Most of the TDI vilification/s on this thread is/has been and probably will continue to be done by hybrid advocates!!! ???
I do not think anyone would begrudge your good fortune. However, my 2003 TDI was bought new and 69,000 miles under its belt(3 years later) and I can sell it NOW for what I paid for it new. If I held out, probably at a premium to even that high premium.
I further would think if I bought a Prius/HCL that my experiences would probably mirror yours. So I say congradulations!
Both the hybrid's and the TDI's are experiencing favorable market forces. (depends of course what side or point of view you have.) And here I thought you wrote you were tired of the "hybrid premium" discussion.
According to KBB the BV for a pvt sale would be a little over 14k. Do you consider that good?
If you do sell it, please make sure the buyer is aware of the fact that it scored poorly on the EPA scale. I have a feeling you have no intention of selling it. I wonder if you can retrofit something on the engine so that is can spew out less noxious fumes. It may be worthwhile to do.
Buyer Beware! And that is for both (on topic) hybrids and TDI's !!! Hybrids and TDI's really have not altered this basic SOP. This even goes back to horse trading!
You can thank your legislators for not implementing the 2006 low sulfur diesel standards in the middle 1970's (or almost 30 years ago, a generation for those who subscribe to Jeffersonian ideals ). In my humble opinion, a HUGE strategic mistake. Be that as it may, 15 ppm diesel will have less sulfur than the 30 ppm unleaded gas!!!
quote ruking1-"However, my 2003 TDI was bought new and 69,000 miles under its belt(3 years later) and I can sell it NOW for what I paid for it new."-end quote
Show me the numbers. Do a TMV and a KBB and bring me the numbers. No way you can sell a 69,000 mile car for the "new" price. Not happnin. Show us the numbers if you think this is true.
According to KBB the max he can get would be 14.3k on a private sale. Ain't no way the TDI is keeping up with the resales on hybrids. Gotta love it!!!!
All of which come up short with the automatic diesel.
You need to get out more. The VW TDI with DSG surpasses any automatic or CVT Honda or Toyota builds. It is simple and very positive. Unlike the ECVT & CVT that whine and carry on to get you where you are going. They are fine for snow machines, not for cars.
"quote ruking1-"However, my 2003 TDI was bought new and 69,000 miles under its belt(3 years later) and I can sell it NOW for what I paid for it new."-end quote
Show me the numbers. Do a TMV and a KBB and bring me the numbers. No way you can sell a 69,000 mile car for the "new" price. Not happnin. Show us the numbers if you think this is true."
Please, flatter me not. If I was truly smart, I would have AT LEAST 10 to sell!!
The TDI automatic with the diesel is a SLUG!! The Toyota Prius KILLS the auto TDI in acceleration, smoothness and NVH. There is absolutely no comparison. Heck... the Prius even bested the manual diesel according to two tests I read. The Prius is truly an amazing piece of machinery.
You guys are so vitriolic. Doesn't anyone think there is room for both hybrids and diesels, and that it is possible that they both have positive and negative attributes?
There simply doesn't make any sense to have diesels in the market that score a ONE (lowest) on the EPA scale. If they scored as well as PZEV I wouldn't even be posting here. How can you condone selling filthy cars? Doesn't make sense!
I can't comment on the EPA scale, but I wouldn't take it as the final word without some careful scrutinization. I would be willing to bet that it is less than perfect.
How does a diesel compare to a poorly tuned car from the '90s? I would guess you could do a lot more car cleaning up older cars rather than newer cars.
Here in Alabama, we don't have any emissions test. None.
my 2003 TDI was bought new and 69,000 miles under its belt
I believe you would have little trouble getting your price in your area. I have turned down $1500 over what I paid for my 2005 Passat TDI. It is a crazy sellers market on hybrids and diesels here in CA. There is a dealer in Orange County that only sells used VW TDIs. He does very well. Most of those interested in the diesels are environmental types that want to save on fossil fuel. They see the flaw in the hybrid mindset. Not every environmentalist considers Toyota a godsend. I'm with you on the 100,001 mile hybrids. I think that will be the death knoll for any hybrid. No one wants to buy a car and spend thousands on exotic hardware that is only available from the OEM. What is a 2003 Prius with 69k miles worth?
Does anyone have a document to show that Toyota will honor the 100k mile hybrid warranty past the original owner?
In NY metro every car has to have exhaust tests yearly. Many states do not have such laws. There are ways to bypass this as some stations take bribes and stick the probe in a car's tailpipe that won't have trouble passing. Believe me, what angers me worse than anything is gasser driving down the road that looks like it is on fire from all the smoke. Something has to be done about those situations. I am quite happy NY does not allow diesel cars for sale as new. I can breath easier for sure.
To listen to the anti diesel types or some of the hybrid advocates, you would think so!? I personally didn't get the hybrid on the running of "due diligence". NOT because I HATE hybrids. But there is a population of the hybrid's advocates who take this to the religious cult level, and who literally HATE diesel. That is why I have tried to lighten it up a bit referring to the Church of Perpetual Denial.
Sounds like the head of auto testing for Consumer Reports is liking what he sees with modern diesel cars. If you are stuck with a long urban commute get a hybrid. If you spend most of the time on the highway get a diesel.
While diesel cars get about 30 percent better mileage, overall, than comparable gasoline-powered cars, they are most efficient in steady highway driving, said David Champion, head of auto testing for Consumer Reports.
Hybrid cars, on the other hand, are most efficient in city or suburban driving, which calls for frequent acceleration and braking.
In terms of performance, modern turbodiesel-powered cars -- all diesel engines in today's passenger vehicles are turbocharged -- provide a driving experience that is no different from a gasoline engine, Champion said. In fact, passing power is greater than with a gasoline engine.
When pressed to accelerate from 50 to 70 miles per hour, a diesel car "takes off like nothing on Earth," said Champion.
That is what I like about the Passat diesel. The great midrange acceleration for passing on mountain roads.
Yeah I would agree on your hybrid take. Look I have a cow when my battery (40-100 dollar) doesn't last 10 years!! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that if Toyota is not claiming new and improved battery long life and if it doesn't we will replace it as part of the gig; that replacing the 28 batteries on the Prius; either in total or per @ 128 per will cost a bit of cha ching (up to 3600 not to include installation) is just not really concerned!!!
As concerning the worth of 69k on a 2003 Prius there is a scant market. Now I don't know if folks aren't selling them, too afraid to sell em or not enough to generate a good aftermarket.
Both magazines tested the Prius, HCH and TDI. The TDI with the manual had the WORST acceleration from 40-70 which is a good benchmark to use. Imagine how slow the auto must be? The Prius is no race car, but the TDI is SLOWER than a Prius in 0-60 and 40-70. Go figure!! One nice plus... the Prius scores a 9.5 on the EPA scale (10 being highest). The TDI scores an abysmal 1. Remember that song... One is the loneliest number.....yada yada!!
Here are the links to the EPA site which show the TDI, CRD and lastly the Prius. When the TDI and CRD score at least a 5 or 6, I’m outta here. For the time being, people should know what is coming out of their tailpipes and into the lungs of people. Not good!!
Sure do...doesn't mean anything as there are different engines. Why would you buy a car with an engine that wasn't clean. The point is you CAN get a clean Corolla, you can't get a clean diesel. Entiendes????
No matter how this hybrid vs diesel thread is sliced/ hashed/diced, either and or both will remain a minority part of the passenger vehicle fleet, literally for years to come.
There used to be a thread on Edmunds.com on I HATE SUV's, Why Do You Like Them?, and how the SUV hordes were going to be the bane of western civilization as we know it. Not only has that NOT come to pass but in fact as much as the SUV hordes have "multiplied", the SUV is only 12% of the PVF and that is after "MASSIVE UNBRIDLED GROWTH" OF 31 years that I know of. Or if the yearly math is any indication,.3871% per year or less than one/half of 1 %.
So if diesels of all types are 2.3%-2.9% of the PVF and hybrids a fraction of 1%, I predict a similar time frame of 20-30 years to even reach 12% for either and/or both. I truly think if the price of fuel is further ratched (up: as in 7 dollars per US gal, as in the UK) diesels will grow FAR faster than hybrids in response. I think the Euro scenarios are the most likely: as in 45% of the PVF IS diesel, and GROWING I might add.
Unrelated to this thread, but it must be NIRVANA for the "get rid of fossilized fuel burners" advocates in NYC; now the public transit workers are on strike. Most everyone is now an added "hoofer". I wonder of Wash DC or Boston can use a transit strike?
We finally agree!! I enjoy the participation here. I consider myself a neutral party because I don't own a diesel and I don't own a hybrid. Guess what? If the E class Mercedes was over a 5, I'd buy it even though it is overpriced (like most Mercedes). I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST DIESELS. I DO have something against dirty engines. Yes there are dirty gassers out there too!!
I suspect the real action is going on when people choose an Accord over an Altima, or a Pilot over a Durango, or maybe even in the best case scenario a Passat wagon over an Explorer.
The ecoweenie fringe is not going to make much of a difference one way or the other.
> will remain a minority part of the passenger vehicle fleet, literally for years to come
That's an interesting way of using statistics to mislead. The other automakers are so far behind, there will indeed be a perceived minority in the overall market. But looking at Toyota alone, you will get an entirely different story... because they will in fact be able to sell a majority of their passenger vehicles as hybrids.
No matter how deep in denial you are, there is simply no way to dismiss the need to reduce emissions & consumption. And with the Toyota hybrid design quickly proving itself, people won't see any reason not to choose it. After all, the diesel supports certainly haven't been able to provide any compelling reason to go with diesel (non-hybrid) instead.
And I think you all too easily search for a bogie man when there is NONE.
Deep denial? Hmm... interesting thought coming from the Church of Perpetual Denial. China (you've heard of them?) is literally adding DEMAND like there is NO tomorrow. More directly, the overwhelming choice in cars is NOT hybrids !!!??? So if you think that is the good news, the bad news is the China's emissions standards don't even match the current EURO ones! Let alone the CA state ones. I think you all should wake up and realize the world does NOT revolve around your decrees; that the world runs in abject subjugation to your curious machinations.
I read many years ago that more energy is consumed in the manufacture of a car than it uses during its operating life. Environmentally, the best thing that you can do is to keep a car running for as long as possible. This raises the question of the battery packs in the Hybrids. How much energy and pollution goes into the production of one of those battery pack sets. There is mining, mining waste and pollution, metal refining, refining waste and pollution, manufacturing, manufacturing waste and pollution... What is the expected life of one of the battery sets and how much energy is used and pollution generated producing one. If you look at Hybrids in this light, I am sure that the environmental cost are much higher.
Actually that is one reason for me getting the TDI. The engine has a design life of 25,000 plus hours. This can (depending on a host of things) convert to (50 mph avg speed) 1.25 M miles. So yes my long term goal is to reduce the buying of a "new" car. So if what I have to do is change 10 rounds of brake pads/rotors and/ or tire sets and get a new engine when it poops out then ultimately that is what I will do. Given proper operation of a manual for the diesel a VW jetta can look to app 400k miles before a clutch is needed.
As for the hybrid battery issue, yes every town that has a battery manufacturer wants to run em out of town!! (I don't necessarily agree or disagree with this policy sentiment) However I do know our town had an exide battery concern and "WE" ran em out of town. Or shall I be more PC and say the requirement were such even a dummy could no longer operate and if they did risk felony jail time.
I have been watching the diatribes that have been going back and forth for the past few days and it hit me that some people in this forum do not see what this forum is about. Many of you are nit picking over a feature here or a tenth of a second there and harping on the negatives of the competing form of motivation.
Who gets the better fuel economy? Neither, because it depends on too many factors including where, when, and how. Which one is cleaner? Neither is. Depends on which pollutant you look at. Gassers emit more unburned HC and CO than a diesel and except for hybrids, emit more CO2. Diesels have trouble with PM and NOx.
At present diesels are stinky and dirty, but that will change shortly when USLD and PM filters are introduced. NOx is a tougher nut to crack. One of you stated it would be expensive to remedy the NOx problem. I have yet to see or find any numbers. But when you think about, diesel is now where gassers were thirty years ago. In 1975 catalytic converters were introduced, then TBI (throttle body injection), port injection, three-way catalysts, etc. What all of us have forgotten is that none of that technology was free. We paid for it. Some gassers have direct injection like diesels and it is pretty effective and as I have read cleaner than port injection.
Gas is cleaner for two reasons. It is introduced as a vapor, not a fine or very fine mist. Vapor particles are very tiny in comparison to the mist you would fine in a diesel. Lots more surface area. Particulate still exists but it is so small, that it is a non-issue, at least for now. Second, gassers must burn the same ratio of fuel to air no matter what. In diesel, fuel to air varies all over the place depending on load/demand.
Diesel is heading in that direction of being cleaner. Injection pressures are presently as high as 30K psi, unless some one has heard otherwise. Now imagine 60 - 80K psi, with multiple pulses on the order of a dozen or so, instead of three, as you find on my CRD. Add USLD, a particulate trap, and so much for PM. Once the sulfur ls out, I feel catalytic converters can kill most of the NOx. Gassers make NOx too, but to a lesser degree than diesel and still require a catalyst to knock it down further. Diesels are lean burning engines in comparison to gassers, something that unfortunately encourages NOx formation.
It will eventually come to pass that either form of motivation will be equally clean and equally economical. I have nothing against hybrids save for their complexity. If they were simpler and used a renewable fuel source other than petroleum based fuel, I would have bought one. I like diesel in spite of some the present issues which are not in my hands. I can use a completely renewable fuel source in my CRD. Unfortunately gasolene is a one way deal. Ethanol, ETOH, is viable, but expensive to make and in present form, gas engines are not designed to maximize what power ETOH has. ETOH is significantly less energy dense then gasolene. Methanol is less energy dense ETOH.
The other thing the gasser/hybrid advocates almost totally ignore is unleaded regular is MAIN LINE fuel. It is the fuel (on the other side of their advocation) that we:
1 "NEED" to get rid of
2 use less of
3 get off the dependency of and ON foreign oil
4 threatens our national security
5 yada yada
6 etc etc etc.
It is NOT or has the currently capability of being an ALTERNATIVE fuel like diesel CAN be. Worst come to worse or even better come to best, you can "brew" diesel in your back yard, although the authorities would probably not like people doing this. This is damn near impossible with unleaded regular.
Diesel can be domestically PRODUCED ( from an interesting and growing array of conventional and non conventional sources. This is WAY unlike domestic oil, which even as they advocate for less foreign oil use/and dependency and even less domestic oil use, they lobby and successfully I might hasten to cut down domestic supply and discovery. It is also interesting they advocate the living in cities, which BELIEVE it or not USE WAY MORE ENERGY than in non cities.
It also sadly has been proven (in NYC 9/11 for those with short memories) a more than easy and symbolic terrorist target with the attending massive loss of life property and psychic damage. etc, etc. Shoot we are even in a "WAR" because of it.
If you look at Hybrids in this light, I am sure that the environmental cost are much higher.
There are many that will argue with you on this subject. According to a Toyota study on the Life Cycle of a hybrid and a non-hybrid, the pollution in manufacturing far outstrips the driving of the car for the first 150k miles. Sulfur oxides, particulate matter, and hydro carbons are much higher in the manufacturing of a car. More so in the hybrids. You would have to drive the car at least 300k miles to match the SOx produced in manufacturing. You could never put enough miles to match the PM & HC produced in manufacturing. There is a lot of denial and blinders, with regards to our polluting other countries so we can have a new car every 3 years. GHG is the only place the hybrids shine brightly. Gotta make the Kyoto treaty work, no matter how much other crap is dumped into the atmosphere.
I like the way diesel fuel smells as compared to gasoline. I like that you can throw a spark (or a match) at this fuel and you will live (it will not light). I like that you can convert a TDI to run on old restaurant oil--and then the car smells like french fries. I like how TDIs have enough power and torque without resorting to extra batteries. I like the way the diesel Mercedes E Class sounds...no marbles in a tin can...it sounds expensive (and that it is!) and cool.
Diesel development is proceeding very quickly. We are now seeing diesel race car engines. Diesels may not ever rule, but they will be an alternative for a long time to come due to the combination of fuel economy with the new-found power, and clean-burning performance on the horizon too.
Comments
Most of the TDI vilification/s on this thread is/has been and probably will continue to be done by hybrid advocates!!! ???
I do not think anyone would begrudge your good fortune. However, my 2003 TDI was bought new and 69,000 miles under its belt(3 years later) and I can sell it NOW for what I paid for it new. If I held out, probably at a premium to even that high premium.
I further would think if I bought a Prius/HCL that my experiences would probably mirror yours. So I say congradulations!
Both the hybrid's and the TDI's are experiencing favorable market forces. (depends of course what side or point of view you have.) And here I thought you wrote you were tired of the "hybrid premium" discussion.
If you do sell it, please make sure the buyer is aware of the fact that it scored poorly on the EPA scale. I have a feeling you have no intention of selling it. I wonder if you can retrofit something on the engine so that is can spew out less noxious fumes. It may be worthwhile to do.
You can thank your legislators for not implementing the 2006 low sulfur diesel standards in the middle 1970's (or almost 30 years ago, a generation for those who subscribe to Jeffersonian ideals ). In my humble opinion, a HUGE strategic mistake. Be that as it may, 15 ppm diesel will have less sulfur than the 30 ppm unleaded gas!!!
Show me the numbers. Do a TMV and a KBB and bring me the numbers. No way you can sell a 69,000 mile car for the "new" price. Not happnin. Show us the numbers if you think this is true.
CNN "Hybrids" article
You need to get out more. The VW TDI with DSG surpasses any automatic or CVT Honda or Toyota builds. It is simple and very positive. Unlike the ECVT & CVT that whine and carry on to get you where you are going. They are fine for snow machines, not for cars.
Show me the numbers. Do a TMV and a KBB and bring me the numbers. No way you can sell a 69,000 mile car for the "new" price. Not happnin. Show us the numbers if you think this is true."
Please, flatter me not. If I was truly smart, I would have AT LEAST 10 to sell!!
Or is this some kind fight to the death brawl?
How does a diesel compare to a poorly tuned car from the '90s? I would guess you could do a lot more car cleaning up older cars rather than newer cars.
Here in Alabama, we don't have any emissions test. None.
I believe you would have little trouble getting your price in your area. I have turned down $1500 over what I paid for my 2005 Passat TDI. It is a crazy sellers market on hybrids and diesels here in CA. There is a dealer in Orange County that only sells used VW TDIs. He does very well. Most of those interested in the diesels are environmental types that want to save on fossil fuel. They see the flaw in the hybrid mindset. Not every environmentalist considers Toyota a godsend. I'm with you on the 100,001 mile hybrids. I think that will be the death knoll for any hybrid. No one wants to buy a car and spend thousands on exotic hardware that is only available from the OEM. What is a 2003 Prius with 69k miles worth?
Does anyone have a document to show that Toyota will honor the 100k mile hybrid warranty past the original owner?
Warner
And I want one soooo bad
While diesel cars get about 30 percent better mileage, overall, than comparable gasoline-powered cars, they are most efficient in steady highway driving, said David Champion, head of auto testing for Consumer Reports.
Hybrid cars, on the other hand, are most efficient in city or suburban driving, which calls for frequent acceleration and braking.
In terms of performance, modern turbodiesel-powered cars -- all diesel engines in today's passenger vehicles are turbocharged -- provide a driving experience that is no different from a gasoline engine, Champion said. In fact, passing power is greater than with a gasoline engine.
When pressed to accelerate from 50 to 70 miles per hour, a diesel car "takes off like nothing on Earth," said Champion.
That is what I like about the Passat diesel. The great midrange acceleration for passing on mountain roads.
As concerning the worth of 69k on a 2003 Prius there is a scant market. Now I don't know if folks aren't selling them, too afraid to sell em or not enough to generate a good aftermarket.
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-VOLKSWAGEN-Jetta-05.htm
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-JEEP-Liberty-05.htm
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-TOYOTA-Prius-05.htm
An Insight gets the same score of "3" as a Maybach 62.
That makes me think that there is some EPA silliness going on.
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-TOYOTA-Corolla-06.htm
The auto does well. Show me a diesel that gets over 1.
I can't find any diesels higher than a one, but I can find diesels that do as well as my chosen Corolla.
I am not sure if you are don't see it or if you are just tweaking me.
Espero que usted no compre un vehículo de diesel hasta que ellos lleguen a ser limpiadores. ¡Goce sus vacaciones!
You can speak! I hope that you do not buy a diesel engine vehicle until they get to be cleaners. We enjoyed its vacations!
There used to be a thread on Edmunds.com on I HATE SUV's, Why Do You Like Them?, and how the SUV hordes were going to be the bane of western civilization as we know it. Not only has that NOT come to pass but in fact as much as the SUV hordes have "multiplied", the SUV is only 12% of the PVF and that is after "MASSIVE UNBRIDLED GROWTH" OF 31 years that I know of. Or if the yearly math is any indication,.3871% per year or less than one/half of 1 %.
So if diesels of all types are 2.3%-2.9% of the PVF and hybrids a fraction of 1%, I predict a similar time frame of 20-30 years to even reach 12% for either and/or both. I truly think if the price of fuel is further ratched (up: as in 7 dollars per US gal, as in the UK) diesels will grow FAR faster than hybrids in response. I think the Euro scenarios are the most likely: as in 45% of the PVF IS diesel, and GROWING I might add.
Unrelated to this thread, but it must be NIRVANA for the "get rid of fossilized fuel burners" advocates in NYC; now the public transit workers are on strike. Most everyone is now an added "hoofer". I wonder of Wash DC or Boston can use a transit strike?
I suspect the real action is going on when people choose an Accord over an Altima, or a Pilot over a Durango, or maybe even in the best case scenario a Passat wagon over an Explorer.
The ecoweenie fringe is not going to make much of a difference one way or the other.
That's an interesting way of using statistics to mislead. The other automakers are so far behind, there will indeed be a perceived minority in the overall market. But looking at Toyota alone, you will get an entirely different story... because they will in fact be able to sell a majority of their passenger vehicles as hybrids.
No matter how deep in denial you are, there is simply no way to dismiss the need to reduce emissions & consumption. And with the Toyota hybrid design quickly proving itself, people won't see any reason not to choose it. After all, the diesel supports certainly haven't been able to provide any compelling reason to go with diesel (non-hybrid) instead.
JOHN
Deep denial? Hmm... interesting thought coming from the Church of Perpetual Denial. China (you've heard of them?) is literally adding DEMAND like there is NO tomorrow. More directly, the overwhelming choice in cars is NOT hybrids !!!??? So if you think that is the good news, the bad news is the China's emissions standards don't even match the current EURO ones! Let alone the CA state ones. I think you all should wake up and realize the world does NOT revolve around your decrees; that the world runs in abject subjugation to your curious machinations.
This raises the question of the battery packs in the Hybrids. How much energy and pollution goes into the production of one of those battery pack sets. There is mining, mining waste and pollution, metal refining, refining waste and pollution, manufacturing, manufacturing waste and pollution... What is the expected life of one of the battery sets and how much energy is used and pollution generated producing one.
If you look at Hybrids in this light, I am sure that the environmental cost are much higher.
As for the hybrid battery issue, yes every town that has a battery manufacturer wants to run em out of town!!
Who gets the better fuel economy? Neither, because it depends on too many factors including where, when, and how. Which one is cleaner? Neither is. Depends on which pollutant you look at. Gassers emit more unburned HC and CO than a diesel and except for hybrids, emit more CO2. Diesels have trouble with PM and NOx.
At present diesels are stinky and dirty, but that will change shortly when USLD and PM filters are introduced. NOx is a tougher nut to crack. One of you stated it would be expensive to remedy the NOx problem. I have yet to see or find any numbers. But when you think about, diesel is now where gassers were thirty years ago. In 1975 catalytic converters were introduced, then TBI (throttle body injection), port injection, three-way catalysts, etc. What all of us have forgotten is that none of that technology was free. We paid for it. Some gassers have direct injection like diesels and it is pretty effective and as I have read cleaner than port injection.
Gas is cleaner for two reasons. It is introduced as a vapor, not a fine or very fine mist. Vapor particles are very tiny in comparison to the mist you would fine in a diesel. Lots more surface area. Particulate still exists but it is so small, that it is a non-issue, at least for now. Second, gassers must burn the same ratio of fuel to air no matter what. In diesel, fuel to air varies all over the place depending on load/demand.
Diesel is heading in that direction of being cleaner. Injection pressures are presently as high as 30K psi, unless some one has heard otherwise. Now imagine 60 - 80K psi, with multiple pulses on the order of a dozen or so, instead of three, as you find on my CRD. Add USLD, a particulate trap, and so much for PM. Once the sulfur ls out, I feel catalytic converters can kill most of the NOx. Gassers make NOx too, but to a lesser degree than diesel and still require a catalyst to knock it down further. Diesels are lean burning engines in comparison to gassers, something that unfortunately encourages NOx formation.
It will eventually come to pass that either form of motivation will be equally clean and equally economical. I have nothing against hybrids save for their complexity. If they were simpler and used a renewable fuel source other than petroleum based fuel, I would have bought one. I like diesel in spite of some the present issues which are not in my hands. I can use a completely renewable fuel source in my CRD. Unfortunately gasolene is a one way deal. Ethanol, ETOH, is viable, but expensive to make and in present form, gas engines are not designed to maximize what power ETOH has. ETOH is significantly less energy dense then gasolene. Methanol is less energy dense ETOH.
1 "NEED" to get rid of
2 use less of
3 get off the dependency of and ON foreign oil
4 threatens our national security
5 yada yada
6 etc etc etc.
It is NOT or has the currently capability of being an ALTERNATIVE fuel like diesel CAN be. Worst come to worse or even better come to best, you can "brew" diesel in your back yard, although the authorities would probably not like people doing this. This is damn near impossible with unleaded regular.
Diesel can be domestically PRODUCED ( from an interesting and growing array of conventional and non conventional sources. This is WAY unlike domestic oil, which even as they advocate for less foreign oil use/and dependency and even less domestic oil use, they lobby and successfully I might hasten to cut down domestic supply and discovery. It is also interesting they advocate the living in cities, which BELIEVE it or not USE WAY MORE ENERGY than in non cities.
It also sadly has been proven (in NYC 9/11 for those with short memories) a more than easy and symbolic terrorist target with the attending massive loss of life property and psychic damage. etc, etc. Shoot we are even in a "WAR" because of it.
There are many that will argue with you on this subject. According to a Toyota study on the Life Cycle of a hybrid and a non-hybrid, the pollution in manufacturing far outstrips the driving of the car for the first 150k miles. Sulfur oxides, particulate matter, and hydro carbons are much higher in the manufacturing of a car. More so in the hybrids. You would have to drive the car at least 300k miles to match the SOx produced in manufacturing. You could never put enough miles to match the PM & HC produced in manufacturing. There is a lot of denial and blinders, with regards to our polluting other countries so we can have a new car every 3 years. GHG is the only place the hybrids shine brightly. Gotta make the Kyoto treaty work, no matter how much other crap is dumped into the atmosphere.
Diesel development is proceeding very quickly. We are now seeing diesel race car engines. Diesels may not ever rule, but they will be an alternative for a long time to come due to the combination of fuel economy with the new-found power, and clean-burning performance on the horizon too.