The diesel supporters simply have no clue how the market will react in 18 days.
Camry-Hybrid will be revealed then. That will make the push to get people here to embrace diesel significantly harder. It's the very reason I have been grilling them recently, wanting to find out if they have anything new to say. They obviously don't. Status quo won't get people to switch from gas to diesel.
There are a very few die hards out there that are fans of diesel. If and when clean diesel fuel is available it will be up to manufacturers to introduce diesel cars to the US market. So far I have not read of ANY car manufacturers bringing new diesels to the US market. You have the TDI (deliberately in short supply c/o VW), then you have the way expensive E class Merc and if you want an SUV you can have the CRD. Nothing else really out there. At least for now?? No sedans on the horizon as far as I can tell.
Imagine the outcry there would be if VW suddenly provided a dramatic increase in supply here.
How would that be any different than Toyota bringing enough Prii to stabilize the market? I for one would applaud any company bringing in more diesel cars. Say BMW or Honda or Nissan. As long as the CARB states block the sale of the better choice in fuel, I will buy them and drive them and sell them at a profit in those states.
Along that line, CARB did do extensive tests comparing buses using CNG & ULSD. The ULSD powered buses with particulate filters came out as cleaner overall than the CNG.
Every diesel car introduced in the last 3 years has far outsold the manufacturers expectations. You see the Europeans think the Americans are in the dark ages, incapable of making sound choices on anything including cars. I hope they are starting to see we are not all ignorant of the superior choice of diesel over gas.
The same diesel stigmas in the US existed in Canada as well. Yet over the past few years, over 40% of Jettas/Golfs sold in Canada have been the TDIs. This is despite the fact VW only has the outdated 90HP TDIs for sale here due to dirty fuel.
When the new PD TDI's are available in NA with clean fuel, plus maybe a few other manufacturers as well, there's no real need to market them.
People can look at stat sheets, reliability and longevity records available from Europe, the inherent efficiency advantage of diesels and come to their own conclusions.
When you compare cost-per-mile of an Accord iCDTi to a Prius or a Camry Hybrid over a 10-year period, I'm willing to bet the Accord will be 20% lower. It's no contest.
Maybe they will make a hybrid version of this car, but the diesel is less recommended than the petrol version...
You read the entire article, didn't you. The point of the article was there were other small diesels in Europe that were better than the Yaris. So what? Trust Toyota to improve it. And BTW, if the Yaris diesel was sold in America in its current form, people would still buy it over the VW TDIs.
FOR operating costs, there have been several posts on this interest site that clearly delineate the "operating" costs per mile. The TDI operating costs are cheaper per mile than the Prius for example.
Upshot for me to "solve one section of my transportation problems" I got both a TDI and a Honda Civic, even after serious consideration of the Prius/HCL. If I had more of a social statement to make or needed to exude more GREEN snottiness, or even if it would make clients throw money and orders toward me because I was driving a Prius, (you know, drink beer and the girls/guys will fall all over you scenario), for sure I would have gotten the Prius/HCL. I did not have these requirements.
Lastly, I bought the above combination due to the fact that in the TDI landscape there is really only one player VW. So if ALL the oems bring corresponding diesel models, I truly think we will much more rapidly increase the PVF % probably to 45% and beyond just as in Euro.
2001 Volkswagens tend to be the most unreliable of recent Volkswagens.
Very good observation. As can be seen in the record of complaints, the problems have diminished remarkably. Maybe everyone should check their car of choice and see if they have improved as much as the Jetta. Sales are also a good indicator of improved reliability. The Jettas have sold 15% more cars to date this year than last. Toyota has gained 2% with the Camry & Corolla. Honda has lost ground with the Accord & Civic.
What a difference a year or two makes!... for example, 2001/2002 had probably more complaints than normal about the rear brake pads (and rotors) wearing down prematurely (in some cases 10-12k) . So in the (Demming) spirit of constant improvement VW made changes (specifically they changed the rear proportioning bias and used better rear brake pads) On my 2003, I project 100-110k on the rear brake pads (and rotors). It might be more, it might be less. Will let folks know if they are interested.
> People can look at stat sheets, reliability and longevity records available from Europe, the inherent efficiency advantage of diesels and come to their own conclusions.
That is the very definition of STATUS QUO.
Diesel supporters simply aren't doing anything new to help make that data more accessible. Hybrid supporters are.
Neat site. Nice Trend for VW. I took a look at the 2005 Jeep Liberty and the 2005 Toyota Prius. Guess who lost by a three to one margin? (Hint: it was not the Jeep.) Same cars, MY 2004 Jeep 67, Prius 185
Diesel supporters simply aren't doing anything new to help make that data more accessible. Hybrid supporters are.
Give us time. You started out with a lot of high powered Hollywood hoopla. Toyota made a great move by unveiling the Prius to a lot of Hollywood dignitaries. It has taken time for the REAL environmentalists in the entertainment business to show up with a plan for biodiesel. A practical alternative to fossil fuel.
Also remember the same people in Hollywood that praise the hybrids supported a man for President that feels that the poor should not be allowed to drive a car. His solution was to make gas so expensive only the rich would be able to drive.
How many Prius have been sold in the EU? Will they ever challenge the diesel in the rest of the world, Japan excluded.
Hybrid and diesel owners tend to rehash the same arguments.
Hybrid owners argument: diesel is stinky -> diesel is expensive -> diesel (by which they only mean Volkswagen) is unreliable -> diesel is polluting -> start over at diesel is stinky
As each argument gets refuted, hybrid owner's move to the next one. Then, once they reach the last point, they'll start over again.
Diesel owners argument: hybrids are much more expensive than similar standard models -> hybrids batteries will eventually die -> hybrid repairs are expensive -> hybrid gas mileage isn't all that good in comparision
To which the hybrid owners don't really refute any of this arguments, they tend to simply deflect to a perceived diesel fault. Which then gets rebutted.
----
It's interesting jumping into a thread after 90~ pages have already been posted. You get to read all the previous articles in all at once. And the above really sums up the two sides on the issue.
YUP!! The facto of the matter is entities like the city country states, ALL have lamented the rogue GASSER polluters !!!! Who incidently cause almost 80% of excess polution!!! (Their statistics; not mine) They even have 800 HOT lines so you can report them. One more ignored tenant in the Church of Perpetual Denial?
"To which the hybrid owners don't really refute any of this arguments, they tend to simply deflect to a perceived diesel fault. Which then gets rebutted. "
Masochistic on the hybrid side, eh?
Actually, outside this board, on a practical level they just suck it up and pay more. And to be honest, I have nothing against them doing that! The issue for me: they advocate that EVERYBODY ELSE should be mandated to pay more!! (buy what they buy) For me, on this thread the real frustration is hybrid information about longevity etc is mostly hot air.
So let me state my FANTASY (the beer as nirvana) 1. $13,000 Prius 2. tax credits of up to 10k 3 tax write offs up to 100k 4. 75 mpg 5. cheaper batteries 6. batteries replaced under 300k miles 7. choice of diesel or gasser hybrid 8. higher than what I paid resale value
the reality (in the beer nivana scenario):
1. if I drive I will probably drive DUI, 2. increased liklihood of a drug cause accident and or fatality 3. in less than 20 min I will have to go to the little girls/boys room 4 if I am not careful I will meet a friend named (UP) Chuck.
The real future is in electric cars powered by electricial transmission. No batteries needed.
Put a transmission satellite into orbit, beam a microwave-power beam up to the satellite, who then retransmits it to all the cars with a receiving antenna.
The car then converts the microwave transmission into electrical power for the motor.
It's just like a cell phone set up, only used to power your car.
Well, sometimes I have to agree with gogogodzilla “I couldn't give a rat's patootie about the pollution coming out of my car's tailpipe!” All the info, or lack of info can cause one to say “to heck with it”. :confuse: But the truth is I do care. In my later years I make my trips to town count, not just going for one item. I keep my cars in good condition. And I intend on getting a high mileage passenger car in the coming year. My part, as trivial as it might be, to being a good steward to the environment.
Im off to work for two weeks, so Merry Christmas and Happy New Year everyone, and thanks for making this an interesting and informative place to visit.
Where I grew up (San Francisco) they used to call that public transportation!!At .05 cents per one way the only thing you had to lose was 45 mins and sometimes your life. Only back then they didn't have the fuel to send a satellite to orbit! The city bus route was ringed with electrical wires and all you had to do was not be in the place when the spring loaded wires went berserk and sprung around high power lines and taking out street lights and whatever else was around.
YUP!! The facto of the matter is entities like the city country states, ALL have lamented the rogue GASSER polluters !!!! Who incidently cause almost 80% of excess polution!!! (Their statistics; not mine) They even have 800 HOT lines so you can report them. One more ignored tenant in the Church of Perpetual Denial? I vividly remember about ten years ago in St. Louis seeing a car that was smoking so badly that it literally obscured an entire freeway overpass. I was behind this car stopped at a light and I could only see about 1/4 of the way across the overpass because of the smoke from this car. It was a real traffic hazard and did not smell very good either. Where are the police to ticket vehicles like this? I guess that there just isn't much money in it!
The real future is in electric cars powered by electricial transmission. No batteries needed.
Put a transmission satellite into orbit, beam a microwave-power beam up to the satellite, who then retransmits it to all the cars with a receiving antenna.
The car then converts the microwave transmission into electrical power for the motor.
It's just like a cell phone set up, only used to power your car.
That's the future. What about hydrogen powered fuel cells? Hydrogen in, water out. No other pollutants, no CO2. Clean clean clean!
Hydrogen in, water out. No other pollutants, no CO2. Clean clean clean!
Only holdup is getting the hydrogen out of the water. It now takes more energy to get the hydrogen out of the water than if you just used that energy to propel the car. Most of the hydrogen in use today is generated from Natural Gas. No free lunch or zero emissions with anything on the drawing board currently. I forgot a solar collector the size of Kansas could produce hydrogen.
I think hydrogen fuel cells are just a means to drain money from our taxes into corporate pockets.
"That's the future. What about hydrogen powered fuel cells? Hydrogen in, water out. No other pollutants, no CO2. Clean clean clean! "
Actually there are HUGE obstacles!!!
Commercial viability is estimated at 30 plus years.
That whole market sector is in danger of going the way of GM and CALPINE: slippery slide down slope. Funny how the environmental types don't even buy support (the stocks) of the stuff they advocate.
> It's interesting jumping into a thread after 90~ pages have already been posted. You get to read all the previous articles in all at once. And the above really sums up the two sides on the issue.
90 pages! That's only 6 weeks back. Try over 5 years, as I have done (and documented in my blogs). You get a very, very, very different picture with that timeframe.
One of the most obvious & significant observations is how diesel supporters do all they can to avoid acknowledging the EPA ratings... saying the technology is "much cleaner" now, rather than actually using the same category identifiers that the gas, ethanol, and natural-gas vehicles do.
gagrice says he needs time. After over 5 years of hybrid vs. diesel debates, how much more time could possibly be needed? The purpose of repeating the same discussions over and over and over again is to flush out the weaknesses... of which have been well-documented & promoted by the hybrid supporters to attract consumers to the rapidly growing hybrid market. What do the diesel supporters have?
Quite an interesting thread going on here. Sorta reminds me of the state of our government. You either have left wingers or right wingers. I'm still on the fence. I don't like either.
One of the most obvious & significant observations is how diesel supporters do all they can to avoid acknowledging the EPA ratings.
John, let me try to put a few holes in your hot air balloon. Do we have any other criteria to measure pollution of vehicles other than the EPA? If the one rating given to the current crop of diesels is that bad. Maybe we should rid our streets of the thousands of Toyotas that were sold over the last 10 years that are rated a "ONE" or lower.
That said you know as well as anyone the EPA reformatted their whole 0-10 chart about a year ago. At that time the 2004 VW TDIs were rated as high as a "six". I have no opinion on why they did that only an observation. For my own case. I bought a Passat TDI to have a comfortable superior handling car that got decent mileage. My car has had ULSD in it since the first tank I filled. What would my car rate on the EPA scale? Good question. I went to a smog check station to spend the money to have it tested. I wanted all those fancy figures they put on that sheet when you give them 50 bucks. They had no way to test a diesel under the CARB system. That is great for a diesel owner he saves money on smog checks.
I have asked the few diesel haters on this thread if they have any legitimate documentation that shows where a current 2005 Passat TDI PD would rate using only ULSD. So far nothing but slander & personal attacks on those that would own a diesel. Along with attacks on the manufacturers that import them. Nothing legitimate or factual.
So yes more time is needed to get the test procedures in place and the testing done. Until then all the opinions expressed are of little value. Those that are behind the diesel push in this country are not funded like the hybrid companies, primarily Toyota and to a much lessor extent Ford and Honda. It is mostly the biodiesel industry that are truly interested in eliminating fossil fuel.
Now as gogogodzilla so aptly pointed out. All the negatives with the hybrids are answered with negatives about diesels. Here goes for the umpteeth time.
When can we expect the premium on HSD to be $200 as it was on my VW TDI. In the EU there is little or no premium for a diesel engine. Toyota said we will cut the hybrid cost 50% and raised the price another $600 to $1000 for 2006 or that is the rumor. You can bet if they cut the cost of production it will never be seen in the MSRP.
When will the auto makers warrant the BIG battery for the life of the car? That would eliminate the biggest negative hanging around the hybrid neck.
When will the Prius catalytic convertor & all other parts price drop to that of a Camry non hybrid?
When will Toyota bring enough hybrids to quench the thirst for them? I can look back and find where Toyota said 120k Prii for 2005. They did not make that, unless there are 20k sitting on dealer lots.
How does the EPA rate diesels? What fuel do they use? What premium are you talking about in hybrids? I read that there is some sort of tax credit taking place in a few weeks. IIRC it is somewhere between $2-3k. I prefer nice big sedans that are reliable. I have my eye on the new Toyota Avalon. Any links to show that diesel cars are easy on the environment? Inquring minds want to know. TIA!
How does the EPA rate diesels? What fuel do they use? What premium are you talking about in hybrids?
First welcome to the forum. Those are good questions. I have not been able to determine how diesel cars are tested by the EPA. I think it is one of those government held secrets. I do know that the Test equipment that is required for testing cars in CA is not able to test a diesel, hence they block them from being sold in CA. trucks over a certain weight with diesel engines are exempt from testing also. Is diesel easier on the environment? It takes less to propel a given car a given distance. So less fossil fuel is used and less GHG is put out. To me the beauty of a diesel engine is the ability to use renewable biodiesel, in any mix you want. The most common being B20 which is 20% bio to 80% fossil diesel. Biodiesel is GHG neutral, that makes it ideal for meeting the Kyoto treaty parameters.
The recent energy bill has tax credits for hybrids as well as diesel cars, based on fuel savings over the cars they replaced. So far the figures are all speculation. We will not know for sure until the IRS puts out the 2006 tax code late next year.
I think the Avalon is a fine choice, about as trouble free as the best car Toyota ever built the Cressida.
The point many people are missing is that the diesel engine is now in a position where gassers were 25 to 30 years ago. At this point gassers are cleaner for reasons I posted about a week ago. Emissions control for diesel is still evolving where as gassers, as I see it, have reached the end or nearly the end of where improvement in emissions.
Diesels are catching up and will be just as green in the next few years. I cannot say what the next few years will be but I feel it will be before the end of the decade.
Emissions control for gassers evolved too. We are so accustom to seeing it as a standard item on gassers that we do not give it a second thought, but the cost of adding this equipment came out of our pockets and still comes out of our pockets. The expense that you, John, speak of will be imposed on diesel buyers. I have no doubt about that. I have not seen any numbers on that cost. But you too are continuing to pay for the gasser emissions systems and all the research that went into them and continues to go into them.
Diesel is a good viable alternative to hybrids and will become even more competitive as the fuel gets cleaner and emission systems evolve.
..."The point many people are missing is that the diesel engine is now in a position where gassers were 25 to 30 years ago. At this point gassers are cleaner for reasons I posted about a week ago. Emissions control for diesel is still evolving where as gassers, as I see it, have reached the end or nearly the end of where improvement in emissions. "...
I would agree!! This is most easy to see by asking do you think the gasser hybrid would even meet the diesel standards if it was still burning leaded regular!!? I think even they know the answer. This is probably one of the reasons for perpetual denial. I have posted this a number of times but in the Church of Perpetual Denial, it is perpetually DENIED.!? So truly it is not that folks who use diesel think or deny that #2 diesel does generate some pollution, is is quite literally the users of gassers truly think and act like THEIR stuff doesn't stink. The biggest single strategic mistake on this issue was the legislators' (in the middle 70's when they converted to unleaded regular) NOT converting #2 diesel to the low sulfur gig at that time. Or truly the burning of diesel was then and is still now, no big deal.
I posted in the VW forum about the diesel Passat. I was considering the Avalon as it has impressive performance and above average acceleration. The mileage looks nice on paper too. I always associate diesels with being slow, but that certainly is a misnomer. The only one I know that is fast is the Mercedes version. Anyone know what the performance is for the VW Passat? Is it adequate going up steep hills? What would the gas mileage be traveling at say 70 MPH on a relatively flat freeway.
Well lets see, I have ridden and driven a TDI Passat. It is bigger and much more potent than my VW Jetta TDI. Fuel mileage is less also.
On a Jetta TDI on the road, I routinely blow by even V8's on very long uphill grades. The torque is good on the Jetta, MUCH better on the PASSAT TDI!! The fuel mileage at 70 mph on a Jetta TDI (which is 90 hp and 155 # ft of torque) would easily be between 52-55 mpg, as I routinely get 50 mpg (at 80-85 mph on a long uphill grade 0-4200 ft). At Rocky Mountain altitudes on a 600 or so mile trip from Durango CO to Las Vegas, NV, the fuel mileage was a touch past 48 mpg. If I had been going 70 mph I surmise it would be more like 52/54.
In so far as comparison with the Toyota Avalon, I think it really depends what you want/need/budget etc. Toyota indicates the demographic for the Avalon is late 40's to 60 ish. For example, I would get the Avalon in a heartbeat. It is a great overall car !! But I tend to be more goal oriented/specific in my buying behavior. So some of those considerations, for example led me to get the VW Jetta TDI. As a foil, one of the stable mates is a Corvette Z06.
So if you care to define a bit more, I'd be happy to problem solve with you.
Anyone know what the performance is for the VW Passat? Is it adequate going up steep hills?
I would put it up against anything in it's class using a gas engine. Steep grades are where diesels really shine. Mileage on a flat highway at 70 is easy 40 MPG in the 2005 and newer TDI PD Passat. I have a tendency to drift up closer to 80 on the highways. So my highway mileage is more like 37 MPG. Around town short 2-3 mile trips about 26 MPG. I now have 6500 miles still not broken in and my over all mileage is right at 28 MPG. Mostly 2-3 mile errands and a bit longer on the weekends.
Your best bet is to drive any of the cars you are considering.
I've looked at the fuel mileage ratings on the Passat and Jetta. They don't even approach your numbers. I suspect you exercise a great deal of restraint in achieving those results. I am going to look to take one for a test drive. The Mercedes CDI would be nice if it had AWD. My close friend has two of them (older models) and loves them. Yes they're expensive to maintain, but he loves them just the same. Thanks for the information. Much appreciated.
Thanks.. another silly question. I know diesels have a great deal of torque which is why they make excellent hill climbers. I also know their engines are known for great longevity. I just don't know why diesel trucks are so slow going up hills. Is it just that they're are so heavy they have limitations? I thought that it was the inherent nature of the diesels. Forgive my ignorance. I never considered a diesel, but after reading some of these forums, I am considering it. I'd like something that require little maintenance and is reliable. Not asking for too much. I am quite intrigued by the mileage these puppies get!
> Diesel is a good viable alternative to hybrids and will become even more competitive as the fuel gets cleaner and emission systems evolve.
Too little, too late.
The research money will most likely be spent on making a diesel-hybrid. Engine-Only propulsion simply doesn't make any sense with the growing acceptance of an electric motor joining in and sometimes being the exclusive source of propulsion.
> Is diesel easier on the environment? It takes less to propel a given car a given distance. So less fossil fuel is used and less GHG is put out. To me the beauty of a diesel engine is the ability to use renewable biodiesel, in any mix you want.
Wow! That is 2 great examples of feeding people only certain information, rather than providing the complete picture.
GHG are not the only type of emission. In fact, that (CO2) isn't even poisonous to us. The other type of emission is, that's smog (NOx, CO, HC, PM)... which was a rather significant exclusion. Had it been mentioned, the easy identification terms of "SULEV" or "PZEV" would have been included. But they weren't.
The other example is that biodiesel reference. Pretending that ethanol doesn't exist is an obvious omission. It does, and it is equally easy on the environment. Corn, Sugar Beets, Sugar Cane, and Switch Grass (the stuff that grows naturally on the sides of highways here) can all be fermented to create ethanol.
And some of us have been using a 10% blend in their hybrid for years now. In fact, all of the owners in Minnesota have... since that is the only type of gas available there. And in 7 years, it will change to a 20% blend... which most already existing vehicles can use (though they haven't been certified yet). The technology for using an 85% blend is already available in certain vehicles too.
People cannot make decisions on their own if they aren't provided with all the facts.
These links are from the British version of our EPA. They cover all or most components of tailpipe emissions.
The first link is for the Prius, the second for a MB E320 with a 3.0L diesel (with PM filter) and the third is for a VW Golf 5 door. The MB diesel gets dinged for NOx, and the VW for NOx and PM. The Prius gets dinged for CO and HC. The last one is a Corolla with 6 speed manual and 1.8L.
Perhaps you should get a bit more grounded, I stated the hp and the torque. So if there is anybody claiming to defy the laws of hp, it is YOU, not me. You're using me or more specifically diesel cars as a scape goat. No I am not trying to go fast, just a constant 80-85 up a long hill. It is funny those very same V8's ride the roller coaster (on the down hill) and hit like 90-95 and poop out on the long upgrade. I keep the same speed up hill or down hill. So it is you that is getting perjorative, and on the wrong population! Those V8's are gassers if you haven't surmised by now.
I don't know where all that came from - I'm not trying to use anything as a scapegoat for anything.
I'm just saying that Jettas, be they TDI or not, are not going to beat a strong V8 engine up a long hill if the V8 is TRYING to go faster.....That's all I was saying......not scapegoating anything....
The EPA for the 2003 Jetta TDI is 42/49 mpg. My lifetime range (69,000 miles) has been 44-62 mpg. For sure there are ways to drive the TDI, just as their are ways to drive the Prius/HCL. I for one am very glad I do not have to drive like the gasser hybrid drivers to get "better" mileage. (the fuel miser's mentality)
Nothing pejorative meant, but watching paint dry is an exciting adrenaline pumping participatory sport, compared to playing the fuel miser.
While I do not condone it, I can see why people eat, drink, watch TV, run 1,000 WATT sound systems, shave, put on make up, take off makeup, change clothes, beat their wives, beat their husbands, beat their kids and dogs, call folks on their cell phones, order merchandize over cell phone internent (complete with MC/Visa AM credit card transactions), need 14 cup holders AND the like. I wish they would just drive, but the laws favor the other alternatives.
I checked the fuel economy government site. I saw that the mileage is lowered for 2006 to 36/41 which is quite respectable. I would imagine they may have boosted the performance which accounts for the small variance. They did not have any specs for the Passat. Do you know if the heat output and time to produce heat is the same as a conventional gas operated car?
> My lifetime range (69,000 miles) has been 44-62 mpg.
Lifetime has always and will always be sited as an exact value, not a range. So... what is it?
And for that matter, why didn't you state what type of transmission it is?
> I for one am very glad I do not have to drive like the gasser hybrid drivers to get "better" mileage.
What type of misconception are you trying to spread? I drive my hybrid with the flow of traffic, just like everyone else. The result has been a LIFETIME value of 49.1 MPG, using E10 for fuel.
Comments
Camry-Hybrid will be revealed then. That will make the push to get people here to embrace diesel significantly harder. It's the very reason I have been grilling them recently, wanting to find out if they have anything new to say. They obviously don't. Status quo won't get people to switch from gas to diesel.
JOHN
At least for now?? No sedans on the horizon as far as I can tell.
Tokyo-based Honda may put diesel engines in light trucks in North America, where it sells about 49 percent of its vehicles, Fukui said.
Nissan Motor Co. last month said it may put diesel engines in U.S. pickup trucks and sport-utility vehicles to cut emissions.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000080&sid=a6IS6mjXjf5w&refer=asia
How would that be any different than Toyota bringing enough Prii to stabilize the market? I for one would applaud any company bringing in more diesel cars. Say BMW or Honda or Nissan. As long as the CARB states block the sale of the better choice in fuel, I will buy them and drive them and sell them at a profit in those states.
Along that line, CARB did do extensive tests comparing buses using CNG & ULSD. The ULSD powered buses with particulate filters came out as cleaner overall than the CNG.
Every diesel car introduced in the last 3 years has far outsold the manufacturers expectations. You see the Europeans think the Americans are in the dark ages, incapable of making sound choices on anything including cars. I hope they are starting to see we are not all ignorant of the superior choice of diesel over gas.
When the new PD TDI's are available in NA with clean fuel, plus maybe a few other manufacturers as well, there's no real need to market them.
People can look at stat sheets, reliability and longevity records available from Europe, the inherent efficiency advantage of diesels and come to their own conclusions.
When you compare cost-per-mile of an Accord iCDTi to a Prius or a Camry Hybrid over a 10-year period, I'm willing to bet the Accord will be 20% lower.
It's no contest.
They've since turned the reliablity issue around. It's still not perfect, but they've made great improvements since 2001.
You read the entire article, didn't you.
The point of the article was there were other small diesels in Europe that were better than the Yaris.
So what?
Trust Toyota to improve it.
And BTW, if the Yaris diesel was sold in America in its current form, people would still buy it over the VW TDIs.
FOR operating costs, there have been several posts on this interest site that clearly delineate the "operating" costs per mile. The TDI operating costs are cheaper per mile than the Prius for example.
Upshot for me to "solve one section of my transportation problems" I got both a TDI and a Honda Civic, even after serious consideration of the Prius/HCL. If I had more of a social statement to make or needed to exude more GREEN snottiness, or even if it would make clients throw money and orders toward me because I was driving a Prius, (you know, drink beer and the girls/guys will fall all over you scenario), for sure I would have gotten the Prius/HCL. I did not have these requirements.
Lastly, I bought the above combination due to the fact that in the TDI landscape there is really only one player VW. So if ALL the oems bring corresponding diesel models, I truly think we will much more rapidly increase the PVF % probably to 45% and beyond just as in Euro.
Very good observation. As can be seen in the record of complaints, the problems have diminished remarkably. Maybe everyone should check their car of choice and see if they have improved as much as the Jetta. Sales are also a good indicator of improved reliability. The Jettas have sold 15% more cars to date this year than last. Toyota has gained 2% with the Camry & Corolla. Honda has lost ground with the Accord & Civic.
Jetta Complaints
That is the very definition of STATUS QUO.
Diesel supporters simply aren't doing anything new to help make that data more accessible. Hybrid supporters are.
JOHN
Granted, it is just a snapshot for two years.
Give us time. You started out with a lot of high powered Hollywood hoopla. Toyota made a great move by unveiling the Prius to a lot of Hollywood dignitaries. It has taken time for the REAL environmentalists in the entertainment business to show up with a plan for biodiesel. A practical alternative to fossil fuel.
Also remember the same people in Hollywood that praise the hybrids supported a man for President that feels that the poor should not be allowed to drive a car. His solution was to make gas so expensive only the rich would be able to drive.
How many Prius have been sold in the EU? Will they ever challenge the diesel in the rest of the world, Japan excluded.
So there! Somebody finally said it.
No one around here was WAITING to say it....
Sounds like you've had enough of political correctness also. Good luck with the GTI and welcome home. Thanks!!
I think maybe he was referring to the constant unsubstantiated drivel concerning the TDI emissions.
Hybrid owners argument: diesel is stinky -> diesel is expensive -> diesel (by which they only mean Volkswagen) is unreliable -> diesel is polluting -> start over at diesel is stinky
As each argument gets refuted, hybrid owner's move to the next one. Then, once they reach the last point, they'll start over again.
Diesel owners argument: hybrids are much more expensive than similar standard models -> hybrids batteries will eventually die -> hybrid repairs are expensive -> hybrid gas mileage isn't all that good in comparision
To which the hybrid owners don't really refute any of this arguments, they tend to simply deflect to a perceived diesel fault. Which then gets rebutted.
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It's interesting jumping into a thread after 90~ pages have already been posted. You get to read all the previous articles in all at once. And the above really sums up the two sides on the issue.
Masochistic on the hybrid side, eh?
Actually, outside this board, on a practical level they just suck it up and pay more. And to be honest, I have nothing against them doing that! The issue for me: they advocate that EVERYBODY ELSE should be mandated to pay more!! (buy what they buy) For me, on this thread the real frustration is hybrid information about longevity etc is mostly hot air.
So let me state my FANTASY (the beer as nirvana)
1. $13,000 Prius
2. tax credits of up to 10k
3 tax write offs up to 100k
4. 75 mpg
5. cheaper batteries
6. batteries replaced under 300k miles
7. choice of diesel or gasser hybrid
8. higher than what I paid resale value
the reality (in the beer nivana scenario):
1. if I drive I will probably drive DUI,
2. increased liklihood of a drug cause accident and or fatality
3. in less than 20 min I will have to go to the little girls/boys room
4 if I am not careful I will meet a friend named (UP) Chuck.
The real future is in electric cars powered by electricial transmission. No batteries needed.
Put a transmission satellite into orbit, beam a microwave-power beam up to the satellite, who then retransmits it to all the cars with a receiving antenna.
The car then converts the microwave transmission into electrical power for the motor.
It's just like a cell phone set up, only used to power your car.
That's the future.
:P
Im off to work for two weeks, so Merry Christmas and Happy New Year everyone, and thanks for making this an interesting and informative place to visit.
And only 2 complaints from the 2004 year.
Nice!
I vividly remember about ten years ago in St. Louis seeing a car that was smoking so badly that it literally obscured an entire freeway overpass. I was behind this car stopped at a light and I could only see about 1/4 of the way across the overpass because of the smoke from this car. It was a real traffic hazard and did not smell very good either. Where are the police to ticket vehicles like this? I guess that there just isn't much money in it!
The real future is in electric cars powered by electricial transmission. No batteries needed.
Put a transmission satellite into orbit, beam a microwave-power beam up to the satellite, who then retransmits it to all the cars with a receiving antenna.
The car then converts the microwave transmission into electrical power for the motor.
It's just like a cell phone set up, only used to power your car.
That's the future.
What about hydrogen powered fuel cells?
Hydrogen in, water out. No other pollutants, no CO2.
Clean clean clean!
Clean clean clean!
Only holdup is getting the hydrogen out of the water. It now takes more energy to get the hydrogen out of the water than if you just used that energy to propel the car. Most of the hydrogen in use today is generated from Natural Gas. No free lunch or zero emissions with anything on the drawing board currently. I forgot a solar collector the size of Kansas could produce hydrogen.
I think hydrogen fuel cells are just a means to drain money from our taxes into corporate pockets.
What about hydrogen powered fuel cells?
Hydrogen in, water out. No other pollutants, no CO2.
Clean clean clean! "
Actually there are HUGE obstacles!!!
Commercial viability is estimated at 30 plus years.
That whole market sector is in danger of going the way of GM and CALPINE: slippery slide down slope. Funny how the environmental types don't even buy support (the stocks) of the stuff they advocate.
90 pages! That's only 6 weeks back. Try over 5 years, as I have done (and documented in my blogs). You get a very, very, very different picture with that timeframe.
One of the most obvious & significant observations is how diesel supporters do all they can to avoid acknowledging the EPA ratings... saying the technology is "much cleaner" now, rather than actually using the same category identifiers that the gas, ethanol, and natural-gas vehicles do.
gagrice says he needs time. After over 5 years of hybrid vs. diesel debates, how much more time could possibly be needed? The purpose of repeating the same discussions over and over and over again is to flush out the weaknesses... of which have been well-documented & promoted by the hybrid supporters to attract consumers to the rapidly growing hybrid market. What do the diesel supporters have?
JOHN
John, let me try to put a few holes in your hot air balloon. Do we have any other criteria to measure pollution of vehicles other than the EPA? If the one rating given to the current crop of diesels is that bad. Maybe we should rid our streets of the thousands of Toyotas that were sold over the last 10 years that are rated a "ONE" or lower.
That said you know as well as anyone the EPA reformatted their whole 0-10 chart about a year ago. At that time the 2004 VW TDIs were rated as high as a "six". I have no opinion on why they did that only an observation. For my own case. I bought a Passat TDI to have a comfortable superior handling car that got decent mileage. My car has had ULSD in it since the first tank I filled. What would my car rate on the EPA scale? Good question. I went to a smog check station to spend the money to have it tested. I wanted all those fancy figures they put on that sheet when you give them 50 bucks. They had no way to test a diesel under the CARB system. That is great for a diesel owner he saves money on smog checks.
I have asked the few diesel haters on this thread if they have any legitimate documentation that shows where a current 2005 Passat TDI PD would rate using only ULSD. So far nothing but slander & personal attacks on those that would own a diesel. Along with attacks on the manufacturers that import them. Nothing legitimate or factual.
So yes more time is needed to get the test procedures in place and the testing done. Until then all the opinions expressed are of little value. Those that are behind the diesel push in this country are not funded like the hybrid companies, primarily Toyota and to a much lessor extent Ford and Honda. It is mostly the biodiesel industry that are truly interested in eliminating fossil fuel.
Now as gogogodzilla so aptly pointed out. All the negatives with the hybrids are answered with negatives about diesels. Here goes for the umpteeth time.
When can we expect the premium on HSD to be $200 as it was on my VW TDI. In the EU there is little or no premium for a diesel engine. Toyota said we will cut the hybrid cost 50% and raised the price another $600 to $1000 for 2006 or that is the rumor. You can bet if they cut the cost of production it will never be seen in the MSRP.
When will the auto makers warrant the BIG battery for the life of the car? That would eliminate the biggest negative hanging around the hybrid neck.
When will the Prius catalytic convertor & all other parts price drop to that of a Camry non hybrid?
When will Toyota bring enough hybrids to quench the thirst for them? I can look back and find where Toyota said 120k Prii for 2005. They did not make that, unless there are 20k sitting on dealer lots.
First welcome to the forum. Those are good questions. I have not been able to determine how diesel cars are tested by the EPA. I think it is one of those government held secrets. I do know that the Test equipment that is required for testing cars in CA is not able to test a diesel, hence they block them from being sold in CA. trucks over a certain weight with diesel engines are exempt from testing also. Is diesel easier on the environment? It takes less to propel a given car a given distance. So less fossil fuel is used and less GHG is put out. To me the beauty of a diesel engine is the ability to use renewable biodiesel, in any mix you want. The most common being B20 which is 20% bio to 80% fossil diesel. Biodiesel is GHG neutral, that makes it ideal for meeting the Kyoto treaty parameters.
The recent energy bill has tax credits for hybrids as well as diesel cars, based on fuel savings over the cars they replaced. So far the figures are all speculation. We will not know for sure until the IRS puts out the 2006 tax code late next year.
I think the Avalon is a fine choice, about as trouble free as the best car Toyota ever built the Cressida.
Diesels are catching up and will be just as green in the next few years. I cannot say what the next few years will be but I feel it will be before the end of the decade.
Emissions control for gassers evolved too. We are so accustom to seeing it as a standard item on gassers that we do not give it a second thought, but the cost of adding this equipment came out of our pockets and still comes out of our pockets. The expense that you, John, speak of will be imposed on diesel buyers. I have no doubt about that. I have not seen any numbers on that cost. But you too are continuing to pay for the gasser emissions systems and all the research that went into them and continues to go into them.
Diesel is a good viable alternative to hybrids and will become even more competitive as the fuel gets cleaner and emission systems evolve.
I would agree!! This is most easy to see by asking do you think the gasser hybrid would even meet the diesel standards if it was still burning leaded regular!!? I think even they know the answer. This is probably one of the reasons for perpetual denial. I have posted this a number of times but in the Church of Perpetual Denial, it is perpetually DENIED.!?
On a Jetta TDI on the road, I routinely blow by even V8's on very long uphill grades. The torque is good on the Jetta, MUCH better on the PASSAT TDI!! The fuel mileage at 70 mph on a Jetta TDI (which is 90 hp and 155 # ft of torque) would easily be between 52-55 mpg, as I routinely get 50 mpg (at 80-85 mph on a long uphill grade 0-4200 ft). At Rocky Mountain altitudes on a 600 or so mile trip from Durango CO to Las Vegas, NV, the fuel mileage was a touch past 48 mpg. If I had been going 70 mph I surmise it would be more like 52/54.
In so far as comparison with the Toyota Avalon, I think it really depends what you want/need/budget etc. Toyota indicates the demographic for the Avalon is late 40's to 60 ish. For example, I would get the Avalon in a heartbeat. It is a great overall car !! But I tend to be more goal oriented/specific in my buying behavior. So some of those considerations, for example led me to get the VW Jetta TDI. As a foil, one of the stable mates is a Corvette Z06.
So if you care to define a bit more, I'd be happy to problem solve with you.
If you are "blowing by V8s" it's because you are trying to go fast and they aren't. Diesel torque does not defy the laws of horsepower.
I would put it up against anything in it's class using a gas engine. Steep grades are where diesels really shine. Mileage on a flat highway at 70 is easy 40 MPG in the 2005 and newer TDI PD Passat. I have a tendency to drift up closer to 80 on the highways. So my highway mileage is more like 37 MPG. Around town short 2-3 mile trips about 26 MPG. I now have 6500 miles still not broken in and my over all mileage is right at 28 MPG. Mostly 2-3 mile errands and a bit longer on the weekends.
Your best bet is to drive any of the cars you are considering.
Too little, too late.
The research money will most likely be spent on making a diesel-hybrid. Engine-Only propulsion simply doesn't make any sense with the growing acceptance of an electric motor joining in and sometimes being the exclusive source of propulsion.
JOHN
Wow! That is 2 great examples of feeding people only certain information, rather than providing the complete picture.
GHG are not the only type of emission. In fact, that (CO2) isn't even poisonous to us. The other type of emission is, that's smog (NOx, CO, HC, PM)... which was a rather significant exclusion. Had it been mentioned, the easy identification terms of "SULEV" or "PZEV" would have been included. But they weren't.
The other example is that biodiesel reference. Pretending that ethanol doesn't exist is an obvious omission. It does, and it is equally easy on the environment. Corn, Sugar Beets, Sugar Cane, and Switch Grass (the stuff that grows naturally on the sides of highways here) can all be fermented to create ethanol.
And some of us have been using a 10% blend in their hybrid for years now. In fact, all of the owners in Minnesota have... since that is the only type of gas available there. And in 7 years, it will change to a 20% blend... which most already existing vehicles can use (though they haven't been certified yet). The technology for using an 85% blend is already available in certain vehicles too.
People cannot make decisions on their own if they aren't provided with all the facts.
JOHN
link title
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These links are from the British version of our EPA. They cover all or most components of tailpipe emissions.
The first link is for the Prius, the second for a MB E320 with a 3.0L diesel (with PM filter) and the third is for a VW Golf 5 door. The MB diesel gets dinged for NOx, and the VW for NOx and PM. The Prius gets dinged for CO and HC. The last one is a Corolla with 6 speed manual and 1.8L.
I'm just saying that Jettas, be they TDI or not, are not going to beat a strong V8 engine up a long hill if the V8 is TRYING to go faster.....That's all I was saying......not scapegoating anything....
Nothing pejorative meant, but watching paint dry is an exciting adrenaline pumping participatory sport, compared to playing the fuel miser.
While I do not condone it, I can see why people eat, drink, watch TV, run 1,000 WATT sound systems, shave, put on make up, take off makeup, change clothes, beat their wives, beat their husbands, beat their kids and dogs, call folks on their cell phones, order merchandize over cell phone internent (complete with MC/Visa AM credit card transactions), need 14 cup holders AND the like. I wish they would just drive, but the laws favor the other alternatives.
Lifetime has always and will always be sited as an exact value, not a range. So... what is it?
And for that matter, why didn't you state what type of transmission it is?
> I for one am very glad I do not have to drive like the gasser hybrid drivers to get "better" mileage.
What type of misconception are you trying to spread? I drive my hybrid with the flow of traffic, just like everyone else. The result has been a LIFETIME value of 49.1 MPG, using E10 for fuel.
JOHN