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Comments
Regarding steering feel, that was an odd comment because Audi has had that whole steering feel thing dialed in since the late 1970s or early 1980s, FWD, AWD, it makes no difference, they've been doing good in that department for a very long time.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I assume the lame BMW AWD suspension is not, as you say, dialed in.
In any event, the point was made as it is felt, period. Take it or leave it.
Regards,
OW
I know AWD in BMW sedans is relatively new and will no doubt improve. Do you really think Audi handling performance is that much better 335xi vs. an A4 awd?
Sorry for the lame question in advance...just trying to gain some perspective.
Regards,
OW
Best Regards,
Shipo
I think there are too many varieties of fruit getting into the basket for meaningful comparison here. As Shipo said, the AWD RS4 "winning" against the RWD IS-F is hardly a validation of anything.
As for BMW's vs. Audi's AWD systems, IMO, Audi's gets more accolades because the alternative in the A4 is a ho-hum FWD system that, frankly, didn't feel as nimble or tight as my TL 6-speed back in 2004 (and that's not saying much). Other than it's still too damn heavy, I would have to recommend the AWD A4 over the FWD A4 for almost any driving condition.
With the BMW, you are comparing their AWD system to arguably the best balanced, best handling RWD sedan on the market. Now that AWD added weight, imbalancing effect etc. becomes much more apparant, IMO.
You have already gone on record as stating that you prefer the handling of the 330xi over the non-sport 330i. I can't speak directly to that, because I've only driven the sport versions of both and have an opposite preference. And virtually all of the enthusiasts I know (who are better drivers than me) go in favor of the RWD versions of both the 3 and 5 series for performance. But in the end, there is still as much subjectivity to this equation as objectivity. My sence of "heavy" may be your sense of "planted" - and it appears from just this forum there are people who prefer a heavier, planted feel over a lighter, more nimble one. So be it.
I guess those boob tube videographers didn't invite the RWD SSC Ultimate Aero TT?
From Wikopedia:
The first run clocked 257.41 The return trip came up with 254.88 for the previously mentioned average of 256.18 besting Bugatti Veyron's speed by more than 2 mph (3 km/h). The results of this test, verified by Guinness World Records on October 9, 2007, gave the SSC Aero the world's fastest production car title.[5]
So sorry to take the wind out of your sails, Joe, but at least now when you are in fantasyland, you can fantasize about a car that is not only faster than the Boogerati, but about half of its price. Such a bargain.
I'm sticking a little closer to the surface of planet Earth when it comes to my car preferences, but dream away my friend.
It's in the Edmunds article on SEMA.
Supposedly it's an STi killer. I could go for something like that if it's stock and the price is right.
Thanks.
For it's price there is no other AWD that could touch it certainly not the feeble WRX! So for the money it would be the Ultimate AWD. Plus a useable hatchback style body.
I haven't sampled the latest BMW 3 series AWD models. I've driven the X3, but the AWD system has been revised since I've been behind the wheel.
I linked to the article more to show that Edmunds' ultimate sports sedan happens to be AWD. Not to compare Audi's Quattro to Lexus' RWD IS.
but who knows what those guys at bmw have instore for 2009?
anything twin TURBO scares me, especially a M5 awd twin turbo.
we will see!
until then safe & fun driving gentleman :shades:
at the track you loose, at 1/4mi. you loose, at 0to60, yep you loose, and every other catagory, bugatti wins, even in braking.
thats enough wind for my sails!
maybe the doubled price has it's many reasons.
safe & fun driving gentlemen. :shades:
Oops!
You've got me on that one although I'd still like to see a AWD MazdaSpeed 3 and an AWD Mini Cooper S for sale!
I'm sorry but to me 2mph seems like a really small thing when the weight of the driver would have an effect at those speeds. Also lots of cars including Jet Dragsters will easily go faster than that in the 1/4 mile but don't try and turn them. :surprise: :P
I'll still take the Bugatti over an Audi.
PML Builds 640hp Electric MINI
Surely it can't be an Electric Mini?!
While all the world's most famous motoring names look on, a British company, PML, has chosen the UK's most prestigious motor show as the venue to strip away all the misconceptions surrounding electric/hybrid vehicles and to showcase a truly awesome car. Featuring four revolutionary electric wheels, the standard BMW Mini One you can see on Stand 270 is predicted to have a top speed approaching 150mph and to out-accelerate a Porsche 911 Carrera from 0-60mph. Brake horsepower is a stunning 160bhp per wheel - 640bhp in total.
The car, dubbed the Mini QED, has been designed to run for four hours of combined urban/extra urban driving, powered only by a battery and bank of ultra capacitors. For longer journeys at higher speeds, a small conventional internal combustion engine (ICE) is used to re-charge the battery. In this hybrid mode, fuel economies of up to 80mpg can be achieved.
Explains Martin Boughtwood, PML's MD: "Until now, most electric vehicles have been little more than souped-up milk floats, limited by range and speed, with compromised performance. For those with a green conscience who also value an enhanced motoring experience, there is still something missing.
"Working in partnership with our customer, Synergy Innovations, we set out to demonstrate what our electric wheel technology is capable of. We simply took a standard BMW Mini One, discarded the engine, the disc brakes, the wheels, and the gearbox. These components were replaced by four of our electric wheels, a lithium polymer battery, a large ultra capacitor, a very small ICE with generator (so small it almost fits alongside the spare wheel), an energy management system and a sexy in-car display module."
The benefits of PML in-wheel drive technology are;
* It is adaptable to other vehicle chassis
* It eliminates the need for gearing and mechanical drive train
* It allows more space inside the car
The vehicle has three driver-selectable modes of operation:
* Eco mode for town/city frequent start-stop driving;
* Normal mode for daily commuting and ICE- equivalent operation, and
* Sport mode for super car performance.
Other notable features include:
* No (mechanical) brakes means returned energy!
All braking is performed by the wheel motors acting as very efficient electrical generators which return almost all of the energy back to the battery system. The beauty of this dual-circuit, ultra safe system is that your green conscience can be quite content even when accelerating hard, since you are assured of collecting most of the expended energy when it is time to slow down rapidly.
ABS as standard - even when accelerating
Because the wheels are high performance motors, ABS comes as a standard function built into each wheel's software. Now anti-skid can also be applied to acceleration since the motor can smoothly control torque delivery to/from the road in both cases. Flooring the brake or accelerator hard merely results in controlled maximum torque, giving the shortest possible stopping or acceleration time.
Clever wheels
The technology eliminates the need for crude differential gears to share power between left and right sides. The wheels are in constant communication with each other deciding 1000 times each second how much torque share is optimum for the current driving conditions. Should one wheel detect a slippery surface and take appropriate anti-skid actions, the other wheels are aware of this instantly and adopt an appropriate compensating strategy to keep the vehicle as stable as possible.
640 brake horsepower - for life!
Each wheel develops 160bhp - 640bhp in total. The original Mini One develops less than 100bhp with an engine that weighs nearly double the weight of the four electric wheels! Apart from wheel bearings there are no wearing parts in the electric wheels; this means the horsepower stays for the life of the vehicle - and beyond.
Simple, safe, versatile charging
As the battery level reduces, the rear mounted ICE/generator starts to automatically top up the battery. So when you arrive at your destination you can simply park the vehicle knowing that when you return the battery will be replenished. Alternatively you can take advantage of lower cost mains electricity and plug in to recharge. So you never need to worry about battery capacity or how to recharge. During operation, as the battery level falls the generator cuts in, enabling an average speed of 60 - 70mph to be sustained with no further battery depletion.
Super capacitor - super acceleration
Capacitors are used to store electrical energy. The difference between batteries and capacitors is that capacitors can release/absorb their energy 10 times faster than a battery. For acceleration or power boost at higher speeds the capacitor enables nitro-like performance, more than doubling the power from the battery during these events. Very efficient energy recovery means almost nothing is wasted during stop/start city travel.
Energy flow management
A significant key to super performance is optimum energy management which continuously decides where the energy flow should be - battery, super capacitor, generator or wheels. By clever optimisation of the flows, best use can be made of available reserves, enabling a fun driving experience whilst protecting the planet.
Small engine and generator
The small ICE weighs a mere 15kg (less than 1/10th of the original Mini One engine) and delivers peak power of 20kW and continuous power of 15kW. A high efficiency electrical generator is fitted to the engine to provide power when the battery depletion level demands. The key point is that the engine is run at a continuous speed and load - which results in optimum efficiency fuel conversion. After delivering the energy to the battery system the mileage equivalent translates to between 65 and 80mpg!
In-car display
With all this advanced technology the driver needs to have clear and complete information presented. The in-car display module uses the latest touch screen technology with intuitive display and scroll options. Selectable driving modes allow economy mode to sport boost mode at a touch. Displaying available mileage allocated by battery and fuel along with boost status, the display gives comprehensive information. As well as standard speed, diagnostic and status functions, the display is GPRS enabled allowing future options of:
* Remote diagnosis of any fault
* Auto tracking of speed limits (optional!)
* Auto management of generator to prevent inner city operation
* History storage and system configuration interface
QED: What Next?
Having developed it's high performance in-wheel drive systems, PML worked in partnership with Synergy Innovations to demonstrate, once and for all, that envi
So driver weight won't make a difference. You just might need a longer track.
So driver weight won't make a difference. You just might need a longer track.
I don't know if I totally buy that. There is a force going down (mass*gravity), and I could see how that affects acceleration, but then there are things like the coefficient of friction/rolling resistance (with its function of mass)that affect the amount of energy required to get to a certain speed.
Since this is theoretical anyway, it while both cars should achieve the same speed, it might take the heavier car an infinitely longer time to get there than the lighter one.
The new saloon will feature for the first time options for AWD, pneumatic air suspension and a hybrid model.
Regards,
OW
Weight does matter, on a street car probably not much but in facing everything is as light as possible. Then they will add weight if they need to to bring it within the regulations. I read all about the power needed to overcome drag and how it's exponential but that was some time back.
Ahh....me too. Won't happen :sick:
Anyone here bring up the new GT-R?? Not too shabby from what I have been reading. It does sound more profound if I were to say "I'll be outside washing and waxing my Porsche" rather then "I'll be outside washing and waxing my Nissan"
Regards,
OW
was upset when audi stopped producing turbo powered engines.
this was one of the major reasons why i purchased the bmw 335xi & also feel it's a good candidate for, ultimate awd sedans.
not saying,the RS4 aint a sweet awd vehicle, it's just that the cost & the potential, for the twin turbo engine of the 335xi, really gets me going!
safe & fun driving gentleman!
The Mazda Club Chat is on tonight. The chat room opens at 8:45PM ET Hope to see YOU there! Check out the schedule
Krzys
link title
Regards,
OW
Perhaps this will find it's way in Nissans of lesser performance capabilities.
Despite the published photos, it's something else to see the car in the flesh. Even more impressive is the car's performance, courtesy of a 3.8-liter twin-turbo V-6 that pumps out 480 bhp and about 430 lb.-ft. of torque. Nissan claims that the GT-R runs to 60 mph in 3.5 seconds, which puts it in Porsche 911 Turbo territory. In fact, GT-R project chief, Kazutoshi Mizuno, says that the GT-R lapped the famed North Course at the Nürburgring faster than the Porsche 911 Turbo. Not bad for a car that we hear will cost about $70,000. The car goes on sale first in Japan, then in the summer of 2008 in the U.S. as a 2009 model. R&T was the only magazine to drive a U.S.-spec model.
Regards,
OW
the near future, sure looks bright.
thanks, joe
Even within the class of snow tires, you still have to make compromises.
Heico Sportiv Volvo S80 T6 HPC review:
The lights of Las Vegas reflect flawlessly in the gleaming aluminum paint of the Heico Sportiv S80 T6 High Performance Concept (HPC). Being shown for the first time in North America at the 2007 Specialty Equipment Market Association tradeshow in Las Vegas, NV, the S80 T6 HPC is a literal reflection of power, sophistication and athleticism as can be seen in its unique 7-layer "aluminum effect" body paint. But the S80 T6 HPC is more than just a pretty face. It`s a true example that a powerful luxury sedan can also be sensitive to the environment.
"Heico Sportiv is honored to once again be working with Volvo Cars to build the exciting S80 T6 HPC for this year`s SEMA show," said Holger Hedtke, President of Heico. The 2007 show marks the second year Heico Sportiv has partnered with Volvo Cars to create a SEMA concept. This year, Heico shows its mettle with the S80 T6 HPC and the C30 Surf Pattern (see separate release). "The S80 T6 HPC is really where we put all our efforts this year," continued Hedtke, "It is our most advance concept to date and it`s one that Heico is extremely proud of."
But getting to Las Vegas wasn`t easy. The project began as the curtain fell on last year`s SEMA show. Behind closed doors Heico executives sat down to put to paper the 2007 concept. The result is a Volvo S80 T6 that has been tuned to an amazing 350-horsepower while running on bioethanol fuel.
When the S80 arrived at Heico`s shop in Weiterstadt, Germany in early 2007, Holger and his team knew they had their work cut out for them. The S80 began life with a 3.2-liter inline-six engine and front-wheel drive because production had yet to begin on the Volvo S80 T6, which has standard all-wheel drive. A new T6 engine was delivered from Sweden and work began in earnest.
Performance
The first order of business was to make a significant increase in horsepower. The standard Volvo T6 engine produces 281 horsepower, which is enough to move the S80 with spirited ease. But this is a SEMA concept and a significant bump in horsepower and torque were a necessity. Once the engine was modified to run on E85 ethenol, Heico turned its attention to maximizing power with high-performance engine software, a new intercooler and a stainless steel racing exhaust system. The end results were impressive: 350 horsepower at 5,500 rpm and 405 lb.-ft. of torque between 1,500 and 4,000 rpm. The Heico S80 T6 HPC is estimated to reach 62 mph in just 5.8 seconds.
But getting that power to the ground required extensive work. As the standard S80 3.2 is a front-wheel-drive car it was determined that to truly explore the vehicle`s potential all-wheel drive was needed. Enter Volvo`s renowned Haldex All-Wheel-Drive system with Instant Traction. The system continuously routes power to whichever wheel has the most traction and Heico modified it with heartier gears to handle the enormous amount of torque.
Stopping power is provided via a 6-piston braking system with custom blue-painted calipers and high performance brake pads. Volvo`s ABS and electronic brake distribution systems are fully functioning. Large 13.9-inch disc brakes reside in custom forged alloy wheels measuring 9-inches wide and 20 inches in diameter. The specially developed Volution X wheels are wrapped in aggressive 255/30R-20 Continental tires.
The Heico S80 T6 HPC rides on a chassis that is 1.5 inches lower than Volvo`s set ride height and the sport-tuned suspension features firmer springs and struts at all four corners. "We aimed to tune all the components to achieve a dynamic yet harmonious ride. In other words, a true sports car experience without losing the luxurious and comfortable touch that is the hallmark of the Volvo S80," noted Hedtke.
About Heico
Heico Sportiv was founded outside of Frankfurt, Germany in 1995. It has grown to become Europe`s leading Volvo tuning firm. Heico has the longest running history of endurance racing featuring Volvo cars spanning 13 years. This serves as the engineering basis for offering high-quality components for Volvo road cars. Please refer to www.heicosportivna.com for more information.
End of Heico Sportiv Volvo S80 T6 HPC review.
Nice! Who says green can't be mean!
Regards,
OW
Lamborghini revealed its new Reventon supercar at the Frankfurt auto show earlier this year and just last week debuted the Reventon in the U.S. at the Los Angeles Auto Show. Based on the Murciélago sports car, the Reventon is said to be inspired by the F-22 Raptor fighter jet.
Permanent AWD
650 HP/650TQ/60DegV-12
I guess the market for AWD is going upscale these days!
Regards,
OW
October 10, 2007
Torque Vectoring: The Hyper-Smart, Fuel-Efficient Future of All-Wheel Drive
Everyone knows there are control and capability benefits of all-wheel drive when you’re dealing with the elements—come sand or high water. Dropping an engine’s torque down to the ground with four tire patches instead of two would give any vehicle more traction. But headed to market in more and more performance cars are new systems that can seamlessly and instantaneously distribute torque to any single wheel at a time. Welcome to torque vectoring all-wheel drive.
Most modern all-wheel-drive cars and SUVs already offer some type of computer-controlled, part-time engagement to save fuel. When the computer detects that one or more wheels is rotating faster than the vehicle’s speed or that the vehicle is yawing off its intended path of travel, the system steps in. First, it engages the other drive axle and applies a proportion of the vehicle’s torque to it. If the wheels continue to spin, the computer reduces engine torque or even brakes one of the wheels, if necessary.
In recent times, these systems have taken a fairly radical step forward. Automakers have reinvented front and rear differentials to the point where an engine’s torque can be passed around—or vectored—to each corner of the car. In other words, your torque can go from front to back like a traditional all-wheel-drive setup and distribute from left to right on a given axle—all very, very quickly. It’s like having a computer-controlled, super-speed limited slip differential in each axle. This means not only great foul-weather traction but also eerily competent handling performance on dry roads.
Acura, for instance, has offered its Super Handling All-Wheel-Drive (SH-AWD) system for several years. It monitors vehicle speed, wheel speed, gear position, steering angle, yaw rate, lateral G forces and other inputs, while automatically adding torque to the outside rear wheel in corners to make the car turn quicker. A set of electromagnetic clutches in the rear differential passes the torque from side to side. The system, which normally distributes torque 90 percent up front and 10 percent in the rear, quickly changes to a 50/50 split during acceleration or hard cornering. The system can then send some or all of that 50 percent going to the rear axle directly to the outside tire to make the vehicle bend into a corner more sharply. Mitsubishi, a torque vectoring pioneer, has used a similar system called Active Yaw Control in the rear axle of its high-performance Evolution sport sedan since the late ’90s.
Audi, BMW and others are taking it a step further: While SH-AWD only works on the rear axle of a normally front-drive vehicle, new systems from automotive suppliers Ricardo in Britain and ZF in Germany can vector torque to all four tires simultaneously.
The Ricardo Cross-Axle Torque-Vectoring system uses wet clutches and planetary gearsets, in both the front and rear differentials, that are controlled by electrical, electromechanical or electrohydraulic control systems. Ricardo says the system’s response time, from the push of the accelerator to the delivery of up to 90 percent of available torque, is only about 0.1 seconds. If Ricardo’s vectoring is used only in an all-wheel-drive vehicle’s center differential, the engine torque effectively gets passed around front-to-rear and side-to-side—with split-second accuracy—for every driving condition. Look for it in the new Audi A4 and A5.
German transmission and driveline company ZF has also developed a torque-vectoring system, called Vector Drive—and it’s ready for volume production in all-wheel and rear-wheel drive vehicles. The system distributes drive torque individually to each of the rear wheels, generating a yaw movement around the vertical axis. This improves both cornering performance and vehicle stability in less-than-ideal road conditions. When driving straight, the torque vectoring rear axle behaves like an ordinary open differential. Drive torque is distributed equally to the wheels. Torque is only distributed individually along both halfshafts on an axle during cornering, controlled by an electromechanically actuated multi-disk brake. The ZF system also generates wheel differential torque independently of the drive torque. When cornering through a downhill section off the throttle, the outer wheel receives more drive torque than the inner wheel, allowing crisper turn-in. The gears of the planetary gearset don’t turn when driving straight, so the system saves fuel too. The torque-vectoring drive also acts like a positive-traction or locking differential on dry or uneven traction startups, with torque going to the wheel with higher friction potential.
These new torque vectoring systems will undoubtedly join forces with the pre-existing ABS brakes, traction control, stability control, steering and rollover mitigation systems. The result will be smarter, safer and quicker vehicles, whether it’s on a rain-soaked freeway, a snowy driveway or a racetrack. —Jim McCraw
I'll take a torque-vectoring capable 335xi!
Regards,
OW
thinking that my 335xi will definitley be a, ultimate awd sedan, soon enough.
safe & fun driving.
UJ
link title
It's only a matter of time when RWD will be history.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
I put out some eggnog and cookies and if you show your id - and have a designated driver! - there might be a snort in it for you should you be so inclined. :-D
Information revealed yesterday in a UAW document outlined GM’s plans to install a dual-clutch gearbox in the C7 Corvette and now we have reports that it might feature an AWD system as well. GM and Sweden’s Haldex have developed a new performance AWD system called XWD that debuted in the facelifted Saab 9-3. The AWD system features an electronic differential and can send up to 85% of torque to an individual wheel to prevent slippage, whether it’s from a fast corner or when trying to put power to the ground.
Engineers at a Haldex plant in Sweden were recently spotted working on a new GM prototype with a rear-track much wider than that of any current Saab and this is thought to be a test-mule for the next-generation Corvette. A new Haldex facility being set-up in Mexico could soon see development of the AWD Corvette prototype head to North America.
GM hasn’t revealed any official details about the next Corvette apart from the fact that it will retain the front-engine layout. According to parts suppliers, a mid-engine layout was ruled out because of the costs involved in developing such a car. Developers are instead looking at AWD traction to improve the Corvette’s track performance. We already know what it’s capable of with just RWD. Now imagine what an AWD Corvette with more than 600hp could do to the competition.
Either way, it seems like AWD is getting deeper into the auto industry at every end. I guess if Porsche did it 'Vette might as well follow and perhaps the CTS-V...it works well for over-powered sedans.
I guess the RS4 is still the ultimate for now but who knows?
Regards
OW
From everything I've been reading on the Edmunds site and in forums, the two cars favorably compare! I have a one reservation about the MB - the paint, and one reservation about the BMW - the tires. Is there anything else I'm missing! I don't know which one to buy.
Somebody help me!
Let us know how you make out.
Regards,
OW
So long as better tires fit the same rims, a very good set of tires should not cost more than $600 or so.