GM continues their fine tradition. Apparently, according to R, Wagoneer, the General's emphasis, admidst rising oil prices, etc., is to focus on SUVS and Trucks. Of course it depends on __what__ they redesign in these lines as to how sensible that is. If it is to stuff in bigger engines and make vehicles larger and heavier, ok - hopefully that crowd enjoys paying more for the fuel they will use. If it's to modernize their design, thats' another thing.
I know the long-lead press introduction for the Solstice is coming up. GM continues to be hit-or-miss on getting us invited to their press intros, but hopefully they'll get this one right.
Ironic when you consider that in the last six months I've been on a Ferrari, Porsche and Aston Martin press trip (F430 -- in Italy, 911 Carrera Carbiolet/Carrera GT and DB9, respectively).
It was a rare case of my being the only SUV in the group of cars around me, so besides being the lead vehicle I probably also presented the "easiest" target for the officer to hit with laser.
One of the key things he remembered was how certain cars really stood out to him as he cruised with the officer, and the officier confirmed that it's often those vehicles police target.
The biggest factor in avoiding a traffic ticket? Go unnoticed by the police (yes, that seems pretty obvious, but it really can't be overstated).
OK, no more traffic/ticket comments (until something happens with either of my pending tickets, at which time I'll let everyone know how they turn out).
I recently purchased a new (for me) vehicle, and I want to see who can figure out what I bought. I will answer "yes" or "no" questions (think 20 questions) to help everyone figure it out.
Here are the hints: 1. It's a relativley obscure vehicle, but for enthusiasts of this genre it's very well known and appreciated
2. It's closely related to a vehicle I've already owned in the last 10 years. That list is: 1970 Plymouth GTX (currently owned) 1973 Saab Sonett III (currently owned) 1975 Triumph Trident (currently owned) 2002 Mini Cooper 2001 Ford Bullitt Mustang 2000 Honda Odyssey 1991 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin Turbo 1991 Ducati 851 Superbike 1989 Dodge Shadow Shelby CSX
3. It's a pre-2000 vehicle
I'd like to say there's a prize, but apparently giving away prizes opens up a legal can of worms, so the only prize is being able to show everyone else up in the discussion area by getting it right first.
Is it a "prestigious" car? (Lexus, Mercedes-Benz, Saab, Volvo) Is it a light truck? (minivan, SUV or pickup) Is it a 1999 BMW 323i? Is it a 1999 Saab 9-3 SE? Is it an automobile or a motorcycle? Was it built during the 90's?
Is it a "prestigious" car? (Lexus, Mercedes-Benz, Saab, Volvo) No Is it a light truck? (minivan, SUV or pickup) No Is it a 1999 BMW 323i? No Is it a 1999 Saab 9-3 SE? No Is it an automobile or a motorcycle? Motorcycle Was it built during the 90's? No
Just to keep everyone up to speed, we now know: 1. It is a motorcycle 2. It is foreign 3. It was built before 1990 4. It is not Japanese 5. It has three cylinders
Depending on your knowledge level, this is pretty specific information. You're getting closer.
Remember, I said it is closely tied to one of my previously/currently owned vehicles...
I had to fill up a 2006 Range Rover SC Supercharged (a rather unwieldy name, BTW) the other night. The low fuel light was on, so admittedly it took a fair amount of petrol to top it off. And, of course, it requires premium fuel.
Bottom line, the total fuel bill was $70.35!!!! For one fill up!
This is definitely the most money I've ever paid to fill a car -- and I've filled a lot of test cars over the past 10 years. Thank god it was with the corporate fuel card.
I may have to reconsider my impending Odyssey purchase (certified 2002-2004) and start re-considering a Prius. Or maybe I'll just buy a Segway for each of my family members. I'm sure my four-year-old daughter would get the whole "lean to go" thing eventually...
The Odyssey is pretty fuel efficient for a minivan. Some days when I'm using Cruise Control on the highway in my 02 EX, I can get 26-27 MPG, slightly above the EPA numbers.
And since your new "automobile" is a motorcycle, I have no clue what it might be..
1989 BMW K75 (BMW and mini cooper connection) No, but a good guess (three cylinders, foreign, motorcycle, pre-1990). My new "vehicle" (never said automobile) is even closer in relation to something from my current/previous vehicle list.
Hi.. I have no idea wrt the vehicle Karl has acquired, but a question about testing:
The Chevy cobalt, as tested by one leading car magazine, was deemed as having a well isolated engine (mag quoted quiet steel, noise eating foam, etc) - they had previously bashed the Saturn ION, with same engine, for being noisy. The leading Consumer magazine tested the Cobalt and said its engine was very noisy.
Huh?
I have also found car magazines often get prototypes or first builds to test (this happened with one mag and the Malibu Maxx (I couldn't find the problems the mag pointed out in my Maxx - Chevy corporate told me the mag evaluated a pre-production model made for press evaluation!).
It's really annoying to read a car mag, hear their report about whatever it is, then visit the dealer and wonder what the heck it was the mag actually drove!
A couple things about "pre-production" cars and manufacturer rhetoric:
First, almost every time there's an area of disappointment in a test car the manufacturer will hoist the ol' "oh, that was a pre-production model" catch phrase.
Sometimes the car really was a pre-production model, and sometimes it wasn't. But even more important is that, usually, the pre-production model is either identical, or nearly identical, to the final production model with regard to the characteristic in question.
On rare occasions we get a pre-production car that is really rough and it's obvious the car is pre-production, or maybe even a "test mule" (which is at least one stage before pre-production, maybe more). In those cases we either don't comment on issues like build quality, interior materials and sound insulation, or we comment and throw out huge disclaimers about the vehicle being either prototype or pre-production.
But most of the time when we're told a car was "pre-production" and that's why it suffered from XYZ we'll make sure we get a vehicle the manufacturer claims as final production to re-check the issue in question. And basically, the same issue is almost always present in the "final production" version.
Here's an example:
Recently we had a comparison test where one vehicle was downgraded for interior material quality. We called the manufacturer to ask if it was a pre-production vehicle and if the final production version would have higher quality materials. Surprise! -- they assured it would. The next day we went to a local dealer where the same model was available for purchase (very often when we have a test car the first showroom models are just hitting local dealer lots). We asked the dealer if we could take a look at the vehicle, the dealer said "yes" and we quickly confirmed the EXACT same interior issues that our "pre-production" model had suffered from.
I'll admit that sometimes we get a test car that really is less impressive than the versions offered to buying customers. But it's by far the exception, not the rule.
I don't what it was that Karl bought since I don't know much about motorbikes.
But anyway here goes..
There are several new vehicles coming up and I was wondering when you were going to do a first drive/full test on them.
Lincoln Mark LT Mercury Mariner Cadillac XLR-V Dodge Charger Hummer H3 Saturn Sky/Pontiac Solstice Saturn Aura
By the way, it's already April 2005 and I havent found a first drive or a full test on the new Chevrolet Cobalt. The car is already in production - so is a road test coming soon?
When will you do a test on the Dodge Charger?
Finally, I wanted some info on the GM minivans, and I found a full test on the Buick Terraza, and a first drive on the Relay/Terraza, but I found no info on the Pontiac Montana SV6 and the Chevrolet Uplander. Do you plan to do tests on these vehicles, as well as the Saturn Relay anytime soon?
Combining the "GM doesn't get it" and the "Solstice intro" topics ...
Don't know how many of you watch "The Apprentice," but last week the task was to design a brochure for the Solstice. After the best brochure was chosen, the winning team was told by Pontiac execs that their brochure would actually be used by Pontiac/GM for the car. The brochure looked nice but was a huge cliche, with certain descriptive words (desire, etc.) being highlighted and then defined, dictionary style. I cannot figure out why Pontiac would use that brochure except for even when it comes to brochures, GM is also out of ideas.
There are several new vehicles coming up and I was wondering when you were going to do a first drive/full test on them.
Lincoln Mark LT scheduled for early June Mercury Mariner not on schedule yet, but we are working to get one Cadillac XLR-V still not available for testing yet Dodge Charger press intro in one month Hummer H3 press intro in one month Saturn Sky/Pontiac Solstice press intro for Solstice happens soon, but no invite yet -- Sky still a ways off Saturn Aura no press intro scheduled yet, still a ways off
I agree it looks better than the others. If they can fix that platform's wacky handling at the limit (makes the current Explorer feel like a sports car) it might be worth a look.
Last Fiday I instrument tested the new Range Rover SC and E55 Wagon.
The Range Rover SC is pretty much what you'd expect -- a Range Rover with more power. It did seem better behaved in the slalom than the last one I drove, but it's still too tall and heavy be described as anything resembling nimble. I was disappointed by the transmission, which was herky-jerky at low speeds and lazy on upshifts. The sound system was awesome -- which it should be for $90,000. It also stopped, repeatedly, from 60 mph in under 120 feet. For a 5,500 pound SUV, that is damn impressive!
The E55 Wagon is so clearly the coolest wagon ever created that I am spoiled from buying any other wagon. Yes, this car is expensive, too, but it pulled a 13.33 second quarter mile at 110 mph! It also stopped in less than 125 feet and was quite stable in the slalom. Just to put things in perspective, that 13.33 quarter-mile time is 3/10th of a second faster than an M3 competition package we tested just a week earlier (the M3 pulled a 14 flat). It's also faster than the last new Corvette we tested (13.6), though that one didn't have the Z51 package and felt weaker than normal. And don't get me started about the "active seat bolsters" that automatically expand to hold you in the seat based on lateral forces. It certainly made slalom testing interesting.
Trust me, don't drive this car unles you can afford it. I must keep my wife from ever discovering the E55 wagon...
I already read the first drive and the full test of the Cobalt SS Supercharged. Looks like a winner for Chevy. However, I was looking for a road test on the sedan version. Haven't you done one yet?
Also, when will you do a test on the Pontiac Montana SV6, Chevrolet Uplander and the Saturn Relay? I've only seen a Buick Terraza test by edmunds and car and driver. Both reviews said pretty much the same thing. An overpriced vehicle without any engine power, that lags behind the Odyssey, Sienna and Caravan.
I can't imagine why the Chevy, Pontiac, and Saturn variants would be different in any significant way from the Buick. Same platform, same engine, same tranny, maybe a little less glitz. Why bother?
Now the Cobalt sedan, that's another matter altogether.
On the GM Blog, Bob Lutz praises the Cobalt SS for its performance and its 18" tires (Regular Cobalts have 16"). The upcoming Maxx SS is the same - 18" dubs .vs. 16" normal. And it seems every major performance car is rushing to put "dubs" on performance cars.
Is this just a temporary urban fad or what? What roads do these cars drive on? Consumer mags I've read (and Edmunds, in different fashion) remark how a "+2" dub or bigger gets destroyed by a pothole or bad bump that a "normal" performance tire laughs off? Both SS models Lutz refers to fall into this category.
Do these huge wheels and tires __really__ improve handling so much that it's worthwhile to put up with bent wheels and rough rides over real roads? How many people are rich enough to afford replacing a $5-700 wheel and tire every time the LA/whatever freeway socks 'em with potholes after a rain storm?
In your experience, do manufacturers of these "performance" cars offer options so that drivers on real roads can get tires that will hold up, but still offer good performance? If some folks want dubs, fine and dandy! But it would be great if manufacturers gave us a choice!
Comments
Of course it depends on __what__ they redesign in these lines as to how sensible that is. If it is to stuff in bigger engines and make vehicles larger and heavier, ok - hopefully that crowd enjoys paying more for the fuel they will use. If it's to modernize their design, thats' another thing.
I don't mean to continue the ticket discussion, but what car were you driving when you were caught speeding?
Ironic when you consider that in the last six months I've been on a Ferrari, Porsche and Aston Martin press trip (F430 -- in Italy, 911 Carrera Carbiolet/Carrera GT and DB9, respectively).
Maybe someday we'll be on GM's A-list...
It was a rare case of my being the only SUV in the group of cars around me, so besides being the lead vehicle I probably also presented the "easiest" target for the officer to hit with laser.
Ticket magnets are easy to desrcibe in one phrase: anything that stands out. Our Senior Consumer Advice Editor Phil Reed rode along with a traffic officer a few years back and learned a lot. Phil also wrote a story about avoiding a ticket and one about beating a ticket you've already gotten:
http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/driving/articles/45280/article.html
http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/driving/articles/45103/article.html
One of the key things he remembered was how certain cars really stood out to him as he cruised with the officer, and the officier confirmed that it's often those vehicles police target.
The biggest factor in avoiding a traffic ticket? Go unnoticed by the police (yes, that seems pretty obvious, but it really can't be overstated).
OK, no more traffic/ticket comments (until something happens with either of my pending tickets, at which time I'll let everyone know how they turn out).
I recently purchased a new (for me) vehicle, and I want to see who can figure out what I bought. I will answer "yes" or "no" questions (think 20 questions) to help everyone figure it out.
Here are the hints:
1. It's a relativley obscure vehicle, but for enthusiasts of this genre it's very well known and appreciated
2. It's closely related to a vehicle I've already owned in the last 10 years. That list is:
1970 Plymouth GTX (currently owned)
1973 Saab Sonett III (currently owned)
1975 Triumph Trident (currently owned)
2002 Mini Cooper
2001 Ford Bullitt Mustang
2000 Honda Odyssey
1991 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin Turbo
1991 Ducati 851 Superbike
1989 Dodge Shadow Shelby CSX
3. It's a pre-2000 vehicle
I'd like to say there's a prize, but apparently giving away prizes opens up a legal can of worms, so the only prize is being able to show everyone else up in the discussion area by getting it right first.
Let the games begin!
(only because you seem to like Mopars..)
Second choice.. Triumph TR-8
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Is it foreign or domestic?
Does the brand still exist?
No
(only because you seem to like Mopars..)
Second choice.. Triumph TR-8 No.
Is it foreign or domestic? Foreign
Does the brand still exist? Yes
Good questions. Start broad and narrow it down.
Now you know it's foreign and from a brand that still exists.
Could be car or motorcycle...I need "yes" or "no" questions (or at least questions I can answer with one word, like "Foreign or Domestic")
Is it a light truck? (minivan, SUV or pickup)
Is it a 1999 BMW 323i?
Is it a 1999 Saab 9-3 SE?
Is it an automobile or a motorcycle?
Was it built during the 90's?
Anyway, is it a car?
Is it an asian make?
If it is a motorcycle I am screwed - don't know them well.
How about a Datsun 510? Technically Datsun still exists as Nissan.
Mitsubishi 3000GT
How many cylinders?
Is it a light truck? (minivan, SUV or pickup) No
Is it a 1999 BMW 323i? No
Is it a 1999 Saab 9-3 SE? No
Is it an automobile or a motorcycle? Motorcycle
Was it built during the 90's? No
Is it an asian make? No
How about a Datsun 510? Technically Datsun still exists as Nissan. No
How many cylinders? three
Just to keep everyone up to speed, we now know:
1. It is a motorcycle
2. It is foreign
3. It was built before 1990
4. It is not Japanese
5. It has three cylinders
Depending on your knowledge level, this is pretty specific information. You're getting closer.
Remember, I said it is closely tied to one of my previously/currently owned vehicles...
Bottom line, the total fuel bill was $70.35!!!! For one fill up!
This is definitely the most money I've ever paid to fill a car -- and I've filled a lot of test cars over the past 10 years. Thank god it was with the corporate fuel card.
I may have to reconsider my impending Odyssey purchase (certified 2002-2004) and start re-considering a Prius. Or maybe I'll just buy a Segway for each of my family members. I'm sure my four-year-old daughter would get the whole "lean to go" thing eventually...
SHEESH!!!
And since your new "automobile" is a motorcycle, I have no clue what it might be..
The Chevy cobalt, as tested by one leading car magazine, was deemed as having a well isolated engine (mag quoted quiet steel, noise eating foam, etc) - they had previously bashed the Saturn ION, with same engine, for being noisy. The leading Consumer magazine tested the Cobalt and said its engine was very noisy.
Huh?
I have also found car magazines often get prototypes or first builds to test (this happened with one mag and the Malibu Maxx (I couldn't find the problems the mag pointed out in my Maxx - Chevy corporate told me the mag evaluated a pre-production model made for press evaluation!).
It's really annoying to read a car mag, hear their report about whatever it is, then visit the dealer and wonder what the heck it was the mag actually drove!
How does Edmunds avoid this?
First, almost every time there's an area of disappointment in a test car the manufacturer will hoist the ol' "oh, that was a pre-production model" catch phrase.
Sometimes the car really was a pre-production model, and sometimes it wasn't. But even more important is that, usually, the pre-production model is either identical, or nearly identical, to the final production model with regard to the characteristic in question.
On rare occasions we get a pre-production car that is really rough and it's obvious the car is pre-production, or maybe even a "test mule" (which is at least one stage before pre-production, maybe more). In those cases we either don't comment on issues like build quality, interior materials and sound insulation, or we comment and throw out huge disclaimers about the vehicle being either prototype or pre-production.
But most of the time when we're told a car was "pre-production" and that's why it suffered from XYZ we'll make sure we get a vehicle the manufacturer claims as final production to re-check the issue in question. And basically, the same issue is almost always present in the "final production" version.
Here's an example:
Recently we had a comparison test where one vehicle was downgraded for interior material quality. We called the manufacturer to ask if it was a pre-production vehicle and if the final production version would have higher quality materials. Surprise! -- they assured it would. The next day we went to a local dealer where the same model was available for purchase (very often when we have a test car the first showroom models are just hitting local dealer lots). We asked the dealer if we could take a look at the vehicle, the dealer said "yes" and we quickly confirmed the EXACT same interior issues that our "pre-production" model had suffered from.
I'll admit that sometimes we get a test car that really is less impressive than the versions offered to buying customers. But it's by far the exception, not the rule.
Closer still...but not correct. You guys are certainly on the right track.
Jason
But anyway here goes..
There are several new vehicles coming up and I was wondering when you were going to do a first drive/full test on them.
Lincoln Mark LT
Mercury Mariner
Cadillac XLR-V
Dodge Charger
Hummer H3
Saturn Sky/Pontiac Solstice
Saturn Aura
By the way, it's already April 2005 and I havent found a first drive or a full test on the new Chevrolet Cobalt. The car is already in production - so is a road test coming soon?
When will you do a test on the Dodge Charger?
Finally, I wanted some info on the GM minivans, and I found a full test on the Buick Terraza, and a first drive on the Relay/Terraza, but I found no info on the Pontiac Montana SV6 and the Chevrolet Uplander. Do you plan to do tests on these vehicles, as well as the Saturn Relay anytime soon?
Don't know how many of you watch "The Apprentice," but last week the task was to design a brochure for the Solstice. After the best brochure was chosen, the winning team was told by Pontiac execs that their brochure would actually be used by Pontiac/GM for the car. The brochure looked nice but was a huge cliche, with certain descriptive words (desire, etc.) being highlighted and then defined, dictionary style. I cannot figure out why Pontiac would use that brochure except for even when it comes to brochures, GM is also out of ideas.
Norton Commando..
Good guess!! You might be right..
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Lincoln Mark LT scheduled for early June
Mercury Mariner not on schedule yet, but we are working to get one
Cadillac XLR-V still not available for testing yet
Dodge Charger press intro in one month
Hummer H3 press intro in one month
Saturn Sky/Pontiac Solstice press intro for Solstice happens soon, but no invite yet -- Sky still a ways off
Saturn Aura no press intro scheduled yet, still a ways off
Also, Cobalt First Drive was posted back in February; full test in March. Here are the links:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=104435
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=104953
The BSA Rocket Three and Triumph Trident guesses were much closer...
I have seen a couple around and they look pretty sharp. The best of the bunch on the over used platform.
I agree it looks better than the others. If they can fix that platform's wacky handling at the limit (makes the current Explorer feel like a sports car) it might be worth a look.
The Range Rover SC is pretty much what you'd expect -- a Range Rover with more power. It did seem better behaved in the slalom than the last one I drove, but it's still too tall and heavy be described as anything resembling nimble. I was disappointed by the transmission, which was herky-jerky at low speeds and lazy on upshifts. The sound system was awesome -- which it should be for $90,000. It also stopped, repeatedly, from 60 mph in under 120 feet. For a 5,500 pound SUV, that is damn impressive!
The E55 Wagon is so clearly the coolest wagon ever created that I am spoiled from buying any other wagon. Yes, this car is expensive, too, but it pulled a 13.33 second quarter mile at 110 mph! It also stopped in less than 125 feet and was quite stable in the slalom. Just to put things in perspective, that 13.33 quarter-mile time is 3/10th of a second faster than an M3 competition package we tested just a week earlier (the M3 pulled a 14 flat). It's also faster than the last new Corvette we tested (13.6), though that one didn't have the Z51 package and felt weaker than normal. And don't get me started about the "active seat bolsters" that automatically expand to hold you in the seat based on lateral forces. It certainly made slalom testing interesting.
Trust me, don't drive this car unles you can afford it. I must keep my wife from ever discovering the E55 wagon...
I already read the first drive and the full test of the Cobalt SS Supercharged. Looks like a winner for Chevy. However, I was looking for a road test on the sedan version. Haven't you done one yet?
Also, when will you do a test on the Pontiac Montana SV6, Chevrolet Uplander and the Saturn Relay? I've only seen a Buick Terraza test by edmunds and car and driver. Both reviews said pretty much the same thing. An overpriced vehicle without any engine power, that lags behind the Odyssey, Sienna and Caravan.
Now the Cobalt sedan, that's another matter altogether.
Is this just a temporary urban fad or what? What roads do these cars drive on? Consumer mags I've read (and Edmunds, in different fashion) remark how a "+2" dub or bigger gets destroyed by a pothole or bad bump that a "normal" performance tire laughs off? Both SS models Lutz refers to fall into this category.
Do these huge wheels and tires __really__ improve handling so much that it's worthwhile to put up with bent wheels and rough rides over real roads? How many people are rich enough to afford replacing a $5-700 wheel and tire every time the LA/whatever freeway socks 'em with potholes after a rain storm?
In your experience, do manufacturers of these "performance" cars offer options so that drivers on real roads can get tires that will hold up, but still offer good performance? If some folks want dubs, fine and dandy! But it would be great if manufacturers gave us a choice!