Do you know if the PSD is considered a hybrid component? If not, then it is covered under the 60,000/5yr warranty, otherwise it is 150,000 ten year (in CARB states).
It is pretty well documented that they expect the Prius to get around a $3,000 tax CREDIT. That means instead of paying $20,000 in federal taxes, I'll pay $17,000. Sweet!! The 23.5k price is list price LESS the expected tax credit. As to the 150,000 warranty, you are covered for ALL hybrid related components. More sweetness!! There is also a 60,000 mile 5 year warranty on the powertrain. Everything else is 3/36.
You gotta see smart/key entry exit in action. It makes the old method SO 80's!!!!!!! Have the lil' FOB in your pocket, open the door and press a button to start. No fumbling for keys. Love it!!!
So...if you are aware of a vehicle that has the features of a decked out Prius (no leather) and the price is 23.5k (clean emissions a must), let me know. I'd love to buy one!!!
Paid $19,324 for the USED hybrid, and negotiated a price on a comparable mileage, comparably equipped Civic EX on the USED lot that same day for $17,800. Had my choice.
Quoting lemmer:
A used Civic EX for 17,800?
That is more than the cost of a new one would have been at the time.
not this one - it was loaded to the gills, but with stuff I did not necessarily want or need. 6-disc CD changer, moonroof, tint, etc.
Hybrid had the one big advantage: 50+ MPG
So that's your comparison? The one used Hybrid that some dealer had on the lot compared to the one used EX that the same dealer had on his lot? Wow, that's some comparison. The discussion that we were having was about known quantities (aka NEW vehicles). I'm sure you realize that this could hardly be considered a real comparison that others could shop with.
I saw an ad for the Hybrid.....went to the dealer.....told him to show me the best USED CIVIC EX on his lot....drove both, compared both, got best prices for both, bought the one I selected....
No one else could do that? ??? ?? ??? :confuse: :confuse: :confuse: :confuse: :confuse:
There were no full system replacements available from wrecks back then (a much cheaper solution), so naturally a rebuild would consume a ton of time.
You tell us what it would cost if the HSD system went out. We know a simple catalytic convertor is approximately $2100. We also have folks that have had to replace sensors of one sort or another at $600 per pop. How many sensors are in the Prius II? Maybe you have a link with the entire car showing all the parts that we can determine for sure just how complex this HSD car really is.
As far as digging through wrecking yards for parts. I quit doing that in 1962. You are just buying someone else's problem. I know I rebuilt transmissions in a wrecking yard while in High School. They only had to last 30 days.
Many diesels have expensive parts to repair. I have read instances of turbo failures as well as assorted other issues. The VW warranty is pretty lame to say the least. At least Toyota backs up their hybrids with a nice sweet warranty. Last I checked, there weren't too many diesel taxi cabs this side of the pond. I wonder why???? Prius.... the amazing hybrid!!!
It is pretty well documented that they expect the Prius to get around a $3,000 tax CREDIT. That means instead of paying $20,000 in federal taxes, I'll pay $17,000. Sweet!! The 23.5k price is list price LESS the expected tax credit.
The Prius is a nice car for that money, no doubt.
As to the 150,000 warranty, you are covered for ALL hybrid related components. More sweetness!! There is also a 60,000 mile 5 year warranty on the powertrain. Everything else is 3/36.
For comparison, here's a list of what the Hondacare warranty does NOT cover (it's a MUCH shorter list than what it DOES cover!):
Parts other than genuine HONDA or AMERICAN HONDA authorized parts; wiper blades, battery (except for the nickel-metal hydride battery in hybrid VEHICLES); cables; belts; hoses; timing belt replacement when performed as routine maintenance: exhaust system, catalytic converter; brake system wear items such as drums/rotors, shoes/pads; clutch disc, pressure plate; throw out bearing, external shift linkages; glass, mirror glass, body parts; body structure, panels; bright metal; sheet metal; paint; bumpers; moldings; lenses; bulbs (except for dashboard bulbs); sealed beams; fuses; weather-strips (except for window run channels); outside ornamentation; wheel covers/ornaments; rims: studs; fastening/securing hardware; body seals; squeaks, rattles; buttons; carpet; dash pad; window handles; knobs; rearview mirror; trim; upholstery; electronic/audio accessories and cellular telephones other than AMERICAN HONDA AUTHORIZED ELECTRONIC/AUDIO ACCESSORIES; tires; seat belts; airbag(s), and the Safety Restraint System (except for the SRS control unit and cable reel.)
You gotta see smart/key entry exit in action. It makes the old method SO 80's!!!!!!! Have the lil' FOB in your pocket, open the door and press a button to start. No fumbling for keys. Love it!!!
Sounds cool! I've got a consultant in today who's got one on order and he's expecting it in late January. He's excited about it. Like I said, they are NOT for me yet, but I can appreciate the technology.
No, because you bought the used HCH when the market for them was soft. Honda had a hard time giving the HCH and HAH away until the last gas crisis. Look back at sales on the HCH for 17 months ago.
Yes, you will recoup in your situation. How about the guy that wants one now? In CA where the most hybrids are sold the dealers are marking the 2006 HCH up $3000 to $5000. Pencil that out against a Civic EX.
No, because you bought the used HCH when the market for them was soft. Honda had a hard time giving the HCH and HAH away until the last gas crisis. Look back at sales on the HCH for 17 months ago.
Yes, you will recoup in your situation. How about the guy that wants one now? In CA where the most hybrids are sold the dealers are marking the 2006 HCH up $3000 to $5000. Pencil that out against a Civic EX.
That was my point, as well. I just bought a 2006 Civic EX for $1,000 UNDER MSRP.
Look on cars.com for used Civic 2004 hybrids. There are 63 of them priced between 15K and 19K. Any of them at a dealer? Yep. Will that dealer have comparable used 2004 Civic EXes on the lot? Yep.
Anyone can do, today, what I did 17 months ago. Compare the best 2004 EX on the lot versus a 2004 HCH and get a decently good negotiated price on either one.
Compare the best 2004 EX on the lot versus a 2004 HCH and get a decently good negotiated price on either one.
If you can narrow that several thousand dollar gap buying a used HCH vs new, they are not holding their value. How many of those you are pulling up have under 5000 miles? That is the biggest fear that most people would have is getting a used hybrid and having huge repair bills. To buy one with 50k miles it would have to be no more than 50% of the original price.
I have tried buying used vehicles. I looked for a month for a decent PU truck. They either had 200k miles or they wanted more than I could buy a new one for. You got a good deal for you. It is not that easy to do. You paid more than I would pay for a used car based on MSRP/Invoice.
Remember I posted yesterday or the day before how my 2004 HCH would sell Private Party right now for only $538 below what I bought it for 17 months ago? That's almost impossibly good resale value.
All Civics hold their value well, however, especially the EX which is usually loaded to begin with.
The hybrid premium (if you wanna keep calling it that) get diminished by the tax credit in 2006. I believe I read that the Civic would be eligible for between 2,000 -2,500. Nice and sweet. I love the look of the new Civic, especially the side mirrors with the turn signals embedded.
Congrats on your new car! Any reason why you passed on the Accord?
Gas mileage, mainly. But also for a comparably equipped Accord it would have been a few grand more, and I was already stretching what I wanted to pay by buying the EX over the LX (which is what my 2004 was). Maybe next time I'll look at the Accords. I also should look at the CRV's...those are priced pretty nicely, too...and I'm sure the dealer would deal more on those (and the Accords for that matter - one dealer told me he'd sell me as many Accords at invoice as I wanted, but NOT the Civic). It would have been difficult for me to justify buying a new car (I only made 17 payment on the "old" car!) that got LESS FE than my existing car. I REALLY liked the looks, features, and safety of the new Civic. Had they not updated the Civic in so many ways, I'd definitely still be driving the 2004.
"There's another well document case of exceeding 200,000 miles on my website (Jesse's page). And his most recent email stated the odometer of his Prius was at 203,400 and the system was still running just fine. "
On TDICLUB.com there is a documented TDI with 623,000 (or so) which bit the dust due to an accident not caused by the TDI driver.
According to the LA Times, you could have bought a 2006 Civic Hybrid after Jan 1st and been ahead sooner than you think:
Pull out your calculators. Let's say I was interested in a 2006 Honda Civic — because, well, I am — and I was debating between the sedan and the hybrid. With a navigation system, the hybrid costs $23,350; a similarly equipped Civic EX sedan costs $20,560. The hybrid premium equals $2,790.
The combined fuel economy of the non-hybrid is 35 mpg; the hybrid, 50 mpg, a theoretical difference of 15 mpg. In five years of average driving (15,000 miles per year), I would save 643 gallons, or $1,929 (assuming a gas price of $3 per gallon), with the hybrid. Combined with the current tax deduction (a savings of $580 in my tax bracket) I recoup 90% of the hybrid premium in five years. If I were to buy the Honda Civic hybrid in January 2006, the numbers look even better. The federal tax deduction becomes a credit worth $2,100. Combined with my fuel savings I actually come out about $1,200 ahead.
And that one is even using the "more expensive NAV" hybrid for the comparo. So even by paying $1000 dollars UNDER MSRP for the EX, you could still be ahead minimum $200 in 5 years had you gone with an MSRP Hybrid.... :shades:
If I am not mistaken this year has a cap of 25,000. BUT the accelerated depreciation is real sweet. Check your accountancy type, for the rules can change a lot.
So for example my 94 TLC (39k) was done with 25,000 in first year 5/6 acer dep: the following 10% first year (in addition to the 25k) 20% ea in years 2,3,4,5, and 10% in year 6.
there is a documented TDI with 623,000 (or so) which bit the dust due to an accident not caused by the TDI driver.
What a shame it was just getting broken in good. I don't think I will put that many miles in my lifetime. I hate driving except for pleasure. I try to stay off the roads during rush hours.
I think it was you who posted the take of the Edmunds.com tester. I also would agree. If one are a "road" warrior a TDI is de rigor. If one is a sales type with D/T Boston as your beat, Prius/HCL.
Anyone read about this guy that has One million miles on his Volvo. Granted he had to change alot of parts. I wonder how many cars out there even go past 200,000 miles, probably not too many. I know I would not want to rely on ANY car after it started getting up there in the miles.
That is exactly what I have said. If your driving 20k plus miles per year, and 0-50 MPH is your normal commute. The Prius, Insight or HCH are ideally suited. If you are commuting 75 MPH + on the Interstate. The handling, safety and mileage of the Jetta TDI, make it the ideal vehicle. Remember the IIHS just gave the Jetta the highest side impact rating for a compact car. All the VWs have great safety ratings and records.
I can certainly understand how you would feel about this. However, I have done it twice. Once with a 1970 VW Beetle app 250,000 miles and the 1987 Toyota Landcruiser app 250,000 miles. With the TDI @ 28k per year I am on track to do it (250k)in 8.9 years (6.43 years looking forward from this date).
Toyota had to do something different than the early LC. I should have kept mine and put Chevy running gear into it. That was the rage in the late 1960s. It had a good frame and axles. Even the 3 speed was usable. Just the engine was a loser. Many got converted to the 283CI Chevy V8. They were screamers for the day. You could buy the TLC for $2400 throw away the engine. Put in a V8 and still be less money than a new V6 Jeep.
Absolutely!!! If I was anywhere near where you lived, I would be more than happy to assist. I truly hope your vehicle makes it to the milestones you wish to achieve. Sometimes owning a car is just luck. I've been fortunate and have only owned a few lemons. I don't consider the Liberty a lemon even though I was never satisfied with the pull the right and vibration at 65-70. Never could figure it out. Biggest lemon was the Chrysler Sebring (1995). Tranny went at 12k miles. After the warranty repair, I traded it for a 1996 A4. Pretty trouble free for 47k miles. Had a minor electrical issue and a rear door that would not unlock from inside.
Yup! I hear you loud and clear. There really isn't much that has stood the test of time than the Chevrolet V-8 ala 350 cu in. (supertech push rod V8 ) I understand that if I had made the conversion it would probably deliver 22-25 mpg. I was leaning toward the 5 speed manual.
Actually I, like you should have kept the (1987) Toyota Landcruiser. Among other things it would have let me take a look at the clutch with 250,000 miles and see how much it actually had left to go. At the time I sold it, I had too many cars, the kids were small and I was running two business', so spare time was really at a premium; and the guy offered me 9k for a 16k vehicle.
The most interesting about it at the time was it was logistically supported by Toyota but made by Arakawa?. I am sure yours like mine was literally tank like.
So no I do not feel nor share the trepidation some folks feel at the 100k mark.
For sure! The last lemon I had any remote association was a mid 1970's Pontiac Catalina V8 which my Dad had. These were the days when GM Union Workers were welding some customers' doors shut as an expression of quality control and satisfaction at having a GM line job. I guess being out of work was considered a better alternative.
My parents had a 1975 Impala with the 350 V8. It didn't go past 80,000 miles. I guess there is luck with any car. Now the shoe is on the other foot. The Japanese and Germans make far superior engines than American car makers. A great deal now is the Saturn Vue with the Honda engine.
..."That's pretty weak. The choice of HSD in Camry next summer will easily prove it too."...
What is weak is your view point. I am glad you don't dictate the market. Also it would have been hard to do (my) the 69,000 miles from 2003 to now 12/05 on an "AIR" Camry which you say will come out in summer 2006. Or are we just trying to imply you have a way better fantasy life?
The choice of HSD in Camry next summer will easily prove it too.
You have obviously never driven a VW TDI. I rented a Camry this summer in Victoria. It was an OK car. Nothing to get me interested in buying one. You are so caught up in the hybrid technology that you forget other important aspects of driving a car. Mileage and emissions are not the end all for buying a vehicle. Those are two of many issues facing the car buyer. If Toyota dribbles the Camry hybrid out like they have the Prius, you will hear the same complaints. If the Camry gets up close to 45 MPG it should all but wipe out the Prius sales. I don't think anything Toyota can do will bring the Camry hybrid up to the level of a VW Passat TDI. I am more than willing to give one a go.
So here is what I say to you John go drive a VW TDI, wring it out on some winding roads. You will be putting your Prius up for sale. Toyota does not match German handling and build quality......
That's your rebuttal! You didn't even explain what those "other important aspects" are.
Regardless, Camry has already proven to have them. It is the #1 selling car in the US because of that. Improved efficiency & emissions will add to that.
As for sales of Camry competing with Prius, that doesn't even make any sense. One is a sedan. The other is a hatchback. And what difference would it make anyway? The point is to sell HSD, not any specific vehicle.
Good build... HORRIBLE dealerships, terrible repair frequencies and their darling TDI scores a 1 which is the lowest you can get on the EPA scale. I've owned 3 VW/Audi cars which are extremely high maintenance vehicles. The Audi is nice but they have to entice you with free maintenance. Toyota makes extremely reliable vehicles. JD Power rates the Prius higher than the TDI. Car & Driver placed it behind the Prius in their comparo. I've driven the Prius with aftermarket tires on country roads and it rides fine. I would not want to even go near a car that scored a 1 from the EPA. Glad they're not sold here in NY.
"So here is what I say to you John go drive a VW TDI, wring it out on some winding roads. You will be putting your Prius up for sale. Toyota does not match German handling and build quality"
I also think the Prius makes sense if ones company is going to pay the 44.5 cents per mile (IRS) in performance of work duties. Also if ones primary purpose is stop and go then one needs to look at; can the Prius also do the occasional road/long distant trip. So for the TDI I look at it completely the opposite, its a good ROAD car and can it also do stop and go. I think in both scenarios the answer is a yes/yes and yes/yes.
I have to tell you I did a 6200 mile across the southern USA trip from literally sea to shining sea. I was very impressed with the ranging on the TDI. It is a bit funny to see 1000 plus miles per day as do able with one person. On the return cross country literally took me 2 1/2 days. (I was a day ahead of Katrina)
On another trip I did 300 stop and go miles in D/T Las Vegas!?
Ref post 1847: Also if ones primary purpose is stop and go then one needs to look at; can the Prius also do the occasional road/long distant trip. So for the TDI I look at it completely the opposite, its a good ROAD car and can it also do stop and go. I think in both scenarios the answer is a yes/yes and yes/yes.
Thank you ruking1 I have thought all this time that it was a given that hybrids are best for around town and short trips and diesels for hitting the road. This is not to say they will not do well around town and road trips, but if I’m going to the other side of the mountains and into Idaho and Montana, I want a TDI.
> I have thought all this time that it was a given that hybrids are best for around town and short trips and diesels for hitting the road.
That is a misconception.
An automatic diesel gets the same MPG cruising on the highway as the hybrid. But when you drive in stop & slow traffic, the MPG on the automatic diesel plummets. The exact opposite happens with the hybrid, MPG actually increases.
In other words, the hybrid is the better choice since it provides great efficiency for *BOTH* types of driving. The automatic diesel only favors one.
Actually I believe C & D tested the TDI in city traffic and it wasn't that great. They only got low 30's and the Prius got low 50's. I am not sure if the TDI they tested was the manual or the auto.
On another note, I find it interesting that the VW isn't making more TDIs available to its VW network in America. They are creating an environment that allows their dealers to charge over MSRP for the TDIs. Why aren't TDIs available in inventory? Why complain about the lack of Prius if VW is doing the same for the TDI???
Resale values for diesel vehicles are remarkably high, since there are so few available in the first place. In fact, only 35,000 new TDI models total from VW were sold in the US for 2004. (There were 100,000 Prius in the US for 2005.)
Imagine the outcry there would be if VW suddenly provided a dramatic increase in supply here. Some diesel supporters would not be happy.
I tell you.. those mileage numbers for the diesel version are impressive. If they refined the motor a bit more, perhaps it would be a better choice. The mileage difference is nearly 15 MPG. That is substantial. If I were in the UK, I would put up with the diesel shortcomings.
Comments
The 23.5k price is list price LESS the expected tax credit. As to the 150,000 warranty, you are covered for ALL hybrid related components. More sweetness!! There is also a 60,000 mile 5 year warranty on the powertrain. Everything else is 3/36.
You gotta see smart/key entry exit in action. It makes the old method SO 80's!!!!!!! Have the lil' FOB in your pocket, open the door and press a button to start. No fumbling for keys. Love it!!!
So...if you are aware of a vehicle that has the features of a decked out Prius (no leather) and the price is 23.5k (clean emissions a must), let me know. I'd love to buy one!!!
Quoting lemmer:
A used Civic EX for 17,800?
That is more than the cost of a new one would have been at the time.
not this one - it was loaded to the gills, but with stuff I did not necessarily want or need. 6-disc CD changer, moonroof, tint, etc.
Hybrid had the one big advantage: 50+ MPG
So that's your comparison? The one used Hybrid that some dealer had on the lot compared to the one used EX that the same dealer had on his lot? Wow, that's some comparison. The discussion that we were having was about known quantities (aka NEW vehicles). I'm sure you realize that this could hardly be considered a real comparison that others could shop with.
Warner
No one else could do that? ??? ?? ??? :confuse: :confuse: :confuse: :confuse: :confuse:
You should have been able to buy a Civic EX for more like $15-16K in like new condition, or an actual new one for $17K at the most.
We could argue this all day, and that shows why using new prices works a lot better.
You tell us what it would cost if the HSD system went out. We know a simple catalytic convertor is approximately $2100. We also have folks that have had to replace sensors of one sort or another at $600 per pop. How many sensors are in the Prius II? Maybe you have a link with the entire car showing all the parts that we can determine for sure just how complex this HSD car really is.
As far as digging through wrecking yards for parts. I quit doing that in 1962. You are just buying someone else's problem. I know I rebuilt transmissions in a wrecking yard while in High School. They only had to last 30 days.
The 23.5k price is list price LESS the expected tax credit.
The Prius is a nice car for that money, no doubt.
As to the 150,000 warranty, you are covered for ALL hybrid related components. More sweetness!! There is also a 60,000 mile 5 year warranty on the powertrain. Everything else is 3/36.
For comparison, here's a list of what the Hondacare warranty does NOT cover (it's a MUCH shorter list than what it DOES cover!):
Parts other than genuine HONDA or AMERICAN HONDA authorized parts; wiper blades, battery (except for the nickel-metal hydride battery in hybrid VEHICLES); cables; belts; hoses; timing belt replacement when performed as routine maintenance: exhaust system, catalytic converter; brake system wear items such as drums/rotors, shoes/pads; clutch disc, pressure plate; throw out bearing, external shift linkages; glass, mirror glass, body parts; body structure, panels; bright metal; sheet metal; paint; bumpers; moldings; lenses; bulbs (except for dashboard bulbs); sealed beams; fuses; weather-strips (except for window run channels); outside ornamentation; wheel covers/ornaments; rims: studs; fastening/securing hardware; body seals; squeaks, rattles; buttons; carpet; dash pad; window handles; knobs; rearview mirror; trim; upholstery; electronic/audio accessories and cellular telephones other than AMERICAN HONDA AUTHORIZED ELECTRONIC/AUDIO ACCESSORIES; tires; seat belts; airbag(s), and the Safety Restraint System (except for the SRS control unit and cable reel.)
You gotta see smart/key entry exit in action. It makes the old method SO 80's!!!!!!! Have the lil' FOB in your pocket, open the door and press a button to start. No fumbling for keys. Love it!!!
Sounds cool! I've got a consultant in today who's got one on order and he's expecting it in late January. He's excited about it. Like I said, they are NOT for me yet, but I can appreciate the technology.
Warner
No, because you bought the used HCH when the market for them was soft. Honda had a hard time giving the HCH and HAH away until the last gas crisis. Look back at sales on the HCH for 17 months ago.
Yes, you will recoup in your situation. How about the guy that wants one now? In CA where the most hybrids are sold the dealers are marking the 2006 HCH up $3000 to $5000. Pencil that out against a Civic EX.
No, because you bought the used HCH when the market for them was soft. Honda had a hard time giving the HCH and HAH away until the last gas crisis. Look back at sales on the HCH for 17 months ago.
Yes, you will recoup in your situation. How about the guy that wants one now? In CA where the most hybrids are sold the dealers are marking the 2006 HCH up $3000 to $5000. Pencil that out against a Civic EX.
That was my point, as well. I just bought a 2006 Civic EX for $1,000 UNDER MSRP.
Warner
Anyone can do, today, what I did 17 months ago. Compare the best 2004 EX on the lot versus a 2004 HCH and get a decently good negotiated price on either one.
If you can narrow that several thousand dollar gap buying a used HCH vs new, they are not holding their value. How many of those you are pulling up have under 5000 miles? That is the biggest fear that most people would have is getting a used hybrid and having huge repair bills. To buy one with 50k miles it would have to be no more than 50% of the original price.
I have tried buying used vehicles. I looked for a month for a decent PU truck. They either had 200k miles or they wanted more than I could buy a new one for. You got a good deal for you. It is not that easy to do. You paid more than I would pay for a used car based on MSRP/Invoice.
All Civics hold their value well, however, especially the EX which is usually loaded to begin with.
Gas mileage, mainly. But also for a comparably equipped Accord it would have been a few grand more, and I was already stretching what I wanted to pay by buying the EX over the LX (which is what my 2004 was). Maybe next time I'll look at the Accords. I also should look at the CRV's...those are priced pretty nicely, too...and I'm sure the dealer would deal more on those (and the Accords for that matter - one dealer told me he'd sell me as many Accords at invoice as I wanted, but NOT the Civic). It would have been difficult for me to justify buying a new car (I only made 17 payment on the "old" car!) that got LESS FE than my existing car. I REALLY liked the looks, features, and safety of the new Civic. Had they not updated the Civic in so many ways, I'd definitely still be driving the 2004.
Warner
On TDICLUB.com there is a documented TDI with 623,000 (or so) which bit the dust due to an accident not caused by the TDI driver.
ME TOO, Got a truck, RV & tractor under that write-off. Not quite a 100 grand, but every little bit helps.
According to the LA Times, you could have bought a 2006 Civic Hybrid after Jan 1st and been ahead sooner than you think:
Pull out your calculators. Let's say I was interested in a 2006 Honda Civic — because, well, I am — and I was debating between the sedan and the hybrid. With a navigation system, the hybrid costs $23,350; a similarly equipped Civic EX sedan costs $20,560. The hybrid premium equals $2,790.
The combined fuel economy of the non-hybrid is 35 mpg; the hybrid, 50 mpg, a theoretical difference of 15 mpg. In five years of average driving (15,000 miles per year), I would save 643 gallons, or $1,929 (assuming a gas price of $3 per gallon), with the hybrid. Combined with the current tax deduction (a savings of $580 in my tax bracket) I recoup 90% of the hybrid premium in five years. If I were to buy the Honda Civic hybrid in January 2006, the numbers look even better. The federal tax deduction becomes a credit worth $2,100. Combined with my fuel savings I actually come out about $1,200 ahead.
http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-neil12oct12,0,917822- .story?coll=la-home-headlines&track=hppromobox
And that one is even using the "more expensive NAV" hybrid for the comparo. So even by paying $1000 dollars UNDER MSRP for the EX, you could still be ahead minimum $200 in 5 years had you gone with an MSRP Hybrid.... :shades:
So for example my 94 TLC (39k) was done with 25,000 in first year 5/6 acer dep: the following 10% first year (in addition to the 25k) 20% ea in years 2,3,4,5, and 10% in year 6.
What a shame it was just getting broken in good. I don't think I will put that many miles in my lifetime. I hate driving except for pleasure. I try to stay off the roads during rush hours.
http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/details.php?id1=3&id2=219
http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/details.php?id1=3&id2=193
I used the 2005 Passat which is LARGER than the Jetta. I expect the Jetta to do as well.
Toyota had to do something different than the early LC. I should have kept mine and put Chevy running gear into it. That was the rage in the late 1960s. It had a good frame and axles. Even the 3 speed was usable. Just the engine was a loser. Many got converted to the 283CI Chevy V8. They were screamers for the day. You could buy the TLC for $2400 throw away the engine. Put in a V8 and still be less money than a new V6 Jeep.
Actually I, like you should have kept the (1987) Toyota Landcruiser. Among other things it would have let me take a look at the clutch with 250,000 miles and see how much it actually had left to go. At the time I sold it, I had too many cars, the kids were small and I was running two business', so spare time was really at a premium; and the guy offered me 9k for a 16k vehicle.
The most interesting about it at the time was it was logistically supported by Toyota but made by Arakawa?. I am sure yours like mine was literally tank like.
So no I do not feel nor share the trepidation some folks feel at the 100k mark.
After repeated asking of what you will say to people to attract them to a diesel, that's the best you can come up with?
That's pretty weak. The choice of HSD in Camry next summer will easily prove it too.
JOHN
What is weak is your view point. I am glad you don't dictate the market. Also it would have been hard to do (my) the 69,000 miles from 2003 to now 12/05 on an "AIR" Camry which you say will come out in summer 2006. Or are we just trying to imply you have a way better fantasy life?
You have obviously never driven a VW TDI. I rented a Camry this summer in Victoria. It was an OK car. Nothing to get me interested in buying one. You are so caught up in the hybrid technology that you forget other important aspects of driving a car. Mileage and emissions are not the end all for buying a vehicle. Those are two of many issues facing the car buyer. If Toyota dribbles the Camry hybrid out like they have the Prius, you will hear the same complaints. If the Camry gets up close to 45 MPG it should all but wipe out the Prius sales. I don't think anything Toyota can do will bring the Camry hybrid up to the level of a VW Passat TDI. I am more than willing to give one a go.
So here is what I say to you John go drive a VW TDI, wring it out on some winding roads. You will be putting your Prius up for sale. Toyota does not match German handling and build quality......
Regardless, Camry has already proven to have them. It is the #1 selling car in the US because of that. Improved efficiency & emissions will add to that.
As for sales of Camry competing with Prius, that doesn't even make any sense. One is a sedan. The other is a hatchback. And what difference would it make anyway? The point is to sell HSD, not any specific vehicle.
JOHN
I also think the Prius makes sense if ones company is going to pay the 44.5 cents per mile (IRS) in performance of work duties. Also if ones primary purpose is stop and go then one needs to look at; can the Prius also do the occasional road/long distant trip. So for the TDI I look at it completely the opposite, its a good ROAD car and can it also do stop and go. I think in both scenarios the answer is a yes/yes and yes/yes.
I have to tell you I did a 6200 mile across the southern USA trip from literally sea to shining sea. I was very impressed with the ranging on the TDI. It is a bit funny to see 1000 plus miles per day as do able with one person. On the return cross country literally took me 2 1/2 days. (I was a day ahead of Katrina)
On another trip I did 300 stop and go miles in D/T Las Vegas!?
Thank you ruking1 I have thought all this time that it was a given that hybrids are best for around town and short trips and diesels for hitting the road. This is not to say they will not do well around town and road trips, but if I’m going to the other side of the mountains and into Idaho and Montana, I want a TDI.
That is a misconception.
An automatic diesel gets the same MPG cruising on the highway as the hybrid. But when you drive in stop & slow traffic, the MPG on the automatic diesel plummets. The exact opposite happens with the hybrid, MPG actually increases.
In other words, the hybrid is the better choice since it provides great efficiency for *BOTH* types of driving. The automatic diesel only favors one.
JOHN
On another note, I find it interesting that the VW isn't making more TDIs available to its VW network in America. They are creating an environment that allows their dealers to charge over MSRP for the TDIs. Why aren't TDIs available in inventory? Why complain about the lack of Prius if VW is doing the same for the TDI???
Maybe they will make a hybrid version of this car, but the diesel is less recommended than the petrol version....
Imagine the outcry there would be if VW suddenly provided a dramatic increase in supply here. Some diesel supporters would not be happy.
JOHN