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Comments
The experts may say yes,but I fail to see the relevance of the bumpers.But in answer,no,they do not last as long as the metal ones.
The bumpers are not exposed to the extremes of heating and cooling over short periods of time that the manifolds are subject to.Also the corrosive qualities of the water and coolant mixtures over time.
The point I was trying to make was Nissan had their vehicle out for 10 months (I think) before Ford brought out the ST. There was no competition for Nissan to improve upon; Ford had Nissan. I would expect that any company that comes to a market late, would want to offer something "new & Improved" to capture market share. Coming out with something that hasn't learned from the mistakes of a competitors products isn't wise; and I think Ford took that to heart and improved on some perceived weaknesses of the CC; ie.. bigger engine, more rear leg room, automatic back window, etc.. Now it is Nissans turn to have the opportunity to fix it's weaknesses and imporve upon Ford's; IF THEY CAN.
I think it is completely fair to measure the 2001CC against your 2001ST as you are comparing your vehicle against a vehicle design almost a year older. So, if Ford can have a much faster engineering turn around time and put out an updated ST in the fall when Nissan does; more power too them! and yes compare it to the CC. But if they don't, then it is fair to compare your ST to the new 2001CC.
That all being said, who knows if Nissan will improve the CC's weaknesses, or add extras? The only thing I have heard is the increased HP/torque (that should shut Vince up for about 2 secs!) and they have made it "look" tougher - in my opinion they have made it look less sleek and more like the ST.
So,do I understand that you are implying that
Siemens is affiliated with Ford?
Siemens Automotive division is a supplier to most if not all Auto manufactures world wide. They are NOT after market. They supply the parts that manufacturers use to build cars.
Siemens makes,
Electric Window Motors
Cruise Controls
Brake Systems
Fuel Injectors
Anti Lock Brake Systems
Traction Control Systems
Composite Manifolds
and many many more that I don't recall.
Nissan uses Siemens Composite Parts on some of their cars so I guess they think its ok.
I don't want to get into detail about the bumper issue I was just trying to point out that IMHO the plastic bumpers do just as well as the metal ones despite being sand blasted, road salt, Snow, Ice, Sun UV. All the plastic bumpers I had looked fine at 100,000 miles when I sold them.
Hmmmmm. I'm trying to remember if I made the comment on this page or the frontier v. Ranger board about "quality will help sales figures but sales figures don't reflect quality alone". This is what I'm saying. I don't dispute that quality is an important factor of buying an automobile but, it certainly isn't the only factor. Quality itself is a gray area, what is the definition of quality and where does reliablity come in. To me they kind of blend together. If the quality of a particular part breaks it may cause the products reliability to be in jepordy. Another point, the interior may be junk, cracked vinyl dash, broken window handle, faded upholestry, peeling paint and so on but the damn thing keeps starting and running without a hitch. This last exapmle, quality sucks but the reliablity is awesome. The numbers all depend on the research company that retrieves them and how thorough the surveys of the research was done. When I did my research of my Nissan C.C. a couple of months ago, I thought to myself how could they ask me these questions, I have only owned this truck one week! My answers aren't going mean squat, because I hadn't any experience with the service dept. or the product yet just the sales dept.(which were idiots).
I know that these numbers are all that we have available to us and we need something to use as a marker but, I'm just saying look at who did the research and what does it really compare? Is the comparision valid?
I know this is off(way) the subject but, when crime reports come out and they say that crime rates are down, how true is it? The two main reporting bodies are the UCR(uniform crime report) this is an accumilation of reports by police agencies collected by the FBI. Problem with this it doesn't display crimes not reported like rapes and so on. The second, is the NVCS(national victim crime suvey)put out by the department of justice. The problem here is that data gets skewed by some of the citizens that answer it by false reporting or misunderstanding the questions. So what I'm exemplifying is that data has a way of getting skewed whether it's automotive or whatever.
Kinda scary we agree on something. :-)
I agree, Ford was pushing the marketing hype limits calling the ST a 2001. It should really be a 2000 but hey it may help my resale. VBG
In my post I referred to the Norm and I said Apple to Apples. So to the first half of your statement I say, "There are exceptions to every rule but... IMHO the NORM is Quality=Sales". In one of your previous posts you countered with Sales<</A>>Quality and I agreed.
And the second half of your statement, I completely agree. With statistics you need to make sure the comparisons are Apples to Apples. Thats why I keep harping about base lines.
My father bought a fully loaded Dodge Caravan 1993 AWD which cost about $8000 more than my Pathfinder XE 4x4 which I bought with-in a month of his. 6 years later I had 120000+kms and I traded it in and lost $9500. His had 50000kms and was worth $20000 less!! The difference is the limited number of Pathfinders available and the reliability. People were knocking down my door for my Pathfinder.
The bumpers?Let us be specific.The bumper is metal,unless the assembly is completely made of composite,and even then there is a metal backer.The part you actually see that is plastic is the cover.In extreme heat and cold conditions it tears over time.
In your response to mahimahi you said:
In my post I referred to the Norm and I said Apple
to Apples. So to the first half of your statement
I say, "There are exceptions to every rule but...
IMHO the NORM is Quality=Sales". In one of your
previous posts you countered with Sales<</A>>Quality
and I agreed.
Let us do apples to apples.You said that your opinion that Quality=Sales.I can agree with that.If you believe that Quality=Sales,then you have to believe that Sales=Quality.If the inverse of the equation is not true then the original statement cannot be true.It is basic math.
vince,don't care about your Contour.Although your not having a warm fuzzy feeling about it is hilarious.Good quality etc,but you do not feel good about it.LOL LOL
You said:
The 4.0 SOHC makes 205ft/lbs
of torque at 1500rpms! Where does the 3.3 make
205ft/lbs of torque? TORQUE is what a vehicle
needs to tow....
As you so eloquently have stated over and over and over again that you have the specs and data.So,in interest of fairness I will take your torque spec as gospel.The 3.3L Nissan gets its max torque at 2800 rpm.I thought that was low end,apparently I was mistaken.The 4.0L close to max torque at 1500 rpm,that is low.That means the Nissan will still be pulling when the Ford quits.High idle with the air on is close to 1000 rpm,does not leave much does it? 500 rpms from high idle or 1000 rpms from normal idle.
has sketches of the 2001 CC. I read an article in the Toronto Star this weekend that claims the new truck will have the 3.3L engine with a factory Supercharger giving it 250Hp. There were actual pictures in the paper, not bad at all. Very aggressive looking compared to the current skin.
Siemens has developed and is going to supply Ford with plastic intake manifolds.
========================
No I never said that. I cannot say what Ford will or will not buy. I can say the the part is developed, but not who will buy it. For all I know, Siemens could have developed it for Nissan.
Gooba you also stated;
You said that in your opinion that Quality=Sales. **I can agree with that**. If you believe that Quality=Sales, then you have to believe that Sales=Quality. If the inverse of the equation is not true then the original statement cannot be true. It is basic math.
======================
Gooba, Since you agree that Quality=Sales and you also insist that the inverse is true than you must also completely agree with Vince. Therefor since Ford has more sales than Nissan, Fords quality must be superior to Nissan.
You comments seem to contradict themselves.
http://www85.toysrus.com/handler.cfm?sn=pg_zoom&gid=ID891&int_product_id=ID38702
The ST list also says Truck Trend has a CC vs ST article in the August 2000 Issue. Should be interesting reading.
big thing from Siemens Automotive is Composite
Intake AND Exhaust Manifolds (Not ford).
That was in direct response to my statement that Ford was coming out with a plastic intake manifold."The sorry...I have first hand info on this." is a pretty good indication.
You have a point about my quality=sales statement.I did not take into consideration that interpretation.You had argued that the inverse was not true.
I should have said that quality could lead to an increase in sales and that the quality of a product has minimal influence on the sales.
My comments do not contrdict themselves anymore than yours .
How can the bottom of doors get missed with paint at the factory for months ? One of a number of quality issues by many owners. CC owners, feel fortunate that for the most part we only have to put up with tightening oil pan bolts, and an occasional "clunk" in the A/C compressor clutch.
I doubt it was missed for months though. It was stupid for them to miss it in the first place. However they would not stop a production line for a cosmetic problem. They would wait for down time to reprogram the robots.
But if I have my choice of a quick paint job vs a chance of rapid loss of oil from loose oil pan bolts, I choose paint.
When it comes to cars, a classic example is the Chrysler K-car series. Quality<</A>>k-car at any time!! It was marketing, utility, price that sold that vehicle.
To sum up my arguement, sales might or might not = quality, and quality might or might not = sales. Bottom line. FordST is probably right in that usually if the quality is good, sales will follow, but because this isn't always the case, and it is by no means the biggest factor, you can't make those blanket statements.
As to anybody saying that Ford's quality is better than Nissan because they sell more vehicles in North America? That is BS and most people know it!
These statements are, of course, IMHO! I do think though
but because this isn't always the case, and it is
by no means the biggest factor, you can't make
those blanket statements.
===========================
Im not sure how you interpret the word "Norm" as a blanket statement. As I posted before Norm means "Most of the time". Which precludes the Blanket statement of "All of the Time".
Keanec you also said;
As to anybody saying that Ford's quality is better than Nissan because they sell more vehicles in
North America? That is BS and most people know it!
=====================
Hey, talk to Gooba! He's the one who made that statement. ;-)
statement. ;-)
No,I did not make that statement.YOU made that statement.At no time did I type those words.
As to your comment about the norm, I guess what I was also trying to say besides mathematically, was that I, personally, donèt agree in the car world (as well as the world as a whole) quality=sales. There are too many other factors which can affect sales. One large one is that the better quality a vehicle (usually) the more expensive to make, the more expensive to sell, the smaller the market the number of people who can afford to buy it.
In other words, you can almost argue the point that quality = less sales (although I am not arguing that - I am just making a point) because quality = higher price = smaller market!
Hey Vince - That would means the Frontier is 4 x better quality than the Ranger because it sells only 1/4 the amount!!!!
:-) can we say devilès advocateÉÉÉ
One of the reasons it went so fast was because of how light it was, my 15.5 foot (Sunbird, I know not great quality - but the price was right, ha ha) was 400lbs heavier dry, didnèt go as fast, but I did much better when I sold it 3 years later.
I never did like it as good as my first boat - a 13 foot Glastron runabout - now that was a well made boat; even though it was a 1960!
The back seat of the CC is usless. There is no more room than the king cab/supercab. All nissan did was add 2 doors. When I climb in my shoulders hiot the b and c pillars, my foot gets stuck between the b pillar and the from of the back seat, then because the seat is so upright my head hits the ceiling, while my head is hitting the ceiling my knees are at my chest because the driver and passenger can't give up any legroom.
The CC has the squared off lae 80's dash. I don't beleieve it has changed much since then.
My ST has none of these problems. I can sit in the back seat with the front seat in the full rear position. The back seat has a comfortable rack to it. The ST has it all over the CC in the power catagory. The ST's dash has not changed much since the 95 explorer, but that is still better than the 80's.
Why I purchased a ST.
1. Ford! I have 4 ford at my house
2. America Made
3. Unique and nicer than the more expensive 4 door explorer
To see a picture of my ST go to club.yahoo.com and look at the pictures in the sport trac club.
Gooba agrees in post 113 that Quality=Sales and insists the inverse is also true. Vince says Sales=Quality, therefore Gooba=Vince.
Its simple math.
As far a the manifolds are concerned, the use of plastics is on the increase for several reasons, reliability, ability to form and cost effectiveness. fordsporttrac did not say that Siemens and Ford were the same thing, he pointed out that a major parts supplier was making certain products from plastics. Every manufacturer outsources from independent suppliers. Often the same parts can show up in more than one manufacturer. In the near future you will see most engines using more plastic as it becomes practical. Ford is not the only one using plastic intake manifolds, the new Dodge 4.7L uses one and so do several others.
As far as Bayliner quality goes, there was a time that his was true, but most boaters will agree that the Bayliners of late have good quality. If you want to argue that point, go to the Trailer Boats web site and get in on the message board.
Are those 4 Fords in your driveway moving? or are they Windstars, Taurus's, Contours? Why do any other Car manufacturers exist if Ford is the end all - be all? If you have been reading the posts in this group you would realize that all though the ST has more room in the back - it isn't a lot! Also, if you want a truck for 5 or 6 adults, buy a full size! As to the dash, I like the CC's very much thank you.
American made???? Ha! Where do they make all the parts in Fords? Nissans?, other vehicles? Where is the Frontier made????
As to your name rjkunkle let's rearrange and take away the 'l' and add an extra 'j' - Jerk Junk or JERK with JUNK!
Sounds appropriate for somebody with your attitude.
For other Ford owners who read anyways, sorry, just don't like his/her attitude.
2. That could very well be true about Bayliner now, I have no idea, I haven't bought a boat in 10 years. Mahamahi opnion would probably be considered somewhat more learned as he has been selling boats for a long time.
Stick with your rice-burner!!!!
How about we get back to civil discussions again.
We're bashing? Did you even read the post before mine? How is it bashing when I talk about vehicles I have owned and rate them? I just don't get it,why the double standard? If someone came in here and said, I had a Nissan truck and it was the worst vehicle I had and now I own Fords would you call them Nissan bashers or praise their input?
In the 650+ posts on this Topic I have never praised "anyones" bashing comments.
If someone was to come on the Topic and said Nissan or Ford is great and they want to praise their choice thats great I would comment on that. But if you just jump up and down and yell Nissan or Ford is crap its not worth the effort to comment on. Ignore it.
Lets look at #151. The first half is a comment by an X Ford owner. They made a valid comment about their experience.
The second half is a un-educated bash. If that person had bothered to review the previous posts they would have found out that we all already agreed the CC is a better off road vehicle and that the ST is just for light off roading.
I'd like to get back to some good discussions again. I plan on trying to locate the August Truck Trend article that was mentioned in the ST topic. It is supposed to contain a CC vs ST article.
He deserved a wisecrack back. I already apologized to you and others that my comments were only for him. Unlike you, I am not above sniping back at somebody who directly, or indirectly takes a shot at my intelligence!
I feel it is very fair for somebody to give reasons why they like/dislike certain makes/models of cars. It is unfair for people to personally attack people because of their choices.
You or others might think I am nuts for buying a CC, but it is much better, like you said earlier, to keep that kinda thinking to yourselves. You do it, and there is no reasons why the Junkman can't.
Again you know my feelings about some Ford products - I don't think anybody is an idiot for buying any Ford product and I don't think any other Nissan guys here think that. We just happen to be satisfied with our Nissan experience and we don't need somebody questioning our intelligence.
Simple math and logic.
rjkunkle
I am happy that you got a ST,and you state your reasons well.I can understand that you prefer the Ford because you have had good service and reliability from Ford.I can even understand that you could have a problem with the room in the rear of the CC and not like the styling.I do disagree on a couple of points.The rear seat area on the CC is larger then the KC,and my family fits fine in the rear with no cramping.The Nissan is American made as well as the Ford.It is kinda funny that you mention that when it was announced that Ford just concluded a deal with China to open a plant there.
steve234
I follow your logic about the robin being a bird but not all birds are robins.That being the case you cannot use the = sign in the statement.You have to state it another way.When you use the = sign it has to be equal both ways.
forsporttrac,by his reply inferred that.If that was not his intent then he should not have stated his post the way he did.
The use of plastics as you said is on the rise,but the reliability in engine components is still to be seen.Hopefully it turns out ok,but only time will tell.