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Acura RL vs. Infiniti M35
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Comments
FYI,
The M35x with the premium package does have the power rear shade too..
My dealer on Long Island (Atlantic Infinity) had a difficult time searching for my M35x (Premium Package)
He did call me to give me a Vin number for the exact vehicle (Sand with Wheat interior) but had to go to another dealership. After making inquiries about the Vin number with Infiniti Corp, (1 800 662-6200) they informed me that the car left Japan on December 6th 2005. Here are my questions: Can this car be tracked as it crosses the pacific and heads for the east coast? (any website for this?) Also, the car is coming with the high polished Chrome wheels (18 inch) which I told my salesman I didn't want. Do you think infiniti will let the wheels slide or replace them with the standard 18 inch titanium hubs?
Finally, if it left on December 6th from Japan, can anybody approximate a date when It would arrive at my Infiniti dealer on Long Isalnd NY?
Anyway, glad to be a new member here
TIA for all replies.
Alan Russell
Since this is a specific comparo between the RL and the M35, your question would really be better placed in our Infiniti M35/M45 2006+ discussion. Why don't you follow that link and repost there.
Again, welcome - hope your M35 arrives very soon!
was a bit confused..I did send the post to the appropriate forum as you suggested.
Maybe you can reply with any knowledge that you have..
Thanks
Alan Russell
The main plus to this car is the rear view camera that I think is a huge safety advantage! You have to pay extra to get it on the RL.
The main down sides to the RL, in my opinion are (1) a much wider turning radius than the other cars in this class, and (2) not enough back seat room.
Personally, I think the appearance of the RL is as sporty as any of the others although I don't think any of them look that great.
Now that I've been driving the M35x, I'd also throw in that its gas mileage is lower than I expected (haven't hit 17 yet with mixed city and highway driving), and the seat heater isn't the warmest and doesn't warm the seat back at all. However, my kids enjoy the back seat room much more in the M35x, and I like the exterior looks better.
>>Read the 40,000 long term test of the Acura RL, Car&Driver took it off
>>it's 10 best list because of all the problems they had with the car,
>>8 unscheduled dealer visits to fix a host of problems, they were
>>not happy with this car.
Consumer Reports has issued their "Top Picks for 2006", in which they select the best models in 10 categories. The Infiniti M35/45 took top honors over the RL in the Luxury Sedan category. The Consumer Reports review of the RL concludes "We expect reliability to be average, according to our latest subscriber survey. [New Car Reliability: Average (3/5)]"
That's pretty damning for Acura, especially since the TL is the top rated Sedan in the $30k-40k range. However, it certainly appears to reflect and expand on exactly what is shared on these boards, as well as apparently backing up exactly what was experienced by Car & Driver: a host of annoying technical issues experienced by thousands of new RL owners with the newly designed RL.
Compare that to Consumer Reports' reliability rating for the Infiniti M35/45: "First-year reliability has been outstanding. [New Car Reliability: Much better than average (5/5)]"
The RL and the M35 are both clearly excellent vehicles, but the data now conclusively shows that the new RL has some serious reliability issues, especially when compared to both Acura's own very highly rated TL, as well as their main competition, the Infiniti M35.
However, it now seems quite clear that the M35 is the superior vehicle, especially when reliability data is factored in.
I'm sure Honda/Acura is working hard to bring the car back up to their usual excellent reliability standards, but I can't help but think they simply rushed this one onto the market for some reason. Since I'm dumping my problematic leased Audi A6 2.7T, the main thing I'm looking for in my new vehicle is reliability. The latest CR reliability data has pretty much pushed me from "torn between the two" all the way over to the M35x. Plus I can't believe the RL cabin is only 1.2 cubic feet larger than the TL (99.1 vs 97.9), compared to 120.1 cubic feet with the M35 (sans premium package which alters the rear seats a bit). That boggles my mind.
- Racer X
I do agree that Honda might have rushed the RL in 2005, but I also bet that in five years, the current RL will prove a very reliable car. It is just too early to say definitively whether this will be true, in the same way that one cannot yet say that the M series will be more reliable than the RL over time.
Can't agree with RL being overpriced I paid $43,500 for my fully equipped 2006 RL after contacting four Acura dealers for prices. When I was shopping, I also looked at the Infiniti M35x and Audi A6 3.2. Price for both with options I wanted ran from $52,000 to $53,000. Neither Infiniti nor Audi would come anywhere close to the Acura price. Best they would offer was $2,000 off of the MSRP. Neither could deliver a car with the color and options I wanted.
Bottom line. I get a car with everything included at $7,500 below the other guys.
Now tell me again why the Acura price is too high.
I guess I'll hear that Acura's price is so low because of poor sales. That could be but I live in a large metropolitan area and I see as many RLs on the road as M35x and Audi A6.
I'm definitely leaning towards the RL over the M. My only reservation now is the RL's reliability. Between Consumer Report's "average" reliability rating and Car & Driver's poor reliability experience (8 unscheduled service visits during their "Long-Term Test Review"), I'm spooked enough to delay my decision.
Of course the CR report and C & D's article were for the 2005 model. Maybe with the RL's second year in the US there's been some improvement?
Can some more RL owners on this list comment on their reliability experiences?
Thanks in advance,
--
Allen Cronce
I've had my 05 RL since Oct 04. Other than a few minor things, I've had no problems with my RL. If I had to buy another car tomorrow, it would be an RL.
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More than YOUR personal opinion ... I'm with you on this issue. My M35 is a Sport so I don't have to look at the matte wood grain that to ME (as to you) actually looks phony. While real polished wood isn't the way real wood looks and would be garbage on furniture, in a car I think it looks much better. My wife's Lexus ... case in point. Bart :shades:
My lease is up in Spring, 2007 so I'm considering both of these vehicles.
According to Edmunds, the 2005 RL (first year model) had 0 recalls and 37 Technical Service Bulletins.
In comparison, the 2006 M (first year model) had 0 recalls and only 5 Technical Service Bulletins.
Based on that, and the C&D long term test, I would be hesitant to buy a first year, 2005 model. I'm sure the 2006 model RL is much better.
I am still in the process of finding a 2006 M. We already had an MDX, and simply didn't want another Acura in the garage. And I like the M's exterior (execept for tail lights) and really like the interior.
At this price point, everything is subjective. If we all just needed transportation and cars were an appliance, this thread would be "Accord vs. Maxima" or "Accord vs. Camry".
Both are great cars, IMHO.
RL had a quieter more luxurious ride and gets better gas mileage. Price is much cheaper for a 2006- some left over- with the same amount of tech goodies as the M. Acura has a better reputation for reliability than Infinity. Wood/leather luxury steering wheel is available on the RL. Best navigation system on the market and real time traffic reports.
M has a sportier feel and handles better. Rear camera is the best I've seen-same one that the $130K 7 series BMW uses."Birds eye" feature on navigation is a neat and unique feature. 2007 came out in Spring so the 2008 model may comeout in Spring, 2008- my time frame for getting a new ride. 2007's will be lower priced. DVD video's may be watched through the navigation system when the car is in park. Rear DVD option with rear passenger screen is available.
Both cars have AWD,Bluetooth,Homelink, XM, comfy seats, great paint job,good color selection- inside and out. DVD-A surround with good sound system.
Can't go wrong with either choice. It depends what features are most important to you.
Warning, one of the interior color options for the M is very controversial: Bourban leather. It's a love it or hate it color. I find it to be hideous, but others may love it. The Acura TL comes in a similar color. It's a very orangy color and I test drove it and found the interior combination of the black,orange, tan and gray not complimenting each other very well.
Took another look at last year's Consumer Reports luxury performance sedan issue and their 2006 Buying guide. The 2006 Infiniti M35x merits an unprecedented 97 points against the 2006 RL's lackluster 76. (TL got 90.)
Seems to me that consumers on Edmunds.com like RL better (9.7 vs. 9.1) and most folks, like carfan28, conclude that they aren't that different. Subjectively the M strikes me as a little bit unattractive, though not as ugly as the G35 or the BMW 5 series. True Cost to Own is better on the RL. Pricing is trickier on the M because of all the darn options and packages. I hate that--that's why Honda/Acura has gotten 100% of my business for the past several years.
A 21-point spread--wow. Is RL really a C+ car and M35x an A+? (Then there's the fun and price-performing 2007 TL to consider.) Help me out here!
:confuse:
Another benefit of the Acura's is their naviagation systems are "on the fly"- you can input while driving.
I do like both cars, and I think either is a good pick. Not sure what the 2007 RL's are selling for. I do know that leftover 2006's are still very inexpensive- hovering around $40K in NJ for a non-tech version. Tech version for 2006 is the run flat tires and the Stay in the Lane system. Other version does not have run flats.
2007 RL has a rear camera and MP3 player port built in on all 3 models:
There's a non-navagation model without wood trim, a model just like the 2006 regular model, and the fully loaded model with the run flat tires and Stay in the Lane system.
Thanks for the thoughtful analysis! Of course I agree with your conclusion. (BTW Stay in the Lane is an Infiniti feature--the Acura has Adaptive Cruise Control and Collision-Mitigation Braking System but no lane-departure warning.)
Here's the update: I could resist no longer and pounced on a 2006 RL Tech/CMBS/PAX at $42,475 + TTL here in L.A. a couple of weeks ago. Missed my sweet-but-squeaky 2004 non-navi TL for all of 5 minutes after trading it in. This dealer went $1100 higher on the trade than "my" dealer and gave up their entire holdback on the RL. Never even drove the Infiniti M as I have issues with their styling and did not like their local dealers back when I owned a sluggish 2000 QX4. The M is difficult to discern from the 4-door G from certain angles. There is no mistaking an RL vs. a TL.
BTW I have seen only 2 other RLs in those 2 weeks. Exclusivity is a nice thing. Sweeeeet!!
The consumer reports ratings represent an unbiased evaluation which is independent of price. They subject these cars to many tests - simulating a variety of driving conditions and road conditions. This is quite different from an impression one might get from test driving a vehicle for a couple of hours. In my experience they are fairly accurate in their assessment of all products they test. For example, in 2000 I purchased a new Acura TL, despite the fact that CR rated the Lexus ES300 considerably better. After a while I wished that I made a different decision. The TL was a good car, but not a great car. Everything that I grew not to like about the Acura (not obvious in my initial test drive), was shown to be a weakness by CR in their evaluation. Our 1997 Camry (similar to the Lexus ES 300), on the other hand, turned out to be a fantastic car and overall a lot better than the TL. I had also owned a 1995 Maxima and also found it to be a better can than the TL. Both the Nissan and Toyota brands seem to have a better ride quality. For some reason, Honda products have a high frequency "tink" sounds over pot holes, while the Nissan and Toyota products, have a low frequency "thunk" sound - giving them a much more solid feel.
According to CR the Infinity M35X has an advantage over the RL in ride, handling, braking, roominess and thus far, reliability. Resale value is also better on the Infinity.
I recently test drove the M35X and was really impressed. It is exceptionally roomy in the rear seat for a mid size luxury sedan. The ride is smooth and the handling is great. I don't know how they did it, but it's like having a European sedan and a [non-permissible content removed] sedan rolled into one - excellent road feel and creamy ride. The engine is responsive, the braking is sports car like. The quality of interior materials is also impressive in this price range. The whole car is wrapped in leather. All the controls are really easy to use, including the NAV system and the excellent back up camera.
I think I might be tempted to listen to CR this time.
Exclusive or just plain unpopular?
Ever heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy? Everything they said would annoy, you probably remembered and started looking out for. You also expected them to annoy you.
I bet if you had evaluated the cars for yourself you would have had a higher chance of having a different outcome.
I think you should start buying cars for you and try as hard as possible not to let others influence you. After all it is you who has to drive the car.
Both the Nissan and Toyota brands seem to have a better ride quality. For some reason, Honda products have a high frequency "tink" sounds over pot holes, while the Nissan and Toyota products, have a low frequency "thunk" sound - giving them a much more solid feel.
That is because Acura/Honda makes driver's cars. Their cars are made with driving and handling in mind. As such, the ride is not as floaty as you might find in other marques./
This is not uncommon to anyone who has driven European cars of any make.
In their older driving culture, the premium is put on the driving experience rather than isolation from the world around you.
I hope you find a car to like. The M is a great car.
I would try to avoid CR next time and take your time and test-drive the car several times.
CR is a poor substitute for proper car testing.
By the way, what do you think about the Lexus GS?
Have you evaluated it in any way?
What about the Germans?
What is your take? Are they out of your price range?
CR’s mission is also to provide an unbiased report. So, I use them as a guide to narrow down my choices. I actually had some issues with my TL before I saw that the same areas were identified as weaknesses by CR. I tend to be sensitive to rattles, squeaks more than the average guy (at least that is what my wife says). The Toyota’s seem to have fewer problems in these areas. Just as a small example, when I turn from the road onto the curb of my driveway, as the front wheels start to climb onto the curb you can hear the twisting noises on the TL. The Camry, on the other hand, even with over 200K is solid as a tank (until its recent demise in an accident). I do think that Honda products are great. I have a 2004 Honda Pilot and I feel it is the best package under 45K. However, it too exhibits those twisting noises.
Now, on to your other questions. To date I have test driven the M35x (twice) BMW 530xi, Lexus GS350, Acura RL and just for good measure the Toyota Avalon Limited.
Here is my impression of them:
The BMW had good handling and ride. However, the car’s acceleration was not as good as the others and it’s not overly roomy for passengers or cargo.
The Lexus, much to my surprise, had the worst ride, and it also has cramped quarters and trunk. The engine was quiet and the power was excellent, but the handling was not spectacular. I think the Toyota’s suspension engineers have taken a lot away from ride without gaining much in handling. However, its interior is so much nicer than the rest that it makes you want to ignore everything else.
The Acura RL had the quietest engine. It was fairly responsive as well. The handling and ride felt better than the Lexus but not as good as the BMW or Infiniti. Again, as it seems to be the norm here, the car felt a little cramped.
The Toyota Avalon is a lot of car for the money. I would probably purchase it if I was looking for a FWD car. It is very roomy, has high quality materials and it seems to be fairly competent in most areas. Not overly exciting to drive and I am not crazy about the exterior styling. However after purchasing my first AWD (Pilot) a couple of years ago, I realized that is the way to go if you live in Western PA.
The Infiniti seems to match my needs at this point in my life. Its acceleration, ride, handling, braking, and fit and finish are all very good to excellent. And it is the only car that comes close to the Avalon in size. The only thing that I noticed with the Infiniti (and BMW) is that its engine sounds a little louder than the others here. I hope that this is just the manufacturer’s intention to make the cars sound sporty rather than worse engineering.
I have not purchased anything yet. It does not seem like Infiniti here wants to deal much on these cars. Any suggestions?
--More room in the M. I am 6'3" and I like the higher seating position. For me, the front seats are also more comfortable. There is slightly more room in the back and the trunk is definitely much larger and more useable, although the trunk opening is smaller in the M.
--The handling on the RL was slightly better. Better directional stability (i.e. the steering is a little "nervous" on the M) and the SH 4WD cannot be beat. The RL is normally more in FWD, while the M is normally more in RWD. Makes a difference and is personal preference. I believe the ride is better on the M, although a little firmer.
--RL had better mileage. I regularly got 28mpg on the highway vs 23 on the M. This is due to the much lower 5th gear and closer gear ratios in the M. The M has smoother acceleration and better shifting as a result, but the penalty is the gas mileage. Both cars need a six speed or maybe, in the case of the M, the Nissan CVT.
--The NAV systems are a toss-up. The M's system is faster, has fewer annoying warning screens, and has friendlier views. The RL had the ability to call up a longer list of destinations, complete with phone numbers-really handy for calling a hotel from the road.
--The quality of the M has been perfect to date. I was really put off by all of the recalls on the 2005RL. It never left me stranded, but dealing with all of the recalls was a real pain. It was not an Acura-like experience. Both the Acura and Infiniti dealers are 50 miles away.
--Depreciation experience is yet to be determined for the M. My RL dropped 35% in value-trade vs. MSRP-in two years. Much was due to the rebates necessary to move the 2006 models. Not as bad as most American cars, but worse than my 2002 Lexus LS 430.
--Styling. The RL does strongly resemble a Honda Accord. This was a major mistake in restyling the RL as was shortening the wheelbase by nearly 2 inches. On the other hand, the M is pretty non-descript as well. I am OK with the styling on both and am more interested in the drive and quality.
--Mechanical. Both engines are works of art and smooth as butter. Same for the transmissions, with a slight edge to the M on upshifts, and a bigger edge to the M on downshifts. More engine sound with the M, which I like. It is closer to a BMW in character, while the RL is more like a cross between a Lexus and a Honda. Why can't American manufacturers build engines like these?
--Miscellaneous. Like the push button start on the M. Like the back-up camera on the M-now on the 2007 RL. Dealer experience for both has been great. it's really nice to be treated well vs. the low quality at most American car dealerships. A few more standard electronic toys on the RL, none of which mattered to me.
In summary, these are two great cars and you can't go wrong with either one. Preference should be largely based on the test drive, the price, and the proximity and quality of the dealer.
Actually they can and they do. But most people who purchase in these classes are such dash strokers and badge snobs that they're put off by the American cars since they aren't squishy and posh enough. But GM's Northstar V8 and new 3.8L V6 are smooth. Ford's modular engines are smooth (when used in some applications) and its new 3.5L V6 is said to be smooth. Chrysler's HEMI V8 is smooth as butter and its 3.5L V6 is smooth (when used in the 300, at least it was in the 300M).
It's a darn shame because in so many other business areas we lead the world. I'm all for supporting American companies, but it's seems that Detroit is incapable of making a great product. Hondas, Nissans and Toyotas and all the Japanese vehicles have a large percentage of their cars made in the US anyway- so we who buy these cars are supporting ourselves as well.
I'd love to see some proof of that. The 300M for one, during its production, was rated as one of the most reliable cars in America (by CR, I believe). Did it leave you stranded when you rented it? Also keep in mind you're (for whatever reason) thinking an older, out-of-production $30K car should have an interior comparable to modern, $40K+ luxury cars. :confuse: I've been in and driven all three cars, and I definitely wouldn't say the 300M is a "piece of crap" compared to the M35 or RL, ESPECIALLY not the RL. Have you taken a look at that boom-box looking center stack of the RL with its hard, cheap plastic? Glass houses and stone throwers don't mix. Outside of electronic gimmickry, the 300M is on par with the RL, despite being older; and don't even mention interior space. :surprise:
RL positives:
SHAWD- drive system
On the fly navigation system
Better fuel economy
MP3 player is incorporated with the car's audio system
Quieter Cabin
Smoother Ride
Wood steering wheel option
Run Flat tires option
Proven good local dealer
RL Negatives:
No DVD player for playing movies while car is in park
Worse resale value
2005 had many bugs
Consumer Reports didn't give it a great recommendation
I see old ladies and old men driving it
No birdview navigation
M35X Positives:
DVD player plays movies while in park
Better resale value
2006 Consumer Reports Top Pick
Men drive the car
3D Birdsview Navigation
Much better lease rate
M35X Negatives:
Worse fuel economy
noisier cabin
bouncier ride
MP3 Player doesn't interact with the car audio system
Navigation can only work when car's in park
No wood steering wheel option available