Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

michaellno · January 2009

jrosasmc: I inherited a similar car from my FIL when he passed away .. was a '92 Subaru Legacy wagon. It, too, had the 2.2L but was equipped with a 5-speed. Had almost 140K on the clock when I got it. Didn't do much to it other than fix the drivers side door lock and change the oil before I drove it to CA from CO (1100 miles) to present to my son as a HS graduation gift.

In the year and a half that he owned it, he needed to replace the clutch, put on new tires and address a couple of small electrical issues (alternator, IIRC). However, he just bought himself a '97 Mustang so the Subaru is going up for sale.

qbrozen · January 2009

I was able to purchase an aftermarket adjustable swaybar for our '98 Forester, so I'd imagine the same to be true of the Legacy. It made a HUGE difference in handling (for the better, of course). Those just have really horrible understeer from the factory, IMHO. Not sure how different the legacy is in that regard.

FYi, we just bought a '99 L wagon for my brother. 95k on the clock, very clean, for $4k.

As some of you may recall, I purchased a '90 volvo 740 wagon for him about 2 years ago with about 99k on it. He blew the tranny at 135k. Took it to a friend of a friend who supposedly put in a rebuilt one. That one lasted 5k miles. The shop who did the work has been dodging his calls for the past month. Go figure.

Now, that volvo would probably have lasted most people for years and years to come, and I only paid $1100 for it. I bite my nails when I think about him spending $4k on this Subaru and hoping it will go 200k.

qbrozen · January 2009

well, I thought the guy was asking for advice on the Z. Told him I knew little and asked for advice elsewhere and that advice was $7k-$8k. I proceeded to tell him I think his $10k asking price is terribly insane and if he had the time to wait, the right buyer might come along.

Apparently he thought this to be an offer and replied he'd take $7500 for it. Hahah. Ummm... no thanks, man. I have no interest in an '81 w/ a 5.0.

texases · January 2009

"I was able to purchase an aftermarket adjustable swaybar for our '98 Forester,"

Where'd you get it? I'm thinking of doing that to my '07 Forester. And what wheels/tires are you using?

qbrozen · January 2009

we don't have the vehicle anymore, but it just had the stock wheels (16") and I don't remember the tires.

oh, man. i gotta try to remember where i got it? it was a place in Australia, I know that much. And, IIRC, it was a 22mm bar. This was back in like '01 or '02, mind you.

texases · January 2009

OK, nevermind. I found these from Cobb Tuning: Forester anti roll bars

qbrozen · January 2009

well, i tried to go back and search the forester discussion for my posts. all i can find is that I had a 20-24mm adjustable bar.

also checked subaruWRXparts.com for you and they only list a front bar for yours. weird.

oregonboy · January 2009

Check with Juice over in the "Subaru-Crew". He had a '98 Forester. I believe that he put a WRX rear bar on his... maybe 22mm.

texases · January 2009

Will do.

lokki · January 2009

Everything Reduced!!!!!!

"...built by the craftsman of Money Pit Restorations..."
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/ctd/983922363.html

"Be Still My Heart is what you will say to yourself when you see this car..."
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/ctd/983900816.html

:... built with everything you could be looking for."
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/ctd/983897268.html

"And the motor sounds even better!"
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/cto/976849967.html

"AS IF IT WASN'T BAD ENOUGH FROM THE FACTORY..."
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/cto/967094734.html

"This is a very nice car done in the old school hot rod style"
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/ctd/958937784.html

"There Is No Mistaking Her Coming Down The Road."
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/ctd/958930447.html

The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly....
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/cto/963048918.html

If this car is so valuable, how did it end up in this condition?
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/cto/985287259.html

fintail · January 2009

I loathe custom cars...usually built to the discriminating tastes of some yokel, they all seem to get the same cliched Billet steering wheels, and the "value" is calculated with backyard mechanic labor at $200/hr.

xwesx · January 2009

Yeah, half of those were offered by the same seller.

I wonder, is a "Mustang II" front suspension a good thing?

boomchek · January 2009

That Freelander is cheap, but then the repairs will set you back a few grand. Wouldn't be surprised if one needs to sink another $5-8k into it to fix everything.

Seems like broken luxury vehicles of yesteryear (let's say the 90s and 00s) have become throwaway vehicles of today.

I know nothing about values of old hot rods like the Pontiac Judge convertible, but I think $77k is a bit steep.

lokki · January 2009

Half of them are posted by the same seller? Wow! I hadn't noticed that.

How would you like to be sitting on half a million dollars worth of toys like that in a market like this? I bet that guy has switched to smoking cheaper cigars....and sweating a lot.

I don't think that customs like these hold their value like a Ferarri et al does in bad times.

ON that Judge, I'm thinking that price is an awful lot to pay for a VIN number.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2009

The Appraiser's Equation for evaluating custom rods is:

Total Investment
----------------------- = actual market value (maybe)
2

qbrozen · January 2009

5. at just 18 years old, its already a collector car
4. AC works very well even without freon!
3. it was built so poorly at the factory that major repairs improve the vehicle
2. salvage title increases value
1. it has the ability to sleep!

This one is real special because it has "full suspension"

"I cant tell if there is a leak or just when I open the trunk..."

Mr_Shiftright · January 2009

I thought only Camaro owners had trouble making sense. :P

Hmmm...."collector car" insurance on a modern MR2 with a salvage title? I'd love to know the company that wrote THAT policy, and if they did write it, how much they knew about the car's title. The appraisal on the car would also be an amusing read.

qbrozen · January 2009

good question on the insurance. i would email the seller and ask, but i'm not sure how to word it without being offensive.

guss · January 2009

I like what's behind door # 2 much better. Seems to be unmolested and the original interior looks to be in excellent shape. Being the original owner is a huge plus, if he has all the receipts you better start bidding it is not going to stay at $2500.

Door # 1 is looking for the right buyer because this is a "feeler sale only". Sounds like the kids at the park should be nervous.

qbrozen · January 2009

with no turbo and bad bearings and questionable AC, I'm not sure door #2 SHOULD go that high.

explorerx4 · January 2009

just write the seller that you would want to do the same thing for insurance coverage and what company is that?

bumpy · January 2009

This in no way, shape, or form, can be considered a "luxury car".

Aside from the vinyl, I think this is the same interior.

I wonder if the surfboard has the wreath & crest on it.

Last of the andremobiles.

A fitting end for malaise-era luxury.

Let's complete the trifecta.

I forget, was the turbo a portent of doom in these?

hpmctorque · January 2009

True, the '99 LeSabre isn't a luxury car, but unless I missed it, the seller makes no claim regarding luxury.

The Dodge Dart sedan, on the other hand, is clearly not a classic, as the seller claims it is.

lokki · January 2009

Luxury Le Sabre..... I think what you mean is that if Buick is supposed to represent luxury, it's either not a Buick or Buick doesn't represent luxury. A sad use of the Le Sabre name.

As for the rest, you've certainly reminded me of what a sad time the end of the 70's were.

I do have to say, though, that I always kind of liked the Nova based Seville.... at least it wasn't FWD and looked (to my eyes) a lot better than the rest of the Caddy family in those days.

And on the Dart, I think by 76 they'd stripped out all the things that made a slant six such a great engine.... like most of the bearings. Is it not so, Andre?

Mr_Shiftright · January 2009

90 volvo turbo -- like all turbo cars of that era, they were more fragile than their NA counterparts. I think higher engine temperatures caused by turbo power were not as well dealt with as they are today.

79 Seville -- well at least we know that 30 years doesn't make one of these valuable. Maybe 50?

Ah, the late 70s. Now you know why wrecking yards don't want to keep these cars for people---no profit in them.

boomchek · January 2009

That Dodge is the same as the one used in the movie Duel. I've been starting to like them recently. Thye're cheap and simple.

explorerx4 · January 2009

hah! i beat andre to it. the car in Duel was a plymouth valiant signet.
i typed viliant by mistake(i think) the first time.

gsemike · January 2009

Really Wes. Educate us how about how much it's worth.

What is a mint Eldo convertible of that vitage, 10 grand amd he's advertising no mice???? Call the junkyard

Mr_Shiftright · January 2009

Yeah about 10,000 bucks for a clean driver 85 Eldo convertible, and maybe $15,000 for a show car. So given the condition of this car, and what you'd have to put into it, it is actually worth.......nothing. Well okay if you brought it to the yard, maybe $35.

I'd say Acme Auto Wrecking, hence to crusher, then by rail to New York harbor, then to Turkey, then to a tourist teapot factory.

Harsh you say? Well he's the one who destroyed it, so let him suffer the consequences, not the innocent buying public.

andre1969 · January 2009

And on the Dart, I think by 76 they'd stripped out all the things that made a slant six such a great engine.... like most of the bearings. Is it not so, Andre?

I dunno about bearings, but I heard that at some point in the 1970's, Mopar went from a forged crankshaft to a cast crankshaft in their engines, and that made them less durable than before. The main issue with the slant six is that it adapted very poorly to emissions controls. The engine tended to run cool, but cleaner emissions demanded a hotter-running engine, and the slant six just didn't like that. FWIW, Pontiac had a similar problem with their V-8 engines, and they never did get them right. I heard that in 1977, California banned Pontiac V-8's in new cars. Dunno if the slant six ever got banned, though.

Oh, and whenever they started putting Lean Burn on the slant six, that certainly didn't help, either! I think that was 1975, but I could be wrong. My grandparents had a '75 Dart Swinger, and swore it was the worst car they ever owned! It would stall out randomly, and the dealer never could get it fixed right.

Also at some point, I think they went to either an aluminum exhaust manifold, or just a really cheaply cast metal one. It tended to crack, right in the middle. That may have been later than 1976, though.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2009

That's true. The Slant 6 was a very cold-blooded engine, which accounts for the fact that most of them get very sludged up, which accounts for the fact that most have blow-by and burn oil. ON the other hand, all that sludge doesn't seem to have stopped them very often. They are such simple, almost agricultural engines, that they seem to just plug along no matter what.

Sturdiness is next to godliness.

lemko · January 2009

Here's a whole car museum for sale:

Car Museum Owner Looks for Buyer

fintail · January 2009

Over time I have developed a respect for the old Valiant/Dart series and their derivatives. They are kind of as close as the big 3 got to making something along the lines of a sturdy diesel MB. They have a simple engine capable of going long distances with abuse and neglect, they have styling that was usually simple and homogeneous, they were practical and didn't make any false pretenses. They were a decent effort for the time, all things considered.

fintail · January 2009

That's an interesting idea, focused around a particular year or timeframe...but he better have a lot of cars to justify 17M. Maybe if there are some 57 Ferraris, 300SLs etc lurking around.

boomchek · January 2009

Nice. Not sure if he'll get that kinda $$ for it like someone wrote in the article. I like car museums.

Speaking of that actually, Shifty, you're from San Francisco correct?

Any car related museums or things to see there? Wife and I are taking a small vacation by driving down there for about a week in February. I always like to catch some automobilia related places when in a different city.

berri · January 2009

I was fortunate enough to see this last year in Branson. What a great place. The collection is not just convertibles and coupes, also sedans, wagons and pickup trucks along with a lot of memorabilia. Don't know if its still open. I think its hard to finance car museums any more.

fintail · January 2009

Not a project, but maybe a good car to drive for the money...wheels are wrong, but it's a very rare (maybe not excellent) color. These cars are a nice amount of bang for the buck.

texases · January 2009

That E55 would be fun, what's the mpt (miles per ticket)? :surprise:

hpmctorque · January 2009

"Also at some point, I think they went to either an aluminum exhaust manifold, or just a really cheaply cast metal one. It tended to crack, right in the middle. That may have been later than 1976, though."

My parents' '68 Dart Slant 6 had a cracked manifold. They took it to several independent shops, because it ran so badly due to the manifold, but no one realized the manifold was cracked. Finally, in frustration, they traded it, and only after they had sold it did they find out what the real problem was. So, the cracked manifold problem occurred some time in the '60s, unless theirs was an isolated case. From what we learned later, though, I suspect that this problem occurred earlier than the mid-'70s.

This is another example of a domestic manufacturer causing a lot of avoidable aggravation and expense to save a small amount per car. Apparently, the auto makers didn't realize how such decisions would damage their reputations. It's a variation on the proverbial story of the straw that broke the camel's back, repeated over and over again in the '60s, '70s and '80s, until - SURPRISE! - many people abandoned American cars for Japanese ones.

The European cars had their own quality issues, but compensated, to some extent, by being more satisfying to drive.

explorerx4 · January 2009

my mother had a '74 dart with a slant six until '84, her usual get a new chrysler product every 10 years. the car never had any problems.

xwesx · January 2009

Oooh, that is a pretty car. Too bad it is an auto (or... maybe not?).

texases · January 2009

Aren't all AMGs automatics? I think for a sedan like this I'd prefer an auto, anyway.

fintail · January 2009

They were all autos. All AMGs are auto.

Regarding tickets per mile...these older models are pretty stealthy, sleepers...if you debadge it the average person won't know it from an ordinary 6cyl car...so I bet the cops don't give it a lot of attention.

210delray · January 2009

Maybe Mopar did cheap out on some of the components of the Valiant/Dart over the years. But one thing is true in my area (central VA), where we don't have too much salt on the roads in winter compared to more northern states, these are the oldest unrestored cars I see in use. There's an older man that lives near me with a near-pristine '73 Valiant 4-door (the model year is on his vanity plates). Then there's a workhorse Dart, either a '65 or '66 sedan that I often see parked at the local grocery store. It's not all that beautiful, but clearly it still is a driver. There also used to be a red '65 Dart hardtop that I'd see quite often chugging along, but it's been a couple of years or so since I last saw it.

When these cars were new, I didn't really pay much attention to them. I was a big fan of GM's large and midsize cars. But I have to say those particular Mopars get my respect now.

hpmctorque · January 2009

I agree with you. the Slant 6 engine and Torqueflyte transmission were extremely solid. I just gave an example of a component that caused grief. If the cracked manifold had been identified and replaced earlier, the car would have provided years of additional service.

andre1969 · January 2009

I remember some review of the Dart/Valiant, years ago, where they joked it was one of the worst cars ever made. Their reason was that the cars tended to leak water through the fresh air intake, but otherwise the cars were so durable that they'd subject their owners to the water torture long after most ordinary cars had long since been junked! :P

I think one reason Chrysler got their compacts pretty much right, from the get-go, is that in 1960, all of their cars went unitized, with the exception of Imperial. So they probably cross-utilized what they were learning from the bigger cars and applying it to the smaller ones. While GM and Ford were trying to get their compacts built as cheaply as possible, and they tended to be inferior to the bigger cars, in many ways the compact Valiant and Lancer (replaced by the Dart for 1963) were basically scaled down versions of the big cars.

One reason the slant six might have ended up being so durable is that it was designed to be used in both small cars and big cars, plus trucks. In contrast, the little Falcon 6 and Corvair 6 were designed for small, lightweight cars, although the Falcon 6 did end up in cars as big as the late 60's Fairlane. GM followed in Chrysler's footsteps when they came out with the 194.5 CID 6-cyl for 1962. It started off as a Chevy II engine, was offered in the Chevelle when it first came out, and was durable enough to spawn 230 and 250 CID versions that moved full-sized cars and trucks.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2009

Re: Dodge Dart Slant Six -- one of the motor's virtues was its utter lack of sophistication. It's basically a wood stove with some moving parts in it. Every time I would rebuild one, I'd wonder if there were parts missing. :P The bottom ends were very strong (I can't recall ever seeing one throw a rod) but 9 out of 10 of them were very sludged up when you took them apart. People were always amazed when the engines were rebuilt, as they were not used to a Slant Six that actually still retained all its horsepower. Most people were driving cripples without knowing it. Similar, ironically, to the Benz 300 diesel motors.

The Corvair, on the other hand, was a very sophisticated and technically advanced engine, with all the ensuing problems that can bring with it.

The Falcon 6 managed to be both crude AND ineffective. Congratulations.

RE: SAn Francisco Automotive Attractions --- actually SF is not a car town. They can't stage successful auctions here and there are no auto museums in the city proper.

Best car viewing would be Fantasy Junction in Emeryville (near Berkeley) and of course the Blackhawk Museum in Danville. If you are into American cars, a dealership in Dublin is Kassabian Motors--they have a great showroom of stuff. Fantasy Junction is more very high end foreign exotics and vintage race cars.

xwesx · January 2009

Well, shows how much I (don't) know about them. I still think it is pretty, but I would never consider owning one.

qbrozen · January 2009

I've been keeping one eye out for one of these as my toy car. Don't think the wife would ever go for it, though. Plus, when it comes down to it, its probably not a helluva lot different than my G35X. Sure, its got a bit more grunt, but still a heavy sedan and they would probably put down similar numbers at the autoX, I would think (thanks to the G's AWD).

Now, a full-on open racetrack? That might be a different story.

Something popped up in the autoshopper that caught my eye this morning. A '74 MGBGT.

Question is, for the same money, would I be better off with a Miata? My guess is yes, although I won't look nearly as cool.

fintail · January 2009

Yeah, I wouldn't want to take something so big and heavy to an autox, it needs an open road to shine...these cars are good for around 300kmh when de-restricted. The 60-120mph acceleration is amazing, only a little slower than a newer kompressor E55, but a lot cheaper and less troublesome. Of course, with the way the market is collapsing, the E63 will be pretty cheap in just a few years, that could be fun too.

That MG looks very good, but I think the older ones are more highly regarded.

Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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