Any downside to buying a hybrid?

heyjewel · October 2005

"I would tend to think less highly of your Lincoln which is plagued with tons more issues. Talk about crap!!! GEEEEZ....."

Really? Can u find a post about a Lincoln bursting into flames? One with a $15,000 repair bill?

Look, it ain't crap - the posts are right there on the board. The topic is about downsides, right? So here are some. The world knows about the Prius dying issue. There seem to be a lot of folks complaining about gas mileage not being as advertised, many about sudden surging. There was one about an early steering rack failure and another about brakes failing causing $3600 damage.

There seems to be a cadre of Toyota supporters who think this company can do no wrong. That buying a hybrid will save not only your wallet, but the planet as well. I'm merely pointing out that Toyotas fail too. Sometimes in quite spectacular ways it would seem.

falconone · October 2005

Ahh...so you believe everything you read on the net. How can someone have a 15k repair bill for a car that hasn't even been out for 2 yrs? Please give us a link to the car that burst into flames. Are you just having buyer's remorse for spending too much money for a glorified pickup truck?

yesroh · October 2005

I believe he compared the Prius to the Chevy Malibu. The Malibu has 15.4 cubic feet of trunk space and the Prius has 16.1

heyjewel · October 2005

Sure, here are the links:

Message #2 and message #263 in the forum titled:

"Toyota Prius Owners: Problems & Solutions"

Enjoy

falconone · October 2005

Hey ..no fair... you didn't tell us where the explosive Prius post was!!!! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

yesroh · October 2005

I still don't think I'd buy a hybrid. The cost is just too high for the amount of gas you might save if you get the EPA mileage they are rated at. The Prius is probably the only hybrid I'd consider and only if I can get past the Toyota dealer gouging. I will not pay 25-26K for a car with an MSRP of less than 22K.
The only other hybrids I know of...the Civic Hybrid and the Accord Hybrid are regular cars made into hybrids. The problem is trunk space. They use a lot of it for the battery packs and I need room to fit a racing bicycle in the trunk. If they could find a better place to put their battery packs I might consider the Civic. The Accord is just too expensive although the left over trunk space is tight but acceptable. It saves a lot of gas over the regular Accord V6 and is the most powerful Honda car available. But it's 30K! The problem is, if I can afford to buy a car for 30K then paying for gas is probably not a problem either. I remember when the cars with the best fuel economy were also the cheapest. I sometimes think this hybrid thing is a marketing ploy to get people to pay a lot of money for a car that gets marginally better economy than your average economy car. As I mentioned before, Honda's Civic VX had a 92 horsepower engine that gave 48 hwy/55 city in an engine with a large displacement than the one currently used on the new Civic Hybrid. I think if Honda worked with that engine to boost power a little and improve economy (the VX is a 1991 design), they could get rid of the heavy battery pack and have a car with economy nearly as good or better than their hybrid and at a much lower cost.
Some of the fuel economy figures I'm seeing here are worse or not much better than what I used to get in my old 4-door Civic which had an engine that wasn't as efficient as the VX. And my old Civic was only $12000 in 1992.

heyjewel · October 2005

I'm glad you find yourself so humorous.

I pointed to 2 posts, 1 about a Prius with a repair bill of $15,000, the other a Prius which burst into flames and was totalled. If u want to stay in denial and laugh like a hyena, that's your business.

Reading further about the Prius, I see you've been waiting for yours since May or June. Ooooh what a feeling, eh?

yesroh · October 2005

I also think that, because mass-produced hybrids are still fairly new, most people would be more reluctant to buy a hybrid than a regular car.

yesroh · October 2005

Even Toyota makes a lemon now and then.
I had a friend who had a Civic with 4000 miles on it and one day every weld in the entire car failed at the same time. He found himself riding the front wheel like a unicycle at 45 miles an hour, holding the steering wheel and rolling down a hill into an intersection. Luck was on his side that day.

falconone · October 2005

I'm waiting for that nice big juicy tax credit. Are you still having regret for buying the Navi gas guzzler. Thank goodness it doesn't share the attributes of the Crown Vic. Ya know... BURSTING into flames from the rear. I'm still waiting for the post on the explosive Prius. You did not post it. Are you going to admit that the Prius is a mid size? You seem to know a lot about the Prius! I'm quite impressed. LOL!!!!! :P :P :P :P

falconone · October 2005

Did you read the post? Toyota picked up the bill!!! Oh what a feeling baby!!! I'd like to see Ford pick up the bill when the tranny in your behemoth goes at 76k. HAHAHAHAHAHA I am truly cracking up here!!!!!

michael_mattox · October 2005

Thanks for the numbers but it does not take into concideration that the Prius is a Hatchback with folding back seats and has a ton more cargo space then 16.1 Cu. ft. if needed.

michael_mattox · October 2005

There is a new bigger civic hybrid out....Take a look it might be just what you are looking for...

your bike will fit in the Prius.

michael_mattox · October 2005

The Message in post #2 was about a 01 Prius ...N0T the new one...

It was a $15,000 tab with the car out of warrenty and Toyota picked up the full bill.

The fire thing was from a Poster who to my knowledge only posted twice and it was the exact same message both times??....He did say he liked the car

There is little doubt it is fully covered under warrenty unless the fire was arson but we have no way of knowing....the car was sitting in a parking lot at the time it caught fire.

heyjewel · October 2005

"The Message in post #2 was about a 01 Prius ...N0T the new one...

It was a $15,000 tab with the car out of warrenty and Toyota picked up the full bill."

The fact that it was a 3 or 4 year old Prius makes it a moot point in your mind? Here's a car that, within 4 years of brand new, developed operational problems so severe that the repair bill was darn close to the retail price of the car when new. Toyota had no choice but to pick up the bill, you know that. PR and the Pusher Man, that's what it is. What will happen when tens or hundreds of thousands of 4 or 5 yr old Prius are out there and some develop $20000 repair bills? When does Toyota stop pickin up the tab? With your Prius?

"The fire thing was from a Poster who to my knowledge only posted twice and it was the exact same message both times??....He did say he liked the car "

So your point is ... ? His car burnt up. I would bet that he didn't replace a car that spontaneously combusted on him with another Prius. So little reason to come back and post more. You're obviously saying maybe he's a shill or something? Can't argue with that.

kdhspyder · October 2005

Terry makes good copy for the uninformed and does offer sound advice on trades.

But in certain areas even he will have to defer to a vehicle owner over just a seller/dealer. The owner lives with the vehicle everyday. Terry owns dealerships, OK he's a good businessman. But I'm certain that I know more than he does about the Prius specifically since I have the opportunity to study them constantly. As a manager/owner he's got a lot more things on his mind than the details of a Prius. ( BTW you didnt mention whether you had a Toyota store in your group of 7.)

The vehicle owners know them more intimately than I do since they live with them every day I will defer to them.

Terry knows things we dont because he as an owner has a wider perspective in his business however owners/top managers rarely get into these details. His original comment way, way back that Prius only got 'in the tall 30's around town and that cold northern weather and AC in the Deep south killed the mileages is vaguely true. These certainly have an effect but comments like this lead me to believe that his knowledge is picked up from these forums and articles. In his style the comments are too off the cuff.

And unless he lived in Japan in the late 90's I was in the Prius before he was.

Sorry Terry, this might not be your area of expertise.

kdhspyder

kdhspyder · October 2005

Easy solution..deal with someone who doesnt charge above MSRP. BTW in what area do you live?

falconone · October 2005

I would venture to guess that the navigator has had ten times as many issues as a Prius. In the long run the Prius will outlive the navigator as evidenced by the folks that have had so many issues with it.

yesroh · October 2005

No...forgot to mention, I'm a Civic nut. Actually the new Civics are slightly smaller inside. I think the new one has 10.6 cubic feet. I might be able to fit a bicycle in a trunk that small although I don't think I've ever tried. I'd have to see the test results on it. The Prius was a lot faster before the change and still has a lot more interior room, a larger trunk (16.1 ft trunk vs 10.6) and got a lot better mileage (55.5 mpg avg vs 50 on the newly redone Civic).
I don't see why I'd want to buy a Civic for almost the same price as a Prius when the Prius has so much more to offer. Consumer Reports also rated its ride as good or better than the other three mid size cars it was compared to.

yesroh · October 2005

I believe Edmunds rated the Prius as the most reliable mid-size car. Or maybe it was the Kelley site. It's performance isn't too shabby either.

yesroh · October 2005

Oh I know that.
I've been wanting to go back to a hatch for years but the companies still aren't making the hatchbacks in the nicer mid-sized cars and even in the smaller cars, you can't get a good hatch. They've become second-class cars. If they took my Honda Accord Coupe they could easily put a hatch on a car that size and probably have a better car. It would just look goofy.

yesroh · October 2005

Evansville, Indiana.
I checked some local prices for used Prius's and they were quite a bit higher than the MSRP on the used ones. I don't know if Toyota has changed much but the two times I tried to go talk to a Toyota dealer I left angry and felt like I'd been talking to a jerk. At about the same time I also read Consumer Reports, although ranking Toyotas as their recommended cars, listed dealer satisfaction bottom of the barrel compared to all other car dealers. They may have improved. I just helped my girlfriend buy a used Corolla and the dealers seemed okay.

falconone · October 2005

The right dealer is sometimes hard to find. Best advice is a referral. Glad to hear you were able to assist.

yesroh · October 2005

And she thanked me so much for that assist too.
It was worth it.

cob · October 2005

"Can u find a post about a Lincoln bursting into flames?"

Doesn't the Lincoln use the same cruise control switch as the F-150 and Expedition? I believe all since 1997 have been recalled due to fire hazards from that switch. So I guess Lincolns like F-150s have burst into flames or could at anytime.

larsb · October 2005

Anyone who worries, argues, and disputes about a car bursting into flames has WAY too much free time !!!

You guys are talking about something that is so statistically rare it's ridiculous !!

But while we are talking about the Ford fire problems:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/ford_fire_recall.html

"Ford Recalls 4 Million Trucks to Fix Fire Risk
September 7, 2005

After years of turning a deaf ear to reports of fires in unattended F-150s and other trucks and SUVs, Ford Motor Co. is finally recalling nearly 4 million of the vehicles to replace a faulty speed control deactivation switch that may cause underhood fires.

Flaming Fords
 Bronco
 Crown Victoria
 Dump truck
 Expedition
 Explorer
 F-150
 Other F-Series Trucks
 Focus
 Mustang
 Ranger Pickup
 Taurus
 Windstar

The estimated 3.8 million Ford vehicles affected by the recall are from the 1994-2002 model years and include the Ford F-150 pickup as well as the Ford Expedition, Lincoln Navigator and Ford Bronco SUVs."

heyjewel · October 2005

Between your 'belief' and falconone's 'venture to guess' you folks don't know jack about Lincolns.

falconone · October 2005

Thanks for that link. One of our VPs has one of those vehicles and may be unaware . As usual, the information gleaned from this site is very valuable. Thanks again for the useful post.

michael_mattox · October 2005

Jewel:

The 01 is a completely different technology...There was no recall or massive problem with the car...it was one situation where there was a problem and Toyota stepped up to the plate and picked up the full tab...The cost to the owner was 0

The 05 that caught fire while sitting in a parking lot while the guy was at work, who knows why it caught fire...The guy never reported back...(IT COULD HAVE BEEN ARSON in fact that is more likely then spontanious combustion on a car that was just sitting in a parking lot) He did say he really liked the car so chance are he would have replaced it with another Prius...Or if it was some wierd thing like faulty wiring that caused the fire Toyota would have given him a new one and know what a class opertation they are it was probably an upgraded one.

michael_mattox · October 2005

Just Curous....What year were you reading Consumer reports and got the bad satisfaction rating from them on Toyota.

Note: I have gotten Consumer Reports for Years and do not recall any Negative comments about Toyota Dealers relative to other dealers...

michael_mattox · October 2005

Jewel:

Does Lincoln have a hybrid on the road???...NO!...Hmmmm...That could be why we on the Hybrid board have little interest in them....

The Recall on the Lincoln Navagator seems an ample response to your Fire question...To my knowledge there has been no FIRE recall of the Prius...

falconone · October 2005

I think they may have one soon. I just don't remember the name. It's nice to see Ford taking the hybrid market seriously. I saw a commerical where they will have a car that runs on pure ethanol. I have no idea where you'd get 100% pure ethanol though.

I had no idea that Lincolns were having fires. That's pretty serious. And there are millions of them on the road. I hope all the owners have been informed.

Looking forward to getting my MidSize Prius in ten weeks!!

WOO HOO!!

heyjewel · October 2005

Your responses are civil, thanks. I didn't come over here to push Lincolns, that's for sure. I don't think I even mentioned them until your birdman looked at my profile. (He's since been over to a Lincoln forum posting a nice big TROLL post.) I originally followed another of your posters over here after he made a sort of a troll post in the Navigator forum.

In any case, I've certainly learned a lot about hybrids while here. As I said when I first came in, I actually considered and drove the Civic hybrid a couple months ago when I was in the market. I found it was just way too underpowered for me. Maybe I should have driven the Accord:>) The Prius is another story. Too many problems being reported, especially ones that could cause serious injury (dying on the road). I think it's a step in the right direction, but I'm not going to be a first adopter guinea pig for Toyota. Just MHO.

On the fire thing, pre-2003 Navs have been recalled along wth other Fords which used a certain type cruise control setup that apparently could get too hot and cause underhood fires. Haven't actually heard of it happening to a Navigator and haven't heard of any total burn ups due to it, but will give your folks a touche for reminding me of it.

Lastly, you all seem to have an almost surreal faith in Toyota that I find somewhat troubling. Toyota certainly has a reputation for building quality cars. But what is the company's long term goal? Is it good for the American consumer? the American worker? Do they play 'fair' in the global marketplace? Are they treated fairly or with kid-gloves by the "American" media? What will happen if they beat GM into the ground? What will happen if (when) a large number of hybrids have expensive failures? I alluded to drug pushers above and that's kinda what this is like to me - Toyota has a product that it wants badly to succeed - the hybrid technology. So early expensive failures are paid for by the company to keep customer good will and 'Hook' you on their product. But later, when you want more and more, well now you gotta PAY, just like an addict. I have my doubts about long term ownership of one of these cars. That's just MHO. Good luck to you all. Wave at me when I'm filling up my Nav and you're cruisin by:>) I'll wave back if I see you stalled on the road!

snakeweasel · October 2005

Really? Can u find a post about a Lincoln bursting into flames?

Not that its really relative to the discussion but my Lincoln caught fire early this summer. We had just parked it in the garage after having some work done on the engine. As we were walking away one of my friends started yelling "Its on fire". Seems the fuel line wasn't connected properly and some gas leaked onto the hot engine and started up. Not much damage to it thank god.

snakeweasel · October 2005

I still don't think I'd buy a hybrid. The cost is just too high for the amount of gas you might save if you get the EPA mileage they are rated at.

I agree that the initial additional cost of the hybrid is a negative towards buying one. The factors are what is the alternative to the hybrid and the price differences between the two, the price of gas, do you pay cash or take out a loan, if you take out a loan what is the interest rate and the term of the loan and how many miles you drive.

The more you drive and the less the "premium" is on the hybrid the faster you will recoup the money. In some cases it might be in a little over a year. But if you look at someone paying a $7,500 premium for a hybrid they might never break even on it.

In short for some its worth it for others its not. To be honest I think its not worth it for most people.

falconone · October 2005

Statistically the falcon (bird) may be coming to your rescue as you coast in the right lane with your car on fire. I'd still help even though you seem so determined to trash hybrids (namely Toyota). Your continued posting here intrigues me. Perhaps you really want a hybrid but are frightened of the committment. I know that my Prius won't be stalling as the software issue has been addressed. In the meantime.... I'll be flying by gas stations while your standing there pumping your guzzler. Can't wait to get mines!!!!! (sic)

snakeweasel · October 2005

Geeze what is with you and transmissions? first off I know few people who have had any real transmission problems in the last 20 years. And the ones I know of had over 150k on their cars. I personally have put more than 170k on two cars and have 130k on one now and never did I have a transmission issue. Heck one of those cars I sold to a friend who put another 100k on it before the transmission gave out at nearly 285k miles and then only when he threw it into park going 45 MPH. Man give it a rest will you.

michael_mattox · October 2005

SNAKE:

The Premium for a prius is no where near $7500.....A fully loaded Midsized Prius, with Nav. a quality sound system with 7 speakers and through the dash 6 disk changer ...power windows and mirrors...Smart Key, Stability Control, ABS, 6 airbags, HID headlights, and a lot more cost me $28,000...Now if you truly believe that there is a $7500 Permium for that car...

TELL ME OF ANOTHER CAR (NON-HYBRID) WITH ALL THAT EQUIPMENT THAT I CAN BUY FOR $20,500.

falconone · October 2005

Who mentioned transmissions? Maybe a week ago. I can post as much as I want to inform people that SOME of the information posted here is false. Are you saying that I am paying a $7.5k premium for my Prius? Can you list a vehicle that gets 50mpg and has ALL the content of the Prius? I didn't think so. Your continued posts here are indicative of your desire for a hybrid as well. Why else would you be here? Looking forward to getting my Prius!!

michael_mattox · October 2005

HeyJewel:

Real classy last sentance.

falconone · October 2005

Desperate measures for desperate folks! At least we've made some headway. We now know for sure that the Prius is a midsize and Pre2004 Lincolns are explosive.

snakeweasel · October 2005

The Premium for a prius is no where near $7500

I never said it was, I did say that if there was a $7,500 premium. Now if you look at the basic Ford Escape it runs $19,380.00 MSRP but the base hybrid is $26,900.00 MSRP that is a difference of $7.520.00 just to get the hybrid.

Now mind you I never mentioned Prius or any other model and I was rather generic in this approach. If you actually read what I said I actually stated that some can recoup their extra costs fast, but it depends on many factors including driving a lot.

Also please do not shout it is rather unbecoming.

larsb · October 2005

Just as the Honda Civic Hybrid is FAR MORE CAR than the Lowly Civic DX, the Escape Hybrid is far more vehicle than the lowest end Escape.

Creature comforts, air bags available, etc make up a lot of the difference in those costs.

PS
And personally, I use CAPS to emphasize words or phrases, and not as representative of shouting. Maybe others do also. That "shouting" thing is for posts which are entirely in all caps, while inserting caps in the middle of a sentence is just to help mimic conversation, where one would put more stress or emphasis on a word or phrase in an effort to make the point more effectively. We have all had grammar classes.....:D

snakeweasel · October 2005

Who mentioned transmissions?

You did, and according to the date stamp on the post it was yesterday, just 14 hours and 44 minutes before I replied to it.

I can post as much as I want to inform people that SOME of the information posted here is false.

As can I and there is much misinformation and half truths from the pro-hybrid side.

Are you saying that I am paying a $7.5k premium for my Prius?

Can you find where I am saying that?

Can you list a vehicle that gets 50mpg and has ALL the content of the Prius? I didn't think so.

No but I can list a few vehicles that have all reasonable content (and at times things the prius doesn't have) that gets less gas mileage. But since they cost far less the overall cost is less over say 50-100k or more miles.

Your continued posts here are indicative of your desire for a hybrid as well.

Either that or it is an indication of my desire to discuss the issue. Since I doubt you are a mind reader the casual reader will have to take my word that at this time I do not desire a hybrid. Now I have looked at them with the intent that one might replace my current ride. but after running the numbers (I do that for a living you know) I decided that as of this time its not the best choice.

Looking forward to getting my Prius!!

Yes enjoy your higher car payments.

snakeweasel · October 2005

Just as the Honda Civic Hybrid is FAR MORE CAR than the Lowly Civic DX, the Escape Hybrid is far more vehicle than the lowest end Escape.

Either way if you want the Escape hybrid you will be paying far more money than the non-hybrid.

That "shouting" thing is for posts which are entirely in all caps,

FYI Any sentence in full caps is considered shouting, especially when it is separated, outside from any other paragraph so please do not shout.

falconone · October 2005

Why would you think I would have car payments? I intend to pay cash!! And yes... I SHALL enjoy my Prius which DOES get twice the mileage of a Hyundai. Nothing against Hyundais... My dad just traded his Acura TL for a Hyundai Sonata because thieves keep stealing the HIDs from Acuras (luckily my dad never got hit). All the kids now make fun of my dad for driving a Hyundai. Hey... he likes it!

I also get a $400 car allowance as part of my compensation package. I'll be making out like a bandit!! Gotta love it!!!

larsb · October 2005

quote snake-"FYI Any sentence in full caps is considered shouting, especially when it is separated, outside from any other paragraph so please do not shout"-end quote

Well, if the person who types such an all caps sentence SAYS that it was not intended for shouting, then it cannot be interpreted as shouting.

For future reference- larsb uses caps for emphasis, not as a silly interpretation as shouting.

(PS If someone SHOUTS using their keyboard and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?)

pjyoung · October 2005

I know few people who have had any real transmission problems in the last 20 years. And the ones I know of had over 150k on their cars.

Allow me to introduce myself....I lost 3 (count 'em - 3) transmissions in my 1999 Chrysler before it reached 60,000 miles. That's part of the reason I bought a Toyota.

Kirstie_H · October 2005

OK, this is getting really boring and childish. Can we please move back to the topic at hand?

snakeweasel · October 2005

Why would you think I would have car payments?

Well since most people do take out loans for their auto purchase I presumed you would be, forgive me if I was in error.

Any downside to buying a hybrid?

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