In my region Accords are $1-2K more than comparable sedans. You can't touch an EXV6 auto for less than $25K. With Nav your looking at at least around $27K. Yep, guess its all in your opinion and perception... Warranty? Isn't the Honda 3years, 36,000?? :confuse: I guess I am the type of person that wants different. Today while out in my Fusion I had another person ask me what kind of car it was? I like that.... :shades:
"Making ridiculous statements like this one drops your credibility to zero. I guess next you'll tell us they designed the Sonata to look better than a porsche 911."
please respect other peoples statement and opinions, if you don't want to lock the forum for a second time. I was dumb to help it close the first time
Now why is this a ridiculous statement, when hyundai has admitted thats what they've done? There is no way you can't see audi a4-a6 of early 00's profile especially on the side. Craftmenship was also audi benchmark. Internal quietness and other things lexus 330(quietest nvb in my opinion still in its class).
I never claimed the sonata did a carbon copy of either of these cars exactly(even hyundai can't meet the costs), but from riding the car myself a couple of times and other editiors comments, it sure did come close.
Puzzles me how you think it is a bogus statement then.
The side profile of the Sonata looks like the A6 to
They copy one car, they benchmark the other car. Does Hyundai have any original ideas? Oh, the ugly interior must be their own idea. On second thought, they should just stick to copying other cars. They'll be better off. 3 years late, but still better off.
Elroy, are you sure you know what "benchmarking" is? Judging by your reply, I believe you may be confused about it.
All it means is TAKING MEASUREMENTS. Benchmarks are quantifiable, and have nothing to do with styling. For example, the Sonata team measured cabin noise in the Lexus 330, and tried to match it or better it. IIRC, they also benchmarked the 330's interior room. I don't know what they benchmarked on the A4. The most likely thing would be the coefficient of drag and/or high speed stability, as the A4 is a pretty slick car. Owner report the Sonata is smooth and solid at high speed, up to 130+ mph.
You guys are all confused about what a Sonata is. It's a "cheap imitation of other cars". Call it what you want. You are comparing the Sonata to cars that are totally out of it's league.
All the talk of rear or front or side view similar appearance is kind of silly. All these cars are offering a similar package in exterior dimensions. In order to provide the desired interior & cargo space, the overall exteriors have to be somewhat similar.
Benchmarking, to me, means striving for equal or better quality, not appearance. Any car that can benchmark a car twice it's price is offering a good product.
I don't think Mazda, Honda, Hyundai, Toyota, or even Chev. Impala have anything to be ashamed of. It's all about the value/features for the dollar.
MPG, ride quality, handling, acceleration, quietness (or lack thereof), creature features & safety features are what it's about.
My '05 Sonata is still fantastic. At first I didn't care for the looks of the '06 Sonata, but it did grow on me. Maybe it was the color of the first '06 I saw. Some cars, to my eye, look "yeech" in one color but nice in a different color. The '06 Sonata has much better safety features for very little more (real) price than the '05.
Maybe you should write letters to the editors of mags like Car & Driver, Motor Trend, and Consumer Reports and tell them they are confused also. Oh, and Web sites like Edmunds.com too.
Elroy, I couldn't be happier with my Sonata. It does everything well, and is building a great reputation for reliability. You're in the minority on this car Elroy. Most Accord and Camry owners that actually drove the Sonata respect it. Savvy 06 Sonata owners caught on fast, others are are slower. Reminds me of the criticism Toyota and Honda owners used to take a few years back. "Cheap imititions" they called them.
"You guys are all confused about what a Sonata is. It's a "cheap imitation of other cars". Call it what you want. You are comparing the Sonata to cars that are totally out of it's league."
C'mon Elroy... dreaming is free... just let them be.
I really hope no one dreams of being in a Camry or an Accord. I mean, I've driven and have rode my friend's Accord, but it's not light years ahead of the Sonata. I think they are very comparable. The Sonata's a little bit more comfortable as a passenger actually.
I don't think anyone compared the Sonata to a Maybach or a Bently or Mercedes even. The Sonata's a great car for an even better price. That's the general concensus for the majority here on this board who actually own the Sonata.
If you own the Sonata and have gripes about it, then let it be known. However, if your just here to bash Hyundai, that's pretty sad. And why is there always a not so subtle hint of arrogance when [non-permissible content removed]-mobile posters have something to say about us Hyundai customers who are content with their cars? Come on! I have better things to dream about than owning a Camry.
I mean the Sonata isn't something to drool about but since when did the Camry/Accord/Mazda become the ultimate chick magnet? :mad:
I really hate that some Hyundai owners think that all Honyota owners think the Sonata is garbage, because we don't. I have Accords, and other than two Chryslers that my family has had, we've only had Honda's since I've been alive (since 1982). Hyundai doesn't feel as refined as my Accord, but it is certainly worth a look depending on what you value, especially if you value, er, value!
The Hyundai has got its features and prices played right, and the style is inoffensive as the other cars in its class (save for the Fusion which went bolder), and it has the interior room to be competitive. The Hyundai is a competitor, whether other Honda and Toyota people think it is or not. I chose the Accord EX I-4 for the same price I could have gotten a V-6 Sonata, and I still wouldn't change my mind today, because I much prefer the interior design and tactile feel, as well as the handling advantages of the Honda over a V-6. I don't think this makes the Hyundai bad (and I dont think all Honda owners think Hyundai is garbage either), it just makes the Hyundai a different blend.
Pardon my cheap little anaology, but these cars are like coffee.
I chose to get a regular cup of premium blend (Honda I-4) while others are getting an extra grande cup of regular (Hyundai V6) for similar money. The difference is small, and many folks can't tell a difference or don't care for the difference, and get the extra grande regular instead of a small cup of premium.
Ok, that was kind of cheesy, but did it make sense?
Come on King! Just because your Sonata is attractive, powerful, quiet, comfortable, and affordable doesn't mean you have a right to enjoy it without harrassment. Apparently you only have a right to enjoy certain annoited cars in peace. It's almost worth it to spend $5K more on a Camry or Accord, just so you won't have to hear all the squawking from the flat earth bunch.
I chose to get a regular cup of premium blend (Honda I-4) while others are getting an extra grande cup of regular (Hyundai V6) for similar money. The difference is small, and many folks can't tell a difference or don't care for the difference, and get the extra grande regular instead of a small cup of premium.
Ok, that was kind of cheesy, but did it make sense?
I get it. However since we're all buying our coffee at McDonalds it's all premium now. You only have to choose whether you want bold or mild.
The last redesign of the Altima caused a great deal of anticipation and excitement in the Forums. After that died down, the interest in it dropped off pretty sharply, at least here that is. It will be interesting to see what happens.
We are talking about the cars only here. Besides all the other off-topic subjects we've enumerated, I'll add to the list other posters - we are not talking about other posters just as much as we're not talking about all the other things.
Ah the 07 Altima, my favorite subject since my son has an 05 v6. I think they might have a small problem selling them, the new Camry has cought up in power and you can get a v6 at a very good price. What will make the Altima different enough for people to buy it as opposed to the camcord. Perhaps driving dynamics with the new suspension,style. I dont think people care much about he CVT versus a slushbox unless significient MPG improvement is provided. Altima has finally cought up to the rest with standard safety features, but without significant rebates the value may not be there, compared to the camcords. It seems Nissan is trying to move the Altima upscale, so where does that leave the Maxima, Altima actually has more power right now with the 07. My thoughts are really for the v6, the 4 cylinder might sell quite well depending on price. I just read today that in the past few weeks there has been a large shift in car sales to 4 cylinders due to high gas costs. As far as car prices go in todays world of 30,000 Jettas and 36,000 Passats,not picking on VW,it amazes me what people will pay for a normal car. Old Mike
I'm anxious to see the 08 Accord. Considering its the oldest design of the comparo here, I'll bet Honda will do a great job analyzing what the competition is now, and respond in a big way. The Sports4 concept car looks awesome. Great lines. The new Civic is a hit. The Accord will be too.
Especially since those two cars have been my top two favorites since I began posting in these forums.
I drive the current Altima (an 05 2.5S) and absolutely LOVE the exterior styling and the interior design, but some of the materials are cheap. Notably in the center console area. I took an Accord EXV6 out for a test spin a couple months back and was amazed by the quality of materials used in the Accord.
I find the new Camry to be almost equal to the Accord in interior materials, but it too falls short in certain areas. Notably below the passenger's side airbag area, plastic about as cheap as the 02-04 Altimas. I also was surprised when I pulled the handles off the side of the center console. I do like the new Camry's design a bit better, but I find the materials in the Accord to be better.
The Sonata's interior I haven't liked since it was introduced. I think the overall design is plebian. For what cars cost today, I'd expect a bit more enthusiasm in design. The materials aren't bad at all, but they aren't top notch either. The door handles for example feel cheap. And the materials on the dash don't have the substance of the Accord or Camry. Same goes for the new Kia Optima which, to me is worse than the new Sonata. Try turning some of those HVAC knobs in an 06.5 Optima...they almost fly out of your hand.
The new Altima both surprises and disappoints me because some safety features are missing. ABS is still not standard on the 2.5 models, the rear headrest do not adjust (but they do on the new Sentra? Does that make ANY SENSE?) and I find the exterior styling to be not as quite as nice as before (the front end in particular) I'm also not crazy about the wheel choices (then again I hated the 02-04 SE rims too) and I think it's sad that the SE model only gets 17s, while the S and SL models get 16s. They look too small on the Altima IMO.
So I'm out on the Altima right now...and besides, when it's time for me to get another car, the refreshed verison of the new Altima will be hitting the streets. This 07 is about like how I felt about the 02-04. Pretty, but the front is too bland. Once they beef the front up, I'll likely get another...but that depends on what Honda does to the Accord.
If the 08 Accord looks ANYTHING inside or outside like the new Civic, you can count me out. But I am sure the Accord will offer a boatload of features that the competition either makes optional or doesn't have. For example the Accord was the first import sedan in it's class to have dual-zone climate control. I expect some neat touches with the next Accord.
But in all honesty a car that really really has surprised me as of late is the Camry SE. They look great in person and in motion. Each morning on my way to college I pass a White SE..and I find myself looking at that car...never thought I'd see the day I'd be gawking a Camry...I think the Altima's jealous :P
I am looking forward to see what Honda comes up with on the '08 Accord. It won't take much improvement to knock the Camry off its leaders perch. I just hope the engineers aren't held back by the bean-counters. One thing I'd like to see with the '08 Accord is a focus on fuel efficiency, e.g. a I4 option that has a little less hp than the current motor but better economy. (I wonder if their variable cylinder management would work with the I4?) Also if they could make the ride a little more compliant without hurting the handling, that would be very welcome, as would making ESC standard across the board.
The other upcoming car I am looking forward to is the '08 Mazda6, assuming Mazda sticks to a 5-year cycle. Mazda did a great job on the Mazda3; can they surge back to the top of the mid-sized class with the next Mazda6?
It never ceases to amaze me how all the chat is about Honda Accord/Toyota Camry.. and nothing any car maker will make will ever be as good. As good to whom? Competition is hot in this segment. Hyundia Sonata is not a "cheap imitiation" as I have read. I drove one and its plainly a very viable option to the same old, same old Accord/Camry. Chevy also has 2 very good alternatives, the Malibu and the Impala. Ford has fired its shots with the Fusion/Milan. Nissan with its Altima, Mazda with its 6. Much of this frezny over Honda/Toyota is purely media induced..All I can say is thank God for choices other wise we all would be stuck with 2 choices, Camry or Accord.. I guess I just think out of the box. Different...
Much of this frezny over Honda/Toyota is purely media induced..
I disagree. The main reason these two compeitors are so widely talked about in here is because they tend to lead in sales (around 800,000 combined sales last year). Shoot, they are number one and two in the nation in car sales, last i checked.
The media doesn't induce these discussions...People like to talk about what they have and drive, and that's why people talk about Camry and Accord, because they HAVE them.
I tried thinking outside the box of my new car being my first ever new car, and I had plenty of options at my disposal. After seeing the other options, some were either too small (Mazda 6), too chintzy and cheap feeling inside (Chevy and Nissan, not to mention the stodgy styling of the Malibi and boomy engine of the Altima), and the numb steering and awkward driving position of the Hyundai. The Ford concerned me because it was a new model, and the flashy taillamp treatent just seems a little too "look at me" for my personal taste, not to mention the fact that the grill looks like something from "Pimp My Ride". I love the look overall, but would only have one in black if I had one, and I reuse to own a black car due to how hard to maintain the paint is, so that ruled out the Ford.
This led me back to the Camry and Accord. Since I knew the Honda dealer would treat me right (as they have my various family members for decades), I decided on the Accord, and don't regret it at all.
I thought outside the box, and in doing so, chose to walk right back into it and drive it away!
The 3 imports gained a following when they were the econoboxes in the 80s and 90s. The people who bought them bought a simple car with little to go wrong; they didn't have as many features as the typical, larger US brand car. They did rust away in this area-apparently not on the coasts.
Those people became devotees because the US brands weren't able to build cars cheaply made to compete. At the time the pricing was low because of dumping into the US market in some cases. The US brands didn't compete because some they did build weren't built from the ground up; they tried to reduce the size of existing models and cheapen their cost.
Today those early buyers kept buying the larger, and larger models the Datsun, Honda, and eventually Toyo evolved into to move up with their market as the buyers aged.
The media, based on the the coasts, loved the imports. Political factors also made the large US companies bad in the eyes of many buyers of the age who are now baby boomers who fueled the buying of the same models they earlier had bought. People tend to be comfortable with cars that had a psychological and real feel similar to what they've had before; sell a youth a car model and they're easier to sell again on the same model; Civics with fart cans for the kids sells Hondas when they're more mature and settling down.
The quality of many US brands went down as the foreign brands went up and as they learned to use metals that didn't rust away in the northern areas of the US.
Now the quality of many US models has improved greatly but the recognition of those kinds of changes are always slow; add to that the predisposition of the media of types mentioned here as 'experts' to prefer foreign brands and many are overlooking good cars and going to the dealers with the attitudes--at least in this area.
The other upcoming car I am looking forward to is the '08 Mazda6, assuming Mazda sticks to a 5-year cycle.
Have you seen this yet? Seems to address your concern.
One quick correction as that story and photo group were released before final Duratec35 numbers came out. The article claims the new motor will produce 250 HP and 240 ft-lbs, but we now know that the numbers are 265 and 250 respectively and on good old 87 octane. I doubt that Mazda will be allowed to fiddle with it to produce more power this time either. If they did, the every-man Mazda6 V6 would be nearly as powerful as a Mustang and more powerful than the current MAZDASPEED6. One never knows though.
"I am looking forward to see what Honda comes up with on the '08 Accord. It won't take much improvement to knock the Camry off its leaders perch."
"If it wouldn't take much, then why haven't they been able to do it for 8 of the last 9 years? It's not like this model is a step back for Toyota...."
I disagree with the notion that the Camry has been the "leader" in this segment. Until the 2007 Camry, EVERY single review/comparo picked the Accord over the Camry. In terms of retail sales, the Accord consistently outsold the Camry. To me, the Accord has been the leader.
People tend to think the Camry is the leader because:
1) It's a Toyota, and Toyota is much bigger than Honda; 2) Camry fleet sales put its overall sales ahead of the Accord, whos fleet sales are tiny.
It never ceases to amaze me how all the chat is about Honda Accord/Toyota Camry.. and nothing any car maker will make will ever be as good. As good to whom? Competition is hot in this segment. Hyundia Sonata is not a "cheap imitiation" as I have read.
As an 06 Sonata owner, I agree. I'm also a straight shooter. I will say that the 06 Sonata is not an Accord or Camry. It, however, an acceptable facsimile to many reasonable people. I say the Sonata is "just about like an Accord or Camry". Reasonable people will both agree and disagree to that statement. Friends that own A&C see little difference in the overall cars. That's good enough for me, but I can understand if some people disagree. Where the Sonata really shines is on price. No reasonable person can citicize the low price of the Sonata (or any car), yet even that is criticized. Sonata owners are criticized for taking a chance on buying a car that only had a 1 year track record. Yes, I did take a calculated risk. In 5 years, I will end up feeling like either an idiot or a genius. So far, with every month that goes by, I am feeling smarter and smarter!
That puts the Camry marginally ahead, but practically neck and neck I guess.
I still think that the Accord was the benchmark leader in this segment for several years, before the 2007 Camry came along. It'll be interesting to see the eventual comparos between the 2007 Camry, 2007 Altima, and 2008 Accord.
When I said "leader", I meant capability vs. sales. I go by the saying, "Popularity, a winning start, is not the best judge of good art." For example, I consider the Mazda3 to be the best compact yet it does not have the highest sales. In the few comparos I have seen of the 2007 Camry vs. Accord, the Camry has beaten the Accord. But not by much. That's why I said it wouldn't take much for the '08 Accord to knock the Camry off its leader's perch.
If you consider sales as the measure of goodness, then still it would not take much for the '08 Accord to take the #1 position in the class, as kdhspyder pointed out.
The Accord has been acknowledged at the leader in this class by most automotive publications, but that has changed with the '07 Camry--as you noted. So current reality is that the Camry has pushed into the leader's slot in this class, although there will always be people who prefer other choices like the Mazda6, Fulan, or Legacy because of their special capabilities.
I tend to agree with you. The Camry is now the leader, but Honda should be able to catch them with the 2008 model. I did not realize that 10 to 14% of Camrys are sold to fleetsand only 2 to 5% of Accords are sold to fleets (based on the stats from the other posters). Like Toyota, Honda has been on a roll with two big hits the Odyssey which continues to sell near asking price, and the red-hot Civics (selling @ $16,500 for an LX auto versus about $13k for an LE Corolla auto in my neck of the woods). If the Civic surpasses the Corolla, that may be the mother of all seismic shifts in the automobile industry for this year. The Corolla is a classic.
Until this Gen Corolla came out actually the Civic regularly outsold the Corolla in the 90's. when this one was launched 5 yrs ago the product managers promised upper management that the Corolla would pass the Civic finally ( again?) which it has.
Two shocking, to me anyway, points are that the Corolla 5+ yrs and aging is still growing it's sales ( fleets? possibly ) but also both C & C have passed the Accord and are moving upward aiming at the Camry. Now there would be a huge shock.
If oil continues upward there may not be enough small cars to go around. Ok an exageration.
Not quite sure what you mean by the Ody selling for "near asking price." Big discounts are readily available on the Ody--so maybe you meant these asking prices include discounts?
If the Civic even comes close to the Corolla in sales, it will be a big achievement because the Corolla, like the Camry, is sold in large numbers to fleets. The biggest hit for Honda right now is the Fit--selling for list or even above.
The other bogey here is that the Sonata will be due for its mid-gen refresh in two years--not long after the new Accord debuts. The last mid-gen refresh on the Sonata resulted in all-new styling, refined engines, and many other tweaks. It would not take much to correct the deficiencies in the Sonata--the basic car is sound, and the 3.5L V6 is waiting in the wings for those who feel the need for speed. Something to think about in these futures discussions. There's also the new Altima, including the hybrid, and the Mazda6. Lots of possibilities here in the fight for the top of the mid-sized class.
Interesting dilemna for those interested in the Accord. Right now, prices seem to be at an all time low for this body style. You can get an EX-V6 for at or under $24k. So do you take the leap now with the attractive price (thousands less than a Camry equipped the same), or do you wait a few years for the '08, which will be better but probably also more expensive?
My take on the Sonata is that if you really understand what you are buying you'll be OK with it. No, it is not "the same" as Accord and Camry, but for the money, it's close enough. You can get a well-optioned V6 for right around the same price as 4-cylinder Camcordima6. If you are getting ninety percent of the car for seventy percent of the price, how can that be called a bad thing?
The only caveat I would add to potential Hyundai buyers is one that has been covered quite a bit in this rather lengthy thread: Poor resale value. If you plan on keeping the car for the length of the 100,000 mile warranty, then it's an excellent buy. If you plan on selling it in 2-3 years for another car, you'd likely be better of getting something else.
Myself, I "cut corners" on my last few automotive purchases to save money, and more recently was in a position where I didn't have to "compromise" with a Fusion or a Sonata. Perhaps if Hyundai or Ford had a six-speed manual they would have received more consideration. In any case, I bought the Accord EX V6 6MT. They can currently listed at Carsdirect.com for just over $3000 less than MSRP. Still a premium over the Hyundai, but probably not as much as some people think. If shifting yourself is your thing, the smoothness of the Honda six-speed might be well worth the price.
If I recall correctly, they are virtually neck and neck based on last month's sales, but the Corolla is still slightly ahead. I usually don't even back out fleet sales. As far as the Ody, its only the LX trim that has some discounts in my area. The higher trim levels are less discounted or still at MSRP. If you want a discounted minivan, then the Toyota Sienna is discounted more than the Ody - $4,000 to $5,000 with rebate, depending on the trim level.
You are right about the Fit, but Civics are still going quite high in my area - @ MSRP or with a small discount. There is a lot of buzz about the new Civic. Although it may now be number two in sales, its clearly the class leader in the segment, as is the Camry in its segment.
The Civics are hot now because it is so new and different, but two things are going to kill it (relatively speaking) in the long run. (1) first year glitches - they need to fix their two transmission problems and the shock problems that are popping up on message boards everywhere. And judging by several Honda loyalist posts, Honda has had a real problem with transmissions lately and are driving away the "honda lifers" little by little; and (2) the Fit is starting to hone in on some of the Civic territory in a big way.
The only caveat I would add to potential Hyundai buyers is one that has been covered quite a bit in this rather lengthy thread: Poor resale value.
Very good post, unbiased.
Here's my take on re-sale value:
Never accept "average" or "book value" offers! Why would anyone want to do that? :confuse:
Average re-sale value is for statisticians, used car dealers, and insurance companies. It's not for owners. All used cars sell in a range. Would you rather get high, average, or low? Duh??? If you trade in, you usually get low dollar. If you take good care of the car, be patient, and sell to a private individual, you can get top dollar. Top dollar for a "low re-sale value" car usually overlaps cars with "good re-sale value". I have always been fortunate to get top dollar when I sold my old cars, and that's what I expect to get when I sell my 06 Sonata.
Its hard to sell cars on your own. It requires a lot of time and effort, and many people (like me) who get up at 6:30 and get home at 7:30 every night just don't have the time or energy to do it. I know you can get more for your car, but at what cost to you personally?
Plus, when I'm unloading a car its usually for a reason--I could not in good conscience sell some of the cars we've had to other people. They looked nice cosmetically, but...major mechanical problems. Dealers didn't care.
This isn't a Civic thread, but I've driven it, and to me, the Mazda 3 is still the segment 'capability' leader. Also, the Camry typically runs at 10-12%, and from my observation, the 2006 model year represented a spike due to its age and Toyota's (mystifying to me) need to continue the model as the best selling car. Right now, for example, two months after launch, I havent observed any NEW Camrys at Hertz in several big cities that I've visted (well..two big cities, a few smaller ones).
The new Camry surprises me each time I see it in person, its more attractive in real life than in pictures, which can exaggerate the angles. Yesterday, took my ma to breakfast and to the Toyo dealership for service on her '02 Camry. Not a car aficianado, looking at it from the front/side, she pointed to a Magnetic Grey CE and commented, "I really like the new Avalon". After correcting her, she promptly asked me when I felt it would be financially prudent to unload the '02 and get the new Camry...
My point is that cars like the Camry and Accord, which have 20+ year histories of happy customers...sometimes these buyers don't even consider other models, especially the non-enthusiasts. This, I feel, is the challenge presented to the Sonata and Fusion, in particular.
An aside- It's a personal thing, but this is also the first Camry since the Gen 3 that I think actually looks good in Silver, owing to the character lines down the side. The slabbier sides of the Gen 4 and Gen 5 looked so damn appliance like in light colors. I'm starting to see more and more '07 Camrys, and the model mix is more varied than I expected. Seems to be quite a few V6s and SEs (both V6 and 4s) in the NJ/Philly area....
Yep, that is definitely the #1 challenge for the non-HonYotas. Probably why Hyundai is spending all that money on their "Challenge" campaign, and Ford is reaching out to young people (in particular) with innovative events like the "take a Fusion on a date" evenings.
I thought the CE and LE looked boring in silver, but maybe alloys would dress it up a bit. I saw a medium green color the other day that I thought was quite handsome.
Ford's approach is innovative, and personally, I think Hyundai's going to have to step it up, and really be careful with that fleet ratio of 30%. At the Hertz in Milwaukee, you're more likely to get a Sonata than a Taurus, according the #1 Gold agent (Not sure if thats based on inventory or what metrics, so thats only anectdotal, but it speaks nonetheless).
An added issue is that the Camry name has been around for about 23 calendar years (83-07) and the Sonata nearly as long- 17 calendar years, but '05 marked the first Sonata that really ever posed a threat to the Camry and Accord.
Time shall tell. I still like the Sonata very much, even though my last rental left me stranded.
Comments
Warranty? Isn't the Honda 3years, 36,000?? :confuse:
I guess I am the type of person that wants different. Today while out in my Fusion I had another person ask me what kind of car it was? I like that.... :shades:
please respect other peoples statement and opinions, if you don't want to lock the forum for a second time. I was dumb to help it close the first time
Now why is this a ridiculous statement, when hyundai has admitted thats what they've done? There is no way you can't see audi a4-a6 of early 00's profile especially on the side. Craftmenship was also audi benchmark. Internal quietness and other things lexus 330(quietest nvb in my opinion still in its class).
I never claimed the sonata did a carbon copy of either of these cars exactly(even hyundai can't meet the costs), but from riding the car myself a couple of times and other editiors comments, it sure did come close.
Puzzles me how you think it is a bogus statement then.
They copy one car, they benchmark the other car. Does Hyundai have any original ideas? Oh, the ugly interior must be their own idea. On second thought, they should just stick to copying other cars. They'll be better off. 3 years late, but still better off.
All it means is TAKING MEASUREMENTS. Benchmarks are quantifiable, and have nothing to do with styling. For example, the Sonata team measured cabin noise in the Lexus 330, and tried to match it or better it. IIRC, they also benchmarked the 330's interior room. I don't know what they benchmarked on the A4. The most likely thing would be the coefficient of drag and/or high speed stability, as the A4 is a pretty slick car. Owner report the Sonata is smooth and solid at high speed, up to 130+ mph.
Benchmarking, to me, means striving for equal or better quality, not appearance. Any car that can benchmark a car twice it's price is offering a good product.
I don't think Mazda, Honda, Hyundai, Toyota, or even Chev. Impala have anything to be ashamed of. It's all about the value/features for the dollar.
MPG, ride quality, handling, acceleration, quietness (or lack thereof), creature features & safety features are what it's about.
My '05 Sonata is still fantastic. At first I didn't care for the looks of the '06 Sonata, but it did grow on me. Maybe it was the color of the first '06 I saw. Some cars, to my eye, look "yeech" in one color but nice in a different color. The '06 Sonata has much better safety features for very little more (real) price than the '05.
Maybe you should write letters to the editors of mags like Car & Driver, Motor Trend, and Consumer Reports and tell them they are confused also. Oh, and Web sites like Edmunds.com too.
Just look at Prices Paid forum to see that 25k for an EX-V6 is way overpriced...most go around $24k.
The sonata may not be truly an original car, but to me it has a definite mix of european and japanese flavour that does make it unique or hybrid.
It may not be original but it is a brilliant idea to create a car to meet a wide range of consumers demand in what they would like in a car.
Mazda 6 and Tsx also come to mind of japanese and european mixed cars.
C'mon Elroy... dreaming is free... just let them be.
I don't think anyone compared the Sonata to a Maybach or a Bently or Mercedes even. The Sonata's a great car for an even better price. That's the general concensus for the majority here on this board who actually own the Sonata.
If you own the Sonata and have gripes about it, then let it be known. However, if your just here to bash Hyundai, that's pretty sad. And why is there always a not so subtle hint of arrogance when [non-permissible content removed]-mobile posters have something to say about us Hyundai customers who are content with their cars? Come on! I have better things to dream about than owning a Camry.
I mean the Sonata isn't something to drool about but since when did the Camry/Accord/Mazda become the ultimate chick magnet? :mad:
The Hyundai has got its features and prices played right, and the style is inoffensive as the other cars in its class (save for the Fusion which went bolder), and it has the interior room to be competitive. The Hyundai is a competitor, whether other Honda and Toyota people think it is or not. I chose the Accord EX I-4 for the same price I could have gotten a V-6 Sonata, and I still wouldn't change my mind today, because I much prefer the interior design and tactile feel, as well as the handling advantages of the Honda over a V-6. I don't think this makes the Hyundai bad (and I dont think all Honda owners think Hyundai is garbage either), it just makes the Hyundai a different blend.
Pardon my cheap little anaology, but these cars are like coffee.
I chose to get a regular cup of premium blend (Honda I-4) while others are getting an extra grande cup of regular (Hyundai V6) for similar money. The difference is small, and many folks can't tell a difference or don't care for the difference, and get the extra grande regular instead of a small cup of premium.
Ok, that was kind of cheesy, but did it make sense?
Ok, that was kind of cheesy, but did it make sense?
I get it. However since we're all buying our coffee at McDonalds it's all premium now. You only have to choose whether you want bold or mild.
That describes this segment to a "T" IMO.
Their great reputation for their past trespasses still hangs over that slanted H. And you just can't change that.
Let's talk about something else - what other car in this category interests you?
I for one am eagerly awaiting the release of the 2007 Altima. Better interior, sleeker body, more power, CVT, what's not to like.
CARS, people - CARS.
If the '07 is as big an improvement all the other manufacturers will see increased competition.
Long wait tho....
I drive the current Altima (an 05 2.5S) and absolutely LOVE the exterior styling and the interior design, but some of the materials are cheap. Notably in the center console area. I took an Accord EXV6 out for a test spin a couple months back and was amazed by the quality of materials used in the Accord.
I find the new Camry to be almost equal to the Accord in interior materials, but it too falls short in certain areas. Notably below the passenger's side airbag area, plastic about as cheap as the 02-04 Altimas. I also was surprised when I pulled the handles off the side of the center console. I do like the new Camry's design a bit better, but I find the materials in the Accord to be better.
The Sonata's interior I haven't liked since it was introduced. I think the overall design is plebian. For what cars cost today, I'd expect a bit more enthusiasm in design. The materials aren't bad at all, but they aren't top notch either. The door handles for example feel cheap. And the materials on the dash don't have the substance of the Accord or Camry. Same goes for the new Kia Optima which, to me is worse than the new Sonata. Try turning some of those HVAC knobs in an 06.5 Optima...they almost fly out of your hand.
The new Altima both surprises and disappoints me because some safety features are missing. ABS is still not standard on the 2.5 models, the rear headrest do not adjust (but they do on the new Sentra? Does that make ANY SENSE?) and I find the exterior styling to be not as quite as nice as before (the front end in particular) I'm also not crazy about the wheel choices (then again I hated the 02-04 SE rims too) and I think it's sad that the SE model only gets 17s, while the S and SL models get 16s. They look too small on the Altima IMO.
So I'm out on the Altima right now...and besides, when it's time for me to get another car, the refreshed verison of the new Altima will be hitting the streets. This 07 is about like how I felt about the 02-04. Pretty, but the front is too bland. Once they beef the front up, I'll likely get another...but that depends on what Honda does to the Accord.
If the 08 Accord looks ANYTHING inside or outside like the new Civic, you can count me out. But I am sure the Accord will offer a boatload of features that the competition either makes optional or doesn't have. For example the Accord was the first import sedan in it's class to have dual-zone climate control. I expect some neat touches with the next Accord.
But in all honesty a car that really really has surprised me as of late is the Camry SE. They look great in person and in motion. Each morning on my way to college I pass a White SE..and I find myself looking at that car...never thought I'd see the day I'd be gawking a Camry...I think the Altima's jealous :P
The other upcoming car I am looking forward to is the '08 Mazda6, assuming Mazda sticks to a 5-year cycle. Mazda did a great job on the Mazda3; can they surge back to the top of the mid-sized class with the next Mazda6?
I disagree. The main reason these two compeitors are so widely talked about in here is because they tend to lead in sales (around 800,000 combined sales last year). Shoot, they are number one and two in the nation in car sales, last i checked.
The media doesn't induce these discussions...People like to talk about what they have and drive, and that's why people talk about Camry and Accord, because they HAVE them.
I tried thinking outside the box of my new car being my first ever new car, and I had plenty of options at my disposal. After seeing the other options, some were either too small (Mazda 6), too chintzy and cheap feeling inside (Chevy and Nissan, not to mention the stodgy styling of the Malibi and boomy engine of the Altima), and the numb steering and awkward driving position of the Hyundai. The Ford concerned me because it was a new model, and the flashy taillamp treatent just seems a little too "look at me" for my personal taste, not to mention the fact that the grill looks like something from "Pimp My Ride". I love the look overall, but would only have one in black if I had one, and I reuse to own a black car due to how hard to maintain the paint is, so that ruled out the Ford.
This led me back to the Camry and Accord. Since I knew the Honda dealer would treat me right (as they have my various family members for decades), I decided on the Accord, and don't regret it at all.
I thought outside the box, and in doing so, chose to walk right back into it and drive it away!
Those people became devotees because the US brands weren't able to build cars cheaply made to compete. At the time the pricing was low because of dumping into the US market in some cases. The US brands didn't compete because some they did build weren't built from the ground up; they tried to reduce the size of existing models and cheapen their cost.
Today those early buyers kept buying the larger, and larger models the Datsun, Honda, and eventually Toyo evolved into to move up with their market as the buyers aged.
The media, based on the the coasts, loved the imports. Political factors also made the large US companies bad in the eyes of many buyers of the age who are now baby boomers who fueled the buying of the same models they earlier had bought. People tend to be comfortable with cars that had a psychological and real feel similar to what they've had before; sell a youth a car model and they're easier to sell again on the same model; Civics with fart cans for the kids sells Hondas when they're more mature and settling down.
The quality of many US brands went down as the foreign brands went up and as they learned to use metals that didn't rust away in the northern areas of the US.
Now the quality of many US models has improved greatly but the recognition of those kinds of changes are always slow; add to that the predisposition of the media of types mentioned here as 'experts' to prefer foreign brands and many are overlooking good cars and going to the dealers with the attitudes--at least in this area.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If it wouldn't take much, then why haven't they been able to do it for 8 of the last 9 years? It's not like this model is a step back for Toyota....
Have you seen this yet? Seems to address your concern.
One quick correction as that story and photo group were released before final Duratec35 numbers came out. The article claims the new motor will produce 250 HP and 240 ft-lbs, but we now know that the numbers are 265 and 250 respectively and on good old 87 octane. I doubt that Mazda will be allowed to fiddle with it to produce more power this time either. If they did, the every-man Mazda6 V6 would be nearly as powerful as a Mustang and more powerful than the current MAZDASPEED6. One never knows though.
"If it wouldn't take much, then why haven't they been able to do it for 8 of the last 9 years? It's not like this model is a step back for Toyota...."
I disagree with the notion that the Camry has been the "leader" in this segment. Until the 2007 Camry, EVERY single review/comparo picked the Accord over the Camry. In terms of retail sales, the Accord consistently outsold the Camry. To me, the Accord has been the leader.
People tend to think the Camry is the leader because:
1) It's a Toyota, and Toyota is much bigger than Honda;
2) Camry fleet sales put its overall sales ahead of the Accord, whos fleet sales are tiny.
As an 06 Sonata owner, I agree. I'm also a straight shooter. I will say that the 06 Sonata is not an Accord or Camry. It, however, an acceptable facsimile to many reasonable people. I say the Sonata is "just about like an Accord or Camry". Reasonable people will both agree and disagree to that statement. Friends that own A&C see little difference in the overall cars. That's good enough for me, but I can understand if some people disagree. Where the Sonata really shines is on price. No reasonable person can citicize the low price of the Sonata (or any car), yet even that is criticized. Sonata owners are criticized for taking a chance on buying a car that only had a 1 year track record. Yes, I did take a calculated risk. In 5 years, I will end up feeling like either an idiot or a genius. So far, with every month that goes by, I am feeling smarter and smarter!
Camry.. 10-12% of 430,000 units.. Net: 380,000 units
Accord.. 4-5% of 370,000 units.. Net: 355,000 units
It's neck and neck at best last year.
Ahh BTW, both the Corolla and the Civic have passed the Accord in sales this year as it ages.
1. Camry
2. Corolla
3. Civic
4. Accord
Camry: 14.0%
Accord: 2.1%
That puts the Camry marginally ahead, but practically neck and neck I guess.
I still think that the Accord was the benchmark leader in this segment for several years, before the 2007 Camry came along. It'll be interesting to see the eventual comparos between the 2007 Camry, 2007 Altima, and 2008 Accord.
If you consider sales as the measure of goodness, then still it would not take much for the '08 Accord to take the #1 position in the class, as kdhspyder pointed out.
Two shocking, to me anyway, points are that the Corolla 5+ yrs and aging is still growing it's sales ( fleets? possibly ) but also both C & C have passed the Accord and are moving upward aiming at the Camry. Now there would be a huge shock.
If oil continues upward there may not be enough small cars to go around. Ok an exageration.
If the Civic even comes close to the Corolla in sales, it will be a big achievement because the Corolla, like the Camry, is sold in large numbers to fleets. The biggest hit for Honda right now is the Fit--selling for list or even above.
The other bogey here is that the Sonata will be due for its mid-gen refresh in two years--not long after the new Accord debuts. The last mid-gen refresh on the Sonata resulted in all-new styling, refined engines, and many other tweaks. It would not take much to correct the deficiencies in the Sonata--the basic car is sound, and the 3.5L V6 is waiting in the wings for those who feel the need for speed. Something to think about in these futures discussions. There's also the new Altima, including the hybrid, and the Mazda6. Lots of possibilities here in the fight for the top of the mid-sized class.
The only caveat I would add to potential Hyundai buyers is one that has been covered quite a bit in this rather lengthy thread: Poor resale value. If you plan on keeping the car for the length of the 100,000 mile warranty, then it's an excellent buy. If you plan on selling it in 2-3 years for another car, you'd likely be better of getting something else.
Myself, I "cut corners" on my last few automotive purchases to save money, and more recently was in a position where I didn't have to "compromise" with a Fusion or a Sonata. Perhaps if Hyundai or Ford had a six-speed manual they would have received more consideration. In any case, I bought the Accord EX V6 6MT. They can currently listed at Carsdirect.com for just over $3000 less than MSRP. Still a premium over the Hyundai, but probably not as much as some people think. If shifting yourself is your thing, the smoothness of the Honda six-speed might be well worth the price.
You are right about the Fit, but Civics are still going quite high in my area - @ MSRP or with a small discount. There is a lot of buzz about the new Civic. Although it may now be number two in sales, its clearly the class leader in the segment, as is the Camry in its segment.
Very good post, unbiased.
Here's my take on re-sale value:
Never accept "average" or "book value" offers! Why would anyone want to do that? :confuse:
Average re-sale value is for statisticians, used car dealers, and insurance companies. It's not for owners. All used cars sell in a range. Would you rather get high, average, or low? Duh??? If you trade in, you usually get low dollar. If you take good care of the car, be patient, and sell to a private individual, you can get top dollar. Top dollar for a "low re-sale value" car usually overlaps cars with "good re-sale value". I have always been fortunate to get top dollar when I sold my old cars, and that's what I expect to get when I sell my 06 Sonata.
Plus, when I'm unloading a car its usually for a reason--I could not in good conscience sell some of the cars we've had to other people. They looked nice cosmetically, but...major mechanical problems. Dealers didn't care.
The new Camry surprises me each time I see it in person, its more attractive in real life than in pictures, which can exaggerate the angles. Yesterday, took my ma to breakfast and to the Toyo dealership for service on her '02 Camry. Not a car aficianado, looking at it from the front/side, she pointed to a Magnetic Grey CE and commented, "I really like the new Avalon". After correcting her, she promptly asked me when I felt it would be financially prudent to unload the '02 and get the new Camry...
My point is that cars like the Camry and Accord, which have 20+ year histories of happy customers...sometimes these buyers don't even consider other models, especially the non-enthusiasts. This, I feel, is the challenge presented to the Sonata and Fusion, in particular.
An aside- It's a personal thing, but this is also the first Camry since the Gen 3 that I think actually looks good in Silver, owing to the character lines down the side. The slabbier sides of the Gen 4 and Gen 5 looked so damn appliance like in light colors. I'm starting to see more and more '07 Camrys, and the model mix is more varied than I expected. Seems to be quite a few V6s and SEs (both V6 and 4s) in the NJ/Philly area....
~alpha
I thought the CE and LE looked boring in silver, but maybe alloys would dress it up a bit. I saw a medium green color the other day that I thought was quite handsome.
An added issue is that the Camry name has been around for about 23 calendar years (83-07) and the Sonata nearly as long- 17 calendar years, but '05 marked the first Sonata that really ever posed a threat to the Camry and Accord.
Time shall tell. I still like the Sonata very much, even though my last rental left me stranded.
~alpha