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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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Camry ranges from $18,850 for a CE 2.4L 4 5M to $31,700 for a very tricked out XLE 3.5L V6 6A (In area code 19146, and including the following options: Heated Seats, VSC, Smart Key, Navigation, Sirius radio, 5 piece mat set, Glass Breakage Sensor, First Aid Kit).
~alpha
IMO anything that looks like it might besmirch the Camry image, like the perception of taking advantage of high demand, is quickly dealt with even though Toyota legally has no control over what happens at the local level.
Initial reports on the other boards indicate 36-38 mpg is a typical range of fuel economy ( ~2.7 GPC ). Yes it is very early so the statistics are anecdotal presently. However since the HSD has been in use now for 10 yrs ( 6 yrs here ) and hundreds of thousands of drivers here use it on a daily basis the FE results can be predicted fairly accurately.; c.f. my posts #843 & #848 on the 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid board.
I believe it was Automobile magazine that recently tested a Camry 4 and a Camry Hybrid over the same terrain/course, averaging 37 MPG in the TCH and 31 MPG in the 4. I believe this was more of a Highway loop and not "Overall", but provides a comparison between the two nonetheless.
Also, Car and Driver's June issue has a great 'Short Take' on the TCH very positive overall, (except I thought braking distances were disappointing, especially compared to the SE 4 5M already tested).
And finally, Road and Track's May issue had a great article on the Camry SE V6 and Camry Hybrid (along with the Ford Escape V6 and Hybrid, and Civic EX and Hybrid).
~alpha
The reported values on hybrids on most boards and the GH database for example indicate that while the EPA values are 'perfect condition' values most drivers are attaining just under the EPA Highway value as a combined driving result.
Prius II 48.5 mpg mean (GH) vs 51 mpg (EPA)
HH.......26 mpg mean (GH) vs 28 (EPA)
400h......25 mpg mean (GH) vs 27 (EPA)
The GH database values consider full year driving in all conditions including winter driving and highspeed highway driving, each of which deteriorates FE by least 10%. Neither is taken into account in the EPA testing.
With advances in knowledge and technology in the TCH I would not at all be shocked to see GH values on the database to show the mean FE to be in the 36-38 mpg range.
With all due respect, the above is very inconsiderate and extremely rude.
"Who cares anymore about why someone bought their _______ (fill in the blanks)" - not only insenstitive but childish at the same time. Regardless of the trim/model/brand, someone cares so I would suggest you move away from the personal attacks. I don't know much about you but what if people said the same thing regarding the car you purchased - I don't think that would be fun.
Everyone has difference perference, and not everyone shares the same likes/dislikes as you...if someone wants to talk about a midsize car in this forum, I don't see why you have any reasons to discourage it...
I am intrigued by hybrid cars. I would love for someone to offer a hybird diesal midsive in the US. I think that be great.
Joe97, I am not even going to bother responding. If you are privy to the discussion as I have been since its inception, you'd know that they are plenty that share my same frustration. The point being is I specified the Sonata for a reason. You cannot add in any car to it. It is just in reference to that car specifically. I will not perpetuate the situation by continuing down this road though. Take it as you will. Interesting though you'd comment on it since you are a Sonata fan (nothing wrong with that) and post in a lot of Sonata forums.
Please refer to my last point in post #843. The EPA for lack of better data 'assumes' ( we all know what that makes of you and me ) that we all drive 50/50 between city and highway. Huge error on their part.
My actual driving is 85% Highway and 15% City at about 60 mph on average. Thus my weighted EPA combined should be about 52 mpg combined. EPA conditions: about 50 mph in flat terrain with no wind and moderate temps. I'm just at 51-52 mpg since the weather warmed.
The CR report from a couple of years back:
One test and one data point are extremely, extemely anecdotal just a s mine above is. Overall GH is a much better source statistically since it includes thousands of data points and it's margin of error is minimal. After this year's brouhaha over the CR article about hybrids do you think a lot of people still consider it to be relevent in assessing hybrids? The next analysis CR makes will be scrutinized so closely due to their huge 'Ooops' this year that the printers will sweat.
A data base with thousands of data points and millions of miles is much more useful. Note CR makes no mention at all of this source. Does it appear that they might be wearing blinders?
A link to Toyota Georgetown's website concering hybrids:
http://www.toyotageorgetown.com/hybrid/index.asp
Note that they acknowledge a 'discussion' in-house about which fuel to use but all agree that the hybrid technology should and can be used as a 'multiplier' no matter which fuel source is used ( page 4 of the link).
I agree. Which is why I will wait for more real-world data before assuming the TCH will average 37 mpg in real-world driving.
Or were there male models there considering Mercury seems to be courting the female buyer morewso with the Milan vs. the Fusion?
Either way, Milan is less than a hit, which is why you don't see many on the road. I see more Zephyrs (is that what they're calling them now?)
The Mercury exhibit had an older gentleman (local sales rep I think) who was quite helpful and remembered with me those halcyon days when most cars had foldaway side mirrors--something the newest mid-sizers like Fulan, Sonata, and Camry have ditched in the name of, I assume, cost savings.
I like the Milan better than the Fusion mainly because the grille and tail are more subdued (and do not share a name and five bright metal bars with a razor), and the "base" interior on the Milan is much nicer (albeit costlier). All I would need added to the base Milan is the ABS and side bag packages.
For model year 2007 it will come with most of the Sonata's standard safety equiptment. I don't believe the MSRP of the Milan and Sonata are that far apart though transaction prices for the Sonata are probably lower due to the high incentives on the Sonata while the Milan has had minimal fleet sales. The trade off there depends on how long you are goign to keep the car. The Milan's resale value should be significantly better. Dispite what might be said to the contrary, due to the high fleet sales, the lower transaction amount will not offset the lesser resale value completely.
If you have any facts to back up your assertion that lower transaction amounts will not offest lesser resale values, I would like to see them. This has not been my personal experience.
Good call, I missed that the base Sonata has heated mirrors as well. The interior of the Milan I like a lot more, just a personal opinion, especially if you get the two tone leather and mahogany wood package. Real nice.
Major news for the 07 Fusion:
Safety and Security package become standard on every Fusion.
The SE Sport Package (wheels and 6 CD) becomes standard on SE 4 and 6
The SEL premium package (autolamp dash treatment) becomes standard on SEL 4 and 6.
And also in another recent post by ryguy1718:
hey guys,
I work at a ford dealer,
The ordering guide came out yesterday for the 07 fusion's.
Here are the Job #2 Changes,
All wheel drive
Dvd Navi
It seems like ford got the message
The Milan gets the same features as the Fusion so the safety features are there as well as nav and AWD which the competition doesn't really offer. It gives these two cars a good edge.
The ESC isn't offered but the safety benefits of it may not be that great. I don't know, but it seems like safety is very close these days like reliability.
I know some studies have been posted, if not here someplace in Town Hall, about the benefits of ESC in accident avoidance. I think the IIHS did some work on that. Anyway, when it comes to safety I'll take every advantage I can get. If ESC is readily available and not too pricey, I'll take it. Overall, car safety has improved a lot in the last few years; the IIHS has even delegated frontal crash tests to the automakers to concentrate on other stuff.
http://www.theautochannel.com/link.html?http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_r- - atings/introduction.php
The recommendation is that Europeans should never buy a vehicle that doesn't have Stability Control. Click Recommendation then click the links.
Here's a few links about ESC for you:
NHTSA
NHTSA ESC Research
IIHS Report(pdf)
Amen. I'm not one who will add ESC as an option to a car (most of them anyway) because I don't feel it's worth it in one regardless of what the studies show. Does my SUV have it? You bet! Buy my Mazda6 does not and it's superb handling and braking more than compensate for my and other's errors.
I'd really be annoyed if I added it and it intruded too much ruining the driving experience. Hear that Toyota?! :P
It's even less likely I would sell a car with 5 years left on the warranty!
It almost seems as though something is wrong with the brake interlock; the brake lights are activated all the time, regardless of pressure on the brakes. Whatever the case, I had to taxi to work and will work out the issue with Hertz later tonight. (The key cannot be removed from the ignition, either.)
This saddens me- its the fourth Sonata I've had since January and fifth Hyundai (I had a jazzy Azera two calendar weeks ago). All of them served very well, save this recent Sonata.
Any thoughts, or experience like this one?
~alpha
I know some trannies have a "limp home" mode that puts it into 2nd gear--had that happen once on a Grand Caravan when a sensor went out. A problem with the brake interlock sounds right, since the key cannot be removed.
Resale values are the product of a couple factors which has been proven by numerous articles with Ford, Toyota, Honda, VW, and GM (too name a few) stating that it is the product of fleet sales and incentives that have the most affect on resale values. Also included in that is demand on used vehicles. Whether a car is domestic r foreign has nothing really to do with it. What has happened to make it seem that way is that foreign cars usually have less incentive, less fleet sales, and higher demand than domestics. The Sonata has had far higher fleet sales and incentives than the Fusion. In fact, I would dare say that the year old Fusion resale is higher than the year old Sonata right now because of the high incentives. If you bought your new Sonata when it came out last year it was $20K, now the same car could be had last month for $17K. The used car retail has to be under $17K for the car you paid $20K for or you'd just buy a new one. The Fusion doesn't have those issues and right now, demand is very close to supply. It had $1K rebate when it came out and it has $1K rebate now.
It's not as much theories and projections as it is how the used car market works. If you can't believe in Ford and GM, then believe in VW and Honda who have all said the same thing.
I don't know if ESC only comes on when you are skidding. Doesn't it also come on in heavy cornering?
Me and Kecia danced around a Tahoe this morning, even in the rain. I think ESC is a great feature but it just doesn't move the needle for me. Yes, the insurance institute's findings are great, but liek I said before there is all types of new technology that is great on safety in tests. Like the brakes that brake for you if they detect an eminant accident, or the pedals that move, or several other new safety technology. It just doesn't move the needle for me anymore. Side air bags, now that is something that could move the needle. Like I said, I fear more someone running into me then me swerving into an accident.
I just laughed to myself when I heard about some dealers selling the all-new Sonata and then the new Azera for list price or more. And some folks bought at that price! The wiser buyers waited.
:P
But yea, glad its not mine.
No, unless you lose control. The professional drivers can live on the edge of 'loss of control' but not your everyday driver with family in the car.
That's not entirely true. Some systems have been noted as coming on too early and ruining some fun. Even the system in our '06 Explorer has been harped on about that but it's an SUV, what do they expect?
Someone else said you can always turn it off. Well that's not always true either. Some systems still remain on even when you supposedly deactivated them. Toyota comes to mind again IIRC.
Maybe it's because of where and how I drive, I just don't see the need for ESC in most cars. Side air bags and curtains, ABS, door beams, I'll gladly pay for.