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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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The Sonata is not a bad sedan. Actually, it is not even close to one. Can you find me one review, that specifically states that the Sonata has poor build quality? The Sonata has been praised for its huge improvement.
I love my Accord, I think it's the best sedan for me. I respect its competitors. I may actually buy a Sonata as a second car.
The resale value issue is one I won't address in depth, as most mags like CR use a percentage of value held, not $ amounts.
The Sonata is great on paper, where it loses me is in the personal preferences; the feel of certain things. It adds up to a nice car option/feature wise, but not as nice and finished a package as my Accord. Just my own opinion.
Hyundia will pass Honda for sales in the U.S. in the next 2-3 years....
That sure is big talk scape2...I guess we'll have to wait and see, but with Honda having record sales after record sales, I wouldn't look for Honda to go away, or to the bottom of the market anytime soon.
Consumers are learning very quickly that reliability is virtually a non-issue in these days of producing a vehicle.
Interesting...I personally would prefer more reliable over less reliable...making it a big issue to me.
The problem is that a percentage point does not correspond to a fixed value across differently priced vehicles. A one percent drop off an $18k car costs $180 whereas a one percent drop off a $23k car costs $230. Therefore, in my opinion it's better to use dollars because that is a normalized apples to apples comparison regardless of what the car cost.
When the magazines talk about about percentages of retained value, they are essentially implying that all the cars a consumer will compare are close in price and thus the difference in the value of the percentages is negligible. However, in reality a $5k difference on cars that cost in the high $10k's to the high $20k's results in differences between percent values that are significant.
Absolutely. Sure the Sonata is a nice package priced right. But Accords (even with a dated design) still sell well. Honda will hold or lower the prices on em - much like BMW has done in the past - and make them more attractive. They just won't sit around and lose sales without making a change on price (Sonata's only edge). Plus Hyundai will never live up to the reputation Honda has earned over the years. Older folks who never considered buying a foreign car would definitely pick a CamCord before they'd go for anything Hyundai. Younger buyers probably a little more open to 'em.
That is good news for the "cursive" H brand, though. They are certainly deserving of some awards; how about biggest improvement!?
If Hyundai one day could shed its past images, I would not be surprised, in a few short years, the automaker catches up to Honda and Toyota, at least closes the gap, especially within its volume sellers, such as the Sonata, or the Elantra. Of course, the image overhaul is a long road, and one that is difficult to overcome; however, recent developments from Hyundai has them truly making great strides to change the perception from consumers.
Resale value, another item Hyundai is working hard to turn around. Historically, Hyundai has been criticized for its poor resale value; but that trend is slowly changing – Tucson has held great values, if I recall (and the same should apply to the new Sonata, as well as other new products currently on market). To tie-in with the above, perception is closely associated, among other factors desired (to achieve adequate resale values). At the very least, Hyundai needs to continue to build quality cars (which is something they have been doing); and in turn, increases of demand, better perception from consumers, and along with other factors coupled, those will help to drive the automaker’s resale value.
As far as Hyundai’s reliability goes, especially the Sonata, I can say with confidence it is very much on par with the Camry and Accord, perhaps even better. Based on well-known studies released, I recall the 05 Sonata was the most reliable car, per CR. Also, as far as quality and vehicle dependability go, Sonata has taken the top spot (or top three) in the midsize category on more than one occasion within the past few years, per JD Power studies of IQS and VDS. On that note, I’d hope the ‘06 Sonata will continue such trend.
By no means the above studies are 100% accurate (since it is almost impossible to collect data from every customer), but with a more than adequate sample collected, and within the grand scheme of things, it is reasonable to conclude, and plausible to make a case for the Sonata; certainly in the areas of value, features, safety, reliability, and comfort. At the same time, Camry and Accord should not be short-changed; each crowns and excels within their areas of excellence, respectively.
They still have some interior quality issues to work out to be considered "just as good" in that respect. In features for the dollar the Sonata IS better though.
Interesting, my age is showing. I remember hearing the same comments about the Japanese cars compared to American and European cars many years ago.
Well, as a person just shy of his 60th birthday, I guess I qualify as an "older folk." I've been buying "foreign" cars for longer than some of the posters on this forum have been alive, and I assure you I can ascertain quality and value with the best of them. The current line of Hyundai products takes a back seat to no one in its market segment. Those of us who are buying Hyundai's "now," are the same folks who bought Toyota's in the '60's, and Honda's in the '70's - we know quality and value when we see it, and are not moved by the perceptions of the masses. The mentality that refused to accept Honda, Nissan, and Toyota as better choices over Ford, GM, & VW decades ago is analogous to the one refusing to accept Hyundai today.
that the Hyundai strikes me as my choice over the CamCords. I recently bought the 2006 LX Sonata, and although I only have a few miles on it I am quite well pleased with it over those others. I only have 200+ miles at this time, and am very happy with it.
I doubt any four of these automakers (Honda, Toyota, Ford, Hyundai) will go away in the next 20 years, but with someone laying lots of people offf lately and a lowered status in the US business world (based on what I've seen on CNBC and various newspapers, not a Honda-owner's upward tilted nose), my guess is Ford will be the one who has to cut itself down somewhat.
Oh, and for you wanting Honda to go away, I wouldn't count on it for the basic fact that for month number 13 in a row, Honda has had record sales numbers.
Get off the world-domination wagon and back into your Escape. It'll be ok. All of these carmakers bring something different to the table, with a different spin on their midsize car. Hyundai and Ford bring pure value in the options per dollar equation. Toyota and Honda bring a long-standing tradition of reliability, with Toyota being pure "comfort food for the road" as a motor trend writer put it. The Honda keeps a sporty spin on things with a firmer suspension and some of the best steering in the business, not to mention class leading fuel economy.
There isn't a wrong way to do things, just different ways.
I don't believe this is an accurate statement. Those who refuse to accept Hyundai today are doing so because Hyundai has a history of producing crappy cars and cars with low resale value. It takes awhile to lose that rep. Another reason your argument is not analogous is because those that don't accept Hyundai today are choosing Toyotas and Hondas that last over 100,000 miles with little to no problems. How is that "not choosing quality and value". The same cannot be said for those that went with Ford, GM and VW back in the day.
For one, I once owned a Honda Accord. I just could not see what the big deal is about these vehicles? I even had my share of problems with this vehicle. Albiet they were small problems but still, they were problems. Problems that caused me to bring the vehicle to the dealer for the day sometimes. There is a huge stigma in favor of Honda's so called "legendary reliability". Get out on the net my friend and you will find plenty of peeved of Honda owners. Go to Google and type in "Honda problems" Wow! what an eye opener. You feel I am a Honda basher, a Honda hater. Nope, Honda makes decent vehicles. With the internet you cannot hide issues and problems anylonger. In my opinion Honda is average.
What is this "world domination" stuff?? :confuse:
Besides, most vehicles today make it to 100,000 miles with very few issues. Reliability is fastly becoming a non-issue with the production practices of today from all manufacturers. New buzz word is "refinement" in the auto world today.
Lets see, a person buys a Hyundai/Ford/VW for $15,000. Another person buys a Honda/Toyota for $20,000 both have the same options.
Both vehicles make it 150,000 miles with no problems. Who got the better value?
That was the propaganda spread by the big American car manufacturers to get you to buy American, but it wasn't the reality. Eventually, the public discovered the truth about Japanese reliability and here we are today.
"Lets see, a person buys a Hyundai/Ford/VW for $15,000. Another person buys a Honda/Toyota for $20,000 both have the same options. Both vehicles make it 150,000 miles with no problems. Who got the better value?"
The same people that say they owned a Ford or VW for 150,000 trouble free miles are the same ones saying they get 10 mpg over the EPA estimates while driving 80 on the highway. 99% of the time, it's fiction.
Secondly, trade in value would nullify any difference (which is usually less than $5,000 as well. Neither Ford nor VW can undercut THAT much for a comparably equipped car.)
I couldn't disagree more. I can buy a comparably equipped new Corolla for less today than I bought my 1997 Corolla for when it was one year old....and I got a pretty good deal then.
Across the board, Toyotas have increased in price by less than the rate of inflation. Just because the availability and price of their luxury options has gone up shouldn't take away from the fact that today's offerings are safer and more reliable than past models while still costing essentially the same (or less when you account for inflation) unless you go crazy with unnecessary options.
'fraid not. I worked in the auto parts and service industry in the 70's and 80's and I can honestly say that Toyota and Honda had nowhere near the reliabilty or dependabilty they enjoy today (and their parts and service were waaayyy expensive at that time). They learned and improved, but they had to, just like Hyundai is doing now. That's not to say that the domestics of that time were any better, they just didn't learn and remember the lessons as well as Toyota and Honda did.
When you said fall...I dunno why. I guess I pictured a big, echoing voice laughing after that. I'm just wierd like that. No harm intended.
I don't know what companies are "hiding" their faults. Consumer Reports have been exposing faults in carmakers for decades now. In their opinion, Hondas continue to be above average. So goes my opinion too; I'm part of their results...Above average reliability. Sure, we've had that creaky passenger seat in our Odyssey, and the heater knob that broke in our 1993 Accord (the twisting mechanism was actually too tight from factory, the dealership loosened it and replaced the knob, free of charge.
I have a rather busy day, and a class in ten minutes so I can't respond to everything here, but long story short is, while I don't claim that Honda is the MOST reliable car out there, it sure seems better than many other carmakers.
Maybe I can catch up fully later.
thegrad
Moreover, if the new Sonata is proven to be as or closely reliable as Accord, who can say for sure that their resale values will be hugely different as they are today?
Buying a car with a high resale value == Becoming an unpaid salesman or saleswoman for the manufacture.
No competitor to Toyota can offer a fully loaded version of their Camry counterpart for that price either. I don't understand your point. That's like saying you can get an Accent for less than a loaded Corolla. Well, of course you can. You're not comparing the same class of vehicle.
Not to mention, you are limiting your definition of value to just two options. That's probably not the best way to go about it. Who bases their definition of value on anything less than the whole picture?
When cars of equal quality, costing thousands less than T&H, their value decreases in the eyes of astute buyers. Not only has Hyundai offered us a high quality alternative for less, but have also created price competition for T&H.
$19,800 is the invoice price for a Sonata GLS V6 with no extra options. Good luck getting that car for $16K. Only way you're doing that is if they give you $3K less for your trade-in than it is worth.
This is your definition of comparable?
You make it seem as if a base GLS V6 Sonata will provide all the features of the Camry XLE V6 plus SAC and stability control, but obviously, this is not the case. If you want parity, and you add the SAC/VSC to the Camry, maybe we should add all the above features to the Sonata. Meaning an LX V6.
Your pricing is also a bit off. In the real world, most people arent going to be able to get a Sonata GLS V6, even without options, for anywhere near 16-17K. FWIW, a Sonata GLS V6, WITHOUT A SINGLE option, in the Philly area is shown at a selling price of $18,631 in on the carsdirect.com website. A far cry from 16-17K that you claim (and you threw in a moonroof to boot!)
~alpha
invoice 19,831 (includes destination charges)
cash to any customer 1,000
cash to current hyundai owner 1,000
finance with HMFC 1,000
price before tax+lic+fees 16,831
I felt the same way about the non-styling of the Sonata. Looks like an Altima from the mid 90s. Very plain. Yea the Sonata is a good car, but the lack of any flair keeps it out of contention in the style category. As for feel....what feel? Not an enthusiast's car like a Honda or Mazda. Sonata's biggest appeal is price. Period.
Camry XLE with VSC, side airbags, and alloys (all standard on the Sonata GLS): Invoice $22,272 - $500 rebate = $21,772.
Sonata GLS with Premium Package (moonroof, power seat, Homelink): Invoice $19,740 - $2500 rebates = $17,240.
I have seen the Sonata GLS with Premium Package picked up for less than invoice, but maybe the Camry can be had for less than invoice also, since it's not long for this world.
About a $4500 difference. For $4500, I am glad to ask my front passenger to use the manual seat adjusters, rotate the temperature dial to my liking, and insert CDs (or just use an MP3 disk with a few hundred songs on it). (P.S. The Sonata GLS does have foglamps standard.)
FWIW, the difference between the Camry XLE V6 and the Sonata LX with Premium Package is also about $4500, based on invoice prices with rebates. Then you wouldn't have to live without the auto climate control, leather, or CD changer. You'd still have to make do without a 4-way power passenger seat and a rear sunshade. Maybe the better power and handling of the Sonata would make up for it.
PERIOD!
PERIOD!
I'd rather have a better interior. I don't drive on top of the car, I drive in it
*But I agree, I think the Sonata's exterior is attractive. I really like the side view.
The Camry's interior is really boring, IMO--especially the center stack. The gauges are nice and clear, though. I'd take the Sonata's interior any day over the Camry's.
The Accord has nice gauges and a nicer center stack than the Sonata--although I like the center-stack controls of the Sonata better; they are very simple, easy to use. But I actually like the lighter interior colors of the Sonata vs. the tomb-like black of the Accord. Personal taste. I saw an Accord EX with nav at the auto show and the dash looked very spartan (esp. in black), much more so than I remembered. Have they taken some of the woodgrain trim out for 2006?
I agree the Camry's interior is bland, but I still find the XLE and SE to be more stylish. The LE is very bland though.
I chose the Accord's black interior. I really love the mettalic accents they add on the EX models. I didn't like the wood grain they had on the 03-05 models with the beige interior though.
I believe they haven't taken out some wood grain. They changed the design though, it's an improvement IMO.
They had the new wood grain in C&D's midsize comparison. I found it very attractive.
Click here
I really wish Hyundai would add in LED gauges. I believe the 08 refresh will add blue interior lighting. That is a nice change.
Backy, you know I dont like to bring incentives into the picture because especially for Toyota, they're regional. And if youre going to bring incentives into the picture, why not add a discount factor for depreciation/resale?
And your comment about the Hyundai LX V6 accelerating and handling better than the Camry... well, its pretty certain that the 07 Camry will trounce the Sonata given its similar weight, 33 extra horses, and added cog. Handling remains to be seen as well... but both MT and C/D have lauded the chassis tuning of the new SE (though obviously C/D damned the vehicle for Toyota's overly sensitive VSC).
~alpha
I bought my Mazda6 at a steal from a dealer that was trying to get rid of the old model year and make room for the new one. So basically I got a 2004 at the end of 2004 for a steal. The dealer soaked up a lot of the depreciation cost due to the low cost. I am only down $3K in resale value, going on 2 years of ownership. Not bad at all. I think the Sonata may be able to do this as well, except for the fact that it isn't year end discounts that are driving the price down, but HUGE incentives that have been on the car since its introduction. I mean 3,500 is a lot on a car that is already low priced. I think Hyundai is putting itself in a whole because resale value is going to be low and the newer model years are not going to be able to sell at sticker. Imagine that a person is willing to sell their year used car at 1,500 under what they paid for it. Would you rather have a brand new model or a year used that is a whopping $5K cheaper? I think we all have to admit that Hyundai's strategy is to build market share and they are obtaining that but the cars will hurt in resale value because of it.
Question for you alpha and anyone else. For anyone that has seen the 07 Camry in person. How do those optitron instrumentations look in person? They reminds me of my alarm clock and I really hope that isn't how it looks in person.
The new Camry is much improved over the old one and certainly has more power--although the Azera is in the same range for about the same money. But the '07 Camry isn't out yet, so I think it is fair to compare cars that are actually available to the public, and to include in those comparisons the rebates that are widely available.
As for discussing depreciation, I am surprised you would want to bring that into the picture because A) we have no idea how the much-improved '06 Sonata will fare re depreciation;