Ultimate AWD Sports Sedans

dhanley · April 2005

"I don't know why you think the buttons waste space, though- it's a smart layout."

I didn't say the buttons waste space, i said having them in a narrow row is a waste of space. There's a lot of center console that is just that brushed aluminum look material with nothing on it. There could be buttons there for commonly accessed functions. For example, if i want to change some setting, i have to push the right "primary button" then pick the right little chicklet button off the center console. If there were more and bigger buttons spread out, it's be easier to perform these sort of operations by touch, or with a quick glance.

Of course, i've just had a few short drives, maybe if i owned one i'd get more proficient at the operations. But i still think that having a large center console mostly devoid of buttons is a waste of space.

dhanley · April 2005

"the Europeans actually consider the S80 T6/Executive versions as smart alternative to costlier versions of the Audi A8 and BMW 7 series"

I frankly don't think those are competitive cars. I've driven the 7 and s80t6 and the s80 is a pig compared to the 7. The handling isn't even close, and the s80's ride and interior don't measure up either. However, the s80 is quite a bit less costly than the 7. I think the s80 competes more with the 5-series. If you go to the volvo website, they compare the s80 to the acura RL and the audi a6, not the a8 and 7.

"The S60R despite being much cheaper than the S4 will still run with it in terms of performance. "

The fact that you repeat this in every post doesn't necessarily make it so. Yes, it gets to 60 about as fast. There is a lot more to "running with it" then 0-60 time. Otherwise, the subaru forester XT makes the s60R overpriced and redundant, then, doesn't it?

"Hell BMW had drums up until the early 90's on lesser variants of the 3 series."

Really? I can't find drum parts listed for a 1990 318i. There are ABS parts listed, though, something not listed for a 1990 240.

swedishiron1 · May 2005

"Really? I can't find drum parts listed for a 1990 318i. There are ABS parts listed, though, something not listed for a 1990 240. "

Lesser European 3 series had drums on them into the 1990's. I was utterly shocked when I realized the 1985 Audi 5000 I purchased had drums on the rear - bad assumption on my part - I just assumed since my 1978 240 wagon had 4 wheel disc a later model "Performance" sedan like an Audi would.

So all the European journalist are wrong win they compare the S80T6/ Executive editions against car such as the A8 and recommend it as a less costly alternative to the BMW 7 series ? I think that says a lot for a car that at least in the states sells for $20,000 or more, less than the cars its being compared to.

When the S80 came out I believe it had more interior room than the BMW 5 series that was available and it offered in the Executive versions, rear seat refrigerator, LCD screens in the rear head rest etc - features available as options on cars such as the BMW 7 series, Audi A8 available. Armoring was also available.

Have any of you Audiphiles posted any numbers...slalom etc showing the S4 will actually out perform the S60R ? All you talk about is the interior is better (questionable).

esf · May 2005

I don't think many people brag about Audi... they brag about Mercedes and BMW. By the way, you're implying that I don't like Volvos- I do. They're perfectly good cars. I'm just saying, they're really not luxurious enough (yet) to really pose a threat to big luxury companies like: Acura, Audi, BMW, Jaguar, Infiniti, Lexus, Mercedes-Benz, and (oh my god!) Volkswagen. Saab may be a little bit nicer than Volvos too, if not as nice overall.

I just don't think 'special' when I see a Volvo. I think 'special' when I look at my brand-new S4 Cabriolet, but not a Volvo, not even the S60R. I don't know why- I still admire the S60R. It's a cool car, and better for the money than an S4, C55, or M3.

By the way, if Audi doesn't have anything special over Volvo, I don't think Volvo has anything special over Audi, either.

esf · May 2005

I don't understand why you think Volvo can even match up to any European company... that may be harsh, but it's so true. In June 2004, Car&Driver compared:

Audi A6 3.0 quattro
BMW 530i Automatic
Cadillac CTS 3.2
Chrysler 300 V6 (2005)
Jaguar S-Type 3.0
Lexus GS 300
Mercedes-Benz E-320
Volvo S80 T5

Eventually, the S80 came in last... the 530 was next, then the A6, and so on... It's just that Volvo doesn't have the refinement, the innovation, the luxury, the power, to compete with European companies. It actually may have the power, but not really the performance cars, and there's a difference. It's obvious that you'd like Volvo- look at your name. And, they have the features (TV, refridgerator), but that's not necessarily luxury. It's just features. It's like throwing a plasma TV into a Kia Rio and calling it luxury at its best. Why not Saab, though? They may not be plush, but they're more stylish than Volvos. To me, at least.

But Sweden doesn't have what it takes, and it will never, ever, catch up with Japan and Korea's growing car economies.

ateixeira · May 2005

They're doing better than you imply, the S40/V50 have been eating Saab 9-2x's lunch in the showrooms. And the XC90 has the best resale of any luxury SUV, beating BMW and Mercedes.

I think you are underestimating Volvo. They're known for safety first, not necessarily luxury, but they're holding their own.

Also, the models you are picking on are older and due for replacement.

-juice

dhanley · May 2005

"So all the European journalist are wrong win they compare the S80T6/ Executive editions against car such as the A8 and recommend it as a less costly alternative to the BMW 7 series ?"

Really? Every european journalist is doing this? I admit that i don't read every single euro car mag, but i don't see a whole lot of comparisons between the s80 and 745, etc. In fact, the last few mid-level sedans left the s80 out as "old and not competitive."

As for you claim that "lesser european threes" had drums on them until the nineties--even if this claim of your is true, eh, so what? Are we supposed to debate "the ultimate AWD sedan" based on the fact that you claim that some of the others had drum brakes on them in '85? That's an awfully weak argument, IMO.

swedishiron1 · May 2005

My point is that many German car fans brag about how superior their cars handle, how well they brake, etc etc - swear these cars are the best at this and that yet they are going to salvage yards to pull rear Disc brakes assemblies off the back of 20 year old Volvo 240(s) to put on their similar vintage or newer BMW - i think that says a lot.

You are often way overcharged for the performance you get with German makes. You may get drums brakes(recent history), the quality isn't that great etc etc. I know if i go buy a used Volvo 2 series, 7 series,8 series, 9 series, etc it will always have 4 wheel discs - the engines are robust, the transmissions are robust
.

Yet these little Bimmer/Audi heads surrounding me at work who probably haven't turned as many wrenches as I (and some have never even owned a BMW or Audi) will swear how superior these German marks are and have been for decades. I guess hollywood did a good job of building that image in their heads. Just because something is more expensive and may allow you to oversteer more easily doesn't make it better.

I had a 1990 Volvo 740 Turbo - co-worker had a 1995 or newer 3 series and bragged how his car could take me - I offered to pay for track time and meet him - he always declined. Was he afraid his tranny was going to drop out if he pushed it hard ?

Yeah there are lot leased BMW's, Audi's and VW in the parking lot wear I work. ($400 a month to lease a Jetta ? with $2K down a few years ago- it's all about fashion not quality)

By the way isn't the Volvo S80 the oldest model on the market out of the sedans being compared and is FWD ? Big deal it came in last in the comparison. Compare it and Drive it for yourself. Last time I looked BMW's weren't doing to hot in comparions against some of the Japanese and American competitors either.

I've worked for a mechanic (he has a 240 with 800,000 + miles) while i was in college and drove everything from gray market BMW 7 series, Porsche 928's and American muscle - sorry the German marks never impressed me over Volvo - especially when you factored price.

Spec out a Volvo S60R against less expensive Japanese competition the price difference isn't that huge when you consider what comes standard on the R.

I like older SAAB 9000 Aeros but as with Audi 5000 - if you got an automatic you could count on replacing it. I spoke to a SAAB mechanic and he said he couldn't afford to own a SAAB and drove a Volvo 740 Turbo. - that helped make my decision to stay away from SAAB. SAAB did more readily have more advancements in terms of performance than Volvo in the late 80's and very early 90's but at what price ? Reliability, long-term affordibility ?

As far as Ultimate AWD sedans I'm still waiting on you pro-Audi people to put up some numbers (maybe i missed them ?). Slalom. acceleration etc etc.

ateixeira · May 2005

Lately, at least, Saab's reliability numbers have been better than Volvos (per CR).

I realize that wasn't the case a decade ago, but it is now.

-juice

dhanley · May 2005

"many German car fans brag about how superior their cars handle, how well they brake, etc etc - swear these cars are the best at this and that yet they are going to salvage yards to pull rear Disc brakes assemblies off the back of 20 year old Volvo 240"

Really? They are? And, again, how does this relate to ultimate AWD sport sedan, even if true?

I mean, for example, TODAY you can't get a BMW without dynamic stability control. On the s40, volvo's best handling car, it's an option, and a lot of cars on the lot don't have it. Should we then conclude volvo's not a serous player in safety? This is a more reasonable argument than yours, i think: at least it's current.

I mean, ok, volvo built great long lasting cars 20 years ago. But, eh, so what? Are the engineers and design goals the same? Those were RWD for starters.

It's great that you're a brand fan, but this "us vs them" mentality doesn't win converts, you know. I'll certainly look at the s60R before i buy a car again, but i think it's got pluses and minuses and is not top echelon, nor would i expect it to be for 34K. Here are some assessments that seem reasonable to me:

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=6848&page_number=3

esf · May 2005

I know that- that's why they can't compete with the Germans. Besides, Mercedes puts luxury and safety first.

magoon · May 2005

"Not necessarily, AWD shows its benefits even on that dry track. That's why the EVO and STi come from the factory with summer tires only. "

So does the S60R....and even the A4 2.0T with sport package.

djinojai · May 2005

do any of the sports sedan makers offer rear windows which open completely?

ateixeira · May 2005

Never seen anything like that before.

Certain EVO models have a rear wiper. That's common in Japan.

-juice

ukgp · May 2005

I have to say here in the UK Volvos are not really up there with Audi, MB or BMW. ( & I have a C70 convert.) Especially the S40 which is based on the Ford Focus. Only certain Jags have any cachet the XJ, and S type. The xtype is based on the Ford Mondeo and smaller, more expensive. Nobody would think that VW are a luxury car maker. Honda have a better reputation than VW. I don't think that VW have helped themselves by using one car platform for so many different cars e.g. the Golf is used for the Skoda Octavia, Seat Leon & Altea, Audi A3, TT & A4. Now that Honda have started to make a decent Diesel engine their sales will rise even more. With regards to reliability the most unreliable car in the UK according to the Uk version of CR was the Audi TT.
Doc D

ateixeira · May 2005

Yeah, Audi TT is based on the old VW Golf (8+ years?).

Sharing platforms isn't the same as selling a clone. I think Volvo has distinguished their car well, not to mention it was a good platform to begin with.

-juice

mdid · May 2005

This is absolutely hilarious. Four guys driving $200K worth of auto playing golf at Van Cortlandt park!

For the record, I don't know what "ultimate AWD" means, but I just took delivery of an S40 T5 AWD M and am very happy with it.

I didn't even bother looking at the Audi due to (i) price -- my S40 is fully loaded at $29,500 while a comparable Audi (3.0) would easily run into the mid-30, which was outside of my range, and (ii) looks. I actually like the look of the Audi a lot, but I must see 50 a day. Same with the three series. There are so many on the road that they are becoming more like a honda accord in terms of whether or not you take any notice of them.

The S40 has all the performance I need (but maybe not all I desire). ;-)

esf · May 2005

You can't even get a 3.0 any more unless you buy it used. The new A4 is already out, the 3.2, and it has the same price if not like $100 more than the old one. BTW, the 2.0t is in the T5's class, not the V6. The 3.2 A4 is much faster than an S40.

I like the S40, though. It's very small, smaller than the old one, but nice. BTW, I think that you'd notice the new 3 Series and new A4 now.

I have a brand-new '05 S4 Cabriolet, in sprint blue, and I'm completely obsessed. So is my wife, sons, and daughter. And anyone else who ever looks at it.

swedishiron1 · May 2005

Not even the RS Audi models can run with the Volvo S60R through a slalom course. The Nissan 350Z 35th Anniversary edition can barely, barely nudge past the S60R.

S4 - No way.

BMW 330i ? No.

645Ci ? No.

A8 ? No.

That just goes to show how tightly integrated AWD system is with Volvo's Stability/Traction Control systems, Yaw Sensors and Electronically Controlled shocks - it can be wrapped up as single system, 4C, Continously Controllable Chassis Concept.

Previous (base) Corvette Model couldn't either - I think the new (base) one finally can.

The much smaller Subaru WRX Sti can outrun it on a slalom course and so can again, the much smaller, Mitsubishi EVO VIII MR.

So I think at this point the Audi S4 is out of the running for this title way behind The Volvo S60R.

My statements are based on Road & Track.

swedishiron1 · May 2005

"The new A4 is already out, the 3.2, and it has the same price if not like $100 more than the old one. BTW, the 2.0t is in the T5's class, not the V6. The 3.2 A4 is much faster than an S40. "

But for the PRICE of a nicely equipped 3.2 A4 Quattro you can get a Volvo S60R that has features you can't even get on the 3.2 A4 Quattro.

Where are your numbers to show the 3.2 A4 is MUCH faster than the S40 T5 ?

The S40 T5 is faster then the Audi A6 3.2., so is the "ANCIENT" Volvo S80 T6 yet both Volvos will eat the A6 3.2 Quattro for lunch in the quarter mile and slalom despite in the T6 case putting all its power through its front wheels.

Audi most be short-changing you somewhere at the performance table if in old FWD car (S80 T6) can best its premium Quattro models.

mdid · June 2005

"The new A4 is already out, the 3.2, and it has the same price if not like $100 more than the old one. BTW, the 2.0t is in the T5's class, not the V6. The 3.2 A4 is much faster than an S40. "

Audi is claiming 6.5 seconds 0-60 for the new A4 3.2. This is comparable to the S40 T5 AWD, except that the Audi outweighs my S40 by a full 500 pounds. Seems to me they are in the same class and it wouldn't surprise me if the S40 outhandled the Audi in the curves. Have any of the mags road tested the new Audi?

ateixeira · June 2005

They are hurting, April and year-to-date sales have thus far been a disaster. I don't think people are taking to the new face.

Gimme a left over previous generation S4 over the new one.

-juice

nwalbert · June 2005

Hey,

I just happened to stumble into this forum looking for info/opinions on when the 32xi might be available, and I ran across this thread and had to comment.

No offense, but you don't seem very realistic. You seem awfully bent on proving that Volvo's are something they are not.

To be the ultimte sports car, requires a lot of differant things. Performance, Style, Desirability, etc.

No one ever grew up saying "I want to own a Volvo when I grow up". They are just not in the same class as BMW and Audi. Are the others overpriced for what you get, damn right. Same as the best restaurants in the world, and designer clothes.

Volvo's are fine cars, but they compete in the bracket with Subaru's, and Honda's, not in the upper echilon. Not to mention they are not very nice to look at.

In fact I would put Subaru in this bracket WAY ahead of Volvo. The WRX Sti is a mean machine, and the Legacy GT Limited is a pretty nice car too. If they bring the Spec-B to North America, I think it would have to be close to the top of the list.

Anyway, didnt mean to ramble, but be realistsic, a Volvo doesnt leave you grinning from ear to ear after driving it, a 330i will!!!

Your comparing Louis Vuitton to Ralph Lauren. Nothing wrong with Ralph Lauren, but its pretty average without much desirabilty.

Later

tiger10 · June 2005

i dont see much talking about subarus

ateixeira · June 2005

That's because the STi was nominated and noone dared to challenge it. :P

Basically it qualified with little/no contention, while the Audi and Volvo folks battled it out over each other's offerings.

-juice

dhanley · June 2005

I think the skyline and lancer evo fans might challenge the STI.

krzyss · July 2005

Bentley as most ultimate AWD sedan.

Krzys

lovesthevolvos · July 2005

they are all great cars, but you could argue until the new models come about the pros/cons. talk about nuts and bolts already.

nodecaf · August 2005

While only few people may have grown up wanting to own a Volvo (I was far more into Porsche and Austin in my younger days), things do change. Mercedes brand lost a lot of luster in the past few years, as has Cadillac. It's all relative after all, and you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how uninformed it may be

If driving S60R doesn't leave you grinning from ear to ear, then you definitely need to have your adrenaline and dopamine production checked.

esf · September 2005

Of COURSE an A8 can't run with an S60R! But an S4 is very much quicker than an S60R. That was a very brave quote, saying that not even RS models can compete with that. I mean, the RS4 has a 'modest' 420hp 4.2 litre FSI V8, carbon fiber and alluminum body panels, a very cool bodykit, and amazing ten-spoke tinted wheels. And it's only $30K more than an S60R! LOL!

esf · September 2005

Everyone is right. You are definitely trying to prove something of Volvo that it's not. Volvo was not meant for performance; Volvo is a family sedan with a bit of fun thrown in. Audi is a luxury sports saloon meant for the big boys, BMW is a true athlete for someone who knows how to drive, Mercedes is the fat cat executive's ultimate luxury sedan. Volvo, although nice, is not any of this. I love Volvo as a rental car (not to be rude- they're very easy to have on a vacation), but I would be completely emotionally deprived if I stepped out of my S4 into an S60R or S40 T5. And of course an S40 T5 can out-drag an A6 3.2, the A6 3.2 is practically twice as big. But the A6 is FASTER, there's a difference there.

That's completely off-topic. The S40 T5 does 0-60 in about 7.2 secs, the A4 3.2 does it in 6.3.

And the A4 2.0T is not comparable to the S40 T5, the S40 is slightly more powerful and is smaller. Also, the 3.2 is the flagship A4 as the T5 is to the S40.

jowila · September 2005

I have 04 ML 350 and I am getting rid of it(hunka-junk) should I buy an S60 R To replace it? Also, Had a Lincoln Avaitor(2WD) and it was totalled this past weekend. I am thinking I am going to go completely Volvo. XC90- V8 and an S60 R, any incites?

ateixeira · September 2005

I would research reliability and quality ratings for the new cars you buy. Volvo ain't bad, but they're certainly not near the top either. That's if reliability is a priority for you (since you're coming out of a hunka-junk).

A lot of the Subaru Crew guys came out of Volvos for that very reason. Check out a 2006 Legacy GT Limited w/NAV, they're a good value. CR named Subaru the most reliable brand for MY2004.

I really like the XC90, maybe get one of each to hedge your bets. If you get 2 Volvos and you don't like the dealer, you're sorta stuck.

-juice

david38 · September 2005

I am going to buy a new S4 this week. Can't decide between the avant and sedan. Don't need a wagon (already have an SUV) but think the avant might look better and hold its resale. I am currently driving a BMW 540i sedan so going the extra door is a big step!

ateixeira · September 2005

It looks just as good, and is more practical. Sure you have an SUV, but if there are two drivers that means one of you will always have less practical space in a sedan.

-juice

wale_bate1 · September 2005

I replied to you over in the S4 thread in coupes, David. [edit: I just realized they're linked! D'oh!]

Avant. It's the way I'm going if I decide on the S4. No two ways it looks better, has more utility, and is a better balanced package than its sedan counterpart. Most wagons are closer to the vaunted 50/50, thanks to the extra structural pounds in the butt. You'll give up a hair of 0-60 (hardly noticeable with a 4.2), but gain in the handling department.

Honestly, there are good reasons why estates outsell saloons (I believe) so well in Europe...
;-]

ateixeira · September 2005

I got to take a road trip from DC to Philly and back in an S4 Cabrio, that V8 really pulls nicely at any rpm. Sweet motor.

MMI is awful, though, easily the weak spot in that car. The NAV is so cumbersome to use that I think I'd actually buy a 2nd portable unit and use that instead. Took us 15 minutes at times to find certain addresses.

If you have a choice, consider passing on MMI.

-juice

lovemyclk · September 2005

Rather than incur the expense of a nav system, a paper map and cellphone get me anywhere I need to be. Think I have the N/S/E/W thing in hand, so the nav systems in most of these cars are little more than expensive annoyances... IMO, of course

wale_bate1 · September 2005

I'd have agreed fully with that sentiment three years ago when I first bought a car with a NAV. I have found it truly useful maybe twice on the road. A big part of that, however, is operational. Mine is a built-in operated by a joystick, and in order to enter an address, a "keyboard" screen is used, and that's an annoyance. Also, for good reason, no data can be entered while the car is in motion. Not much use if you're en route on a crowded freeway in unfamiliar surroundings and are looking for something in particular.

As the things have become voice-operated now, for the most part, they finally make sense. More like actually having a navigator to help out. I find them useful only in unexpected situations, though. Generally, if I know where I need to get to before I leave, I can always Google Map it ahead of time. And locally, a recent Thomas Bros. guide is a whole lot less expensive...

ateixeira · September 2005

I used to feel the same way, so I can totally relate to what you're saying.

But check the NAV thread, there's a lot more to it than that. It estimates time of arrival down to the minute, so you know when you'll get there.

There are millioins of points-of-interest loaded in the database, so we could not only find food (2 Dennys in Annapolis MD) but also find out how far they are from the highway to save time, and you could even call in advance to see if a restaraunt is open, has a wait, or needs reservations, because it stores the phone numbers.

Another situation where it came in handy - we went to OC SunFest, and the parking lot at the board walk was closed. Most people were driving 30 blocks to the convention center and then taking a bus back. I found all the parking lots sorted by distance, called a few, found a spot, and saved both time and money. You could not have driven around to find all those parking lots, either.

There's more to it than you think, it's not just directions, not by a long shot.

-juice

david38 · September 2005

I bought the sedan - black with RS6 wheels and adaptive lights - fantastic. Still has a huge boot if I need to carry anything, and looks and feels great

marcelov · October 2005

I am currently a S60R owner and it is a lot of fun to drive. I never enjoyed driving in the rain or bad conditions so much. The fact that is a Volvo makes me feel much secure in case of a "problem". The only problem I have with it is that it is not a convertible, and living in Texas the weather almost demands a covertible. Mine S60R is not for sell so I can get the convertible:). If your are interested in a great black 04 S60R, let me know.

wale_bate1 · October 2005

Congrats!

jrollins · October 2005

Hey, where did u go to school in maine? i have dealt a lot with audi quattros and i have a A4 quattro, and my mom has a S6, (including the locking differentials) and they seem to me to be the best quattro awd system i have ever encountered, as you said they are a lot lower to the ground, and will grip to slippery conditions even without snow tires a lot better than any subaru i have ever driven. no disrespect i was just making my point

ateixeira · October 2005

A torsen is better for track/dry conditions, but no way is it better on ice and snow.

Torsens have what's called a torque bias ratio. For Quattro, that ratio is 2 to 1. So it can send 67% of power to one axle, 33% to the other.

Here's a technical explanation of a Torque Sensing differential:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential10.htm

And the relevant excerpt:

if one set of wheels loses traction completely, the Torsen differential will be unable to supply any torque to the other set of wheels. The bias ratio determines how much torque can be transferred, and five times zero is zero

That example was assuming a torque bias ratio of 5 to 1, but with Audi's 2 to 1 the results are the same. 2 times 0 still equals zero. The Torsen is completley useless in zero friction conditions like ice.

That's why Audi has long relied on traction control, i.e. to compensate for Quattro's shortcoming.

On a *dry* track, a Torsen is superior.

-juice

ateixeira · October 2005

By the way, I'm not saying you didn't experience better traction, but if you did, it was likely the tires you were riding on, which is the biggest factor (not the AWD type).

-juice

ralley1 · October 2005

I have read with amusement and a little disappointment the responses to which car is better, noting alot of emotion rather than appreciation for differences in opinion. Ok, enough of the "now kids, you behave" routine.

I got to this forum precisely because the interior of the S60R grabbed my attention. And while I've always felt Audi did the best interior in the business, my opinion was more on materials than an actual sense of artistic vision. I have owned audis, mercedes, bmws and japanese cars but never a volvo. Like many of you on this forum, I always considered volvos to be on the boring side.

After reading all the reviews on the S60R I am very interested in this vehicle. I am a performance nut, but I can't stand paying about 20k more than I think I should for it. I love german handling but much (not most) of their offerings' prices are based on buyers caring about about what others think of them owning such an expensive and trendy automobile. Hey, we're human! I guess we all care somewhat, it's just that I don't care as much as most other luxury car buyers.

So, interior is pretty sweet. I like the flowing lines and hope the materials are nice enough to be acceptable. The exterior is not bad, nice and flowing (incredible for a volvo). Performance seems to be very good for the price. No one can disrespect it unless it's from an emotional perspective. The only things I worry about, and a test drive will decide one of them, are whether or not there appears to be too much FWD bias through the corners for my liking, and whether or not with all the toys it has it will be a service nightmare down the road.

So to conclude: Audis, BMWs, Mercedes are all great and beautiful cars, but you simply don't get all that you pay for (I love them, I can afford them, but choose not to for my next vehicle). Japanese cars at the price point we are talking (I currently own a g35 coupe) get the job done, but feel like high performance economy cars. The new M may have changed all that, however. Finally, if the S60R is all the mags say it is, then I want it, pure and simple, and personally would love to see Volvo step away from its bland heritage and rise to the be among the top of the heap. I loved Infiniti's resurrection and would be happy if all the car brands that lacked were able to turn things around. Blind loyalty is for the ignorant. Loyalty is continuously earned. Think about that when you plan for the next ride...

Thanks for reading.

ateixeira · October 2005

Much as like them (the Haldex is IMO the best part-time AWD system on the market), those are quite a bit heavy to be a sports sedan.

-juice

lovemyclk · October 2005

Just wondering if you apply the same reasoning to other purchases... whether home electronics, suits, shoes or anything else for that matter? It isn't just about price, as any Rolex owner will tell you. My Submariner won't keep better time than a Seiko!

Hope you enjoy your Volvo. Whether I got what I paid for in my 2003 530SP is up to me, and I believe I am still reaping the rewards of owning this vehicle. Would be nice for the Scandinavian brands to elevate themselves in the minds of the traditional LPS buyer, as I've owned a Saab and loved it ('95 900SE Turbo Coupe). Just keep blandness away and focus on what makes the brand work, something I fear Saab has fallen victim to.

If you are prepared to love the S60R, you'll probably never regret the decision. Most cars in this space are "ownership-worthy", IMO

amm2 · November 2005

I currently own a 92 Acura Integra RS manual with 267,000 miles. Am looking for more snowworthy car for both New England winters. I don't necessarily need the sportiness as much as the great handling and steering. Would rather go to automatic at this point in life. Was considering small suv such as HOnda CRV or Suburu Forester, but have not been in to test drive. Would I be better off with a used Suburu Legacy sedan/wagon (will be transporting college student stuff)? I was concerned after reading about the head gasket problem with Suburu's. Will look at any car that can approach the Acura quality and still give me the good ride in snow. Do not want large SUV for economy reasons and may go to used for property tax reasons.

Ultimate AWD Sports Sedans

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