Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Was just relying to the other persons post. Indicated not too much fun to drive. Yeah, lots of people could care less about driving or their cars. As for kids, don't have any. Climbing a mountain, I would likely die of a heart attack, or fall off the dang thing. Golf is a good walk wasted.

    If I was comparing the drive experience which a Camry offers, I would say, using the 2000 Camry as a reference point, it is not all that bad. Seems to corner better than most people would expect a softer riding sedan. Feedback as to what is going on down there at the wheels is not all that great, but you get an idea what is going on. If compared to most domestics, it is the same or a little better. Feels a bit like an Olds FWD car I had in 1987, which actually cornered well. Turning radius a bit large on the Camry. Springing ain't so bad, especially when new. I think they are using Macpherson's all around. Pretty confident on the road. Pleasant for long and short drives. Not exciting. Not a bad choice in a car, especially if you have a second one for play.
    Most people would be more than happy with the overall experience. I guess some Mazda6 or BMW owners may fall asleep at the wheel though. :shades:
    -Loren
    P.S. I think you can take your kids to a local golf course here, which is on a mountain side. Kinda get all three things done at once. ;)
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    All midsize cars:

    *Return to 5mph bumpers

    *Return to mechanical operation (no computer needed to operate engine)

    *Improved owner servicability. Easy to change oil, spark plugs, belts, hoses, etc.

    *Eliminate crumple zone, add welded tube frame cage, and 5 point seat belts.

    *Annual IHS contest to determine cheapest car to repair after a 15mph frontal impact.

    All wishful thinking, but at least the manufacturers should be trying harder. :mad:
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    Good point about the IIHS studies. However, IIHS is focused on occupant safety. The ISO (Insurance Services Office), which classifies cars for physical damage primarily focuses on vehicle damage. Crumple zones are "good" for occupants, usually not "good" from a vehicle cost to repair view.

    I think most modern cars meet the old 5 mph bumper standard. That standard said no damage to certain items, such as radiator, head lights, tail/brake lights etc. It had nothing to do with the $ cost to repair a car after a 5 or less mph collision. That standard was introduced for the 1973 model year and was scrapped in a decade or so. Those bumpers actually resulted in more damage than before. The bumper pistons caused more $ damage if they were hit on an angle as is the case of most rear end collision or parking lot fender benders.

    The plastic bumper covers, not the bumpers themselves, of the last many years adds significantly to the repair costs
    for minor speed contacts with other vehicles. A scratch in the plastic cover, changing its color, can mean a few hundred bucks.

    Most any car will be totaled if the impact speed is 15 mph or higher. Forget about repairing a car if it has been in a 15 mph collision at the instant of impact.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Actually, Car and Driver clocked the automatic Accord V-6 at exactly 6.6 sec to 60 MPH. I believe Motor Trend found the exact same result. Car and Driver also puts the Passat at 0-60 in 5.9 sec.
  • sardonic_ninnysardonic_ninny Member Posts: 25
    some guy said somethign about an inline six.
    Inline six's are incredible engines,
    I've never known a car with an inline six that didnt perform well.
    They transfer to the transmittion so well because of the way they are oriented which means alot less wasted gears and cranks and drives etc.
    I vote inline six engines for everything.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I vote inline six engines for everything.

    That ain't happening because it means long hoods and rear wheel drive.

    Hey, those aren't really bad things, are they? :)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I've never known a car with an inline six that didnt perform well.

    You never drove a Dodge Coronet or Plymouth Duster with the Slant Six, did you? ;)

    At least they looked better than the new Sebring!
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Instead of that Sebring thing, Chrysler could have reintroduced the Duster or Dodge Demon, with a slant six. Though engines. Actually, any good six with a tranny combo which would produce gas mileage in the 32 MPG range, in a car about the size of the old Dart/Duster/Demon would be cool. Something in a car as good looking as these old cars would be welcomed. No need for cars which look Euro or Japanese, come on Chrysler, you are the company which produced the 300 and Magnum. Unfortunatly, it has been all downhill since then. The Charger, the Caliber, oh no - no.

    One word for Chevy = Nova ! And inline 6, RWD Nova.
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Slant six is a legend for being a long lasting engine.
    -loren
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Good points. Regarding price, those are the average as tested prices. A Camry LE V6 plus VSC, an Accord LX V6, or a Camry Hybrid can be had for $1000s less than the tested versions, and would expectedly score the same, given that all performance and mechanical features (down to tire size) would remain the same.

    And on the converse, the MSRP on the Camry LE 4 that scored the same as the Fusion and one point ahead of the Sonata V6.. is about 2-3 grand less than the as tested MSRP of those two. Finally very few consumers will actually be able to pick up a Sonata V6 for 16K... thats a lot of eligibility only rebates... carsdirect.com using the Philadelphia area, is showing the '06 GLS V6 with no options at a "Target Price" of $18,200.

    ~alpha
  • sardonic_ninnysardonic_ninny Member Posts: 25
    this is true. However your forgetting one KEY element.
    Those are american cars.
    Thus, it doesnt really matter what engine you put in it, the tuning will suck and it'll guzzle gas.
    Also, i think they were both real heavy
  • sardonic_ninnysardonic_ninny Member Posts: 25
    hah, yah I donno, That sounds good to me?
    But the Honda V6 hoods are already quite long compared to the four cylinder engines.

    You could always go the way of the old Volkswagon and put it in the back. Or go ferarri style and have a mid mounted engine.
    hah. yeahh right...
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    How does 30MPG sound. They could be tuned to 30MPG back when.

    No, a brand new Dart, around the same size and weight -would not be heavy then or now, and an inline brand new six would be cool. Take that chassis and use it for the Challenger or 'Cuda.
    Then drop an eight in there and blow the doors off the competition.
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Corvair coupe, mid-engine, or a Fiero GT. I dare you GM. OK, things went terribly wrong the first time around. But those cars were getting so much better just before their demise. Oh well, just a weird dream.
    -Loren
  • sardonic_ninnysardonic_ninny Member Posts: 25
    yeah..
    Everything about mid engine screams enjoyment to me though.
    Even if they exploded alot not to mention you need wicked AC.
    Less weight infront just means much much much much much,(cant emphasize how MUCH) better the handling would be.
    Its like steering a scooter, you wouldnt WANT powersteering cause it'd be so light.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    The old Chrysler slant six couldn't be beat. I had a '63 Valiant convertible, slant six, and my parents had a new '68 Fury III with the 383 (2bbl). The morning of a six inch snow storm we went out to clean off the cars, especially off the convertible top, and start up the cars. That old slant six fired up before the new 383 (which I also thought was a great engine.) Legend has it that the slant six could last through many car bodies (rusting out, if you know what I mean). The old 318 was also a sturdy engine.

    But both those engines gave lousy mpg by today's standards....Maybe with fuel injection, computerization, etc they'd be OK for mpg. I think I got about 18 mph in the 3 speed stick in the Valiant around town, but I was about 19. Probably would get better mileage today. ;)
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    43/57 weight distribution. On a mid-engine.

    Any way, back to sedans. Has anyone actually seen the Chrysler Sebring yet? Any hope at all that it looks better than the photos? I hope so. Too bad the Dart did not return. Gone are the good smaller American cars. That said, the Fusion is not bad looking. The FiveHundred is a bit dull though. A Fairlane 500 would have been cool. Can you imagine the guys at the drag strip with a FiveHundred :D Yeah, I know a capable car. Actually more so than the Impala, if you go by the car reviews. Both are not overly stylin'.
    -Loren
  • sardonic_ninnysardonic_ninny Member Posts: 25
    yah
    kids these days
    and, those days
    have trouble keeping the rpms below 3200
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    For me the Fusion was the best value. With being between $1500 and $2000 less than a comparably equipped Accord V6 EX or a Camry V6 along with 0% financing, along with the fit/finish and quality on par with these two. Handling is better, road feel is better. In my opinion. Styling fits more with my personality.. in your face type of styling, yet classy.
    I hate to say it.. but for those of you in this room trying to convince us Honda/Toyota are "less expensive".. well for those who shop know this is untrue. Hands down a Sonata, Fusion, G6, Impala, Altima will be less than a comparably equipped Accord/Camry. This is general knowledge by car shoppers and enthusiasts around the net..
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I've never said the Accord was cheaper than car X, i've just posted prices...Accord LX V-6 is 21k
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Where did you see that price of 21K on an Accord V6? Looks pretty low to me. That would be a good deal on a Honda. Although Hyundai insists on giving away the Sonata V6 now with $2,500 off deals.
    -Loren
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    I saw a "like new" accord v6 (2004) with nav selling for $17-18k around here it just has a lot of miles and sports that lived-in interior feel . In fact, that is the most common price for an accord thats not at a honda dealer wearing a "certified pre-owned" badge.

    Whoever keeps saying fusion has style inside needs to remember its siblings the Mercury Milan and Lincoln Zyph... :blush: I ment Mkz. :shades: IMO the Fusion looks good outside but it doesn't translate well into the inside of the vehicle. The Milan and the Mkz have that down. Hopefully the milan and fusion (and nearly other vehicle on that mazda6 platform) also get fords new 3.5l v6 like the Mkz.
  • 150mphclub150mphclub Member Posts: 316
    good question. I purchased an 06 Passat 3.6L in January. It has been 100% trouble free. Fit and finish are outstanding. It will pass a semi on a two lane road faster than you can blink your eyes, and I am getting about 33 mpg highway where I never drive less than 70 mph, unless I am blocked by that semi for a few seconds.
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    Lucky you! I am afraid to pass a semi for various reasons. The biggest is the brittle paint!! I'm afraid if something pops up and his the car, the paint is gone. If i got a door ding, i can tell because the paint comes off even with my stubby nails (and its white paint :cry: )! The other is a personal problem.

    Glad you're enjoing your passat! Do you feel the the throttle response on tap or is yours delayed?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The number of posts on a forum might not be the best indicator. With just about 100000 units on the road there seems a few posters here keeping the discussion alive and serveral responding to those posts. It's a good discussion and one that needs to be observed but there are actually more posters in the Camry forum reporting no such problems.

    The Camry is new and has a high profile as the leader. It should expect to be scrutinized closely.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,599
    The few out of all those affected who are able to find a forum like Edmunds and find this particular thread and post on it are representative of a lot more people driving who have the problem. I almost asked a lady at the coffee stop this morning if hers had a problem. I'm going to start asking because a lot of them would be easily put off by a dealer with "All of them do that. It's normal."

    >high profile as the leader. It should expect to be scrutinized closely.

    Agree.

    And they should have perfected the product before putting it into production. Customers should not be beta testers.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • tinatinatinatina Member Posts: 388
    Hello,

    You need go to the dedicated Honda Prices Paid Thread. It is noted that Honda has a $750 factory-to-dealer incentive (not a cash rebate) on the sedans. On coupes its $1,000. The dealer can elect to pass on all of these incentives to you, part, or none. In addition, there is a 3% Holdback on the MSRP of Hondas. As a result, the Accord LX V-6 can be had for $21,000 (and possibly even lower) and thegraduate was posting a recent price on that model from that thread.

    I just bought an SE 4 auto and got a discount of nearly $4,000 off of MSRP here in CA. When comparing it to the 2007 Camry LE auto 4 (and adjusting for alloy wheels and a c/d changer) - I saved about $2,000 OTD. The only difference is that the Camry is a new model (2007) and it has one additional airbag.
  • fsowirlesfsowirles Member Posts: 195
    I vote inline six engines for everything.

    That ain't happening because it means long hoods and rear wheel drive.


    What???? I had a 2002 Volvo S80 with a twin turbo I-6. Front wheel drive and the hood was shorter than my Camry.
  • fsowirlesfsowirles Member Posts: 195
    I said Passat not Phaeton!! A passat weighs 3576 pounds as a 3.6 without 4motion is a serious rocket! I think you should recheck your numbers...
    Going by edmunds, the passat should reach o-60 quicker than the Camccordtimanatafulanibulant6 at 6.6seconds. I never knew the passat had theses credentials !!


    According to Edmunds' road test...the Camry 3.5 V6 does 0-60 in 6.5 That is faster than 6.5 where I come from and a fully loaded Camry SE V6 is about $7k less than a comparably equipped Passat.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Hello hearter, welcome. I moved your post to a place where you are more likely to get some help. Here's the link: hearter, "Pontiac Grand Am: Problems & Solutions" #60, 28 Jun 2006 9:33 am.

    Good luck - hope someone has some ideas for you.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    11790 of 11808 Advice on v6 accord LX automatic '06 by gerbrio Jun 27, 2006 (8:22 am)
    Bookmark | Reply | E-mail Msg
    Hi guys, I'm a first time buy and I need some help. I got a quote for an accord v6 LX automatic '06 for about 21000. You guys think this is a good deal? I'm in southern cal. How much should I expect to pay for ttl? Also should I pay for the alarm system that comes from the dealership or is there one that comes with the car. Last, am I supposed to bring insurance in when I buy it so I can drive out with the car? Thanks a million.


    Like they said, check out the prices paid forum. Honda's aren't overpriced like many say they are. You don't pay invoice anymore (but often $1,000 or more below), much less sticker!
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    As a result, the Accord LX V-6 can be had for $21,000 (and possibly even lower) and thegraduate was posting a recent price on that model from that thread.

    Does that include side air bags, ESC, and alloy wheels? If so, it's a pretty fair deal.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Every Accord V6 includes those things.

    ~alpha
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    I know. I was actually comparing XLE v6 to the 3.6 Passat. But from what i've seen in the passat probs & solutions, the passat has a nice ride and interior. But many of them are :lemon: s. So i guess saving like $5k by getting a camry is ok. I wish the passat would be cheaper...
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    For 2006, honda gave the accord lx V6 a standard power moonroof too!
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    For 2006, honda gave the accord lx V6 a standard power moonroof too!

    Can you buy the V6 without a moon roof? Surely you can, because that could be a deal killer.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    yes, that is also a 6-disc in dash CD changer, Moonroof, VSA, ABS w/EBD, Front, Side, AND curtain airbags, 17" alloys, and (as they say on TV) much much more! The Accord LX V6 could be the steal many people wish they could get on a Honda. Too bad lots of people post propaganda that says otherwise, and this is true of people talking about EVERY car. Some talk of how "people notice that you can get a car well built like a Honda and you don't have to pay for it."

    Well, you can get the best built car (interior, as well as a sound long-term-reliability/resale record) for closeout prices.
  • tinatinatinatina Member Posts: 388
    Yes, all those items are included on the LX V-6, in addition to the moonroof and the cd changer.

    ESC is actually named Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA) with traction control by Honda.

    The side air bags are standard features across all Hondas for 2006.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    No, all V-6s have a moonroof...although at 6'4", I don't have a problem with my moonroof, and actually can move my seat upwards 2 inches and not hit the roof. Only the tallest-of-torsos should have a problem with this.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    ESC is actually named Vehicle Stability Control by Honda.

    I'm usually not a stickler, but in a Honda (Odyssey, CR-V, Accord V-6, etc...) it's VSA - Vehicle Stability Assist. VSC is on Toyota models...just thought I'd share. I'm not trying to sound like a pest. :)
  • tinatinatinatina Member Posts: 388
    You are too quick. I actually just corrected before you reposted. Actually its Vehicle Stability Assist with traction control. :)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Haha...toucher... (to be read : too-SHAY...not TUCH-ur):)

    I'm just nit-picking ;) . I'm glad the forum settled down somewhat!
  • tinatinatinatina Member Posts: 388
    I know. I hope to read more about the Nissan Altima and the redesigned Accord in the next several months. I was suprised to hear that the Altima is coming out in December. Did I read correctly? I've been out of this thread for awhile. I've been hanging out at the dedicated Accord threads. If you like action though, go to the Camry Woes thread. Pretty hillarious if you ask me how some elect to respond to others.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I'm gonna check out the Camry thread now!
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    And they should have perfected the product before putting it into production. Customers should not be beta testers.

    Please name any auto that was perfect from vehicle No 1.

    Your's one view certainly but more likely scenario is the one that there are a very few Camry's with true problems in relation to the overwhelming numbers of vehicles without problems.

    In addition many of the performance issues, not the manufacturing errors, may have been in fact partly caused by the drivers themselves not understanding that the machines are different than they were 10 yrs ago. This isn't beta testing, it's progress.

    Very few if any products, certainly no auto, will be perfect 'right out of the box'. No auto has ever been. To expect immediate perfection is unrealistic.

    Just as I am a proponent of Camry's and most vehicles from Toyota thus I do cut them some slack, I do also recognize from our previous exchanges that you have no love for Toyota and wouldn't mind them falling flat with this model. I sincerely doubt it though.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    The problem is that Toyota is still selling Camrys, some of which they know have a major defect.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I'm glad the forum settled down somewhat!

    Me too!! ;)

    Thanks to everyone - it's a much more pleasant environment in here and that's the way to welcome new members. All that squabbling is intimidating to most of them, and it also means posts get lost in the chaos.

    Anyway, I really, really appreciate everyone's cooperation. :)

    and P.S. grad - just because your post started out as a "correction", I gotsta tell ya -- it's touché ... heh. :shades:
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    No auto has ever been. To expect immediate perfection is unrealistic.

    I agree, but maybe the folks paying a premium to buy a Camry over competitors expect perfection, based on Toyota's legendary reputation for quality. It's not a realistic expectation, but not everyone is realistic.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Toyota Camry LE 2.4 ($21,080)
    Toyota Camry Hybrid ($30,667)
    Toyota Camry XLE 3.5 ($29,839)

    LE Acceleration: 3/5 (0-60: 9.6 seconds)
    Hybrid Acceleration: 4/5 (0-60: 8.4 seconds)
    V6 XLE Acceleration: 4/5 (0-60: 7.1 seconds)


    As expected, Camry Hybrid's acceleration is smack in the middle between the 4 cyl. and V6.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I gotsta tell ya -- it's touché

    Thank you! I was biting my tougue! :)
This discussion has been closed.