These are family cars we are talking about right? The fact is, the Accord performs just as well as the larger displacement competition. What I want is passing power, i'm not planning on drag racing my family car. And the engine is smoother, and more fuel efficient than any of them.
Don't forget about the poor slide off driver's seat, weak fuel economy, cabin noise from the gas tank, styling from the mid 90s.....and that slanted H thing.
At least the giveaway pricing does mitigate the sullied Hyundai reputation of the past.
I don't think any company is better at building engines than Honda. They build some of the best small engines (generators, lawn mowers) all the way up to championship winning engines in IRL. When the next Accord has the 3.2 or 3.5 liter engines, with cylinder de activation (like the Odyssey does) It will leave all the competiters in the dust again in 2008. More power than all of them, and better fuel economy besides. What will they do then? They might as well give up the fight. Do you know that the Honda Odyssey gets better fuel economy than a 4cyl. Grand Caravan? If Honda can get 28 mpg with the Odyssey, just imagine what it could achieve with that technology in the Accord. Honda is not just going to sit on there laurels (butts) here. They will just up the ante again.
Hyundai is not giving away the Sonata, just like other automakers, they are making a good amount of profit per each car sold. Just because the Sonata's value pricing is lower than Camry and Accord, it does not mean they are not making any money.
Can you clarify what cabin noise from the gas tank is? To the best of my knowledge, the Sonata has one of the quitest cabin around; even at full throttle. The Edmunds test ranked Sonata's cabin as the quitest in two out of the three categories (Db @ Idle & Db @ 70mph), Db at full throttle, the Sonata is only off by 0.4
Fuel Economy from Edmunds' test: Sonata 19.6; Camry 20.4; Accord 21.4; not great but also not weak by any stretch of the imagination...
Styling is very subjective, and the slanted H has a lot of meanings, which I just read from another forum. Personally, I like it better than the boxy H.
I agree with you on Honda engine technology. After all, Honda is primarily an engine company, who just happens to make cars, and other consumer products. That being said, I get 26MPG on my 1994 Dodge Grand Caravan ES (3.3L OHV V6) with the A/C on during the summer on trips. No too shabby for an old minivan with over 160K on the clock - and, the original 4-speed ECT I might add.
Oh, and the "slated H thing" mentioned by a previous poster when discussing the "cons" of the Sonata, I believe it's supposed to represent the company (Hyundai) and a customer shaking hands. At least it implies more than just the first letter of the name of the company. And for that matter, what the heck is Toyota's and Mazda's current logos supposed to represent?
please comment about the accords brakes, its that good right?
and not that i'm bashing honda because their engines are meant to be on the efficient side, but as in more power and alot of technical aspects the new nissan engines are better. The new VQ series engines pull so smoothly and faster , the accord feels slow and trying.
I was a bit startled to see at my Honda dealership the wall of unsolicited notes, letters and email documenting so many 3-20 year old Honda vehicles that had between 100,000 and 500,000 miles and the absolute delight of their owners. That kind of quality/reliability/value correspondence from customers is almost impossible to duplicate with any other auto company. The wall is full of the testimony of customers about the Hondas and the dealership that can't be bought. I noted that in the notes that many of the Hondas were on their 3rd and 4th owner. No wonder the Hondas/Acuras in the used car department were so much higher priced than the other car makes. SUCCESS breeds SUCCESS and for at least now Honda seems to have the "right stuff." I would imagine that the Toyota dealership has the same type of wall.
Styling is very subjective, and the slanted H has a lot of meanings, which I just read from another forum. Personally, I like it better than the boxy H.
Funny thing is, I see Hyundai's all over with "Boxy" H license plates on the front of them (trying to fool people). But I have yet to see a Honda with a "slanted H" symbol on it. I don't think it has ever happened. No one with a Honda, is trying to impersonate a Hyundai driver.
saw a black one yesterday and i think this car has the best bad led , its so bright. The design is also flawless, two of my buddies were like did you see that new mercedez, no new infinity? but it was the new azera
hyundai understands the art of desining cars exteriorly(european expertise)
All these discussions about the Sonata, despite mostly being nothing but bashful, puts everything in perspective about the attention the Sonata and Hyundai have gotten these past few years, and the vast improvement at a pace not many people would have thought years ago. Ironic, isn't it
The sonata is not a perfect mid size sedan, but it does not have faults major enough to disappoint the consumer
Who's to say? Every consumer is different. I was car shopping, and plan on keeping my car a long time. The interior of the Accord feels like it will stand the test of time in both design and quality. I could say neither about the Sonata, and that WAS enough to point me away from a V6 Sonata and into an I-4 Accord for similar $ (I could've gotten either).
American cars, when they all were built in the USA, changed model years periodically and they kept some model names for a long, long time. When was the first Impala ..1958? The BelAire was the same car at a different trim level, just like Accord LX, EX & whatever. Ford has had Fairlane's & 500's off and on for decades. Chrysler has had the LeBaron & New Yorker. (Watch for a Newport in the next few years.) Years ago car manufacturers differentiated by by model name, now they uses trim levels...GTC, GTX, EX, LX, etc.
The first Accords were junk. I was at a pro Golf Tourney in Hartford when the Acura first came out. I forget the year (maybe about 1986) but think the month was August. There was a rain delay. We went to the vendors' tent to see the displays. The guy at the "brand new Acura" booth told us that Honda did market research and found the Americans would not pay, maybe it was $13,000, for a Honda but they might pay that amount for an up scale Japanese car. Bingo! No up scale Honda. The Acura was born.
Several years later people were still buying Acura's not realizing they had a Honda. Some were vehement that they did not have a Honda...until challenged to open the hood and saw "Honda" on the engine.
If you went to Japan until just recently, there were no Acura models- they were all just badged the "Honda Legend" or whatever. Likewise, the Lexus brand was only recently introduced in Japan- they had many of the same models (maybe not the SUV's with gasoline at $6/gallon in Japan going way back), but just called them Toyotas. Just shows what lengths the Asian manufacturers will do to crack the foreign markets. Very export driven and it works.
they are making a good amount of profit per each car sold
How do you know that? Hyundai is a Korean company and adheres to Korean reporting methods (whatever they are) in Korean currency. And from that you deduce they are making a good amount of profit? I don't think we'll ever know. The SK government subsidizes and supports Hyundai through a million different ways that I doubt even Hyundai knows how to eliminate intercompany transactions in their financials. They could be bleeding money, especially with the Hyundai chairman disappearing amid financial controversy. Whatever the case, pegging the Sonata at giveaway prices earns them market share for the future, which they deperately need to overcome their past 'transgressions'. It all makes sense cause they're building a car now that is acceptable.
i had a 1981 accord as my first car...it was an auto 4 door sedan. i don't know what you mean by "junk"; it had more than 200k miles on it before i sold it. the guy i sold it to had it past 230k before i quit keeping in touch with him. during the time i had it, i had to replace an alternator, battery and tires. and at that age, i would sometimes go 7-10k between oil changes. hardly ever checked the oil either. yeah, not too responsible. but thank goodness it was a honda. great first car; i could be stupid and get away with it without having to pay a lot in maintenance or upkeep. after this car, bought another accord. same experience. many friends who have bought hondas (lawnmowers, generators, civics, accords, elements, integras, legends...etc) have been very happy with them. in fact i can't name someone i know personally that has had a serious problem with one.
i didn't buy a honda this time. but i will always consider them (barring some major screw ups by them) when i buy a car or am asked to recommend a car by a friend or family member.
their designs are thoughtful and well executed. really the one thing that i would criticize in honda's design is sometimes their use of colors in their interior. but generally their designs are proportional, have good balance, and put controls in places that make sense.
really, it's what i like about Japenese design: simple, elegant, functional, and conveys a sense of peace and ease. this is what good architecture conveys, what a nicely designed room attemps, and what makers of fine clothes strive for. design matters. why do stores spend billions of dollars redisigning their stores? or car companies change their design every few years? i think that's why so many magazines and reviewers have placed the accord as a benchmark that it's competitors attempt to achieve. being too dismissive of what makes the accord a great car or honda a great company is in my view shortsighted. just like some of the sonataholics accuse me of being for not saying that the sonata is the only choice worthy of consideration. thing is, honda earned my respect over decades. hyundai has done well for a few years now? good for them. i hope they keep it up. and if they keep it up maybe after another decade or so i will have the same faith in hyundai as i do honda. but not until then.
Speculate all you would like to, I can tell you as much as Hyundai is not giving Sonatas away, and a good amount of profit is made on each car sold. Hyundai is not just a car company - FYI, they are a conglomerate. As the biggest conglomerate in South Korea, they have resources coming from various areas so they are not exactly short on cash flows, and continues to improve on its position despite the Won currenty remaining strong.
On a somewhat related note, the new Alab. plant, where the new Sonata and the upcoming Santa Fe are built, is very interesting. The automation of the plant is beyond belief; the capacity calls for 300K vehicles annually, while using less than half of workers than the typical plant.
By the time you got the '81 Accord, the Accord had been made for several years. I thought they first came out in '74, someone else said they were introduced for '73.
Whatever the year, they were junk at first (my point earlier) and rapidly improved. 7 or 8 years can see big changes in cars.
Most everyone will agree that they are a top notch car today.
I'm a hater? Because i think the Sonata has an ugly interior? The H looks like a Honda H on crack. Could never get used to it, but you know what i really dislike about Hyundai, besides the name? The fact that Hyundai and all South Korean companies get financial handouts from their Govmnt. None of those conglomerates would exist if not for help from their Govmnt. What happened to 'fair' trade? I thought that was illegal. Americans go out and rush to buy these cheap Korean vehicles when their sole aim is to knock out American manufacturing prowess. Go ahead and buy a Hyundia or a Kia. Me, it matters where my money goes. If I had such a hankering to buy foreign I would buy a Mazda (controlled by Ford), or a Suzuki (most cars are GMDAT-Korean owned by GM), or even Honda, which is bigger here than in Japan. Toyota is out, Hyundai and Kia are out, Nissan is out (less reliable than GM), all the German cars are out (less reliable than GM). I could never bring myself to say I bought a Hyundai. Not gonna happen. OK, maybe I am a hater :P
Sounds like you're the one speculating about Hyundai's "profit". I doubt they're giving them away, but the margins on them are surely slim. I agree they are trying to buy markey share, but you need a decent car to do that. The Sonata is a decent car.
If Hyundai will sell an American a Sonata for a low price, at the expense of its own people (the SK government basically), why should we care? We're not eating our pets.
The Toyota CEO should be worried about Hyundai, it doesnt matter if Hyundai loses money on cars, needs money, etc The South Korean Govmnt will give them whatever they want. Americans have shown they have no loyalty to their own car companies, they have also shown they could care less if our manufacturing base is flushed down the toilet, all they want is a cheap car. Hyundai has it made in this country.
Hyundai is like GM of the us. Without GM the us economy would spiral downhill, thats why even though they should have been on a verge of bankrupt the last couple of years the gov't has this company do whatever necessary to stay alive , such as borderline unethical firings of employees, cutting benefits too suddenly and drastically, receiving gov't loan extensions etc .In comparison, even though there is all this scandal stuff going on now, hyundai will never go bankrupt and its system will keep moving. And unlike GM at least hyundai(with loans etc) has stepped up to want to one of the tops auto builders and they are proving it. I don't know where i heard this rumor, but apparently hyundai has quite a number more research and development centers disperesed all over the world(now greater than hondayota), opening up new plants in europe, russia, china before your very eyes(hondayota hurting in the chinese market). Like i stated the threat is real.
One of my clients had a gold or beige Accord the first year they came out. He dumped it after 2 or 3 years because of rust problems and dissatisfaction with the 2 speed automatic. I'm thinking the first Accord was barely larger than the Civic of it's time...maybe about the size of today's Mini Cooper.
Honda/Accord came a long way in a short time. My brother had an '85 Accord and it was fine until something went wrong. Couldn't replace a headlamp bulb without getting a new headlamp assembly. Broken radio antennea required disassembling the right side of the dashboard. There was also a problem with brake pads & rotors on his '85.
Gas milage was good & it had plenty of pep. Steering was too "light."
I agree honda builds a great car. I've owned three and my family has owned five more, all accords 85-03. Only minor problems with all of them, but I did notice a drop in the feel of quality and fun to drive factor. This is something that is hard to explain to someone who hasn't owned several generations of the car. Last week I went into the city with my cousins 91 accord with 200k miles on it and it didn't have a squeak or rattle in the car. When I test drove a new Accord in november (my 1st choice) it already had a few dash rattles and a noisy ride. That did not stop my purchase. the dealers aditude and pricing did $19,900 for LX thats to much for a car I was not that impressed with and was buying out of brand loyalty for the most part. Having test drove all the cars in this class I bought my 2nd choice a Sonata for over $4000 less. I'm very happy with car so far and time will tell if it holds up,but coming from a family of auto mechanics The general opinions are the car seems to be screwed together well.Time will tell if I'm a trend setter or a chump but I'm sure this group will let me know right now.
Accord History: Accord named after Accord, New York - in the foothills of the Catskills. First Honda dealerships were without any repair facilities, they used US dealerships for repairs. the Kingston, NY Chevy dealer was bragging to me that he bought a Honda dealership for his son -- $25,000. Even then the Honda name was a positive one and owners seemed to love their cars. A lot of auto at a cheap price compared to the poor quality of autos that the USA was manufacturing with the Un-American Workers (UAW). An example -- Ford autos were being sabatoged by the UAW so badly in Mahwah, NJ that Ford just closed the plant in absolute disgust, not an industry secret...the bad old days of US manufacturing.
Not quite sure why we are discussing 20 year old cars. Do you remember what the '86 Excel was like, compared to the Civic of the time? I do. The Excel was junk compared to the Civic, or Accord, of that time.
The Accord has improved greatly in the past 20 years. So has Hyundai. How about if we focus on today's mid-sized cars?
steve333 wrote: "What happened to 'fair' trade? I thought that was illegal. Americans go out and rush to buy these cheap Korean vehicles when their sole aim is to knock out American manufacturing prowess."
Evidently you're not old enough to remember when Datsun (Nissan), Honda, and Toyota first started selling their products in this country - and, their impact on domestic car sales! Replace your word "Korean," with "Japanese," and turn back the clock, and you're saying exactly the same thing about the Japanese cars, including Honda. Many altruistic old timers who thought Japanese cars were junk were saying exactly the same thing as you are now.
The more things change, the more they stay the same . . .
Your Sonata will likely be a good value. I buy a lot of them for clients at the auctions - and they hardly ever have a problem. They're old tech, and a bit heavy, but seem to be up to GM Quality at least, maybe a bit better. Don't know about Honda going down in quality, I'll take your word for it - the last Honda I owned was an 89 Civic, and it only lasted 180,000 miles before it needed some engine work. Was burning lots of oil.
I had an 86 Excell for a couple of days - dumped it. It was a disposable car back then. A lot of progress has been made since then, and they produce a darn good car now, if you like 'em.
I can't believe they made an action movie for Optima AD. It's fun and long too. Try higher view version 728x480. Please be little patient to download. You guys will like it. ">link titlehttp://lotze.kia.co.kr/lotze_cinema.htm link">
"they have also shown they could care less if our manufacturing base is flushed down the toilet, all they want is a cheap car. Hyundai has it made in this country."
Your right - I could care less. It's a shame. However, I don't care where the car comes from I decide to buy. I for one, feel the unions (in part) are a BIG part of the problem. Another, is the quality control of the American car makers. Hyundai came out with terrible cars a few short years ago. Now, some of them are very good. If Ford and GM goes under (more likely Ford) then they deserve it! I think GM will get "lean and mean" and find out exactly where their market share is, and remain in business. Ford has some major problems. They still can't make a competitive car, and they do not wish to bring over their European models that are very good.
Chuck This is about more than a car or a car company. It's about America losing it's ability to do the very thing that made this country great - manufacture. Sadly, as you indicate, many Americans no longer care about that. So eventually, we'll get what we, and that includes you, deserve.
Steve. You're not a hater. I happen to agree. The dash, and particularly, the center control stack on the 06 Sonata is hideous, IMO. I'm currently looking into midsize cars, and when I looked at the controls on the Sonata I actually laughed. It looks to me like a childs toy. The exterior styling is as good or better than many. But, that dash....uugghh. Just can't take the car seriously.
Thats funny, They have the same thing at a Ford dealership by me! Yes, all kinds of letters about people and their Ford cars, trucks, vans ect with many miles on them...How great the service/sales is ect.. Perception folks, its all perception. After all these years of being bombarded by the media about how reliabile X brand is and how unreliable Y brand is you get brainwashed. :shades:
"Americans have shown they have no loyalty to their own car companies, they have also shown they could care less if our manufacturing base is flushed down the toilet, all they want is a cheap car. Hyundai has it made in this country.
Right on! Americans will wake-up when its too late.... oh, it is too late.. ever hear of Trade deficit?? You will.. soon..
Americans don't understand about the loss of manufacturing ability and what it means to the economic stability of this country. We have a huge trade deficit and the government doesn't educate the population on what it really means to our future as a nation. Yes, we will get what we deserve. Its happening right now but we are too blind to see it... :sick:
i think personally the ceo of gm is especially has no clue what he is doing. On the minus side on top of that unlike Chrysler who now luckily uses mercedez secrets for their cars, gm aquired auto divisions that they can learn nothing from really
Gm has too much american pride, that they just cannot understand having too many american auto divisions is going to hurt in terms of quality and defect reductions.
Opel is their most respected car in the world(quality is very good, some of the best styled cars) and if they want to win in the auto game, they should bring thoses cars here or make them here , forget about cars like cobalt, ion. The astra would be top 3 in compact car sales alone.
which explains why hyundai opened their plant in the US...or why toyota and honda keep making very good vehicles in the states. it's less about "manufacturing ability" and more about the quality of management and their relationship with the auto unions. the future of our country is now in the hands of our government. if you want more of the same, keep those who are in power in office. if you don't...get involved.
Everybody has a best cars or best trucks list these days. But the one in the May issue of Esquire magazine is more eclectic than most. Here are the best cars under $50,000 in Esquire's view, in no particular order:
Chevrolet Corvette ($44,490): "Ten pounds of awesome in a five-pound bag."
Mazda 6 ($19,670): "This is the kind of car you name and keep driving long after it's paid for."
BMW 3-Series ($30,900 to $44,900): "Some of the most joyful, nuanced driving anywhere."
Audi A3 3.2 DSG ($34,700): "Take a smallish family car and stuff it with a big ol' motor."
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution ($29,149): "You'll live The Fast and the Furious every time you turn the key."
Ford F-150 ($19,640 to $37,005): "Not many people really need a pickup, but plenty of them still want an F-150."
Infiniti G35 coupe ($33,200): "A G35 parked in your driveway raises your neighbors' property values."
Lotus Elise ($42,990): "It's a scalpel in a room full of sledgehammers."
Subaru Legacy GT ($28,795): "A ninja in a business suit."
Chrysler 300C SRT8 ($42,695): "An addictive combination of American power and German chassis finesse."
I can tell you as much as Hyundai is not giving Sonatas away, and a good amount of profit is made on each car sold. Hyundai is not just a car company - FYI, they are a conglomerate
You have proved nothing by stating it again. Saying over and over again doesnt make it true. But what you said later is more likely the truth. Hyundai has huge resources ( including the probably the Korean govt ) so losses on the US auto business mean very little to the larger corporation.... except that it's embarrassing that such a high tech company with such an excellent product has to 'beg for business' with massive gifts to the US buyer.
Here is reality: I posted a cost comparison back a few days ago with some costs and selling prices and 'profits' which were admittedly grossly estimated but which showed how much difference in profit Toyota and Honda make on the vehicles. I made a wild guess of $8000, which is too high.
A following poster made a more detailed post showing that Toyota and Honda trail Nissan somewhat but each makes about $1500 profit on a vehicle. Here's the logic: if the two best producers in the US make only $1500 profit per vehicle but sell $6000 higher in price than Hyundai then Hyundai is losing about $4500 on every vehicle it sells.
Please no more about making a profit on Hyundai's made here in the US. The plant is still on it's learning curve; it is not up to capacity so likely it isn't covering it's fixed costs yet; it has some ways to go to be as efficient as it's three main rivals.
'half the workers of a typical plant' means of a Big 3 plant not an other transplant. The Ala plant is still a baby learning to stand up. The Georgetown, Marysville and Smyrna plants are professional athletes with 10+ yrs of experience. Please be logical.
Making huge losses is OK with a company the size of Hyundai in order to win market share. It's embarrassing but it's understandable.
Comments
Don't forget about the poor slide off driver's seat, weak fuel economy, cabin noise from the gas tank, styling from the mid 90s.....and that slanted H thing.
At least the giveaway pricing does mitigate the sullied Hyundai reputation of the past.
Can you clarify what cabin noise from the gas tank is? To the best of my knowledge, the Sonata has one of the quitest cabin around; even at full throttle. The Edmunds test ranked Sonata's cabin as the quitest in two out of the three categories (Db @ Idle & Db @ 70mph), Db at full throttle, the Sonata is only off by 0.4
Fuel Economy from Edmunds' test: Sonata 19.6; Camry 20.4; Accord 21.4; not great but also not weak by any stretch of the imagination...
Styling is very subjective, and the slanted H has a lot of meanings, which I just read from another forum. Personally, I like it better than the boxy H.
Oh, and the "slated H thing" mentioned by a previous poster when discussing the "cons" of the Sonata, I believe it's supposed to represent the company (Hyundai) and a customer shaking hands. At least it implies more than just the first letter of the name of the company. And for that matter, what the heck is Toyota's and Mazda's current logos supposed to represent?
and not that i'm bashing honda because their engines are meant to be on the efficient side, but as in more power and alot of technical aspects the new nissan engines are better. The new VQ series engines pull so smoothly and faster , the accord feels slow and trying.
Funny thing is, I see Hyundai's all over with "Boxy" H license plates on the front of them (trying to fool people). But I have yet to see a Honda with a "slanted H" symbol on it. I don't think it has ever happened. No one with a Honda, is trying to impersonate a Hyundai driver.
noise coming from the gas? what are you talking about, this is what i mean nitpicking
The slanted "h" emblem?? very illogical comment about not likeing a car
hyundai understands the art of desining cars exteriorly(european expertise)
Who's to say? Every consumer is different. I was car shopping, and plan on keeping my car a long time. The interior of the Accord feels like it will stand the test of time in both design and quality. I could say neither about the Sonata, and that WAS enough to point me away from a V6 Sonata and into an I-4 Accord for similar $ (I could've gotten either).
The first Accords were junk. I was at a pro Golf Tourney in Hartford when the Acura first came out. I forget the year (maybe about 1986) but think the month was August. There was a rain delay. We went to the vendors' tent to see the displays. The guy at the "brand new Acura" booth told us that Honda did market research and found the Americans would not pay, maybe it was $13,000, for a Honda but they might pay that amount for an up scale Japanese car. Bingo! No up scale Honda. The Acura was born.
Several years later people were still buying Acura's not realizing they had a Honda. Some were vehement that they did not have a Honda...until challenged to open the hood and saw "Honda" on the engine.
How do you know that? Hyundai is a Korean company and adheres to Korean reporting methods (whatever they are) in Korean currency. And from that you deduce they are making a good amount of profit? I don't think we'll ever know. The SK government subsidizes and supports Hyundai through a million different ways that I doubt even Hyundai knows how to eliminate intercompany transactions in their financials. They could be bleeding money, especially with the Hyundai chairman disappearing amid financial controversy. Whatever the case, pegging the Sonata at giveaway prices earns them market share for the future, which they deperately need to overcome their past 'transgressions'. It all makes sense cause they're building a car now that is acceptable.
Easy. I think the intracacies of this design have yet to be ironed out. But a great idea nonetheless (I think Cadillac had this too IIRC)
i didn't buy a honda this time. but i will always consider them (barring some major screw ups by them) when i buy a car or am asked to recommend a car by a friend or family member.
their designs are thoughtful and well executed. really the one thing that i would criticize in honda's design is sometimes their use of colors in their interior. but generally their designs are proportional, have good balance, and put controls in places that make sense.
really, it's what i like about Japenese design: simple, elegant, functional, and conveys a sense of peace and ease. this is what good architecture conveys, what a nicely designed room attemps, and what makers of fine clothes strive for. design matters. why do stores spend billions of dollars redisigning their stores? or car companies change their design every few years? i think that's why so many magazines and reviewers have placed the accord as a benchmark that it's competitors attempt to achieve. being too dismissive of what makes the accord a great car or honda a great company is in my view shortsighted. just like some of the sonataholics accuse me of being for not saying that the sonata is the only choice worthy of consideration. thing is, honda earned my respect over decades. hyundai has done well for a few years now? good for them. i hope they keep it up. and if they keep it up maybe after another decade or so i will have the same faith in hyundai as i do honda. but not until then.
On a somewhat related note, the new Alab. plant, where the new Sonata and the upcoming Santa Fe are built, is very interesting. The automation of the plant is beyond belief; the capacity calls for 300K vehicles annually, while using less than half of workers than the typical plant.
Whatever the year, they were junk at first (my point earlier) and rapidly improved. 7 or 8 years can see big changes in cars.
Most everyone will agree that they are a top notch car today.
The H looks like a Honda H on crack. Could never get used to it, but you know what i really dislike about Hyundai, besides the name? The fact that Hyundai and all South Korean companies get financial handouts from their Govmnt. None of those conglomerates would exist if not for help from their Govmnt.
What happened to 'fair' trade? I thought that was illegal. Americans go out and rush to buy these cheap Korean vehicles when their sole aim is to knock out American manufacturing prowess.
Go ahead and buy a Hyundia or a Kia. Me, it matters where my money goes. If I had such a hankering to buy foreign I would buy a Mazda (controlled by Ford), or a Suzuki (most cars are GMDAT-Korean owned by GM), or even Honda, which is bigger here than in Japan. Toyota is out, Hyundai and Kia are out, Nissan is out (less reliable than GM), all the German cars are out (less reliable than GM).
I could never bring myself to say I bought a Hyundai. Not gonna happen. OK, maybe I am a hater :P
Sounds like you're the one speculating about Hyundai's "profit". I doubt they're giving them away, but the margins on them are surely slim. I agree they are trying to buy markey share, but you need a decent car to do that. The Sonata is a decent car.
If Hyundai will sell an American a Sonata for a low price, at the expense of its own people (the SK government basically), why should we care? We're not eating our pets.
Americans have shown they have no loyalty to their own car companies, they have also shown they could care less if our manufacturing base is flushed down the toilet, all they want is a cheap car. Hyundai has it made in this country.
Car making is only a part of Hyundai business.
Every nation, CEOs, and Government have secrets that they have to hide.
Don't try to describe the whole Iceberg when you can only see the top of it.
I will buy your story when you can read a newspaper written in Korean.
One of my clients had a gold or beige Accord the first year they came out. He dumped it after 2 or 3 years because of rust problems and dissatisfaction with the 2 speed automatic. I'm thinking the first Accord was barely larger than the Civic of it's time...maybe about the size of today's Mini Cooper.
Honda/Accord came a long way in a short time. My brother had an '85 Accord and it was fine until something went wrong. Couldn't replace a headlamp bulb without getting a new headlamp assembly. Broken radio antennea required disassembling the right side of the dashboard. There was also a problem with brake pads & rotors on his '85.
Gas milage was good & it had plenty of pep. Steering was too "light."
Meanwhile, let's stop the bashing. Please.
The Accord has improved greatly in the past 20 years. So has Hyundai. How about if we focus on today's mid-sized cars?
Evidently you're not old enough to remember when Datsun (Nissan), Honda, and Toyota first started selling their products in this country - and, their impact on domestic car sales! Replace your word "Korean," with "Japanese," and turn back the clock, and you're saying exactly the same thing about the Japanese cars, including Honda. Many altruistic old timers who thought Japanese cars were junk were saying exactly the same thing as you are now.
The more things change, the more they stay the same . . .
I had an 86 Excell for a couple of days - dumped it. It was a disposable car back then. A lot of progress has been made since then, and they produce a darn good car now, if you like 'em.
It's fun and long too.
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Your right - I could care less. It's a shame. However, I don't care where the car comes from I decide to buy. I for one, feel the unions (in part) are a BIG part of the problem. Another, is the quality control of the American car makers. Hyundai came out with terrible cars a few short years ago. Now, some of them are very good.
If Ford and GM goes under (more likely Ford) then they deserve it! I think GM will get "lean and mean" and find out exactly where their market share is, and remain in business. Ford has some major problems. They still can't make a competitive car, and they do not wish to bring over their European models that are very good.
This is about more than a car or a car company. It's about America losing it's ability to do the very thing that made this country great - manufacture. Sadly, as you indicate, many Americans no longer care about that. So eventually, we'll get what we, and that includes you, deserve.
You're not a hater. I happen to agree. The dash, and particularly, the center control stack on the 06 Sonata is hideous, IMO.
I'm currently looking into midsize cars, and when I looked at the controls on the Sonata I actually laughed. It looks to me like a childs toy. The exterior styling is as good or better than many. But, that dash....uugghh. Just can't take the car seriously.
Right on! Americans will wake-up when its too late.... oh, it is too late.. ever hear of Trade deficit?? You will.. soon..
i think personally the ceo of gm is especially has no clue what he is doing. On the minus side on top of that unlike Chrysler who now luckily uses mercedez secrets for their cars, gm aquired auto divisions that they can learn nothing from really
Gm has too much american pride, that they just cannot understand having too many american auto divisions is going to hurt in terms of quality and defect reductions.
Opel is their most respected car in the world(quality is very good, some of the best styled cars) and if they want to win in the auto game, they should bring thoses cars here or make them here , forget about cars like cobalt, ion. The astra would be top 3 in compact car sales alone.
At least, I have not used extreme words like "Slit my own throat" yet.
05:00 PM CDT on Sunday, April 30, 2006
Everybody has a best cars or best trucks list these days. But the one in the May issue of Esquire magazine is more eclectic than most. Here are the best cars under $50,000 in Esquire's view, in no particular order:
Chevrolet Corvette ($44,490): "Ten pounds of awesome in a five-pound bag."
Mazda 6 ($19,670): "This is the kind of car you name and keep driving long after it's paid for."
BMW 3-Series ($30,900 to $44,900): "Some of the most joyful, nuanced driving anywhere."
Audi A3 3.2 DSG ($34,700): "Take a smallish family car and stuff it with a big ol' motor."
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution ($29,149): "You'll live The Fast and the Furious every time you turn the key."
Ford F-150 ($19,640 to $37,005): "Not many people really need a pickup, but plenty of them still want an F-150."
Infiniti G35 coupe ($33,200): "A G35 parked in your driveway raises your neighbors' property values."
Lotus Elise ($42,990): "It's a scalpel in a room full of sledgehammers."
Subaru Legacy GT ($28,795): "A ninja in a business suit."
Chrysler 300C SRT8 ($42,695): "An addictive combination of American power and German chassis finesse."
Terry Box
You have proved nothing by stating it again. Saying over and over again doesnt make it true. But what you said later is more likely the truth. Hyundai has huge resources ( including the probably the Korean govt ) so losses on the US auto business mean very little to the larger corporation.... except that it's embarrassing that such a high tech company with such an excellent product has to 'beg for business' with massive gifts to the US buyer.
Here is reality: I posted a cost comparison back a few days ago with some costs and selling prices and 'profits' which were admittedly grossly estimated but which showed how much difference in profit Toyota and Honda make on the vehicles. I made a wild guess of $8000, which is too high.
A following poster made a more detailed post showing that Toyota and Honda trail Nissan somewhat but each makes about $1500 profit on a vehicle. Here's the logic: if the two best producers in the US make only $1500 profit per vehicle but sell $6000 higher in price than Hyundai then Hyundai is losing about $4500 on every vehicle it sells.
Please no more about making a profit on Hyundai's made here in the US. The plant is still on it's learning curve; it is not up to capacity so likely it isn't covering it's fixed costs yet; it has some ways to go to be as efficient as it's three main rivals.
'half the workers of a typical plant' means of a Big 3 plant not an other transplant. The Ala plant is still a baby learning to stand up. The Georgetown, Marysville and Smyrna plants are professional athletes with 10+ yrs of experience. Please be logical.
Making huge losses is OK with a company the size of Hyundai in order to win market share. It's embarrassing but it's understandable.