Very funny Mopar. Show me your stuff if you think you got it.
I can say with 100% certainty that diesel exhaust is more harmful to human health than gasoline exhaust.
Anyone willing to spend 30 minutes on Google can prove that to themselves. I'm not going to continue this childish game. Some people cannot accept being wrong, and I feel for them.
I am quite sure that the Ford Focus qualifies as PZEV but the mileage it gets is nothing spectacular. All the manufacturers have to do is make the fuel system more secure so vapors don't escape (in layman terms of course). Cost is probably a big reason why there aren't too many.
Just read an interesting article in Pop Mech. I am not sure if there is a link as I am a subscriber. Article has to do with Hybrids and whether they are worth the premium. The Civic had marginal gains over the conventional version. The highlander hybrid did much better than the conventional version. Payback even taking the tax credit is a long time. They did not include the prius in this test.
Regarding the argument about diesel and gas being hazardous to your health, well the answer is obvious. They both are. It is sorta saying, which would you rather live near, Love Canal or Three Mile Island. Take your pick.
Taking concept cars to a new level — one that combines a diesel engine, electric motor and solar panels — Ford unveiled its Reflex sportscar this week at the North American Auto Show in Detroit.
Gasoline-electric hybrids are now mainstream vehicles, but no carmaker has yet to roll out a diesel hybrid. And while Ford didn't make that commitment either, it showed a willingness to explore, touting the Reflex as an all-wheel-drive sportscar that can get 65 miles per gallon.
Diesel cars dominate in Europe, and U.S. carmakers are starting to eye the market given technology improvements that have eliminated smoke and the loud rattling sound of earlier diesels. In addition, cleaner diesel fuel will be a requirement in the United States by next year and biodiesel, made from organic matter, is finding a following.
If the host feels this is off topic, please let me know.
So why the term hybrid on this thread has narrowly been defined as what is included in the Civic and Toyota Prius etc. Why would you think the environmentalists and auto oems are ignoring (energy options or energy arrays: solar (powered)paneled car roofs? It would seem like if one is in rush hr in a Boston summer this would be energy which could be harnessed and used passively. Also in line with that would be a flex fuel ( I dont know what to call it) where one can run an alternative fuel like 100% (from sugar beet) ethanol. Mixed with unleaded regular. solar panels to augment say those stubborn and expensive hybrid batts. So if one chose a diesel the flexibility would even be more, used fryer oil, garbage dump waste stream, animal byproducts, farm crops: soybeans, etc etc, refinement from cleaner natural gas, biodiesel mixes blends, etc etc.
There is a Canadian company installing solar panels on Prius roofs. Part one of the problem: it costs about $3,500. Part two of the problem: it captures very little energy.
So if battery type hybirds have such terrible commercial applications why are they not sinking more R/D monies into it? Or why are we even using hybrid batteries anyway? Funny how that comes from a hybrid advocate?
..."There is a Canadian company installing solar panels on Prius roofs. Part one of the problem: it costs about $3,500. Part two of the problem: it captures very little energy."...
Hybrids and whether they are worth the premium. The Civic had marginal gains over the conventional version. The highlander hybrid did much better than the conventional version. Payback even taking the tax credit is a long time. They did not include the prius in this test.
This is a false comparison in most cases. Most actual buyers dont get a hybrid in order to save money. It's a nice side benefit but it's way down the list of reasons to buy one. There is rarely an economic reason to buy a Hybrid vehicle, but at the moment it is the right thing to do for certain people, me for one.
Others who want to encourage new technology or others who want to drive the one of the cleanest vehicles on the planet or those who like the idea of being in the lead buy hybrids for their own reasons. But economically justified.. nope, only for a few megadrivers.
One press outlet or another does this comparo every month or so and comes to the same conclusion as all the previous ones. For the budget conscious it is not the right vehicle at the moment.
I can say with 100% certainty that diesel exhaust is more harmful to human health than gasoline exhaust.
The brown smog hanging over Phoenix is not from 2% of the vehicles that are diesel. EPA says it is caused by GAS & diesel vehicles. That makes gas vehicles the leading cause of pollution. It is not going to get better with a few thousand hybrids that Toyota & Honda dribble out to the public at ridiculous prices.
Brown Smog Over Phoenix, Arizona
For the first time since October 2003, air pollution has gotten so bad in the Phoenix area that the Arizona Department of Environmental Quality has issued high-pollution advisaries for two forms of particulate pollution.
The Valley today and Thursday can expect health-affecting levels of PM-10, consisting of larger particulates, and PM-2.5, the smaller particulates that have a particularly nasty effect on people with respiratory ailments.
The larger particulates consist primarily of dust and soot, while the finer particles are made primarily of emission materials from gas- and diesel-burning vehicles.
Your comments have nothing to do with the issue we were discussing, which was the difference between the health effects of diesel exhaust versus the health effects of gasoline exhaust.
I never said gas cars do not pollute - of course they do. MY contention, and it's a true one, is that diesel exhaust is far more harmful when compared one to one.
As far as the pollution in Phoenix, here is more info for you:
The landscape industry could be hit especially hard if leaf blowers are silenced. Resorts and other tourist destinations that lure visitors with roaring outdoor fires may have to go dark on "no-burn days" or switch to cleaner-burning fuels. The construction industry says it's already squeezed by dust rules and can't give more without economic pain. Truckers are hoping that federal changes to diesel fuel and engines will exempt them from further restrictions. For example, the Indian reservations surrounding the Valley are exempt from dust rules.
Leaf Blowers from thousands of landscape companies Roaring outdoor fires at dozens of resorts Dust from construction (which is rampant) Diesel truckers and off-road diesels associated with construction Indian reservations who are exempt from clean-air rules
"It's going to affect farming, industry, including the traditional smokestack industry," Kard said.
Here is a very detailed article which explains the causes of the pollution problem pretty clearly, and gas engine cars are a very small, almost unmentioned, part of the problem:
Details? LOL! That article reads as an op-ed, not science. The omission of gasoline pollution from the article does not justify conclusion of non-pollution from gasoline exhaust. The major problem is NOT diesel exhaust, it is dust! Particulate Matter The primary sources of particulate pollution in the Phoenix area are windblown dust from construction sites, agricultural fields, unpaved parking lots and roads, disturbed vacant lots, and paved road dust.
Motor vehicles are the single largest source of air pollution in the Valley.
This is all an immense waste of time. Who even cares about this when making a purchase decision, the six people on this topic that constantly disagree! Make that 5, it is not a factor when I make a purchase decision.
I mostly post for the benefit of the person who comes here completely or partially uneducated about a subject and is looking for some solid information from people who live these subjects daily.
This has strayed far from my point, which always was the same, and I'm not repeating it again.
Neither hybrids nor diesels are "duds" in my opinion, but one is a better choice for most drivers than the other.
"Neither hybrids nor diesels are "duds" in my opinion, but one is a better choice for most drivers than the other. "
I would agree with that. For a quick readers digest take, if one is a salesman in downtown Boston and uses his car like an office and does the downtown Boston traffic a hybrid like Prius/Civic might be the ticket. If one does a lot of long distance travel, the ticket is a diesel.
In between? I think one can ask am I ok with doing long Distance with a hybrid when most of driving is city? Or do I tolerate diesel in the city since most of the time I do long distance.
So for me I could easily have a diesel side by side with a Prius.
Your post seems to be the most logical conclusion. Regardless of the bickering I've seen here, the few posters here are not going to change the world. Most car and truck buyers are really not as informed as you may think. I would say 98% of the people buying a vehicle do not care what type of pollution comes out of the tailpipe. After reading numerous articles, it is definitely apparent that diesel emissions have more particulate matter than gas burning engines. In Phoenix and Denver you always see that weird cloud of dust hovering overhead. I would imagine it would be the same if all the cars there were burning diesel. I have been to Europe many times and the air there is as crisp as where I live and they have lots more diesels there. If we really want to clean our air, we are going to have to make sacrifices. How about riding a bike, mass transit, etc. In the meantime, this forum is not going to change the mindset of the American sheeple.
THIS IS NOT SOUND BITE ABLE but seems to me to be the crux issue!! so....
In major metro areas: such as Boston, they have sensors in various parts of the city to sample and report on air quality. These are of course state of the art measuring devices. They gather raw data at various points so they can come to longitudinal air quality reports and a more scientific conclusion etc. So for example the real question from a back end view (their view) is how many hybrids would it take to make first a measureable difference and then would it pass regressive correlation tests.
The new Jetta TDI is improved since 2004, Prius still does not live up to it's billing.
But the real-world mileage of pleasant-driving Jetta was better than that of Prius, and diesel fuel typically was 16% to 20% cheaper than unleaded gas.
The outcome: the Accord Diesel (using petroleum diesel) offers the lowest fuel consumption and the lowest CO2 emissions, even surpassing the Accord Hybrid.
I'm extremely happy to see that both Nissan and Honda believe in diesel and will be introducing diesel engines in passenger vehicles in the USA. Japan's third-ranked auto maker by volume also said it would offer diesel cars in the United States, following European brands such as Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen AG into the nascent segment.Reuters
Honda will figure out NEXT YEAR if hybrids are cost effective. "We'll figure out over the next year whether hybrids are a cost-effective proposal for big-volume production," Chief Executive Takeo Fukui told Reuters recently. "By no means have we reached that conclusion yet."
Jetta is not in the same class as Prius if you are a driving enthusiast.
Yes, Prius does have much lower emissions than Jetta TDI and lower emissions than any Jetta.
Jetta is clearly superior to Prius in interior quality of materials, comfort, and most importantly driving enjoyment.
A Toaster would be the appropriate competitor for the Prius for driving fun as the Prius is as fun as making toast and has about as much character as a toaster.
quote moparbad-"Jetta is not in the same class as Prius if you are a driving enthusiast."-end quote
Hopefully people OUTGROW the need to drive around aimlessly once they get older. I know I have.
For me, driving in my hybrid is about getting from point A to point B with my MPG as high as I can make it go, using my skills as a fuel efficient driver.
On my recent vacation to Texas, I had a 55.25 MPG run between Phoenix and Van Horn, TX, driving at the average speed of 69 miles per hour. That's driving excitement for me.
PS I'd bet my left lung that 100% of Prius owners in the USA would say their Prius is more exciting to them than a toaster...... :shades:
The gap between gas and diesel is starting to close with the rising cost of gasoline. The gap is down to about 20 cents between #2 and unleaded regular at some stations locally. As the heating season starts to wane, diesel will probably come down in price. I have seen this seasonal spike in diesel prices for years.
As for your run, I am not impressed. In 1983, my Isuzu got 53.1 MPG at 63mph from Laurel MD to Norwalk CT. A plain and simple 51 hp 1.8L four cylinder diesel. It was pretty quiet for its time and very smooth at idle. Made very little smoke,even back then. The car weighed 3200 lb, about 290 lb more than the Prius.
In Europe, most diesels are pretty clean and in some respects their emissions are cleaner than what comes out of the back end of a Prius. No unburned HC and practically no CO.
When ULSD comes into being, no more smell, far less soot, and an overall reduction in emissions, sans batteries or electric motors. NOx will soon be a thing of the past too.
I do no think that the breed called "diesel" will die. I know some of you would like to see it go away.
quote winter2-"As for your run, I am not impressed. In 1983, my Isuzu got 53.1 MPG at 63mph from Laurel MD to Norwalk CT. A plain and simple 51 hp 1.8L four cylinder diesel. It was pretty quiet for its time and very smooth at idle. Made very little smoke,even back then. The car weighed 3200 lb,"-end quote
Well, you SHOULD be impressed. This is a 2004 Honda Civic bybrid, with a packed full trunk, a packed full passenger floorboard front and rear, 290 pounds of human cargo, using a 93 HP gasoline engine, averaging 69 MPH for a 8.1 hour drive with only one stop. This is not a two door econobox Isuzu diesel we are talking about, but one of the safest and most solidly built small cars in the USA.
As far as the price of diesel, it's not seasonal this time around. For the last year at least, diesel has been higher than unleaded. I will post data to back that up. Diesel has been more expensive for a long while now.
Here it is now. Look at all the charts and info on this website and you can track back how long diesel has been higher:
It starts with a 1.4-liter Duratorq diesel engine connected to a six-speed electronic shift transmission. It gets help from two electric motors, one up front and another driving the rear wheels on its own. Both are powered by new lithium-ion batteries developed by Ford. Solar panels on the roof keep the batteries charged up so there's always plenty of power available when a boost of power is needed. Ford says it will deliver 65 mpg no matter how hard you drive it.
How's that last sentence hit you, all you "driving enthusiasts?" :shades:
On my recent vacation to Texas, I had a 55.25 MPG run between Phoenix and Van Horn, TX, driving at the average speed of 69 miles per hour. That's driving excitement for me. :surprise:
Well, Edmunds did obtain 38 mpg in a 2003 HCH. For about 800 miles of combined city and highway driving in Southern California, frequently with the air conditioning on, we managed 38 mpg in our CVT-equipped test vehicle.
So on the face of it, why would you be against it? Of course if it sold for 100,000 the market would be more rarified? So given a 1.9T TDI I can project a bit what a 1.4 TDI would do? However things like this would not hit the market if anti diesel folks were successful in having it BANNED!! ??? This one also answers my rhetorical question about roof mounted solar batteries!! KILLER! for this era of technology for the battery reserves solves a few problems.
"On my recent vacation to Texas, I had a 55.25 MPG run between Phoenix and Van Horn, TX, driving at the average speed of 69 miles per hour. That's driving excitement for me. "
Having done a similar long distance trek, I did get a 52 mph at higher speeds that your quote, with AC full blast. I am swagging at 69 mph, app the same for the TDI. So to me in terms of MPG what is not to like?
I have seen your graphs. Note that at the end gas is climbing while diesel is staying steady or falling slightly. Part of this is still seasonal, but I forgot that some of the refineries that make diesel are still offline or are making gasoline instead.
As to 69 mpg, I doubt it. I could believe 49 or 50 but not 69. The average on the EPA site for all 2004 Civic Hybrids is somewhere in the forties. One person got in the mid-50's, but most are getting in the low 50's. That is a sample of six people. No one has exceeded 54 mpg except one. That is looking at Civic hybrids from 2003 forward. I find your 69 mpg highly dubious.
quote moparbad-"And normal drivers obtain 30-40 mpg."-end quote
My driving was not abnormal at all. How can chugging along a highway at posted speeds, with two kids aboard and a loaded car, driving 8.1 hours at an average speed of 69 MPH be considered "not normal?"
Sorry. Did not read what you wrote correctly. However, still not impressed. Nearly achieved that with a far less complex automobile long before hybrids were on the road. Plenty of diesels can do what you do.
As to the old Isuzu, it was built like a small tank. Got rear ended once in that thing. Put the bumper in a press to straighten it. Cost me $15 to fix. Got hit by a Nissan Sentra. He had $1500 damage. Definitely not your basic econobox.
The Jetta does have a great deal of driving enjoyment. Having owned a 2003 I can attest to that. I can also tell you that my Jetta could also drive itself to the dealer's repair facility. It was not a TDI, hopefully those are more reliable.
quote winter2-"Plenty of diesels can do what you do."-endquote
Maybe in Europe or elsewhere, but no diesels available in the USA which are comparable to the 5-passenger Honda Civic Hybrid can drive as cleanly and as frugally at 69 mph.
None as cleanly (emissions-wise) for sure, and I do not know of a 5-passenger USA diesel sedan which can hit 55.25 MPG at speeds averaging 69 miles per hour. Which one can?
I can understand what you are feeling. At 69k I too am hoping it will "dodge the bullets" on the way to 500,000 and knock on wood 1 M miles. VW's DO have a higher % of cars that are problematic. However mine has so far it has been flawless.
Well, that's just the opinion of that person. If Ford gets enough positive response from it and thinks they can sell it, it might go from concept to showroom.
The new Jetta TDI is improved since 2004, Prius still does not live up to it's billing.
But the real-world mileage of pleasant-driving Jetta was better than that of Prius, and diesel fuel typically was 16% to 20% cheaper than unleaded gas.
One 'test' does not a scientific analysis make. To be valid this would have to be done several hundred times .. and.. the vehicles would have to be switched in the routes randomly.. Prius to DC and Jetta to Detroit. Is there a change in elevation? In the US prevailing weather is normally west to east aiding one and hindering the other.
The final statement is just not correct in todays world Jan 2006. Diesel is 8-10% more expensive.
The fuel capacity uncertainty was rectified back in 2004.
This is a reporters piece as stated not a scientific experiment. Interesting but not conclusive.
Yes it's an interesting article and one time experiment. But it should be done several hundred or even a thousand times or more to be statistically relevant. At best it's anecdotal, but interesting.
I just got my Prius 6 weeks ago and find that getting 47-48 mpg at 60-63 mph is normal. I'd like to do that roundtrip in parallel with the Jetta the same as they did in the Vancouver video then compare those results.
The price of diesel is market driven. The original conclusion is not correct today. It may be again next month or year. Who knows?
But I believe the combination of both is the best for of all of us in the future once clean diesel is available.
The original conclusion about taxation is correct. The governments even says that! FED STATE COUNTY LOCALS all have their fingers in this one. I am glad you agree that the prices are (somewhat) market driven. With diesel products going up % wise, I would look to diesel prices falling.
actually i have a different view on it. I think that with China and India booming in relation to the rest of the world that they will begin to draw more and more fuel resources that way instead of to the West. I think we will have to 'outbid' them for the next 50-100 years as they grow up. This will drive up our acquisition prices... by a lot. $5/Gal Gas or Diesel from dino-sources is a certainty in the foreseeable future IMO.
Anything that uses less dino-fuel is a good thing.
I am ok that you have a different view, but 5 dollar gas or diesel ?
(except by gov caveat like in Europe, current prices of gas/diesel is like 8 US. this is with whlse 1.73 per gal, 2.5 corner store) and 62 or so per barrel)
To get 5 dollar gas, you are talking a min of 2x plus current price of a barrel of oil (low 60s currently, 125 per barrel to support 5 dollar gas) . China will choke to death economically with two x plus the current prices of a barrel of oil. etc. An interesting contrast is one source of bio diesel recovery per gal (as low as app) .42 cents!! So if I ask the obvious question, would you rather use $1.73 whsle gal of unleaded regular or bio diesel at .42 cents and have a 37% energy advantage to boot? Would you like to guess my answer?
In case you haven't been reading, Indonesia had large scale riots when the government was forced to cut the oil subsidy to its citizens. Also the recent Tsunami's have not helped this region at all. The avg Chinese family of 4 makes 400-600 US per year. The math does not leave much room.
So for example, if it does go the way you say, it really makes viable coal as a fuel, diesel fuel refined from coal is even cleaner than unleaded regular. We have conservative estimates put coal at 300 plus years. Also diesel can be grown domestically in a myraid of procedures/conditions etc, unlike unleaded regular which is currently being bought from folks/governments who hate our guts and literally hate the ground we walk. So why environmental types steadfastly cling to the idea of 90-100% unleaded regular is really WAY beyond my grasp.
Further it will make COMPELLING, widescale building of NUCLEAR POWER Plants.
“Anything that uses less dino-fuel is a good thing.”
Auto makers need to take a bigger lead in providing cars with much higher mileage. More hybrids and develop clean high mileage diesels.
The general public needs to loose the “my car is bigger than yours” attitude and take on a little more social responsibility to reduce consumption and pollution.
Wow! Slowly stepping down and backing away from the soap box.
Comments
But trust me, everyone else: Gasoline has been proven by HUNDREDS of scientific studies to be FAR more harmful to humans than diesel. Deal with it.
I can say with 100% certainty that diesel exhaust is more harmful to human health than gasoline exhaust.
Anyone willing to spend 30 minutes on Google can prove that to themselves. I'm not going to continue this childish game. Some people cannot accept being wrong, and I feel for them.
Just read an interesting article in Pop Mech. I am not sure if there is a link as I am a subscriber. Article has to do with Hybrids and whether they are worth the premium. The Civic had marginal gains over the conventional version. The highlander hybrid did much better than the conventional version. Payback even taking the tax credit is a long time. They did not include the prius in this test.
Regarding the argument about diesel and gas being hazardous to your health, well the answer is obvious. They both are. It is sorta saying, which would you rather live near, Love Canal or Three Mile Island. Take your pick.
http://www.afscme.org/health/faq-dies.htm
Taking concept cars to a new level — one that combines a diesel engine, electric motor and solar panels — Ford unveiled its Reflex sportscar this week at the North American Auto Show in Detroit.
Gasoline-electric hybrids are now mainstream vehicles, but no carmaker has yet to roll out a diesel hybrid. And while Ford didn't make that commitment either, it showed a willingness to explore, touting the Reflex as an all-wheel-drive sportscar that can get 65 miles per gallon.
Diesel cars dominate in Europe, and U.S. carmakers are starting to eye the market given technology improvements that have eliminated smoke and the loud rattling sound of earlier diesels. In addition, cleaner diesel fuel will be a requirement in the United States by next year and biodiesel, made from organic matter, is finding a following.
So why the term hybrid on this thread has narrowly been defined as what is included in the Civic and Toyota Prius etc. Why would you think the environmentalists and auto oems are ignoring (energy options or energy arrays: solar (powered)paneled car roofs? It would seem like if one is in rush hr in a Boston summer this would be energy which could be harnessed and used passively. Also in line with that would be a flex fuel ( I dont know what to call it) where one can run an alternative fuel like 100% (from sugar beet) ethanol. Mixed with unleaded regular. solar panels to augment say those stubborn and expensive hybrid batts. So if one chose a diesel the flexibility would even be more, used fryer oil, garbage dump waste stream, animal byproducts, farm crops: soybeans, etc etc, refinement from cleaner natural gas, biodiesel mixes blends, etc etc.
And "who exactly" is supposed to be sinking more R&D into "what?"
If I may quote: you?
This is a false comparison in most cases. Most actual buyers dont get a hybrid in order to save money. It's a nice side benefit but it's way down the list of reasons to buy one. There is rarely an economic reason to buy a Hybrid vehicle, but at the moment it is the right thing to do for certain people, me for one.
Others who want to encourage new technology or others who want to drive the one of the cleanest vehicles on the planet or those who like the idea of being in the lead buy hybrids for their own reasons. But economically justified.. nope, only for a few megadrivers.
One press outlet or another does this comparo every month or so and comes to the same conclusion as all the previous ones. For the budget conscious it is not the right vehicle at the moment.
The TCH might change that some later this year.
I would definitely consider the new Camry. Sounds awesome!
The brown smog hanging over Phoenix is not from 2% of the vehicles that are diesel. EPA says it is caused by GAS & diesel vehicles. That makes gas vehicles the leading cause of pollution. It is not going to get better with a few thousand hybrids that Toyota & Honda dribble out to the public at ridiculous prices.
Brown Smog Over Phoenix, Arizona
For the first time since October 2003, air pollution has gotten so bad in the Phoenix area that the Arizona Department of Environmental Quality has issued high-pollution advisaries for two forms of particulate pollution.
The Valley today and Thursday can expect health-affecting levels of PM-10, consisting of larger particulates, and PM-2.5, the smaller particulates that have a particularly nasty effect on people with respiratory ailments.
The larger particulates consist primarily of dust and soot, while the finer particles are made primarily of emission materials from gas- and diesel-burning vehicles.
I never said gas cars do not pollute - of course they do. MY contention, and it's a true one, is that diesel exhaust is far more harmful when compared one to one.
As far as the pollution in Phoenix, here is more info for you:
The landscape industry could be hit especially hard if leaf blowers are silenced. Resorts and other tourist destinations that lure visitors with roaring outdoor fires may have to go dark on "no-burn days" or switch to cleaner-burning fuels. The construction industry says it's already squeezed by dust rules and can't give more without economic pain. Truckers are hoping that federal changes to diesel fuel and engines will exempt them from further restrictions. For example, the Indian reservations surrounding the Valley are exempt from dust rules.
Leaf Blowers from thousands of landscape companies
Roaring outdoor fires at dozens of resorts
Dust from construction (which is rampant)
Diesel truckers and off-road diesels associated with construction
Indian reservations who are exempt from clean-air rules
"It's going to affect farming, industry, including the traditional smokestack industry," Kard said.
Here is a very detailed article which explains the causes of the pollution problem pretty clearly, and gas engine cars are a very small, almost unmentioned, part of the problem:
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0111badair11.html
So in summary, gas engines certainly pollute, but the causes of the Phoenix air problems are not from that source.
The omission of gasoline pollution from the article does not justify conclusion of non-pollution from gasoline exhaust.
The major problem is NOT diesel exhaust, it is dust!
Particulate Matter
The primary sources of particulate pollution in the Phoenix area are windblown dust from construction sites, agricultural fields, unpaved parking lots and roads, disturbed vacant lots, and paved road dust.
cleanER burning gasoline
Motor vehicles are the single largest source of air pollution in the Valley.
This is all an immense waste of time. Who even cares about this when making a purchase decision, the six people on this topic that constantly disagree! Make that 5, it is not a factor when I make a purchase decision.
This has strayed far from my point, which always was the same, and I'm not repeating it again.
Neither hybrids nor diesels are "duds" in my opinion, but one is a better choice for most drivers than the other.
I would agree with that. For a quick readers digest take, if one is a salesman in downtown Boston and uses his car like an office and does the downtown Boston traffic a hybrid like Prius/Civic might be the ticket. If one does a lot of long distance travel, the ticket is a diesel.
In between? I think one can ask am I ok with doing long Distance with a hybrid when most of driving is city? Or do I tolerate diesel in the city since most of the time I do long distance.
So for me I could easily have a diesel side by side with a Prius.
In major metro areas: such as Boston, they have sensors in various parts of the city to sample and report on air quality. These are of course state of the art measuring devices. They gather raw data at various points so they can come to longitudinal air quality reports and a more scientific conclusion etc. So for example the real question from a back end view (their view) is how many hybrids would it take to make first a measureable difference and then would it pass regressive correlation tests.
USA Today Jetta vs. Prius
The new Jetta TDI is improved since 2004, Prius still does not live up to it's billing.
But the real-world mileage of pleasant-driving Jetta was better than that of Prius, and diesel fuel typically was 16% to 20% cheaper than unleaded gas.
Accord Comparison
I'm extremely happy to see that both Nissan and Honda believe in diesel and will be introducing diesel engines in passenger vehicles in the USA.
Japan's third-ranked auto maker by volume also said it would offer diesel cars in the United States, following European brands such as Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen AG into the nascent segment. Reuters
Honda will figure out NEXT YEAR if hybrids are cost effective. "We'll figure out over the next year whether hybrids are a cost-effective proposal for big-volume production," Chief Executive Takeo Fukui told Reuters recently. "By no means have we reached that conclusion yet."
Prius "HBO Documented" unofficial world record for a 5 passenger car:
109 MPG in one full tank.
Jetta? Best tank ever? Anyone know? 68 MPG? 75 MPG?
Jetta: EPA Air Pollution score of 1 (out of possible 10 best)
5.6 tons of GHG per year
annual fuel costs $963
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm
Prius: EPA Air Pollution score of 9.5 in CARB states (out of possible 10 best)
3.5 tons of GHG per year
annual fuel costs $612
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm
Jetta is NOT a competitor in the same class as Prius in size, equipment, pollution, MPG, fit and finish, or company reputation.
It's like putting Rocky in the ring against Bart Simpson ! :shades:
Yes, Prius does have much lower emissions than Jetta TDI and lower emissions than any Jetta.
Jetta is clearly superior to Prius in interior quality of materials, comfort, and most importantly driving enjoyment.
A Toaster would be the appropriate competitor for the Prius for driving fun as the Prius is as fun as making toast and has about as much character as a toaster.
Hopefully people OUTGROW the need to drive around aimlessly once they get older. I know I have.
For me, driving in my hybrid is about getting from point A to point B with my MPG as high as I can make it go, using my skills as a fuel efficient driver.
On my recent vacation to Texas, I had a 55.25 MPG run between Phoenix and Van Horn, TX, driving at the average speed of 69 miles per hour. That's driving excitement for me.
PS
I'd bet my left lung that 100% of Prius owners in the USA would say their Prius is more exciting to them than a toaster...... :shades:
As for your run, I am not impressed. In 1983, my Isuzu got 53.1 MPG at 63mph from Laurel MD to Norwalk CT. A plain and simple 51 hp 1.8L four cylinder diesel. It was pretty quiet for its time and very smooth at idle. Made very little smoke,even back then. The car weighed 3200 lb, about 290 lb more than the Prius.
In Europe, most diesels are pretty clean and in some respects their emissions are cleaner than what comes out of the back end of a Prius. No unburned HC and practically no CO.
When ULSD comes into being, no more smell, far less soot, and an overall reduction in emissions, sans batteries or electric motors. NOx will soon be a thing of the past too.
I do no think that the breed called "diesel" will die. I know some of you would like to see it go away.
Well, you SHOULD be impressed. This is a 2004 Honda Civic bybrid, with a packed full trunk, a packed full passenger floorboard front and rear, 290 pounds of human cargo, using a 93 HP gasoline engine, averaging 69 MPH for a 8.1 hour drive with only one stop. This is not a two door econobox Isuzu diesel we are talking about, but one of the safest and most solidly built small cars in the USA.
As far as the price of diesel, it's not seasonal this time around. For the last year at least, diesel has been higher than unleaded. I will post data to back that up. Diesel has been more expensive for a long while now.
Here it is now. Look at all the charts and info on this website and you can track back how long diesel has been higher:
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp
It starts with a 1.4-liter Duratorq diesel engine connected to a six-speed electronic shift transmission. It gets help from two electric motors, one up front and another driving the rear wheels on its own. Both are powered by new lithium-ion batteries developed by Ford. Solar panels on the roof keep the batteries charged up so there's always plenty of power available when a boost of power is needed. Ford says it will deliver 65 mpg no matter how hard you drive it.
How's that last sentence hit you, all you "driving enthusiasts?" :shades:
And normal drivers obtain 30-40 mpg. HCH 06 Test 36.3 mpg
Well, Edmunds did obtain 38 mpg in a 2003 HCH.
For about 800 miles of combined city and highway driving in Southern California, frequently with the air conditioning on, we managed 38 mpg in our CVT-equipped test vehicle.
Having done a similar long distance trek, I did get a 52 mph at higher speeds that your quote, with AC full blast. I am swagging at 69 mph, app the same for the TDI. So to me in terms of MPG what is not to like?
As to 69 mpg, I doubt it. I could believe 49 or 50 but not 69. The average on the EPA site for all 2004 Civic Hybrids is somewhere in the forties. One person got in the mid-50's, but most are getting in the low 50's. That is a sample of six people. No one has exceeded 54 mpg except one. That is looking at Civic hybrids from 2003 forward. I find your 69 mpg highly dubious.
My driving was not abnormal at all. How can chugging along a highway at posted speeds, with two kids aboard and a loaded car, driving 8.1 hours at an average speed of 69 MPH be considered "not normal?"
I think that's completely normal driving.
I never said 69 miles per gallon, I said 69 miles per hour. That was my average speed. My miles per gallon was 55.25
As to the old Isuzu, it was built like a small tank. Got rear ended once in that thing. Put the bumper in a press to straighten it. Cost me $15 to fix. Got hit by a Nissan Sentra. He had $1500 damage. Definitely not your basic econobox.
http://www.drivingtelevision.com/clips/312/02Comparison312.wmv
Maybe in Europe or elsewhere, but no diesels available in the USA which are comparable to the 5-passenger Honda Civic Hybrid can drive as cleanly and as frugally at 69 mph.
None as cleanly (emissions-wise) for sure, and I do not know of a 5-passenger USA diesel sedan which can hit 55.25 MPG at speeds averaging 69 miles per hour. Which one can?
VW TDI see prior posting.
That has happened before.....
But the real-world mileage of pleasant-driving Jetta was better than that of Prius, and diesel fuel typically was 16% to 20% cheaper than unleaded gas.
One 'test' does not a scientific analysis make. To be valid this would have to be done several hundred times .. and.. the vehicles would have to be switched in the routes randomly.. Prius to DC and Jetta to Detroit. Is there a change in elevation? In the US prevailing weather is normally west to east aiding one and hindering the other.
The final statement is just not correct in todays world Jan 2006. Diesel is 8-10% more expensive.
The fuel capacity uncertainty was rectified back in 2004.
This is a reporters piece as stated not a scientific experiment. Interesting but not conclusive.
Also the price of diesel is more dictated by increased taxes on diesel and 98-2% of the vehicle fleets being gasser/diesel respectively.
I just got my Prius 6 weeks ago and find that getting 47-48 mpg at 60-63 mph is normal. I'd like to do that roundtrip in parallel with the Jetta the same as they did in the Vancouver video then compare those results.
The price of diesel is market driven. The original conclusion is not correct today. It may be again next month or year. Who knows?
But I believe the combination of both is the best for of all of us in the future once clean diesel is available.
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp
Here is a state by state.
http://api-ec.api.org/filelibrary/MFT10103.pdf
Anything that uses less dino-fuel is a good thing.
(except by gov caveat like in Europe, current prices of gas/diesel is like 8 US. this is with whlse 1.73 per gal, 2.5 corner store) and 62 or so per barrel)
To get 5 dollar gas, you are talking a min of 2x plus current price of a barrel of oil (low 60s currently, 125 per barrel to support 5 dollar gas) . China will choke to death economically with two x plus the current prices of a barrel of oil. etc. An interesting contrast is one source of bio diesel recovery per gal (as low as app) .42 cents!! So if I ask the obvious question, would you rather use $1.73 whsle gal of unleaded regular or bio diesel at .42 cents and have a 37% energy advantage to boot? Would you like to guess my answer?
In case you haven't been reading, Indonesia had large scale riots when the government was forced to cut the oil subsidy to its citizens. Also the recent Tsunami's have not helped this region at all. The avg Chinese family of 4 makes 400-600 US per year. The math does not leave much room.
So for example, if it does go the way you say, it really makes viable coal as a fuel, diesel fuel refined from coal is even cleaner than unleaded regular. We have conservative estimates put coal at 300 plus years. Also diesel can be grown domestically in a myraid of procedures/conditions etc, unlike unleaded regular which is currently being bought from folks/governments who hate our guts and literally hate the ground we walk. So why environmental types steadfastly cling to the idea of 90-100% unleaded regular is really WAY beyond my grasp.
Further it will make COMPELLING, widescale building of NUCLEAR POWER Plants.
“Anything that uses less dino-fuel is a good thing.”
Auto makers need to take a bigger lead in providing cars with much higher mileage. More hybrids and develop clean high mileage diesels.
The general public needs to loose the “my car is bigger than yours” attitude and take on a little more social responsibility to reduce consumption and pollution.
Wow! Slowly stepping down and backing away from the soap box.