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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    Many folks will notice that the Sonata is quieter than the Accord and Camry.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    Hyundai might not have the status and prestiege, but i think if you blinded folded some people who drives variety of cars or took out the Hyundai Symbol out and told them this is a high end car like a audi a4 more than the average may not deny it. Post # 626
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    If a luxury sedan didn't have more features than a mainstreamer, it wouldn't be a luxury sedan

    Not entirely true and also not the point I was attempting to make. A lot of features, gadgets, toys, added to a vehicle does not make it a luxury sedan. A true luxury sedan usually has a few more accessories and toys, but also a higher level of development, refinement and cachet that is not present in its lower priced brethren. Otherwise, how could the manufacturer justify the higher prices. ;)

    On a side note, not all features and accessories on luxury sedans are worth it. Just ask BMW 5 and 7 series drivers how well they liked the iDrive system. Most owners of that accessory would have gladly deleted it if possible.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    But to the another poster.

    We know you never stated that equipement was NOT important, no one ever said you did. What we simply are saying is that it takes more than a quiet ride for a car to equate to "Entry-Level" status.

    Re-read my posts and you'll see.

    Many cars in this class have quieter rides than the Accord and Camry. For example the Buick LaCrosse, and for years the Buick LaSabre and Century were quieter cars than the Camcords, but they weren't considered more luxury than the Camcords. The Accord, in particular has NEVER won awards for quietness. As a matter of fact, most Hondas aren't the quietest cars in their classes.

    Your point (or so it seemed) was that folks would equate the Sonata with cars like the Audi A4 and A6 more likely than say an Accord or Camry simply because it has a quieter ride.

    The point I was trying to make is that that's probably NOT the case because the Sonata lacks features that the Accord and Camry have. And thus the Accord and Camry, while somewhat louder than the Sonata, would probably be considered more in line with near luxury than the Sonata.

    The way you made the statement

    "I don't believe people who look for a luxury car have power seating above nvh level. adding an equipment any car company can do, but making it darn quiet and vibrationless can take many years to perfect."

    Made it seem as though a quiet ride is MORE important than features and that is probably not the case.

    Because afterall, the Acura TL is one of the best selling (if not the best selling) Entry Lux car in the class.

    And the ES330 and other cars in that class have quieter rides. Also the Audi A4 and A6 are amongst the quietest cars in this class, but they aren't the sales leaders either.

    And also, simple things like thick glass panels, more sound insulation, etc. can be added to a car over the years if necessary. Its not like the Sonata is some Maybach and the CamCords are Mack Trucks.

    Its quieter, but chances are folks would probably compare those three cars and see that the Sonata is missing some more upscale features than say the Camcords.

    Not knocking what you say, just saying it takes more than a quieter ride to be considered a luxury car. The Accord and Camry don't lack the quiteness of the Sonata as much as the Sonata in LXV6 trim lacks the features these cars have.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    You'd notice I have stated that it takes a combination of things to equate to luxury sedan status.

    Quietness is not the only thing. It takes a combo of features, luxury admendites (power seats, memory seats, some even have power tilt/telescoping steering wheels), overall interior refinement AND quietness to equate to this class.

    NVH levels might be good on the Sonata, but that's about the only thing it has in common with a luxury sedan, and of course the STRONG array of safety equipment standard. But as far as the other things in this class a sedan would need to compete with the Entry-Lux groups, NONE of them have the stuff to make it.

    In my very first statement, I talked about how NONE of these cars had the interior materials, feature content and so called "Prestige" to be considered in that class of cars. The word "refinement" might be in that first statement somewhere too. Seems like you and I are on the same page my friend :D
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    image
    image

    They do look similar, don't they?
    But I don't see pontiac's signiture grille or the oversized headlamp.
    I really think this could be a kia.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    But even those rims look like the G6 base model rims..

    image

    The only thing that doesn't line up is the Front ends.

    Everything from the rims, shape of the door design, and even the black outside mirrors match up almost 100 percent.

    I think its a G6 that's been photoshopped a bit.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    You mention buick lacrosse and actually those cars are one dimensional at best. Not much innovative equipment, and have absolutely no handling abilities, bad design inside and out. I don't think the Hyundai sonata is that bad.

    Other than equipment aspect you have truly not pointed out how the camry or accord are considered to have any aspect of luxury. I don't think reliability and that thousands of people own the car give it a luxurious incentive. And also to add, how many cars now can come with navigation?? the mazda 3 by next year rumor has it will offer navigation for their small cars. But tell me how many cars in this price segment wants to or has great NVH?

    I have straight up admitted the accord has a beautiful interior, and prob most luxurious in its class. But to me its design and nvh are just what to expect for a mid size car of its price these days. But we will see what their next cars will do(which is hard for camry and honda makers) because then why would anyone buy the say TL or TSX when the Accord is just as quiet(its a dilema the honda acura company has with itself)

    LAstly i'm telling you that car is the G6, you know preduction cars the front and back all look the same usually .
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    All this talk about equipment begs the question, what kind of "luxury" equipment is standard in all Accords, Camrys,and Sonatas? I think if you look at that you'll find it's the Accords and Camrys that are lacking.

    Another thing, which was hinted at above, is that there is a reason the Accord must offer dual zone climate control, power passenger seats, and other "luxury" features: it is the top of the line for Honda sedans. The Camry is not the top of the line Toyota sedan, nor is the Sonata the top of the line Hyundai sedan. The Accord has to span a wide range, all the way up to the Acura line. The Avalon and Azera--and Maxima for Nissan--fill the near-luxury gap for the other automakers.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    Just because the Accord is the top of the line sedan in Honda's lineup doesn't mean it has to offer these features. It is Honda's top sedan, but that doesn't mean much. The top sedans at Toyota, Nissan, and soon Hyundai are larger cars than the midsize one they have now. Its not so much feature content with those brands as it is sheer size differences, because afterall, there are still folks out there who want a car that is as big as a 300, Crown Vic, LaSabre, etc.

    The last generation Avalon XL had manual climate control vs. the Camry XLE's automatic version. So its not so much features for those top cars as it is size.

    But here is another spin on it, I bet by the time the Camry, Altima and other cars get redesigns, they'll have stuff like dual-zone climate controls and power passenger seats etc. regardless of whether the higher up cars have it or not.

    The Accord doesn't have to offer these features because one could easily go to an Acura dealership and get a TSX or TL and get similar stuff and more.

    Also, if we were to go by your theory, then it still wouldn't work because Toyota offered Navigation on the Camry before Honda did on the Accord. If Honda REALLY had to stay more competitive because its the top sedan, then the Accord would have gotten Navigation back in 2001 when it was refreshed, instead of getting it in 2003 when it was redesigned a year after the Camry got it. The Accord would have came with power front seats back in 1998 instead of getting them in 2001. The Camry has had power front seats since 1997. I mean afterall, a navi system was added to the Altima refresh and the Maxima refresh. It could have been done. Especially if you consider that the Acura TL has had one since 1999.

    Also, all of these cars do have luxury cars above them Acura TL vs. Accord ES330 vs. Camry and soon Azera vs. Sonata.

    You left out the fact that the Avalon is a full-size sedan vs. the Camry's midsize. That's why Toyota, in essence has the Avalon. It goes after the buyers that would want a car that can be as luxurious as a ES330, but offers more size.
    The Maxima, while not quite full-size, is almost a full-size car an is bigger in some dimension than the Altima. The Azera is supposedly larger than the Sonata. Yes they may offer more features, BUT they are bigger cars as well.

    Honda simply doesn't feel it needs a full-size sedan in this country. Afterall, even the top of the line RL isn't full-sized. Honda's have always been amongst the smaller cars in the classes. So it seems its not a matter of having content, as it is a matter of Honda not wanting a full-size sedan. Because, the Accord is one of the smaller sedan in this class anyway. If Honda thought they could do well with a full-size car, I'm sure they'd come out with one.

    Those flagship Avalons, Azeras, Amatis, and Maximas compete more with the LaSabres, Crown Vics, 300/300Cs of the world than say entry-lux cars like Acura TL and ES330.

    The Sonata is a "large" car by comparison sakes, but its not as big as say an Avalon, 300, and other cars in the "full-size" categories and it won't be as big as the Azera either, probably.

    And to add to this disscusion, what features are the Accord and Camry lacking outside of Safety features (which we have mentioned) and maybe the MP3 player?

    We already mentioned the lack of safety stuff and I've mentioned the lack of fog lights on top of the line Accords, but Camry XLE and SE models have fogs.

    Nothing as far as luxury is left out on those cars that the Sonata has over them. Now safety is where the Sonata has them beat.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    Styling is subjective, so your opinion of the LaCrosse being a "bad design inside and out" is about as relevant as my opinion that the "Sonata's interior is bland at best, but high quality"

    So that's awash.

    But the LaCrosse does have some handling capabilities over the current Camry. Its also quiter than both the Accord and Camry, just like the Sonata is.
    Never said it was as good as those cars, but I stated that if a quiet ride is so important to luxury buyers, the LaCrosse would be on the entry-level list as well.

    "Other than equipment aspect you have truly not pointed out how the camry or accord are considered to have any aspect of luxury. I don't think reliability and that thousands of people own the car give it a luxurious incentive. And also to add, how many cars now can come with navigation?? the mazda 3 by next year rumor has it will offer navigation for their small cars. But tell me how many cars in this price segment wants to or has great NVH?"

    Well, if you'll look back over some previous posts of mine (and Ctalk), you'll notice that we state it takes a combination of things for these cars to be even considered entry-lux cars.

    The Sonata, as you mentioned has the safety features down, as well as the quite NVH levels.

    So similarly, outside of being a bit quiter and offering all the safety stuff standard, you haven't pointed out what makes the Sonata more luxurious and have more "fooling power" per se over the Camcords?

    Interior? Nope.
    Interior materials on par with the TL, ES330, Audi sisters, Nope?
    NVH levels, yes. But other than that, you really haven't proved much yourself.

    The Accord and Camry on the other hand, have features like power front seats, and the Accord in particular offers dual-zone climate control. As well as stuff that many cars in this class already have, such as Navigation systems. Features that most near-luxury cars have. The Sonata has yet to come out with a Navi system in this country.

    Who offers navigations systems you ask? Honda does with the Accord, and in a month the Civic, Nissan does with the Altima SL/SE and Maxima, Mazda ALREADY in the U.S. does with the Mazda3 and for 06 the Mazda6. Toyota does with the Matrix, Camry XLE/SE and Avalon. Pontiac does with the Grand Prix. The Ford Five Hundred Limited has one as for 06 as well. The 06 Passat (at dealers now) has it optional on 2.0t and 3.6 models. Their are some others, but I'm too tired to mention them.

    Quiet cars: Camry, LaCrosse (quieter than ES330), LaSabre, previous Century, VW Passat.

    As I have mentioned, it takes more than a quiet ride (Sonata) or a few extra features (Camcords) to be considered entry-lux in this country. It takes a combination of things from quiteness, features and luxury amendities (power seats, power folding mirrors, some have power tilt/telescoping steering wheels, smart key, etc., etc.), prestige, and overall higher levels of refinement to be able to compete with those cars, and sometimes it requires a bit more power as well. Acura TL has 270hp, Accord 240. Altima 250, Maxima 265. G35 can get up to 298hp!!

    In this class, about the ONLY car that comes close is the new Passat 3.6. It has just about every thing a TL, ES330 or G35 would have and more and on top of that it has 280hp.

    Now, power doesn't apply to them all because BMWs have lower power ratings than most other cars (but usually are faster for some reason)

    Not once have I mentioned reliability, so that's a moot point.
    If reliability was a big factor for those cars, BMW and M-B would have went out of business years ago.

    Also sales mean nothing to me. The Mazda3 is a better car than the Civic is in most ways, but the Civic outsells it 3 to 1. The Accord and Camry are the two best sellling cars in this class, but I still think Hyundai is a more compelling value for this class than those cars are. Also, the Mazda6 has oftened been rated higher in comparison test than the Camry has been, but it doesn't sell nearly as well. Heck, even the Altima and Galant have beaten the Camry in a test or two and they don't sell as well. Again, sales don't mean much to me, if anything at all.

    "I have straight up admitted the accord has a beautiful interior, and prob most luxurious in its class. But to me its design and nvh are just what to expect for a mid size car of its price these days. But we will see what their next cars will do(which is hard for camry and honda makers) because then why would anyone buy the say TL or TSX when the Accord is just as quiet(its a dilema the honda acura company has with itself) "

    Yes, the Accord does have a nice interior, but I dislike the Beige with the wood trim. Also, your comments on the design of the Accord is just as subjective as my thoughts of the Sonata's interior. The Accord, while some may call confusing, to me has a better design than say the Sonata, Camry or even Altima (which I drive BTW.) and that's subjective.

    And you aren't telling me something I don't already know...I'm aware that the spy pic above is a Pontiac G6, um a Base Pontiac G6 V6 as a matter of fact ;)

    You think that if someone took of the badges and allowed someone to ride in this...
    image

    They'd think it was this...
    image

    Neither do I really think this..
    image
    Stands a real chance either (as I mentioned)

    Folks may very well say, The Sonata is an "awfully quiet car, on levels with Audis" but I bet they won't mistake it for an Acura, much less an Audi because it would lack features, mateirals and overall refinement of those cars. Similarly I don't expect the Camcord to be able to do that either.
  • janeencjaneenc Member Posts: 29
    Is it possible for you to check out another forum? Your exhausting! :P
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, don't you have a job, or a home, or kids??? :)

    The Accord doesn't have to offer these features because one could easily go to an Acura dealership and get a TSX or TL and get similar stuff and more.

    So that means the Sonata doesn't need to offer these features because one can easily go into a Hyundai dealership in the next few weeks and get an Azera.

    As to which features the Sonata has as standard in all trim lines that not all Accords and Camrys have, here's my shot at the list for the currently-available Accord, Camry, and Sonata. I've included safety-related features since they are significant (and sometimes costly options on other cars):

    * Shiftronic manumatic (on all automatic transmission cars)
    * Electronic Stability Control
    * Traction control
    * ABS
    * 4-wheel disc brakes
    * minimum 16" wheels
    * front-seat side airbags
    * side curtain airbags
    * front seat active headrests
    * leather-wrapped steering wheel and (on automatic tranny cars) shift knob
    * power heated mirrors
    * MP3 audio system with 6 speakers
    * jeweled projector-lens headlamps
    * 8-way adjustable driver's seat (with dual-arc height adjuster)
    * Split folding rear seat
    * Trip computer
    * Illuminated vanity mirrors
    * Map lights
    * Sunglasses holder
    * Power door locks
    * Remote locking and trunk release
    * Cruise control
    * Anti-theft alarm
    * Air conditioning with air filtration
    * 5-year, 60k mile bumper-to-bumper warranty
    * 10-year, 100k mile powertrain warranty
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Neither Sonata, Acord or Camry are luxury cars; why spend so much energy trying to defend the indefensible?

    They're all good cars, all include "luxury features" but nobody outside of the forum considers them luxury cars. i.e, is a Chevy equiped with the same features as a Caddy (just to keep if off the track of the of the above 3 for illustration) a "luxury car?"

    BTW, for those who think Acord is supremo, check out the Acord Problems & Solutions forum. There are plenty of complaints. The experience/complaints of actual owners is a more valuable opinion than a proud owner of brand "A" trashing brand "B."

    Each person in the market should consider Sonata, Acord & Camry. Compare the features, build quality and out the door price before deciding which car they want to buy. They should also look at the domestics. The bottom line for each buyer should be what they feel is the best bang for their buck. Forget that some dope in the neighborhood may be impressed with your car or may turn his nose up. He ain't paying the bill, you are. Buy what you think is the best value.

    Yes, talk with friends about the great value you got, encourage them to check out your car, but don't get so passionate that you get upset if a friend decides to buy a different car.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    no more expresso for you my friend.

    you took what i stated way out of context. I never even said that anyone would think that the sonata is a pure luxury car. But i did say it does have more fooling power that it is one compared to say the camcord, mainly because of the nvh and safety features.

    Also you show me a picture of the interior and tell me you don't think the sonata is better buttoned down than either the audi or accord. Of course the quality is not on the same par, but hyundai has done a magnificant job, to create a car and perceives quality and a certain luxury touch. I rather personally have a very nice buttoned down interior than one that has great materials but dont' look fitted tightly(having both is even better)(and also not fitted tightly can mean little noises to the car that can add up)

    I think its good if Honda wants power seating and dual climate, but i like the way hyundai instead focused on their costs on safety measures and nvh
  • janeencjaneenc Member Posts: 29
    My family,including my husbands, has a long list of what we consider to be car snobs. ;) We all love to drive new cars! Most of them have luxury cars.(we are not part of that group :P ) We have always owned the current competition...Toyota's or Honda's.(some of the others not to be mentioned) But having owned the current competition,when the time came to think about a new car,...Hyundai was a surprise to even consider. But after hours of research, I went for a test drive! I was really impressed by the overall value and quality. It didn't take long to decide. I took my new purchase to my brothers house(self-professed car snob ;) to pick up my kids. His co-worker was at his house doing business. My brother wanted to know whos car was in the drive and I told him it was mine. They looked it over inside and out,under the hood and in the trunk. Then took it for a spin. My brothers co-worker is in the market for a new car also, he said he had not even thought of looking at a Hyundai and is now going to give them another look. My brother could not believe the fit and finish. He was impressed with the handling and all of the added touches for such an awesome price. Is he an expert? No, but an auto enthusist...yes!! And owns and has owned many luxury cars, so I valued his two thumbs up greatly. Not that I needed his apporval. I already knew what other new Sonata owners know. Aswesome car... Awesome price!!! :shades:
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    great story, and like yourself i believe strongly it takes that one test drive to be very amazed. Thats why hyundai is offering a 25 dollars free test drive because they are that confident that one drive could make just about anyone looking for a mid size shocked by this car. In a couple of months there is no doubt in my mind i will be purchasing this car at a ridicously low price and quality undeserving to match that kind of price
  • witmanwitman Member Posts: 11
    Did anyone noticed that the majority of the people who post on this thread owns either a Hyundai or Kia?
  • janeencjaneenc Member Posts: 29
    we currently own 1 kia 1 hyundai, we recently had 2 toyotas. 7toyotas combined. 2 hondas and various others. Your point? I actually owned the competition. I'm not someone to offer an opinion having never had personal experience. :mad:
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    LOL

    I'm 19, no wife, no kids, and since its summer no job and no school ;)

    But I love cars.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    I Love cars to ;)
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    Ummm..

    "So that means the Sonata doesn't need to offer these features because one can easily go into a Hyundai dealership in the next few weeks and get an Azera. "

    And so that's my point, it doesn't have to, they just choose too. Nice try though ;)
    I bet Sonata will add some missing features when it gets a refresh. And if that's the case they might as well not even offer the Navigation system because the Azera will have it too.

    Just as I am sure Honda and Toyota are going to add all the safety equipment to their cars when they are redesigned.

    ABS is standard on all CamCards and Mazda6 models.
    And automatic equipped I4 models might have a manumatic, but its a four speeder vs. the Accord and Camry's 5spd ones.

    And like I said most of the stuff you have on that list is safety stuff, which most of us have already given the Sonata credit for, so that's nothing new.

    But the other stuff I'll give you credit for. Because those things are not available on the basic Accord DX, but most of them are on the Camry Standard. I also mentioned MP3 captibility as one of the Sonatas pluses.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    I have owned Fords, Chryslers, VWs, Mercurys and a Chevy. I now own 2 Hyundais, an 04 Sonata LX and an 05 Tucson LX AWD. The Hyundais have so far proven to be the best value for the money of all the vehicles and most trouble-free vehicles I have owned in my 35+ years of driving. So if you are trying to say that all the positive comments are being made by Hyundai owners, there might be a reason for those comments. Just don't try to characterize the comments as being from people who have not owned anything else and don't know any better. :P I think I have enough varied experience to make valid claims regarding the value of Hyundais as do most of the other posters in this forum. ;)
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    Expresso, I don't think so. :) I prefer a good ole glass of water ;) (joking)

    No, I don't think the Sonata is more buttoned down.
    Its boring and bland to me. The stereo looks cheap in comparison to the Audi, Accord or Camry. And the area below, where the climate controls looks like a pikacho or however you spell it. I don't find it looks more luxurious than any other car in this class either. But we agree to disagree on that ;)

    And for whomever stated checking into the Accord's problem forum. Well, any Problems forum is going to have just that, a particular group of folks who are having problems. No surprises there. The Camry has it share, and the Sonata will have its share as well. When you sell nearly 400K cars a year, some are going to have problems. Further, that is just a small sampling of owners and does not represent the Accord as a whole.

    And yes its good that each manufacture offers what they offer, if not there would no competition and that would be no fun.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    "When you sell nearly 400K cars a year, some are going to have problems. Further, that is just a small sampling of owners and does not represent the Accord as a whole."

    That is exactly what hyundai is trying to not do. There is no room for mistakes like that, and no excuses. I have read the hyundai forum with problems comapred to the accords and there are no comparisons. Even at the earlier accord thread theres alot of talks about rattling, even till the present day thread but people still buy them which is a mystery of its own kind
  • bjbird2bjbird2 Member Posts: 647
    Just to keep this forum interesting, here's some info on the 06' Passat just showing up at dealer's showrooms.

    http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2050803.005
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    Accord is not reliable because on Edmunds forums you see a lot of people complaining is not a valid reason. Edmunds forums only represent a small fraction of Accord owners. Saying Honda Accord is not reliable requires more conrete evidence and better research. All you can show is unstatisfied owners on Edmunds forums.

    No car maker can make a perfect set of cars. There are always going to be problems, with some vehicles.

    Both Honda and Toyota have been making quality cars for years. Like i said before their hard work in the past is paying off in sales and repeated buyers.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    be trying to avoid the problems that the current Accord and Camry face. But to that point, Hyundai right now has a bigger advantage:

    They don't make or sell as many Sonatas as Honda and Toyota do Camcords.
    If they were selling 400K cars, I'm sure they'd be more likely to face problems.
    But that's really no excuse of course.

    And wouldn't you think the Sonata would have fewer problems on here than say the Accord or Camry because afterall, The Sonata boards are no where near as popular as the Camcord boards (Accord especially) and thus you really won't see as many folks complaining there because right now there are fewer of you. But that will change as the car becomes more popular.

    Sure rattles on here might be a problem for many Accords and Camries, but who's to say Hyundai won't have its share of problems too, because no matter how hard you try and work to prevent them, something is bound to go wrong when you sell nearly 400K cars a year. That's truely inevitable.

    Name one car in this forum that hasn't had its share of problems, including the new Sonata.

    Further, by Consumer Reports long-term survey, the Accord and Camry are doing just fine.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    Lexus and audi cars have amazingly low problems even though how many cars they sell. Should it matter because they are high end cars? i don't think camcord really has an excuse, matter of fact every car company should make their cars with more care, cheap cars to even the most expensive (thats why ford has a disgusting reputation with its amassing recalls year after year)

    what is even more frustrating for a person like me who doesn't own a camcord at the current time even, is that year after year there is this rattling problem apparent(even if it is by a small percentage) and you would have thought at least after year one it would be fixed hands down, but for four straight years in its lifetime its been the same, thats not quality concerned in my books
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    Audis do not sell in high number and is a branch of VW. VW and Audi have had their share of electrical issues. Reliability is not a strong suite for most German cars. Also, Lexus ES330 owners have had problems with the transmission on Edmunds.com boards. Yet Lexus is still rated as one of the highest and most reliable luxury cars in the United States. Lexus is the best selling luxury car brand in this country, but Toyota's sells are much higher.

    Toyota is still rated high by most surveys in this country.

    MY2000 Maxima owners complained about squeeks, rattles, throttle control problems, tranny issues, loose trim and other issues, but the Nissan Maxima was rated the most reliable car in the midsize class according to Consumer Reports from the 90s up until 2003 I think. So just because many folks are complaining on Edmunds.com doesn't mean the cars aren't reliable. Consumer Reports would show otherwise.

    I have been at Edmunds.com since the 2000 Maxima hit the lots, I've seen all kinds of complaints.

    :)
  • autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    I'm 19, no wife, no kids, and since its summer no job and no school. But I love cars.

    And you have a great future writing about them! Thanks for your well-reasoned postings.
    :)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    So you believe that just because many of the standard features of the Sonata are safety-related and you and others have "already given credit for" them, we should igonore thost important features when comparing these cars?

    Good catch on the ABS, yes, that is standard on CamCords--I thought it was still optional on the low-end Camrys. However, you are wrong that most of these features are standard on the Camry. Here are the features standard on all Sonatas but not standard (or even available) on all Camrys:

    * Shiftronic manumatic (on all automatic transmission cars)
    * Electronic Stability Control
    * Traction control
    * 4-wheel disc brakes
    * minimum 16" wheels
    * front-seat side airbags
    * side curtain airbags
    * front seat active headrests
    * leather-wrapped steering wheel and (on automatic tranny cars) shift knob
    * heated mirrors
    * MP3 audio system
    * jeweled projector-lens headlamps
    * 8-way adjustable driver's seat (with dual-arc height adjuster)
    * Trip computer
    * Illuminated vanity mirrors
    * Remote locking and trunk release
    * Anti-theft alarm
    * 5-year, 60k mile bumper-to-bumper warranty
    * 10-year, 100k mile powertrain warranty
  • janeencjaneenc Member Posts: 29
    I always appreciate your post. I would like to mention to some of the Sonata haters that some of my favorite features aren't the safety features(although they give me piece of mind). I like the standard telescopic steering wheel, the sliding arm rest,the trunk remote,the auto-dimming mirror and the auto sensing air conditioner!These features on my LX don't have to be added to the bottom line. :P My OTD price was well below the current competition that I have "owned" in the past. Most of the negative comments that are in this forum come from people who have never even been inside a Hyundai dealership let alone behind the wheel of the product they continue to slam.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    I just returned from a vacation where my wife and I rented an early-2005 Hyundai Sonata V6 (we both normally drive VWs) - and I came away impressed - especially since Hyundai was a relative newcomer to the U.S. market around 10 years ago. The car was solidly put together (even the doors closed with a solid thunk - unlike the 2005 Ford Taurus we saw at the New York Auto Show - can you say, shake, rattle and roll?), the handling was good, and the car was relatively stabile at highway speeds around 70-80 mph. It was also roomy and comfortable as well. I told my wife, if this car is any indication, the 2006 model will be quite a success.

    Based on this drive - the Big Three better watch their backs, because even in the rental car market (much less the passenger car market), they are not safe. If they rest too comfortably on their rental-car laurels, Hyundai (and like competitors) will wind up pulling the rug out from under them (as well as eating their lunch) in short order... :shades:
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    will think the Hyundai is a great bargain. Some people will think that in and of itself make it a better car than the competition. I happen to think that the Accord is worth the $1500 more. So sue me. I value the Accord's front and rear double wishbone suspension, slick 5-speed manual, safety rating, reliability, etc. The Hyundai isn't a bad car and it's a good effort compared to the domestic competition. However, it has a bit to go before it will completely knock the socks off of "most" CamCord owners. Even those looking at an Altima or a Mazda6 would be hard-pressed to pick the Sonata because that buyer is looking on the sporty side of the spectrum. The Sonata is not sporty.

    You can think of it like this ... You have house "A" which was built buy a relatively new builder. It has great features (hardwoods, cathedral ceilings, tile bathrooms, etc) and it's a great price. House "B" is just as nice but a little more expensive. The difference is house "B" was built by a top-rated, BBB approved, contractor whereas house "A" was built by Billy Bob who lives down the street. From personal experience house "B" is the better buy even if it is more expensive.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    "It is statistically true that long term dependability correlates to initial quality. "

    I respectfully, but strongly disagree. This just isn't true,there is no correlation. In some case yes good initial quality also has good long term relablity.but there is no correlation. This is cognativie dissonance at its best!

    This is akin to going back 6 months in the stock market and being able to predict todays prices exactly, pretty easy to do. Now try going forward 6 months, not quite as easy :(\

    Good Luck.

    P.S. Take a look at J.D. Powers initial quality and Consumer reports long term reliability.
  • oldjoeoldjoe Member Posts: 132
    You state the nub of the arguement...if you want proven reliability and quality coupled with the highest resale value, then the Honda/Toyota autos lead the pack. if you are just looking for cheap transportation of still-questionable reliability and do not care about resale value, then maybe a Chevy, Mitsubishi, Isuzu, or Hyundai is for you. Depends upon how much money you want to spend for a reliable quality auto that will still be worth something when you trade it in. How many Hyundai owners continue to buy Hyundai...I'll bet the answer is very low.

    My Honda dealer's courtesy car is a 199? minivan with 170,000 miles. Still runs great, quiet and peppy...hmmm, wonder how it compares to a Hyundai with that many miles...seeing is believing.

    Check your money belt, test drive the cars and make your choice.

    Oh yes, auto mags agree that they use the Honda Civic as the benchmark auto to compare others to. To me trying to compare the Hyundai Sonata to a Honda Accord will only happen after about 100,000 miles. The Sonata has only half the welds the Accord does...hmmm, where is Hyundai cutting corners???

    Hyundai has 20 years of sub-standard autos to overcome...they may make it...the jury is still out!
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    If the Accord is worth the $1500 more, the Accord is worth more in the long run because of its high resale value. Which is a great advantage for people who tend to keep their cars for 3-5 years.

    Backy: Some of the features you posted are not standard on all models
    here is what the base model (GL) has:
    2.4-liter, DOHC, 4-cylinder engine
    - 5-speed manual transmission
    - Dual front airbags, front side-impact airbags and roof-mounted
    side-curtain airbags
    - Anti-lock Braking System (ABS)
    - Electronic Stability Control (ESC) with Traction Control System (TCS)
    - Front seat active head restraints
    - 16” steel wheels with Michelin® tires
    - Tilt, leather-wrapped steering wheel
    - Leather-wrapped shift knob (A/T only)
    - 4-wheel disc brakes
    - Remote keyless entry system with alarm
    - Power windows, locks and heated mirrors
    - AM/FM/CD/MP3 Audio System
    - Air conditioning
    - Cruise control
    - Cabin air-filtration system

    *People dont care about safety features. The Camry is still selling well, and it doesn't have side curtain airbags, traction control and esc standard on any models. It doesn't see to be a popular option people put in their Camry's.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    How many Hyundai owners continue to buy Hyundai...I'll bet the answer is very low.

    Actually, the opposite is true. I don't remember exactly what magazine it was (some auto business mag) but they reported that Hyundai actually has a very high retention rate on a par with or better than Honda and Toyota. That is another reason that many other manufacturers are taking Hyundai very seriously. Once you go Hyundai, you stay Hyundai. ;)

    Once I find the link to the article in question I will post it. :shades:

    Found it!

    Hyundai Retention Rate

    Hyundai Ranked #4 in Customer Retention by J.D. Power and Associates

    FOUNTAIN VALLEY, Calif., Dec. 20, 2004 -- In customer retention, the measurement of what percentage of vehicle owners purchase the same brand again, Hyundai vehicles were ranked by those surveyed as fourth in a recent study.

    According to the J.D. Power and Associates 2004 Customer Retention study, the overall industry average for customer retention was 48.4 percent but Hyundai was able to retain 57.6 percent of its current owners in 2004 and was one of only 10 brands that were able to exceed the industry average in this second year of the J.D. Power and Associates study.

    Among non-luxury brands, Hyundai finished in the top three. Hyundai also increased its customer retention rate from 54 percent in 2003 up to 57.6 percent in 2004.

    In addition to measuring customer retention rates, the study also analyzes the reasons consumer defect from the brand they own and are captured by other brands when they purchase a new vehicle. An important factor in defection is based on owners' experiences with previous vehicles. Owners often defect from their brand because they had problems with long-term durability, high maintenance costs or poor experiences with dealer service.

    Conversely, brands are often able to capture new customers with attractive rebates and incentive offers, better vehicle styling, more cargo capacity, high resale value and better fuel economy.

    "We are proud that Hyundai owners show their brand loyalty by choosing to buy another Hyundai vehicle nearly 60 percent of the time," said Bob Cosmai, president and CEO of Hyundai Motor America. "Once they experience the styling, comfort and durability of Hyundai vehicles, customers elect to buy another Hyundai. It is important to earn the respect of our customers and we are excited that our vehicles and our dealers are doing just that," he added.

    The J.D. Power and Associates 2004 Customer Retention Study is based on responses from more than 171,000 new vehicle buyers and lessees, of which 103,088 replaced a vehicle that was originally purchased new.

    Here's a link to the JD Powers report for all the details. Toyota was #1 in this study, but Hyundai beat out Honda!

    JD Powers report--pdf format

    Enjoy! It's always nice to have data to back up one's comments! :blush:
  • rgyiprgyip Member Posts: 43
    Your first argument is not supported at all, and quantified without research.

    http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2004/12/20/307447.html

    "According to the J.D. Power and Associates 2004 Customer Retention study, the overall industry average for customer retention was 48.4 percent but Hyundai was able to retain 57.6 percent of its current owners in 2004 and was one of only 10 brands that were able to exceed the industry average in this second year of the J.D. Power and Associates study."

    Your "number or welds" argument also show no statistical basis. Per post #1394 in the Hyundai Sonata 2006+, I will reiterate what codata99 wrote in that post.

    "Actually the Sonata is the current benchmark in midsize class.

    Honda and Toyota have a lot of catching up to do to barely match the overall performance and refinement.
    The Sonata has 6,200 body welds, about TWO THOUSAND more than the Camry's(4,300).
    How about paint? Matching the quality of the 18-pass rotary-dip electro-coat is simply out of the question. They don't have the Rho-dip facility. Only one other plant in N. America has one."

    backy, "Hyundai Sonata 2006+" #1375, 15 Jul 2005 12:53 pm

    Based on your argument that quality is based on the number of welds, then at least Toyota (and probably Honda),will have some catching up to do.

    Once again, another argument that takes one person's experience, and generalizes it to being fact.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    I posted this earlier:
    It's too technical. I highly doubt many consumers will be persuaded to purchase a sonata simply because it has more body welds, uses a higher quality paint from an "18-pass rotary-dip electro-coat". While these impressive features may cause a select group automotive engineers and car fanatics to salivate, the average consumer is more concerned with the fundamentals. I highly doubt that more body welds which do admittedly give the car more body rigidity be noticed by the average consumer. As for the "18-pass rotary-dip electro-coat" giving the sonata a sheen that is noticeably superior, are you kidding me? However, if one can show that all the above innovations are noticed by the average consumer then I will be the first to concede my point. As for the factory being a benchmark, while I have no doubt that it is true, will hardly be a compelling selling point for consumers. Should I really care that my accord took more workers to build? Where I feel the sonata has failed, despite having some new technical innovations, isn't clearly differentiating itself from its competitors. For a supposedly next-generation car the sonata offers precious little more (if at all) in the way of vehicle performance, safety, features and amenities. Having read many of the reviews and test driven the new sonata there's nothing to convince me that the sonata is a next-generation vehicle that is head and shoulders above industry standards like the camry and accord. It has reasonably strong performance, is well equipped at all levels and is quite spacious and comfortable. However, the same can be said of both the accord and camry (well the camry falls slightly short in performance). In such a competitive market the sonata failed to establish itself as the new class leader. It is merely a worthy competitor. The one key selling point of the sonata, which I suspect hyundai supporters will bring up is its excellent price. While this may entice a few buyers away who would otherwise have chosen the accord or camry, hyundai has just reinforced its image as a lower-cost alternative to the accord or camry. What the sonata needed to do was to market itself as not only a lower cost vehicle but as the new class leader which as added bonus also happened to have a lower price. I find it disappointing that hyundai is merely content to position itself as being on par with the camry and accord albeit at a lower price. Brand loyalty is a definite factor for many consumers in purchasing a new car and Hyundai has failed to do enough with its sonata to convince many accord and camry loyalists to make the switch. Toyota and Honda are still percieved to make better cars even though this may no longer be true. The 06 sonata needed to be a killer breakout vehicle that would leave no doubt in any consumer's mind of its superiority. The 06 sonata is not this car. Many people find the interior design to be bland, and exterior to be handsome but conservative. As well, its mileage is not very impressive. These points have been done to death and I apologize for rehashing them but the fact that these points are brought up at all indicates that the sonata is not the revolutionary vehicle it so needed to be. Some might think that I have unreasonable expectations of the sonata. But since Hyundai is still perceived to make inferior vehicles to toyota and honda (which I disagree with, they do make fine vehicles), the sonata needed to be the car equivalent of the second coming of christ (just kidding, well sort of ). What I fear may happen is when the 07 camry and 08 accord redesigns come out, the sonata may get left behind in the shuffle. Unfortunately the sonata, while a fine vehicle came out a little too late. Worthy competitor. Certainly. Lower priced but equally well equipped vehicle. Most assuredly. New class leader and industry benchmark. Hardly.
  • rgyiprgyip Member Posts: 43
    I agree with your post to a certain extent, that the average consumer doesn't care about the techical jargon.

    However, the problem with the this whole thread's argument is that one discredit's the Sonata because the Sonata doesn't have XXX from the Camry, or XXX from the Accord. No one looks at that XXX from the Accord doesn't have this from the Sonata or Camry, and likewise no one looks how the Camry doesn't have XXX from the Accord or Sonata. This whole argument is stupid...

    The CAMCORD is not A CAR, and this thread should not treat it as such. There is NO car in any single class that I know of, that is better in EVERY WAY than ANY other car within ITS CLASS.

    THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BENCHMARK CAR. TOO MUCH PERSONAL PREFERENCE INFLUENCES ONE'S "BEST" CAR.

    Sure, there are small things that the Sonata doesn't have yet that the current Camry or Accord might have, but it works both ways. But as a whole, you can't argue that the Sonata does many things right for the amount of money it asks for. You just have to decide whether or not the Sonata "package" is good enough for you. If not, get an Accord or Camry, etc., or wait for the NG Camry or Accord and see if they offer the right package to you.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    People still think that the 06 sonata is like the Pontiac G6 or Ford Five hundred. Even though those kinds of cars won JD POwer for intial plan quality , people know that those cars are still not great cars and rich in quality.

    Hyundai actually has both aspects packed down. So the paint job process will translate to the paint job of the car(best paint job in its class), so will the wieldings(thump sound when the car closes for example"). The camcords seriously don't compared to the extra "nutbolt tightened" the sonata offers at this current time. Don't be suprised even when the next generation will not match the number of weildings and painting passes again.

    Ctalk said, the normal consumer does not care about the pain quality or extra weild quality, but a true fanatic knows about that. I guess then what you mean is that hyundai sonata's are bought by true drivers and people who know about cars better, than i really do enjoy that niche.

    extra work does pay off in the end
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    We are doing this again? yuk.
    I believe some people in this forum (I won't say who) credit Sonata too much. It
    still needs to prove certain things.
    At the same time, other people seem unable to get over the possibility that
    Hyundai could surpass the Japanese. Everything that goes up comes down
    eventually. The billion dollar question is when not if.
    The reality is probably somewhere in between.
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    I hear Kia is going to build a production line in MS.
    Hmmm... US-made Optimas, hey?
    image
    I can't read the subtitle, but that's governer of Mississipi with chairman of
    Hyundai-Kia group. He's trying out the new Sedona in Korea. I just thought the
    pic. was hilarious. :P
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Ummm... ok, I'll bite. What do you find so hilarious about the picture?
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Hawwwwwwwwwwwwwww !!!!!!!! the good people of Mississippi need some good paying manufacturing jobs. Although I think quality might not be stellar in the beginning. Same goes for Alabama built Sonata. It is a known fact that when a brand new factory is built in an area with relatively few skilled labor, quality sometimes suffer. A good example would be the Nissan Titan and Armada.
  • bjbird2bjbird2 Member Posts: 647
    I don't get it.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Backy: Some of the features you posted are not standard on all models
    here is what the base model (GL) has
    :

    Which information that I posted is incorrect? I got it from Hyundai's own web site. Your list looks to me to be just a subset of the list I posted, with a few items left off. If those other items are in fact not on the Sonata GL, please inform us (and Hyundai's marketing people, so they can correct the web site).

    As for why more people don't buy side curtain airbags, traction control, and ESC on their Camrys, maybe it has to do with the price of Camrys with those options and also the limited availability of Camrys with those options, as opposed to people not wanting those features? If they are so unpopular, why did Honda and Hyundai decide make side curtain airbags standard across all their cars no later than '06? And why does Toyota make ESC standard on most of their vehicles (but not the Camry)?
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    Thanx for biting, i can't stand those nonsense arguements :P
    I just think it's really funny how this huge white dude sitting in a Kia minivan,
    of all things, dressed up in his best attire. Hyundai chairman is a certified
    billionaire. He's no Richard Bronson either. He's one of the typical hermit
    tycoons in Korea.
    The perfect PR smile just cracks me up. :P

    Anyways, I think building a new production line for Kia is yet another big
    commitment from this group. Kia has even bigger hurdles than Hyundai right
    now. I have a sneaking suspicion that they're gonna introduce pickup trucks
    pretty soon.

    If the new Optima looks great and drives well enough, I'll really consider it.
    US-made Optima makes things even sweeter. (Of course, it won't happen
    any time soon.)
This discussion has been closed.