the 2nd row seats are moved a few notches forward.)
He said that all versions will have at least 6, maybe 8 airbags standard, including side curtains.
He didn't have too many other details to dispel (at least that he told me), but he exuded an extremely high level of confidence that Subaru had a winner and had done their homework. He said this in response to my rhetorical question as to how well Subaru will compete with the Pilot and XC90 in terms of price, performance, and content.
When I complained that it was only a 3 liter engine, he said something about there being several versions being planned, but he wouldn't tell me anything further. He defended that the performance of the 3 liter should be competitive based on the HP and torque ratings. I hope he's right.
Granted, he is a salesperson, but I sensed a genuine honesty that he is excited for Subaru to get this product and that they are going to sell like hotcakes.
Usually, you hear about dealerships being mad at the manufacturers for not launching competitive models consumers want, so to hear a dealer say that it is going to be awesome gives me more confidence in Subaru. At this point, I think we need to wait and see the real specs rather than sit here for weeks on end guessing if Subaru is going to deliver. Although it sure is fun to speculate!
We shall see.... my $.02.
Elliot
Good to hear the dealers are enthusiastic, they really know what sells.
-juice
Owen
-juice
• 3.0 H-6. Not sure about anything else pertaining this engine. Turbo? Hybrid-assist? Re-tuned for more torque? Something else?
• VDC on all models is rumored. Does that mean only automatics, or has Subaru incorporated a VDC with a manual too? Most likely it also means VDT and a 45/55 front-to-rear power split, which is good.
• Moonroof on all models is rumored, which is good IMO.
• 5 and 7 passenger seating. I think having this choice is good.
• NAV and rear DVD is a given, at least on some models, if even only as an option. One image of the test mule showed the right front passenger door open with something covering the center stack of th dash, which suggests to me that a NAV unit was on that model, and that they were trying to hide it from the spy camera.
• No word on on transmissions whatsoever. Does this mean no surprises here, or really big surprises here?
• Towing? One image showed what appears to be a small Class II hitch receiver. I hope that's standard, and that a full Class III option will be available. I think a lot will depend on the engine choice(s) available.
• 18" wheels are rumored, and the images of the test mule seem to confirm that.
• Pricing from $32K – $38K.
• Styling, from what we can see, appears to combine elements from both the R1E and B9SC.
• The B9SC hybrid also had a height-adjustable suspension. Will that make it into the the B9X?
Did I miss anything?
Bob
Bob
Add to your list 250hp, I think that was mentioned specifically for the 3.0l H6. My guess is it won't be retuned at all, at least not from the get-go. This engine was making 212hp back in March of this year.
I definitely think it'll be auto-only for now at least.
And yes, it's basically everything I want in a vehicle, very "complete", if you will. Think back to a few years back and the only wish it might not meet is the 20 mpg city.
And before Colin beats me over the head with his oil barrel, I think I can live it if it's near best-in-class for fuel efficiency. :P
Price is key, though. I paid $11k for my first new car, $19k for my 2nd, and now...$32k? Without DVD or Nav or leather?
Plus we are indeed house poor. That 2nd mortgage payment is felt, trust me. What I might do is re-finance the house in a year or two and combine the two loans into one.
That would free us up for a B9X.
Finally, I don't necessarily want a v1.0, for lots of reasons, not just the early bugs but also the fact that discounts only set in later, at least a year after launch.
2005 Legacys are now selling for $400 under invoice, right? Already that's a grand or two less then people paid in March. So it doesn't take long for discounts to set in even on a nice vehicle, the market is just that competitive.
So if $32k is the starting price, invoice is usually 10% less, or about $28,800, $400 under would put it at $28,400.
I think I could talk the boss into that. Maybe even a grand more with a DVD.
-juice
John
Unfortunately (well, fortunately for Subaru), Chevy fell short with the Equinox, as it has been getting generally low ratings due to its terrible electric steering, poor build quality, and unrefined Chinese-made engine.
In the end, it will be a good notch or two below the B9X and I do not see the two competing for the same type of customers. I.E., If I only cared about size and price and not performance and refinement, I might be driving, say, a Kia Sportage, instead of a Forester. They aren't even comparable! (Incidentally, the Sportage is being resurrected with a twin to the new car-based Hyundai Tuscan, so perhaps the Forester will have some increasing competition soon... but I digress.)
Elliot
But it's light duty, and shares a platform with the Vue. Space efficiency is sort of poor, so it's kind of a small mid-size. I think a CR-V has more room.
I think it's handsome outside, but mostly my feelings for the Nox are "close but no cigar".
I don't see it competing with the B9X at all, though. The Nox is basic and cheap, while the Subie ought to be upscale and well equipped, as well as pricier. B9X will overlap with the TrailBlazer in terms of price (but that's a truck).
So I don't think Chevy makes anything that'll compete with the B9X, it's certainly not where Subaru wants to be. A Buick Rendezvous might, indirectly.
-juice
Pretty wimpy engine for such a heavy vehicle, though: 185hp for 3776lbs curb (5070lbs gross!). Only about 1200 lbs towing, if I remember correctly.
-juice
-Dennis
Sorry for the inside joke, fellas. ;-)
-juice
Sliding doors?
Two engines, one being a twin turbo?
The Brits are great for throwing new twists on any given subject. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're not.
Bob
new 2.5-litre unit is also planned
For europe only? Turbo? Or an economy model for their gas prices? I'd love to see a lower-priced 2.5T slot in below the $32 grand H6 base.
new range of flat-four diesel engines
With help from Isuzu and Posche. Will we see these? US gets low-sulfur diesel fuels starting in 2007 I believe. Diesels options are popping up already. Touareg has a V6 diesel in Europe now, would the B9X get one to compete in that arena?
six-speed manual gearbox as standard
On the next Impreza? Could be a good way to boost mileage.
-juice
It would be labeled a minivan immediately, and it simply could not compete on price in that arena, with even the better vans starting around $25k.
I would not mind sliding doors personally, but I think this would be a huge mistake in terms of marketing it as an SUV, which lets you charge more for it.
-juice
As to sliding doors? I don't recall seeing any indication of that on the test mule photos we've seen. Now what if the test mule images were of the 5-passenger model? Could the 7-passenger model have sliding doors? I kinda doubt it.
Bob
I'd be the first to plunk my deposit down. But even if it's only for europe I'll just have to find someway to import it. I'll drop one in a 1990's Vanagon for the perfect family cruiser.
Eric
Sliding doors are extremely unlikely. Though I don't think we saw a pic with the rear door open, so you never know.
New 2.5l with AVCS and 180hp would be sweet.
-juice