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Yes, drums in the back will still stop a car - no doubt. I for one, prefer the four wheel disk brakes, and if the car comes with anti-lock or is part of a pkg. deal, will opt for anti-lock brakes next time. To date, I only had one car with anti-lock brakes. They were pretty poor, but then again it was on a '92 Achieva. I assume today we have better equipment available. -Loren
No, that's just it, I'm not condoning a lockup. What I'm saying is that my drums provide more than ample braking power, and even on new, stock-size tires (the Michelins on the car at the time had less than 20k miles on them when I had the wreck caused by the lockup).
Someone mentioned not buying a car without ABS. In my case, I'd always opt FOR Anti-Lock brakes, but the 1996 that I have w/o them was a gift (given to me when i turned 15), so i had no choice in the matter.
I realize discs are more resistant to fade, but with my use of the car in Alabama (a hilly, but not strenuous area on brakes) they just aren't necessary for my type of driving.
I think you will find that your disk brakes are easier to modulate and get out of more quickly even you start to lock them up. Better feel, and in the wet, as in rainy days, you don't have to drag the brakes a bit to be sure they are dried to stop. Yeah, those drum in the back get the job done, and if like ya say, the car came that way, they will work. Seems like some drums of olden days, as in 60's cars were better than others in that they gave a little better handling from one make to another. Some were more of a handful to try and bring the car to a straight stop than others. With these new FWD cars, most of the work is done up front -- actually all too much weight on up front. -Loren
Actually, the brakes in my old car are a lot easier to modulate than the touchy brakes in my new one, but I don't think it has anything to do with brake type.
It should be noted, that when I had the wreck, i was 17, and had never locked-up my brakes at extended-length before. I knew how to pulse them (and had several times in slick road conditions because my old tires were prone to slide - my new Bridgestone Potenza G009s are 200% better in this regard). When i had the wreck, the roads were dry, my adrenaline pumped, and my inexperience showed by me skidding so long that I flat spotted all four tires to the point of the car vibrating over 40 MPH.
With these new FWD cars, most of the work is done up front
More reason that I don't feel strongly in do-or-die with discs versus drums. I'll take discs, I know they are superior in many regards, but I wouldn't pay extra to get them, and that's that. If I lived in a place which caused me to ride my brakes heavily (mountains) I would certainly feel differently.
Yes, not cheap when compared to some Hondas/ Toyotas such as yours. Still, a lot better than my Chevy. I can live with a "less-than-perfect" car. But I have lost my appetite for "terrible" cars.
To the guy who's wife is due in April: Congrats and best of luck to you. You're going to be in for the RIDE OF YOUR LIFE! You should be able to fit a stroller in either car. The stroller fits in both my Prelude and my wife's protege. The problem is space. With the rear facing car seat in place, the Protege becomes cramped for a front passanger. When we go places, my wife rides in the back with the baby. It is better than my Prelude which requires the passanger seat to be moved up all the wway in the track to accomodate the car seat.
People do ask us if we're getting a MiniVan. They're half joking because they know I'm such a car nut! We've actually vowed that we're going to try no to get a MiniVan...EVER. We only plan on having 2 kids total, so we think a MiniVan might be excessive.
The long term reliability of Turbos isn't really a factor to me. I think we're long past those days. Before my Prelude I had a 2000 Saab 9-3 that I leased for 3 years. I beat the daylights out of that poor car. I lived in the city and would floor the car merging on to the West Side Highway literally within 2 minutes of starting the car (on very cold winter mornings). Even though I only followed Saab's scheduled maintenance (10K oil changes), I saw no adverse effects of a Turbo in the relatively short time period I had it.
Modern BMWs aren't as bad as many people make them out to be. While they aren't perfect, if you have some problems, many of the dealers have loaner cars with night drop off to accomodate people's needs. Nothing like people getting stranded on the side of the road in the '80s. My parents both drive BMWs. My Dad has an '04 X4 3.0iA Sport Package that will be 3 years old on Valentine's Day. It has over 60,000 miles and has been PERFECT as far as reliability goes. The only trips to the dealer have been 4 times for scheduled maintenance. My Mom drives an '05 530iA that just had it's 2nd birthday. Her car has been in the shop a total of 3 times (all for scheduled maintenance) in 30,000 miles+.
Owning a BMW out of warranty doesn't have to be such a miserable experience. Join BMWCCA and find a good independent mechanic in you area. Many times they charge half what the dealers do and do a great job.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD, 2025 Toyota Camry SE AWD
nobody that knows pretty much anything about cars, or has ever driven one, is ever going to deny that BMW does set the standard particulary in sedans. The problems that BMWs do have - a corollary of Murphy'd law - the more complicated anything is, the more likely it is to break! Whether the much higher prices can be justified, that would be an individual thing.
I'm currently driving a rental G6 V6 with 25K miles and thought I should comment on it here. Overall it's a good car but has serious design flaws. Mine has virtually no headroom! Don't know if the sunroof could have to do with it. But this is serious. I'm a short guy 5-8 but I'll never buy it just based on this alone. Another big issue is the console/radio design. The trip computer is integrated into the radio and I couldn't figure it out how to reset it just by looking at the buttons. And speaking of which there're WAY too many buttons! Also the outside mirrors are TINY. I can't believe how these screaming fatal flaws ever got past the engeers.
On the other hand, the car has very light steering and tight turning circle which I like. The exterior styling is good too.
Just stopped by because I've recently seen the pictures of the outside and inside of the 2008 Chevy Malibu and it certainly looks like a car that will go to the top of this heap rather quickly, assuming the driveline etc is up to snuff. Much better looking than anything else I've seen - Camry, Accord, Fusion or Azera.
unfortunately, past experiences with GM products will likely doom the Malibu for failure (at least relative to the number of Camcords sold), almost regardless of how good it may or may not be. Too many people out there that can remember the last Chevy/GM product they owned that they would even give something called a Malibu a serious look. Sad, but probably true. In terms of perception (and marketability), do you really think it stands a chance against a redesigned 08 Accord?
besides which, this is just a rebadged Aura with a gimmicky 2 tone interior, is it not? People will sit in it, may even like it, and then remember who makes it. Think there are very few buyers out there that will spend 20k+ simply because they think it looks good.
Yeah, that usually happens when the cars are dumped to fleets and rental agencies. At least half the Malibu's I've seen have an Enterprise sticker on the trunk...
So what if it is a restlyed Aura? They fixed some things I don't like about the Aura such as overly ornate chrome trim around the taillights that looks feminine and like something from a Mercury. They also fixed the XM satellite antenna that looks so ugly near the front of the Aura and moved it to where it looks better on the rear of the Malibu roof. Why try to twist improved styling into a negative aspect? I never test drove the previous Malibu because it was so ugly that I knew I would never buy it anyway. I will at least go look at the new Malibu even if I end up buying something else.
I live in the Pacific NW and I found that AWD in my Subaru was nice to have. I never wrecked my Accord b/c of rain, nor lost control. But I have had "moments" through standing water on a highway. And I did have wheelspin many times at the onset of rain after a dryspell, especially if I was at a stop heading up hill. AWD probably isn't critical in moderate climates like mine, but it sure was reassuring when I compared experiences in a FWD car.
In addition, from a performance perspective, AWD was good for cornering as well, even in dry conditions. I was able to accelerate closer to the apex without getting as much understeer. And quick acceleration from a stop was easier since the chance of having power robbing wheelspin was virtually non-existant.
I'm driving a front wheel drive car again, and I've had to make some adjustments. My mazda6 handles quite well in the wet, but in certain instances, AWD would be comforting.
If you need a midsize car with AWD as well as something that won't break the bank, how about the Fusion?
The Passat AWD with Leather costs nearly $36k, and that's before you add things like NAVI or upgraded audio. For a lot of "midsize" buyers, that's just too expensive. It's $2,000 more expensive than vehicles like Acura TL, and that price on the VW doesn't even include the Xenon headlights.
Pricey for something with a VW on the hood. There are cheaper (and if history shows us, more reliable) AWD alternatives to be had in the Subaru and Ford.
The MazdaSpeed 6 is a boutique car. It'll be gone by 2008. Watch.
The MS6 wasn't even supposed to be around for the '07 model year, since the redesigned 6 was supposed to be ready for '07, as well as the the introduction of the MS3, and the tradition that MazdaSpeed models only last about a year. The '07-model MS6s are esentially carry-over '06 models that (from what I've heard) can only be special-ordered. This may be true, since I haven't seen a '07 MS6 in dealer lots yet...
They don't sell enough of them.
All the more reason to get a loaded Grand Touring for cheap. I've heard of owners negotiating prices to $28.5K for a loaded GT. That's a steal!
Well, the Aura is another car that looks like a winner. Point is, GM seems to have finally figured things out. I wish them well. And I've been basically a Ford guy forever. And right now Ford isn't doing much of anything right as far as I can tell, though the Mulally reign is just starting and promises to be better than what preceeded it. As to selling these great new mid-sized cars, there is an interesting article about that I saw yesterday in the Dee-twah News, lemme see if I can find it again.
Not to start another multiple page talk on AWD here's my take. The manufacturers wanted to introduce RWD into their lineups so AWD was added to the RWD lineup for those of us in the hIlLy snow belt. I personally don't want a RWD in the snow here in Montana and I don't want to pay for the added cost of operating and maintaining an AWD. FWD has spoiled me. The days of RWD and Firestone Mud & Snow tires are gone for me.
I wish I would have waited to buy my 6...had I been a bit more patient, getting the mazdaspeed6 for hugely discounted prices (starting at 22k, or 7k off of msrp) would have been great. Of course, I wouldn't be able to get a hatchback or be able to use regular unleaded, but the amount of pull that thing has starting at under 3k rpm is amazing. and AWD would just make the package better. I read that the mazdaspeed6 made the Car and Driver top 10 fastest cars between 25 - 30k. Not that most people in this segment are after fast cars, but if car control is important as it is for me, the speed6 would be a bargain.
You'd pay more for a Legacy than for a Fusion, too. I love the what the Subaru offers though (the interior is the only other one in the market besides Accord that I felt offered top-notch tactile quality and modern-looking design when I was car shopping in Nov. 05).
Think there are very few buyers out there that will spend 20k+ simply because they think it looks good.
Actually, I think a lot of people (outside of Edumunds forums) would buy a car simply because they think it looks good. For many, many people, a car is just an appliance to get them from place to place...especially in the mid-sized sedan market. They sit it in and if's comfortable and looks good, then they buy it. They're not looking at the cars specifications beyond that it's comfortable and looks good. And in reality, for people that drive an average number of miles and get a new car every few years, then any midsized 4dr sedan could meet their needs.
If someone buys a Fusion, Impala, or whatever because of it's looks and they think it's comfortable, for their basic driving needs and uses then it works for them. Even though we in these forums are comparing the detailed specs, in reality most midsized 4dr sedans are all pretty much the same in their basic function, and the differences shrink every year.
Very good point. I bought my Sonata because it had a 4, would get good mileage, had good styling and it gets me from point A to B with little hassle (so far). The price was right too BTW. I got rid of a Lumina I had for 11 years and put 108K on it with no problems.
I did look at Impalas, Fusions, G6s but I only wanted to spend $14K and did not want something with 30,000 miles on it. The Sonata was a good fit for me.
According to our latest (2005) subscriber survey, Japanese and Korean vehicles still have the fewest problems on average: 12 problems per 100 vehicles.
Have to disagree with you. My 2 kids, one now 36 and the other, 32, both bought several Japanese and Korean cars over the past few years. Both are now driving new domestics. The oldest was very enthusiatic about Nissan and Toyota, but, now won't touch them because of problems he had. The younger one also had so many problems with Nissan and Hyundai, that he's reluctant to purchase either brand again. One kid's an engineer, the other is a school teacher, and, both are pretty accomplished "motorheads".
I agree with your comment about the media. I don't think they're biased at all, I think they're just plain stupid. I read the auto reviews, and, most times find them useless because they're simply a reflection of the writer's personal tastes in cars, and, full of misinformation.
I'm in the older demographic you speak of - We're the ones that the domestic boys sold their crap to in the 70's and 80's. .A lot of us now own imports because of that. However, as the domestic boys get their competitive act together, I'm certainly not adverse to giving them another shot at my business. My current fleet consists of both a domestic and an import.
Why don't they finish testing with cars they haven't finished? 2007 Hyundai Elantra, VW Passat, Rabbit, Jetta, Nissan Maxima, Kia Optima, Mitsubishi Galant, and Mazda 6 are all not finished? All these cars have been up on their lists for a while, especially the Optima! Any clue as to why or when they will finish? Next year maybe? When all 2007 new models are sold?
Under the new testing system the vehicle makers do their own frontal crash tests and submit the results to the IIHS. The IIHS has announced that all vehicles are sufficiently good now so this testing is not necessary.
That is not exactly accurate. The IIHS allows automakers to submit their own frontal crash test results only under certain circumstances:
Only redesigned vehicles with immediate predecessors that earned the top rating of good in previous Institute tests are eligible for the verification approach. Substantially redesigned vehicles with significant changes in size, weight, or body style aren't eligible. The Institute will continue testing these vehicles.
So for example, Hyundai was able to submit its own frontal test results for the new Elantra, but the Aura is an all-new model so the IIHS will have to test it.
The IIHS is notoriously slow in doing crash tests and releasing the results. They tend to wait until they've tested a group of vehicles before they release results, e.g. their recent report on small cars.
I liked the part that said the Accord's engine sounded like a turbine at high revs while the others were rattling and buzzing. The 4 cyl Honda engine is a thing of beauty.
The styling mess of this Accord is its biggest shortcoming. Imagine if it had hot styling that didn't send a few hundred thousand fleeing to Mazda6's, Altimas and the pre-2006 Passats who would have otherwise went with the Accord if it was good-looking.
The new 2008 Accord seems like it's going to be better looking. Hopefully, they don't mess up anything else and simply come out with new generation engines and transmissions that will improve both fuel economy and performance and add the features people will expect on any newly redesigned vehicle such as Bluetooth and smartkey keyless starter on at least upper trim models (maybe remote starter and heated washer fluid too like GM), higher grade nicer-looking leather on leather-equipped models, programmable automatic door locks, VSA on 4 cylinder models and auxillary audio input to the stereo and iPod dock on all models.
If I am Honda I'll go conservative on the interior. An evolutionary version of the current model will be more than adequate. What I don't want to see is something like Civic's futuristic interior design happens on the 2008 Accord.
There are so many options, the chances of anyone buying a car with the just the options they do want, and none of the options they don't want, are very slim. There are just too many people, and they all want something different. For instance, I would like power leather seats, VSA, and V6 engine, but I don't need heated washer fluid, remote starter, or audio plug inputs. So at least one of us, will be disappointed. I have come to grips with the fact that I will have to pay extra, for options I don't want, to get the options I do want. That's life.
Comments
Yes, drums in the back will still stop a car - no doubt. I for one, prefer the four wheel disk brakes, and if the car comes with anti-lock or is part of a pkg. deal, will opt for anti-lock brakes next time. To date, I only had one car with anti-lock brakes. They were pretty poor, but then again it was on a '92 Achieva. I assume today we have better equipment available.
-Loren
Someone mentioned not buying a car without ABS. In my case, I'd always opt FOR Anti-Lock brakes, but the 1996 that I have w/o them was a gift (given to me when i turned 15), so i had no choice in the matter.
I realize discs are more resistant to fade, but with my use of the car in Alabama (a hilly, but not strenuous area on brakes) they just aren't necessary for my type of driving.
With these new FWD cars, most of the work is done up front -- actually all too much weight on up front.
-Loren
It should be noted, that when I had the wreck, i was 17, and had never locked-up my brakes at extended-length before. I knew how to pulse them (and had several times in slick road conditions because my old tires were prone to slide - my new Bridgestone Potenza G009s are 200% better in this regard). When i had the wreck, the roads were dry, my adrenaline pumped, and my inexperience showed by me skidding so long that I flat spotted all four tires to the point of the car vibrating over 40 MPH.
With these new FWD cars, most of the work is done up front
More reason that I don't feel strongly in do-or-die with discs versus drums. I'll take discs, I know they are superior in many regards, but I wouldn't pay extra to get them, and that's that. If I lived in a place which caused me to ride my brakes heavily (mountains) I would certainly feel differently.
People do ask us if we're getting a MiniVan. They're half joking because they know I'm such a car nut! We've actually vowed that we're going to try no to get a MiniVan...EVER. We only plan on having 2 kids total, so we think a MiniVan might be excessive.
The long term reliability of Turbos isn't really a factor to me. I think we're long past those days. Before my Prelude I had a 2000 Saab 9-3 that I leased for 3 years. I beat the daylights out of that poor car. I lived in the city and would floor the car merging on to the West Side Highway literally within 2 minutes of starting the car (on very cold winter mornings). Even though I only followed Saab's scheduled maintenance (10K oil changes), I saw no adverse effects of a Turbo in the relatively short time period I had it.
Modern BMWs aren't as bad as many people make them out to be. While they aren't perfect, if you have some problems, many of the dealers have loaner cars with night drop off to accomodate people's needs. Nothing like people getting stranded on the side of the road in the '80s. My parents both drive BMWs. My Dad has an '04 X4 3.0iA Sport Package that will be 3 years old on Valentine's Day. It has over 60,000 miles and has been PERFECT as far as reliability goes. The only trips to the dealer have been 4 times for scheduled maintenance. My Mom drives an '05 530iA that just had it's 2nd birthday. Her car has been in the shop a total of 3 times (all for scheduled maintenance) in 30,000 miles+.
Owning a BMW out of warranty doesn't have to be such a miserable experience. Join BMWCCA and find a good independent mechanic in you area. Many times they charge half what the dealers do and do a great job.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD, 2025 Toyota Camry SE AWD
On the other hand, the car has very light steering and tight turning circle which I like. The exterior styling is good too.
Just stopped by because I've recently seen the pictures of the outside and inside of the 2008 Chevy Malibu and it certainly looks like a car that will go to the top of this heap rather quickly, assuming the driveline etc is up to snuff. Much better looking than anything else I've seen - Camry, Accord, Fusion or Azera.
Top of what heap? Certainly not the one where the CamCord reigns. Probably will pass the Fusion in sales tho.
Yeah, that usually happens when the cars are dumped to fleets and rental agencies. At least half the Malibu's I've seen have an Enterprise sticker on the trunk...
Why try to twist improved styling into a negative aspect?
I never test drove the previous Malibu because it was so ugly that I knew I would never buy it anyway.
I will at least go look at the new Malibu even if I end up buying something else.
Hmm...rebadged version of a car with a two-tone interior. Now who can tell if you are talking about the Mercury Milan or the Chevy Malibu?
In addition, from a performance perspective, AWD was good for cornering as well, even in dry conditions. I was able to accelerate closer to the apex without getting as much understeer. And quick acceleration from a stop was easier since the chance of having power robbing wheelspin was virtually non-existant.
I'm driving a front wheel drive car again, and I've had to make some adjustments. My mazda6 handles quite well in the wet, but in certain instances, AWD would be comforting.
The Passat AWD with Leather costs nearly $36k, and that's before you add things like NAVI or upgraded audio. For a lot of "midsize" buyers, that's just too expensive. It's $2,000 more expensive than vehicles like Acura TL, and that price on the VW doesn't even include the Xenon headlights.
Pricey for something with a VW on the hood. There are cheaper (and if history shows us, more reliable) AWD alternatives to be had in the Subaru and Ford.
The MazdaSpeed 6 is a boutique car. It'll be gone by 2008. Watch. They don't sell enough of them.
The MS6 wasn't even supposed to be around for the '07 model year, since the redesigned 6 was supposed to be ready for '07, as well as the the introduction of the MS3, and the tradition that MazdaSpeed models only last about a year. The '07-model MS6s are esentially carry-over '06 models that (from what I've heard) can only be special-ordered. This may be true, since I haven't seen a '07 MS6 in dealer lots yet...
They don't sell enough of them.
All the more reason to get a loaded Grand Touring for cheap. I've heard of owners negotiating prices to $28.5K for a loaded GT. That's a steal!
As to selling these great new mid-sized cars, there is an interesting article about that I saw yesterday in the Dee-twah News, lemme see if I can find it again.
Yeah, but it'll be well worth it though...
Actually, I think a lot of people (outside of Edumunds forums) would buy a car simply because they think it looks good. For many, many people, a car is just an appliance to get them from place to place...especially in the mid-sized sedan market. They sit it in and if's comfortable and looks good, then they buy it. They're not looking at the cars specifications beyond that it's comfortable and looks good. And in reality, for people that drive an average number of miles and get a new car every few years, then any midsized 4dr sedan could meet their needs.
If someone buys a Fusion, Impala, or whatever because of it's looks and they think it's comfortable, for their basic driving needs and uses then it works for them. Even though we in these forums are comparing the detailed specs, in reality most midsized 4dr sedans are all pretty much the same in their basic function, and the differences shrink every year.
BTW, Mazda6 is at 110 cf and just makes it to the other side of their dividing line.
I did look at Impalas, Fusions, G6s but I only wanted to spend $14K and did not want something with 30,000 miles on it. The Sonata was a good fit for me.
According to our latest (2005) subscriber survey, Japanese and Korean vehicles still have the fewest problems on average: 12 problems per 100 vehicles.
Why doesn't Honda/Toyota get bashed for using the same plaforms? :confuse:
One word. Interior.
That statement doesn't make a lot of sense.
Today's domestics (SOME of them)might have good long term reliability. We'll have to wait a while to see.
Historically that hasn't been the case.
I agree with your comment about the media. I don't think they're biased at all, I think they're just plain stupid. I read the auto reviews, and, most times find them useless because they're simply a reflection of the writer's personal tastes in cars, and, full of misinformation.
I'm in the older demographic you speak of - We're the ones that the domestic boys sold their crap to in the 70's and 80's. .A lot of us now own imports because of that. However, as the domestic boys get their competitive act together, I'm certainly not adverse to giving them another shot at my business. My current fleet consists of both a domestic and an import.
Regards:
Oldengineer
It's the side and rear testing that it does now.
Only redesigned vehicles with immediate predecessors that earned the top rating of good in previous Institute tests are eligible for the verification approach. Substantially redesigned vehicles with significant changes in size, weight, or body style aren't eligible. The Institute will continue testing these vehicles.
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/frontal_test_info.html
So for example, Hyundai was able to submit its own frontal test results for the new Elantra, but the Aura is an all-new model so the IIHS will have to test it.
The IIHS is notoriously slow in doing crash tests and releasing the results.
Not really when its an Accord. How much wider will the margin be when the 08 model appears?
Imagine if it had hot styling that didn't send a few hundred thousand fleeing to Mazda6's, Altimas and the pre-2006 Passats who would have otherwise went with the Accord if it was good-looking.
The new 2008 Accord seems like it's going to be better looking. Hopefully, they don't mess up anything else and simply come out with new generation engines and transmissions that will improve both fuel economy and performance and add the features people will expect on any newly redesigned vehicle such as Bluetooth and smartkey keyless starter on at least upper trim models (maybe remote starter and heated washer fluid too like GM), higher grade nicer-looking leather on leather-equipped models, programmable automatic door locks, VSA on 4 cylinder models and auxillary audio input to the stereo and iPod dock on all models.
I think that's what Honda will do. Maybe add a diesel option for 09. They can't get too cute and take the Accord into AcuraLand.