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So are they going to do away with the shift knob in all models? Now .. how ridiculous is buying the new M3 - a real driver's car built to be driven - with the full awareness you cannot have a clutch. I have to keep driving an M3 ... but in the same time I have to drive a manual. If I make an effort I could buy a 911, but I know I may not even appreciate it nearly as much, I really want an BMW, not the 911. And the sportscar coming exclusively in automatic is for the grandpa who's trying to cheat the approaching Mother Time and the Night of Eternity and feel a couple of decades younger as far as I am concerned. I believe they do not really see how ridiculous this is. I am not commenting those who go for that option, but why can't BMW be sensitive to what people r e a l l y want ... and have the clutch as an option.
Just out of curiosity ... would anyone else feel the same -- and go as far as buy from somewhere else and get a real driver's car. I feel 'the bmw way' but in the same time I am a stick driver. And always will be. Those people just don't know how much they are upsetting people -- and don't quite care.
Where did you hear this?
And lastly 'designman', who posted at #8 said the same.
Time will tell ...
On a sidenote, I believe one of the reasons why MB went down was the rigid philosophy and poor adaptation to customers' preferences.
It seems like BMW also wants to explore the avenue that what matters in building cars is how they want them and less how customers want. If they do go that way, I'd say give them 7 years and they'll be where MB is right now ... It's obvious that I strongly hope to be proven wrong...
That is NOT cool.
I've been seriously considering buying an M3 at some point, but I've been waiting for a V8 version. That was one of the reasons why I chose the S4 over the current M3 when I bought my '06 S4 about 3 months ago. That V8 growls, especially when it's reving at over 5K rpm's. The I6 is whiny and I couldn't get over it while I was test driving the car. I test drove it twice just to make sure.
I bet everyone here is super excited about the possibility of a V8 M3, I know I am. This news that there will be no manual option has me more than a little worried though. Also, are there pictures? Is there any official or semi official news? Specs? I tend to take a "I'll believe it when I see it" attitude towards any proposed new car. I asked the BMW dealer about the V8 model in December while I was looking and he was very elusive and said it was so far off there was no reason why I should not buy the current model and trade it in later (figures).
BMW would be ill advised to not offer a manual option as they could lose customers in the process. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most of us here
preferdemand a manual tranny? People who take driving seriously seem to favor manuals and I think it's safe to say that most people driving S4's and M3's are serious drivers. The reason BMW may be doing this probably has everything to do with gas mileage which will also translate to a smaller gas guzzler tax. If there's no manual option though you can probably count me out. Meanwhile, Audi owns Lamborghini and is tapping their V10's as we speak and no manual M3 means that the 2008 RS6 may be my next new ride if it gets approved for production. The thought of a 550bhp V10 has me drooling. The M3 really needs a V8 though and the sooner the better. Even with a SMG I'll check one out for sure. People who own M3's with the SMG seem to be fine with it, so I'm definitely curious.I don’t hear too many Porsche track rats clamoring for sequential. 9 out of 10 Porsches are sold with MT. The Carrera GT has only MT as does the hot new Z06, and the 07 M5 is coming with manual because of pressure from American buyers. There seem to be lots of people who bought cars with sequentials and don’t like them. I think BMW is trying to foist SMG on the buyers in an effort to appear current. But this will all come out in the wash. The 07 M5 MT option is a great sign. We may yet see a new three-pedal M3.
In my opinion, it’s only a matter time when everyone realizes that the transcendental driving experience, the spiritual connection to the drivetrain that can only be provided by the stick and human clutch cannot be replaced, the insignificant edge in speed be damned. Porsche, their philosophy, and their loyal following are very important here. They carry the torch.
The new model is larger, heavier and offers no adequate additional power. It appears aimed a a broader, less demanding buyer who intends to use it as a daily drive With the kids!
The top BMW privateer race team in the US is already agonizing about how one goes about making this into a race car, or even looking like one. The 06 M3, as you likely know, is a faintly veiled, street legal race machine right off the dealer's floor. This coming model appears to be the first misstep BMW has ever made in the development of this modern classic. Breaks my heart.
At the same time, of course, there is rumor of a new M version Z Coupe (picture the Z3 M Coupe, which was the highest performance road BMW ever offered to the public, though its appearance, "the bread truck", bothered some). At 340 BHP and the C-pillar stiffness to the chassis, nothing could touch it. No word on the cost of this hypothetical as yet, though. Besides, if $65K seems too steep, go test a Porsche of comparable performance (at roughly $110K) and the M3 will just jump into your car park!
to admit..I can't drive stick shift?
I tried several times and found the whole
clutch concept retarded. I mean..we should
be past this primitive clutch thing by now.
I welcome the SMG with wide open thumbs!
clutch concept retarded. I mean..we should
be past this primitive clutch thing"
Says who ...
Since you do not drive manual - you cannot pronounce yourself on this, nor could other drivers be interested whether MT appears to your limited experience as "retarded" or not. It is a connection with the car (and an understanding of how it works) that comes strictly from the driving experience, a connection with the road which is alien to you. You have not experienced or enjoyed what we are talking about. So it will be of all too little a value how someone like you finds the concept.
If you buy an M3 but you are not able to drive manual you buy it so you look cool inside it, but deep down you are not a sportscar driver. Buy a sedan if you are only able to enjoy automatic. I hope you realize it is far beyond your competence to comment on manual transmission.
I know a lot of girls who roll in 'Vettes!
If I knew one who could drive stick......
But that's all pie in the sky. :P
I think BMW learned their lesson on the M5 (why do I feel like I'm repeating myself?). :confuse:
DrFill
only better than manual transmission, but it is so superior that NOT ONLY put it in the M5, but they eliminated your beloved stick altogether. That is a Power statement by BMW, not me. They know better than I, and certainly YOU given your ridiculous assumptions, how best to connect with the car and they've concluded that SMG is better. Having worked with German engineers in Munich, I know very well that such decisions are based upon FACTS.
All formula one sports cars today use some form of SMG..and these are sports cars..so your statements are ridiculous and baseless.
Joseph
San Diego
Also for your information,BMW has decided to bring a manual M5 starting soon due mostly from pressure coming from "enthusiasts" and the fact that most auto journalists bash SMG. So it seems that the 3 pedal fans have spoken..
Lesson learned: Don't be so bloody arrogant! Sell the people what they want! When you stop selling manuals, you lose 30% of your buyers.
DrFill
It was long said that the mantra echoing through the halls of the motorsport division was that the suspension must be faster than the engine. This fact barely applied to the E46 M3, which achieved it's numbers largely due to it's asymmetrical tire selection. Granted, the S52B32 is an awesome engine(if a little thirsty for oil), but without the advent of the aftermarket there wouldn't have been a lot of ways to bring the suspension up to the engine's performance.
With the advent of this V8 engine, did BMW ditch the mantra, or are they planning on running some type of active/progressive suspension to keep pace with the speeds this engine will be capable of producing?
The last M3 was a beast in and of itself with the straight six. Why make the move to a V8? I guess it was easier to develop than come up with a new straight six. Hang on, BMW just got done developing a magnesium block six cylinder engine for the new 3 series. Why not an design that engine to be suitable for M duty? It's already lightweight and they could've spaced the bore centers enough for it to be punched out to up to 3.8 liters. Combined with some valve tricks, we're talking over 100bhp/liter output.
My fear is that the compact luxury sport sedan market is going to end up loaded with +3700lb, V8 little monsters.
The fact that these cars were lightweight and light handling is what made them appeal to the sports car enthusiast in all of us.
Maybe I just gotta bite the bullet and learn how to drive stick to find out what many are bickering about.
As of now, I just don't see the logic of it.
Joseph
in San Diego
Granted, for racetrack use, a sequential transmission offers gear change speeds that most drivers can't match. However most drivers don't drive their cars on a racetrack, reducing the appeal of having the SMG on the street. That transmission is then relegated to use by those who either are manual drivers and want faster gear changes while relying on the throttle as the sole mechanism for getting power to the ground; or automatic drivers who want more control over their car and think that the SMG is the holy grail of powertrain/driveline control.
if we were talking about the m3 smg i would say manual without hesitation. why? the first two versions of smg seen on the e46 m3 were not true smg, but re worked versions of the 6 speed. this explans why the felt unrefined, jerky, and annoying. I would only ask for it on a car that would be going to the track.
the new m5 has SMG3, the latest version, a true sequential from the ground up, designed by the man who worked on the bmw wiliams f1 setup. how did they address the above listed problems with smg1&2? .....the M5 now uses twin clutches that are not only smooth as silk but make the car capable of unbelievable launches and seamless shifts, and when in shift program 6 they make it feel like the power never lets up to shift...just never-ending thrust. the transmission now can shift in 80 miliseconds!!
it is so advanced that if you're crusing down a road at 40 mph in second gear the sincros will always have 1st gear and 3rd gear spinning up to match rev's if-at any point-you would want to upshift or downshift. to make it even sweeter the car instantly blips to match the engine's speed with the gears so perfectly there is no lurching because it is off. part of the reason why it is perfect is beacuse the computer is releasing the clutch in the perfect manner for every situation-it is super human.
to all those maual fans, yes there is more control with a clutch being able to do exactly what you want in every shift. by how quick you drop the clutch, or where in the pedals range you apply the power you have infinite control over how the car shifts. yes you can change shift speeds in the smg but that does not match the endless shifting capabilities you have in your mind.
BUT, the new smg engages in a civil and almost telapathic way...knowing what you need at any given time, and exicuting these changes with incomprehesible speed. The M5, what a brute, but this sweet heart has good manners.
from a manual fan every day of the week, this car wouldn't be what it is with out the smg.
i end with this thought:
do you think the SMG puts 500 hp to the ground well????
the 2900lb corvette zo6 500 bhp...0-60 in 3.9 seconds
the 4040lb M5 500 bhp...0-60 in 4.1(4.1 road and track, 4.2 car and driver)
lamborgini gabrialgo 1/4 mile speed: 117mph
M5 1/4 mile speed: 118mph
yes it is on the track but BMW knows that some people prefer sticks, thats why in most BMW's the choice is up to you, both the m6 and m5 will have a stick.
is the clutch pedal going out the door?
no, in fact BMW won't be offering smg in the M Roadster. i assume that they will put a version of the the e90 m3's smg in it once the motorsports divison is done developing SMG 4 FOR The new 4.0 v-8.
why do you think that bmw put a stick in the x5 and x3 standard?? their prorities are pure.
people always forget that BMW's arn't luxury cars, they are sport cars with luxury built in some. they are drivers cars, that means the are always looking for ways to enhance the driving experince with new ideas, otherwise you wouldn't ever hear about SMG. But it is because of the fact that they are drivers cars that they are keeping 6-speeds around-they recognize that alot of people prefer that.
BUT just like it was said before, you can't talk about something you've never experinced....so if you havn't driven SMG 3 in the M5 than its hard to make a correct assesment.
the e46 engine is a beast even today after 5 years in production and 5 "international engine of the year" awards there are only 3 other normally aspirated engines that put out more hp per liter. handling was great in the e46 but not awesome like we expect .89 g's on the skid pad.
is M now focusing back on handling?? you bet!
the new m5 is almost 1000 lbs heavyer than the e46 m3, but almost pulls the same numbers .88 g's.
so you ask what will they do with the m'3?? the e90(2006 3series) is so much better on the track than the e46 sedans and coupes. how? a new patened 5 link aluminum fron suspension, and a new extremley low and flat 5 link rear suspension that doesn't allow any toe-in change in the rear, eliminating any trail-brake rotation. with performance tires car and driver recorded several runs mesuring .94 g's and even saw .95 g's out of a sport pkg 330i(for those of you who don't know how good that is-the porsche boxter s is .95 g's .....and the 3 series is a four door sedan!!!!!.
i'm confident that the m divison will be able to put the new 4.0 v8 in the m3 and keep the same results with some suspension tuning.
yes they do offer smg in other cars, the 325ci, 330ci, 325i, 330i, 530i, 550i, 650i, and the z4
it will not be a m4 as some suggest, but rather a 4 door m3 like the e36 body style 4 door m3. bmw has hinted that they might do a coupe version, but 4 you coupe lovers BMW has said that the will build a twin turbo 335i coupe with 300 hp and 300 lb ft torque. expect a 0-60 time of 5.0 sec. that car will hit show rooms this sept. along with a 328 coupe that performs better than the outgoing 330ci.
the new m3 engine is the same as the m5's but a V8 so it displaces 4 liters. BMW has been telling us that to expect 400-425 bhp and rumors hint at a 0-60 time in the mid to high 3 second range.
the new convertible will likley come in late winter 2007 and all evidence points to a hard top.
the new m3 will be out some time in the summer of 2007 as a 2008 model year with a base price around 52-56 grand.
the new 335 is to be a more affordable car than the previous m3 so we expect a base price around 43k. pricing will be out on the new coupes mid summer.
also the new 328 coupe will be all-wheel drive, expect awd on the 335 in a year.
Thanks, I realize that. But what I asked is if the new SMG 3 WITH IMPROVED TECH will be available on those cars too. From my understanding, they currently have the jerky and much-slower-shifting SMG, nothing like it is on the M5 & M6.
The M5 is out of my price-range. The M3 however is on my radar for my next lease/buy in 2.5 years after my current 06 330i lease is up. A few questions,
will the 08 M3 have the smooth SMG III (like the current 06 M5)? Is it possible to lease an M3 and also, is it necessary to be on a waiting list for the up and coming new M3?? I don't wanna be stuck with a rental or worse, forced to get a lesser car due to availability in 2.5 years. Also, I wonder what your (everyone's) thoughts would be on how the new M3 will fare against Audi's RS4.
Until then, I'll be enjoying my 06 330i.
I must mention that the handling on the 06 330i with sports package is a real joy. I love churning through some of these roads here in San Diego, especially this one leading to Pacific Beach from Lajolla Village Drive. I just gotta feel that road every day after work.
Joseph
in San Diego
Both companies field very accomplished racing programs. It's obvious that they can't trickle down all the technology of a mega-buck single seater into a compact sports sedan. However BMW seems to understand the factors that are required for production car-based road racing a bit better than Audi ever has. These factors include weight distribution, low weight engineering(not just replacing steel pieces with aluminum ones), powertrain/drivetrain engineering, polar moment of inertia, steering quickness, etc.
Not that Audi doesn't know about these things, but it doesn't reflect in their product nor has it since the Quattro coupe in the 80's.
That's also dependent on what type of track these cars have it out on. If it's a tight track, I'd say their numbers are going to be closer(with the BMW on top, of course) because of the Four Ringer's ability to put the power down more efficiently out of the tighter corners.
However if BMW decides to leave well enough alone, the Variable M differential will remain. Anyone with technical knowledge of the automotive market's offerings will tell you that this is one of the best differentials on the market today and it makes all the difference in the world when your trying to go around a corner. Hopefully the one in the new M3 will be the same unit(or updated) used in the E46, as that one was flawless and can handle insane amounts of torque.
As far as the Porsche 997 Turbo is concerned, I'm not sure if the M3 will be able to beat it around a big track. The shear speeds the Turbo is capable of producing would overtake the M on the straight(I should know, I just crashed my 993). It would definitely shut it out around a smaller track if this new one is anything like the 996 series(the AWD system didn't act fast enough in the tighter, faster transitions).
If BMW decides to do a CSL version of the E90 M3, I'll have my money on the M. With the tighter suspension geometry, a warm set of Michelin Primacy Sports(used on the E46 CSL) and the Variable M differential, BMW can definitely send the 997 S packing and the 997 Turbo sweating.
Everyone racing fan here should remember how much noise Porsche made the last time BMW put a V8 in an M3(please refer to below, hehe).
:mad:
yes the new m3 will have a twin clutch smg, its in the works right now and although bmw is tight on releasing info with all their upcomming cars, rumor has it that it will be a 7 speed.
just my thought, the V8 will bring the m3 up to play with the porsches, but a 7 speed smg will make it king on the short circuit. also the fact that bmw is now putting the compound floating rotors off the m3 csl on all m cars makes me think that the m3 will out brake the porsche.
with concern to weight, the e39 m5's v8 is actually heavyer than the v10. that takes engineering! so i'm confident m can pull of a v8 4 door m3 and make it under 3600 pounds.
"It would definitely shut it out around a smaller track if this new one is anything like the 996 series(the AWD system didn't act fast enough in the tighter, faster transitions)"
I'm a Porsche enthusiast through and through. However I've also been behind the wheel of my own BMW against numerous rwd Porsches in the GT2 category of the SCCA. I don't even consider replying to a statement if I think it doesn't hold water.
The 996 Turbo is an awesome street car, whose limits are hard to experience. That being said, on the track the Turbo isn't as good a tool as it's rear-drive stable mates because the all wheel drive system is set up to kill understeer. This makes the car harder to set a rhythm with, leaning towards a "slow in, fast out" cornering style.
The new M3, with it's redesigned suspension, , M differential, sticky tires, high compression V8, etc. will undoubtedly be able to walk the Turbo on a short track if it acts like the last generation Turbo in tight, quick transitions.
Remember that horsepower doesn't win races as much as being able to maintain momentum and achieving rhythm. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but the M3 is no stranger to the track. The Turbo? Not so much a track car as it is one of the best street cars money can buy.
i can't argue with that since i'm a bimmeraholic.
ultimatedriver, have you had a chance to drive a sitck and smg in a m3. have you had the chance to compare that with the new m5's smg????
I'm not going to review all the positives in this post, as they've been lauded upon many times in this forum. I appreciate the SMG at this level of horsepower and speed; helping novices contain supercar levels of horsepower and torque, taking the semi-professional to professionals and allowing them to truly challenge the chassis, and then turning the dial back down to 1 for the long drive home.
In my personal opinion, the E46 M3 never needed SMGII. Maybe the Competition Package and definitely the CSL(awesome!). I leased a 2004 for a few months and automatically ordered up a short shift kit for the 6 speed. This change alone put the car two notches below nirvana (an accomplished clutch artist can shift in about 90-150 milliseconds with this kit).
All M drivers should know what the program is before they even think about taking a test drive. Manual transmissions belong on M cars. I'll never stop believing that.
Yet the third generation SMG is cheaper to manufacture in-house than it is for BMW to contract out to Getrag. It's also lighter, less complex and less of a bear on the other driveline components (anyone want to replace the clutch on the new 6 speed M5?).
However when the M3 is packing a V8 and 400+ horses, the evolution of SMG will become a necessary evil to us purists. Unfortunately, BMW customers shopping in the Motorsport division no longer want the task of knowing how to operate a manual transmission, but they still have money to spend. And since more money is better than less money, BMW will continue to make a positive business case for the SMG.
So far here's the Summary:
2007/8 M3 with SMG III
Pros:
- silky smooth, telepathic, and super-human fast shifts
- promotes an average driver's capability to take the car closer to it's limits
- reduces chance of damaging transmission
- can revert to automatic mode while in traffic
Cons:
- Less control of engine power transfer with no clutch
- Less fun than Manual??
2008 M3 with Manual
Pros:
- Infinite flexibility of engine power transfer due to clutch and direct control of gears
- More Fun than SMG??
Cons:
- Alot of physical activity.. seems tiring to me
- Must practice to get good at shifting fast but will never be as fast as SMG
- Easier to burn transmission with 400+hp V8, than with SMG
I may have missed and distorted some points here.
To me, the Fun factor advantage of the Manual, if it is true, has alot of weight in the consideration. The utility of SMG, by simplifying the driving activity while providing supreme performance, is attractive as well. How to choose?? I have no clue.
Joseph
in San Diego
bottom line, you are not a "purist". i think that because of that you will have fun with either set up. the safe choice is smg, because you will never get tired of it like you would with the stick.
for ultimatedriver he could never go without the stick, but he finds the control and shifting fun. he's not wrong, you're not right....its two different people with different perspectives.
why do yout think there are some 250 plus cars for sale in north america......people have different needs and tastes.
I test drove an M3 with the lastest SMG offered in that model and while it was impressive, it did not shift very smoothly at all when driving around town.
Just my 2 cents. I hope this is helpful.
BTW: I got an email from Audi saying the US RS4 is over 3,900 pounds. I doubt BMW will be that silly and make the next M3 such a pig.
As far as that RS4 is concerned Jim2727, I don't think any of us at the BMW camp need worry. I haven't seen any weight figures of the new M3 but I doubt it'll register higher than 3600 on the scales, giving the weight to horsepower advantage to the M3. Besides, the M6 is about 3700 and change, so there's no way the M3 is gonna be that heavy.
Let's cross our fingers for some scaled down M6 engineering weight saving tricks like a CFP roof and bumpers, along with fiberglass-reinforced plastic side panels and rear decklid. Along with the inevitable aluminum suspension pieces and lighter engine, I feel we have very little to worry about as far as the weight of the M3 is concerned.
What does concern me is the direction the M3 program is headed in general. As I stated previously, I fear that we are losing the lithe, agile sports car hidden away in every M3. We're getting further and further into supercar territory with this horsepower war.
I am also a bit dismayed over the loss of the straight 6, though I do look forward to the V8. I've been an automotive technician for most of my life, both free lance and professional, and have come to adore the way that engine makes it's power in it's multiple guises. I'll admit I didn't like the iron block at first, but I grew to appreciate it's strength.
Call me selfish, but I was sort of hoping for a final evolution of the inline six cylinder engine. This last one was a 3.2 liter, 343 horsepower powerhouse that had very similar figures to the 3.2 liter powerplant in one of the "special" versions of the mid-seventies 3.0 CSL. One of the final evolutions of that engine displaced 3.5 liters. It made approximately 430 horsepower and made the car fly like a "bat" out of hell on the racing circuit. A modern successor to that engine would've been a nice curtain call for the straight six.
Call me sentimental, but cars like these are the essence of BMW Motorsport.
There's something to be said about light weight and an awesome top end kick. While the new M5 may not be able to take a lot of competition off of the line in the hands of the average driver, trying to keep pace with it on the highway is a different story all together. The same can be said of the E46 M3. It isn't as impressive off the line as it is a terror above 40mph. No unnecessary wheel spin or break of traction, just precisely metered acceleration all the way up to 175mph (trashed the gov'nah). All that fury was hard to keep up with for V8 sports cars/GTs. But now with most of the class achieving 60mph in the low to mid 4s, I guess the V8 is a necessary evil as well.
About "blowing away the older one." As much as I love every evolution of the 3 series, my all time favorite is the E36. Even though the E90 is idiot proof in it's handling character, the E36 begged to be tossed around in a manner the heavier succeeding models couldn't understand. When you were done playing, it would take off the sneakers and put on the loafers and quietly take you home, whether it was an M3 or not.
I do have a question about the V8, though. Acbr, you may be able to find an answer for me. Are the bore and stroke of the new V8 going to be identical to the ones on the M V10? BMW can really do whatever they want to make the V8 4.0 liters, not necessarily leaving the architecture alone.
The reason I ask is because I remember the S52B32(read 3.2L inline six from E46 M3) having an unusually long stroke, not consistent with engines that operated at the speeds that engine worked at. If BMW tightens the bore a bit, and makes the stroke longer to make the claimed displacement figure, AND keeps the redline as lofty as the M5's, then we M3 fans will have something new to rejoice about other than driving the best sports sedan in the world. A compact V8 that has awesome low-end torque characteristics.