"If the big 3 suddenly flooded the market with cars that 100 mpg the oil companies would simply adjust prices to keep the bottom line the same. "
Actually the taxing agencies are SUPER sensitive to this.
So for example, in CA I read there is a current cap of 55,000 hybrid stickers for the single occupant commuter lanes. They want to be able to claim they are sensitvie and supportive of hybrid technology, but in fact they want to avoid the "Lexus a fication" of the commuter lanes.
There is talk of having to raise the level and % of taxation, for in effect CA is not getting the taxes per mile driven ( per gal) of unleaded regular they are used to getting.
So an easy non sound bite able example is unleaded regular at 2.29 and 32 mpg and 45 mpg vs 2.69 at 50 mpg = .07156/.05089 /.0538 cents per mile.
The way our legal system works we will all be driving cars with different propulsion systems. Toyota should just buy the company, that would solve everything.
First before I ask, please forgive my lack of knowledge. Yesterday I remember reading somewhere that people who have diesels in colder climates have what they referred to as a "gelling problem". I think it was mainly in cars with a bio-diesel blend. Is there a way to combat this from happening with additives they should put in the fuel at the pump? Wouldn't that solve the problem? Here is a solution I thought of. Why not have the fuel lines insulated and provide a blanket of warmth to prevent the problem from happening? What about jets at high altitudes? How do they prevent the fuel (similar to diesel) from gelling? Again, I apologize for what some may think is a silly question.
Thanks for that link. BTW, I was looking at prices for used Jetta TDIs and I came across a 2004 on autotrader for 11,800. All the other ones were on the average of $21,000 or so. I don't think I am permitted to post a link, but if you have a chance, please look it up. Tell me if I am missing something, because it seems like a great deal. If it is, I want to purchase it. Thanks for your assistance.
After several months of the local VW lots being almost void of TDI’s, the drought seems to be over for the moment. I looked on the web site of the local Tacoma, WA VW dealer and he list, as of 1/13/06, 27 Jetta pkg 1 TDI’s and 19 Beetle pkg 1 TDI’s. No Golf TDI’s. I also received an email flyer from the same dealer for $99.99 over invoice sale on all VW’s EXCEPT TDI models. Figures.
The question is not so silly. Diesel fuel has a tendency to "gel" at certain temperatures. The fuel itself is not gelling but a wax, which is a normal component of diesel fuel, begins to solidify at certain temperatures. This problem is taken care of by adding an additive, #1 diesel, or kerosene to lower the temperature where the wax forms.
Biodiesel has a similar problem but it occurs at a higher temperature. Again, this can be resolved by adding an additive or blending with treated diesel fuel.
This is my second diesel. I had one in the early 80's and never had a problem with "gelling", even at-20F.
Way back in the late 70's to early 80's, VW had set up a system/device for their diesels that would shut off the engine after a set time. When the driver stepped on the gas, the engine would start immediately and off you would go.
As to the amount of power needed to turn over a diesel, yes you do need more. My old Isuzu diesel had a seven or eight horsepower starter. The starter on my CRD is also pretty large.
If a diesel-electric hybrid comes along, I hope it is not a design that parallels that of the Prius. A design similar to what is found in locomotives makes more sense to me.
I don't think this feature should even be engineered into the vehicle.
You may be correct. According to my latest AAA magazine, they have an article on hybrid cars. They make the claim that NO gas is saved with the engine shut down for less than 2 minutes. It takes more gas to start a car than is burned idling less than 2 minutes. It may be slightly less polluting but does not help fuel consumption. I would agree. I do not see any real fuel savings with the hybrid GMC from the engine shut off while stopped. I am going to make a further test now that I have found out how to disable the shutdown feature.
I also agree with using a diesel in a series hybrid configuration for optimum mileage & performance.
..."Hybrid for all its technical complexity, (designed to be seamless and hassle free as possible, from a marketing point of view) still needs a heavy dose of driver management and input. To get the best MPG (not even the best JUST EPA estimates) for example one has to understand the relationship between the hybrid portion and gasser portion and behavior mod accordingly.
The truth is the same on the diesel side, but you REALLY don't have to get as technical; I.E., you already have a 37% advantage over like gassers.
The savings really comes from that parameter where the hybrid portion is providing the majority of the energy. So if that parameter happens to be the sweet spot of your driving, then it is tailor made for you. If you know that and of course drive so you are in the sweet spot then that is the choice you make.
To me this is most of the reason for some Prius owners' being VERY unhappy. As hybrids become more mainstream, this % can only grow larger."...
Since this was a post in response to a post, I did not post diesels sweet spot. It occurred to me,later upon re read, I should post diesel's (VW TDI's anyway) sweet spot. It is 2000 rpms at 55 mph (5th gear manual)(low to upper 60's mpg.)
> They make the claim that NO gas is saved with the engine shut down for less than 2 minutes. It takes more gas to start a car than is burned idling less than 2 minutes.
For a NON-hybrid, that is indeed true.
But as usual, this is yet another example of a fact that is absolutely false for a hybrid.
When starting a traditional vehicle, all you have is a wimpy battery & motor. They only provide the ability to crank the engine up to a RPM of about 100. At that point, far more gas than normal is injected with the hope that enough will ignite from the spark to boost the speed of the engine up to idle.
With a "full" hybrid like Prius, you have a battery & motor so powerful that it can actually propel the entire car. So rather than the spray & pray method of starting, the engine is easily spun all the way up to idle speed using electricity alone. Then that spinning (between 800 & 1000 RPM) is maintained until oil pressure is established. Finally at that point, just the normal amount of gas is injected... since the engine is already spinning at the needed speed. So the spark event is rather trivial, as is the amount of gas needed.
In other words, even just shutting off the engine for a few seconds saves gas. That claim above has no relevance to a "full" hybrid.
> I do not see any real fuel savings with the hybrid GMC from the engine shut off while stopped.
That comment explains a lot. You have absolutely insisted that the pickup from GMC is a hybrid, despite the fact that no propulsion whatsoever is ever provided from the electric motor. There isn't any highway MPG or smog-related emission improvement either.
Now it sounds like there is yet another disqualifying feature... the way the engine is started.
Look closer at how the startup actually happens. It sure sounds like the GM method is identical to the Ford prototype from back in 2000. There was no RPM increase. All it did was make the responsiveness so fast that there was no disruption to normal operation that the driver would notice. In fact, they even went as far as bragging that it was faster than the Classic Prius. And now we know why it was never rolled out. It doesn't actually save any gas if you don't have a long enough stop.
With a "full" hybrid like Prius, you have a battery & motor so powerful that it can actually propel the entire car. So rather than the spray & pray method of starting, the engine is easily spun all the way up to idle speed using electricity alone.
Is it true that the oil pump is off while the engine is off, so your only protection during that spin up to 1000 rpm is the residue of whatever happened to be left over from when the pump was running?
Is it also true that the Honda's have electric oil pumps to avoid just this mess?
That comment explains a lot. You have absolutely insisted that the pickup from GMC is a hybrid,
I agree with most of your analysis on the different types of hybrids. I disagree that the HSD is the best form of hybrid. I still believe a series hybrid with electric motors or hydraulic motors to propel the car would be a better, more simple solution. You can try to convince everyone that the Prius and HSD is a simple solution. You have not come close to convincing me.
As far as the GMC hybrid. It does produce about a ton less CO2 than the non hybrid version. And it will tow as much as the non hybrid version. Time will tell if Toyota can build a fullsize hybrid PU that is as capable as their non hybrid PU. It will need to have a towing capacity of 7900 lb to match the 1/2 ton Sierra Hybrid. Plus no smog check & Farmer's insurance gives me a 5% discount for hybrid.
The one way they can improve on the Sierra 1/2 ton PU IMO is to build a smaller version of the DMAX diesel that gets 30+ MPG on the highway. It is an uphill battle fighting ignorance on the part of environmental lobbyist and the lawmakers they own.
The one way they can improve on the Sierra 1/2 ton PU IMO is to build a smaller version of the DMAX diesel that gets 30+ MPG on the highway. It is an uphill battle fighting ignorance on the part of environmental lobbyist and the lawmakers they own.
I agree 100% with all the above. Hybrids certainly have a place in passenger cars and maybe SUV’s, but when it comes to pick-up’s I believe the only practical solution is a diesel.
Still dreaming of a Ranger with a diesel in the US.
A heavy-duty, diesel-engine Tundra won't be available when sales of the new model begin in 2007, said Jim Lentz, U.S. general manager of the Toyota brand, in an interview in Detroit. The company is studying offering both heavy-duty and hybrid gasoline-electric Tundras. Lentz said the automaker isn't sure how big the market for such models will be.
``You have to take a look at the cost of all these engines, how many you are going to be selling, to make sure it really makes financial sense before you jump into that market,'' he said.
No Japanese automaker offers a heavy-duty diesel pickup to compete with GM's Silverado and Sierra trucks or Ford's F-250 and F-350, among the most profitable vehicles for the two U.S. automakers. Nissan has also said it wants to offer a heavy-duty diesel Titan, without setting a sale date or unit target.
A hybrid work truck presents engineering challenges not present in standard cars, said Dave Hermance, executive engineer for Toyota Technical Center U.S.A.
On the down side, many truck owners require their vehicles to tow or haul heavy loads over long distances. Hybrid battery power is nearly useless in that aspect. As a result, a pickup cannot scrimp on engine displacement without sacrificing towing performance, Hermance said. That hurts fuel economy, the main benefit of a hybrid.
Takimoto noted that long-distance towing stresses the durability of a hybrid system.
oops we discovered a solution to the hybrid question
I think there are many solutions. Are they practical? Some of the largest earth movers are true full hybrids. It is how much weight do we want in the vehicle? The Toyota HSD system is somewhat lacking for anything larger than a car like the Prius. To me the RH & HH are a big waste. Not even capable of running up a sandy wash without burning up the tiny electric motors. I am sure Toyota engineers have already discovered the limitations for work trucks. I really do not think they were looking for a sales winner when they built the Prius. Just a PR trick to cover their assets. With all the hype and popularity they have expanded on the system. I think the Camry hybrid will be less successful than the Prius. Unless they sell it at a loss. Not likely with Toyota. One loss leader per decade is enough.
How big do they make hybrids?
The Crawler makes more sense as an engineering accomplishment when we digest the magnitude of the task. It was designed to carry a twelve-million-pound rocket and launching derrick. It's 131 feet long and 114 feet wide. It weighs six million pounds. The structure rides on four double tracks, each pair the size of a Greyhound bus. Inside its huge deck are diesel engines with a total output of almost eight thousand horsepower. They drive generators that supply electric motors for the tracks.
The Toyota HSD system is somewhat lacking for anything larger than a car like the Prius. To me the RH & HH are a big waste.
Agreed on the Prius.. the HSD seemes best suited for an auto. Agreed also on the HH IMO its the wrong combo for the Toyota budget... but it's perfect for a Lexus driver. The Lexus driver normally is looking for power and performance and that's where this belongs.
However the TCH is likely going to be a big winner. Why? If they price it right then it will just be another 'V6' Camry ( ~192 hp ) but with FE in the mid-high 30's combined.
You can choose amongst 4c Camry's from $20K to $25K and 'V6' Camry's from $26 to $30K. That's no change from the present.
You can choose amongst 4c Camry's from $20K to $25K and 'V6' Camry's from $26 to $30K
I think Toyota has to hit pretty low to convince mainstream Camry buyers that the Hybrid is a good choice. It just does not have the uniqueness of the Prius. The TMV in San Diego for the 2006 Camry XLE 4 is under $21k after the $750 rebate. The V6 XLE is under $24K with the rebate. It will be much easier for a salesman to convince a prospective Camry Hybrid customer to drive off in a non hybrid Camry, when he does not have the hybrid available.
> I still believe a series hybrid with electric motors or hydraulic motors to propel the car would be a better, more simple solution.
But it's not actually a solution. Being the most simple is not the goal.
The problem to solve is how to increase MPG and reduce smog-related emissions.
A series hybrid is neither as efficient nor as clean as a "full" hybrid, which is why that as a possible option for vehicles was abandoned decades ago. And don't even try to bring up the topic of trains, since their purpose is entirely different and their price is drastically more. And comments about CO2 are nothing but a distraction from SMOG-related emissions, especially since they are addressed by the topic of MPG.
Being the most simple is not the goal. The problem to solve is how to increase MPG and reduce smog-related emissions.
It is fairly easy to increase the mileage just switch to diesel in place of gasoline. I agree the emissions is a bit more of a problem. We disagree on who is responsible for clean emissions. Just as the EPA removed the lead from gas 30 years ago they dropped the ball on sulfur in gas & diesel.
You seem to think all the extra complexity and expense to build a hybrid is justified by a very subtle improvement in the emissions. You will have a hard time convincing anyone that understands auto mechanics that a hybrid is easy to maintain as a non hybrid. It has been proven that a diesel only vehicle in any class is equal to a hybrid for mileage. The slight difference in emissions is only a few years behind gas vehicles. A 2001 Camry V6 was rated as a one. I think a lot of them still roam the highways. It is not the huge issue you have tried to make it. Reality is that most cars built over the last 15 years are very clean if the fuel is of a high quality. That includes low sulfur diesel that is readily available in CA and some other states.
You could do a lot more for the environment by going after the ethanol plants that put out more pollution than all the diesel cars in the country combined.
"I hate selling cars at a loss," Nissan Motor and Renault CEO Carlos Ghosn told reporters, saying hybrids were not a profitable proposition.
Nissan will bring out its first hybrid with the Altima sedan later this year, but says it was only because average fleet fuel economy regulations in California require it.
Ghosn repeated that Nissan, Japan's second-biggest automaker, will bring a diesel passenger vehicles to the United States.
Even Honda Motor, which introduced the first hybrid car to the United States with the two-seater Insight in 1999, is not ready to endorse hybrids as the future mainstream for green cars just yet.
"We'll figure out over the next year whether hybrids are a cost-effective proposal for big-volume production," Chief Executive Takeo Fukui said recently. "By no means have we reached that conclusion yet."
Mr. Ghosn needs to just get smart enough engineers (like Toyota has done) to be able to make the cars at a PROFIT, like Toyota has done. He's just jealous.
Why would you think hybrids had "Glitter" in the first place?
( Isn't that the Mariah Carey movie which bombed and got her recodring contract voided? )
What hybrids DO have is good value for your gas dollar. I've driven 5,478 miles in the last 5 months and have paid about 5 cents per mile in gas money.
It will be interesting to see how well received the Camry is. I think it will be quite successful, but not sell in the same numbers as the Prius. Maybe you wouldn't buy one, but that is your opinion. Many people will overlook the price difference and want the gadgets or glory of hybrid ownership. Something you can't have in a GMC pickup.
Well these two aren't really representative. Nissan as you know is just purchasing the system and adding it to an Altima just to have one for show. That's always expensive and not a good longterm strategy.
Honda OTOH is in a quandry. Their IMA system as you know is just a more developed one than your GM Sierra. It works very very well on the Civic but it doesnt belong linked to a V6 Accord in the same way that the V6 HH is wrong for the Toyota buyer. It's too pricey for what is mainly a power boost. The typical HonYota buyer doesnt care a whit for this added power. This buyer is looking for economy and reliability. Now put the IMA in an Acura like the HSD is in the Lexus' and they might have a winner - but not in the Accord.
But Honda can't put the IMA in a 4c Accord either. They know that their 'booster system' doesnt deliver enough power as compared to the HSD system. If they put it in a 4c Accord it will suffer badly in comparison to the new TCH. Honda can't afford it's flagship vehicle comparing badly to anyone. So they've painted themselves into a corner for the time being.
The best way for both Nissan and Honda to get out? Go in a completely different direction .. diesels, and leave the hybrids to Toyota. It's smart. Essentially Toyota has too big a lead on either one in the auto and light truck hybrid market so both should just exit gracefully, except for the HCH.
Public perception is vitally critical here in the US for Honda. While it's the 3rd ranked vehicle in Japan, in a lot of circles in this market it's often considered the premium vehicle for the mass market with style, performance, reliability and greenness. For that reason Honda needs to appear to be constantly on the 'cutting edge'.
The Insight was the first hybrid in the US ( it beat the Gen1 Prius by several months ) and it is still ranked the most efficient. But it was really just a concept vehicle rushed over to beat the Gen1 Prius to market and reinforce Honda's image here. But now it's gone from the scene.
The IMA system similarly was put in the Accord 18 months ahead of the HSD Camry reinforcing Honda's image of innovation and getting to market first. But it's in the wrong vehicle as stated above. Soon it too will quietly go away.
But Honda did get to the market first here in the US.
Maybe you wouldn't buy one, but that is your opinion.
As cars go I like the Camry. The hybrid version would have to pencil out as economically viable to be a choice for me. I don't buy vehicles on emotion. Hybrids are more emotional than practical. I also want known reliability for 10-15 years. Current hybrids have less than 4 years on the road. The only exception is the very fine manual transmission Insight, which I consider the most practical of all hybrids.
Glitter? Hollywood is the only reason that the Prius is such a big hit. If it was the hybrid technology selling on it's own the HCH would be as big a seller as the Prius. The HCH does not look like a hybrid so it does not have the "Green" panache of the Prius. It is a so so seller. I predict the HCH will be selling below MSRP by June. Honda may not even continue the HAH. There is still no positive proof that Toyota is in the black on hybrids. I don't consider Toyota corporate spin as proof. The Prius has done what Toyota has wanted it to do. It makes them look green so they can build and sell more gas guzzlers in the USA.
The best way for both Nissan and Honda to get out? Go in a completely different direction .. diesels, and leave the hybrids to Toyota.
I agree with everything you posted. Playing catch up using your competitors system, is not a good plan. Putting the hybrid system in luxury cars will appeal to the wealthy environmentally sensitive types.
quote gagrice-"Glitter? Hollywood is the only reason that the Prius is such a big hit."-end quote
I thought I weaned you off that idiocy a few months ago. I guess I failed.
Allow me to try again. Here's why you are wrong about "Hollywood" selling the Prius.
1. You yourself have said and you know that the Hybrid buyer is more educated than the average person, and usually more wealthy. Correct? So from that we can assume most hybrid buyers do not subscribe to "PEOPLE WEEKLY" magazine. Correct? So, following that logic, someone who is shallow enough to buy a car because a celeb is seen in one is PROBABLY not the sharpest tack in the drawer, correct? Thus we can conclude that stupid people do not buy hybrids, and only a stupid person would buy a car SOLELY because Leo or Sandra bought one.
2. Virginia is second largest state in hybrid registrations. Is there a disproportionate number of Leo or Sandra fans in Virginia? Or was it the tax break and the HOV lane break? I think we know that answer.
4. Toyota has never used a celeb to push the Prius in a Toyota advertisement, anywhere. If Toyota thought celebs sold cars and celeb endorsements were a good marketing tool, don't you think they would use that to their advantage? Yes, you know they would.
Hollywood helped in the INTRODUCTION of the Prius - but since then, the car has sold on it's own merits.
Hybrid technology sold 212,000 vehicles in the USA in 2005. That was not because of Leo.
Maybe you should get a job in the industry since you know so much. The Prius is successful on its own merits. How can over 100,000 copies of a car be attributed to Hollywood? The automotive press made the Prius what it is today. The Honda Civic hybrid is another fine auto that probably will be discounted, but June? What crystal ball are you looking into? Toyota and Honda and all the rest of the car manufacturers sell what the public wants. It appears that America's appetite for gas guzzlers has not waned even with gas prices going up. If you even think for a moment that Toyota and Honda are faking their greenness (is that a word?), you are sadly mistaken.
1. You yourself have said and you know that the Hybrid buyer is more educated than the average person, and usually more wealthy. Correct?
Education nor wealth do NOT instill common sense. I agree that the HOV ignorance and tax incentives were responsible for many hybrid sales. So what is your point? That does not mean that hybrids are a practical solution to our gas guzzling ways or our pollution. They are price bloated by their complexity and I am sure as I am typing here the whole genre will come around to bite the early adopters in the butt. Many are already realizing how expensive it is to keep them past their extended warranties. That is NOT true for most of the non hybrid versions of these cars.
As a disclaimer: I have said many times that the Insight, Prius & HCH were good solutions for high mileage commuters, especially in urban traffic. I think the Luxo boats that are adding the hybrid name tag to gain a meager few miles to the gallon with a $5k to $10k premium are a joke. They prove the old addage "a fool and his money are soon parted".
* Sales of hybrid-engine cars in the U.S. will grow by 268 percent between 2005 and 2012, says a new report from J.D. Power and Associates. * Hybrid sales will be spread among a much larger number of vehicle models, as many as 52, the research firm predicts, up from the current 11.
Boy, look at all those hybrids that Hollywood will get to sell.
Boy, look at all those hybrids that Hollywood will get to sell
They better get to work. There are hybrids sitting on the lots offered at big discounts. Only the Prius & HCH are moving off the lots at MSRP and above. The HAH, HH & RH are being discounted $3k and more to get them off the lots. The Ford Escape is an unknown as they claim Toyota has squeezed them down to a few hybrid transmissions per year.
I think the only honest voice in the industry is the head of Nissan. He is only building the hybrid to satisfy CA politicians. Same reason that GM wasted 2 billion developing the EV-1.
I guess there are suckers born everyday. Who said that? When you consider that the Honda Civc Hybrid and Prius are mid 20's loaded, then you're not talking big money. I mean, they have nice warranties and ten years is pretty amazing. I wonder if GM is going to give those type of generous warranties on the upcoming VUE. Ya know.. the one with the 42 volt starter motor that they call a hybrid. I wonder what will happen when the warranty expires on a Chrysler 300 with cylinder deactivation. That will be mighty expensive to fix. How about a 7 speed auto transmission from Mercedes. I don't see how hybrids are any more complex that the vehicles coming from Germany and Japan for that matter. I'd rather spend < 30 grand and take my chances.
When I look at numbers like this, I can't help but think of one of the older Edmunds.com threads, "I hate SUV's, why don't you?"
In that thread basically the anti suv'ers bemoaned the coming of the Mongol hordes of killer SUV's and how they would multiply like FLIES and literally take over the world. Well with all the bru ha ha, seems the NHTSA data shows SUV's are 12% of the passenger vehicle fleet. This took app 30 years. or a per avg yearly growth rate of .36% (a bit more than 1/3 of ONE percent per year growth).
For example as good as ABS has been touted to be, the only time I use/have ever used it was to practice and to make sure the system works/ed. In addition since the system does not overcome the laws of physics one has to practice at and beyond the limits so one has at least a seat of the pants feel at limts and or beyond.
Bottom line is I have never used it in the real world. This is across more than 525k miles. What I do fear as things get older is the ABS going out on one or more of the vehicles with the associated price tag of 500-1500 dollars. Of course I would not have this concern if I didnt have ABS.
I really think you have to put it in some perspective. If a person is used to buying a 45-250k car, and up to ala lifestyles of the rich and famous, then buying a 27,000 Prius is FAR cheaper!!!! Plus it is a chic GREEN symbol? Of course it might be seen as "obscene" for a Hollywood type to buy a 250,000 whip and spend another 150,000 in upgrades (most cars in this range get mileage in the teens)which is not good press when you are trying to argue in favor of world peace and getting the masses to buy the concept of higher fuel mileage now is it? etc etc
Not sure how that came into the coversation. I was just replying. Heck, your profile says you own one. Either you have buyer's remorse or a hybrid sedan cut you off during rush hour.
I think to some degree gagrice is correct. I can’t say Hollywood is a big push for hybrids, but for a long time all the print media was talking about, and still is to a lesser degree, was hybrids. It seemed like every time I picked up a C&D mag there was another Hybrid getting a test drive. Local news papers seemed to have a lot of stories or reviews on Hybrids. Auto web sites like Edmunds, KBB, etc. seemed to always have something on Hybrids and very little if anything on diesels. Diesels get very little media attention and when they do it’s almost grudgingly used as filler. One gets the feeling the media will be severely punished for even mentioning “diesel” Since about the middle of December I have noticed a very slow increase in diesels coming into the spot light. I think with MB announced introduction of more diesels for the US this trend will only gain momentum.
You mention "pushing" but what is really happening is "news coverage of a news-worthy technology."
Most all the media stories seem to point out somewhere in the story that "you will never recoup the extra money you spend" and so they can't be declared as "pushing" the technology. They (the print media) were not trying to sell the hybrids, but to merely just get information to the public.
Show me one print or web media story which urges people to go out and buy a hybrid and never mentions any downsides. I have yet to see one anywhere in 19 months of owning my hybrid.
Actually with a diesel that is usually one of the first issues. With only a 600-1000 premium (vs much more for a hybrid) it usually gets down to the issue of needed say over 15,000 miles per year to break even (4/5 years) or holding it longer. So with a hybrid that metric is almost meaningless, i.e., you don't even have to use 5th grade math to know that you will not break even. Hollywood types probably don't care now do they?
Bottom line is I have never used it in the real world.
You have hit it on the head. All the complexity to gain so little does not seem logical IMO. I think we have only seen the tip of the repair bill iceberg on some of these hybrids and other highly complex systems. They feel obligated to change them every 3-4 years and that leaves the mechanics clueless on the repairs. Just change out that $1000 module and see if it works. Oh, try this maybe that is what is causing the problem. And the automaker is smiling all the way to the bank.
that only happens if cars BREAK. Most of the hybrids ( including the Prius, despite it's recall black eye ) to date have been EXTREMELY reliable.
Remember: There are as of January 2005 almost 750,000 hybrid vehicles on the road worldwide, including hybrid minivans in Japan and thousands of hybrid buses.
If they were breaking down in droves, we would know it. They just aren't.
Comments
And it would not "spell trouble" for owners of the HSD vehicles because at worst, Toyota would have to pay licensing fees to the other company.
Makes no sense though - why would Toyota ever have to "steal" anything related to design ideas?
My guess is that this ends up getting tossed.
Doubt it will be tossed, but royalty payment seems more likely. That might add to the cost of the design/car.
Actually the taxing agencies are SUPER sensitive to this.
So for example, in CA I read there is a current cap of 55,000 hybrid stickers for the single occupant commuter lanes. They want to be able to claim they are sensitvie and supportive of hybrid technology, but in fact they want to avoid the "Lexus a fication" of the commuter lanes.
There is talk of having to raise the level and % of taxation, for in effect CA is not getting the taxes per mile driven ( per gal) of unleaded regular they are used to getting.
So an easy non sound bite able example is unleaded regular at 2.29 and 32 mpg and 45 mpg vs 2.69 at 50 mpg = .07156/.05089 /.0538 cents per mile.
Jets? out of the bounds of the discussion.
http://www.powerservice.com/
The above link should address the questions? A lot of things you NEVER wanted to know about diesel additives?
Biodiesel has a similar problem but it occurs at a higher temperature. Again, this can be resolved by adding an additive or blending with treated diesel fuel.
This is my second diesel. I had one in the early 80's and never had a problem with "gelling", even at-20F.
As to the amount of power needed to turn over a diesel, yes you do need more. My old Isuzu diesel had a seven or eight horsepower starter. The starter on my CRD is also pretty large.
If a diesel-electric hybrid comes along, I hope it is not a design that parallels that of the Prius. A design similar to what is found in locomotives makes more sense to me.
You may be correct. According to my latest AAA magazine, they have an article on hybrid cars. They make the claim that NO gas is saved with the engine shut down for less than 2 minutes. It takes more gas to start a car than is burned idling less than 2 minutes. It may be slightly less polluting but does not help fuel consumption. I would agree. I do not see any real fuel savings with the hybrid GMC from the engine shut off while stopped. I am going to make a further test now that I have found out how to disable the shutdown feature.
I also agree with using a diesel in a series hybrid configuration for optimum mileage & performance.
The truth is the same on the diesel side, but you REALLY don't have to get as technical; I.E., you already have a 37% advantage over like gassers.
The savings really comes from that parameter where the hybrid portion is providing the majority of the energy. So if that parameter happens to be the sweet spot of your driving, then it is tailor made for you. If you know that and of course drive so you are in the sweet spot then that is the choice you make.
To me this is most of the reason for some Prius owners' being VERY unhappy. As hybrids become more mainstream, this % can only grow larger."...
Since this was a post in response to a post, I did not post diesels sweet spot. It occurred to me,later upon re read, I should post diesel's (VW TDI's anyway) sweet spot. It is 2000 rpms at 55 mph (5th gear manual)(low to upper 60's mpg.)
For a NON-hybrid, that is indeed true.
But as usual, this is yet another example of a fact that is absolutely false for a hybrid.
When starting a traditional vehicle, all you have is a wimpy battery & motor. They only provide the ability to crank the engine up to a RPM of about 100. At that point, far more gas than normal is injected with the hope that enough will ignite from the spark to boost the speed of the engine up to idle.
With a "full" hybrid like Prius, you have a battery & motor so powerful that it can actually propel the entire car. So rather than the spray & pray method of starting, the engine is easily spun all the way up to idle speed using electricity alone. Then that spinning (between 800 & 1000 RPM) is maintained until oil pressure is established. Finally at that point, just the normal amount of gas is injected... since the engine is already spinning at the needed speed. So the spark event is rather trivial, as is the amount of gas needed.
In other words, even just shutting off the engine for a few seconds saves gas. That claim above has no relevance to a "full" hybrid.
JOHN
That comment explains a lot. You have absolutely insisted that the pickup from GMC is a hybrid, despite the fact that no propulsion whatsoever is ever provided from the electric motor. There isn't any highway MPG or smog-related emission improvement either.
Now it sounds like there is yet another disqualifying feature... the way the engine is started.
Look closer at how the startup actually happens. It sure sounds like the GM method is identical to the Ford prototype from back in 2000. There was no RPM increase. All it did was make the responsiveness so fast that there was no disruption to normal operation that the driver would notice. In fact, they even went as far as bragging that it was faster than the Classic Prius. And now we know why it was never rolled out. It doesn't actually save any gas if you don't have a long enough stop.
JOHN
With a "full" hybrid like Prius, you have a battery & motor so powerful that it can actually propel the entire car. So rather than the spray & pray method of starting, the engine is easily spun all the way up to idle speed using electricity alone.
Is it true that the oil pump is off while the engine is off, so your only protection during that spin up to 1000 rpm is the residue of whatever happened to be left over from when the pump was running?
Is it also true that the Honda's have electric oil pumps to avoid just this mess?
I agree with most of your analysis on the different types of hybrids. I disagree that the HSD is the best form of hybrid. I still believe a series hybrid with electric motors or hydraulic motors to propel the car would be a better, more simple solution. You can try to convince everyone that the Prius and HSD is a simple solution. You have not come close to convincing me.
As far as the GMC hybrid. It does produce about a ton less CO2 than the non hybrid version. And it will tow as much as the non hybrid version. Time will tell if Toyota can build a fullsize hybrid PU that is as capable as their non hybrid PU. It will need to have a towing capacity of 7900 lb to match the 1/2 ton Sierra Hybrid. Plus no smog check & Farmer's insurance gives me a 5% discount for hybrid.
The one way they can improve on the Sierra 1/2 ton PU IMO is to build a smaller version of the DMAX diesel that gets 30+ MPG on the highway. It is an uphill battle fighting ignorance on the part of environmental lobbyist and the lawmakers they own.
I agree 100% with all the above.
Hybrids certainly have a place in passenger cars and maybe SUV’s, but when it comes to pick-up’s I believe the only practical solution is a diesel.
Still dreaming of a Ranger with a diesel in the US.
``You have to take a look at the cost of all these engines, how many you are going to be selling, to make sure it really makes financial sense before you jump into that market,'' he said.
No Japanese automaker offers a heavy-duty diesel pickup to compete with GM's Silverado and Sierra trucks or Ford's F-250 and F-350, among the most profitable vehicles for the two U.S. automakers. Nissan has also said it wants to offer a heavy-duty diesel Titan, without setting a sale date or unit target.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000101&sid=aBY29U2SUnzA&refer=japan
A hybrid work truck presents engineering challenges not present in standard cars, said Dave Hermance, executive engineer for Toyota Technical Center U.S.A.
On the down side, many truck owners require their vehicles to tow or haul heavy loads over long distances. Hybrid battery power is nearly useless in that aspect. As a result, a pickup cannot scrimp on engine displacement without sacrificing towing performance, Hermance said. That hurts fuel economy, the main benefit of a hybrid.
Takimoto noted that long-distance towing stresses the durability of a hybrid system.
search google for hybrid tundra
or..
It may be that GM's solution, maybe in conjunction with diesel is the model for the future. Whatever it is it will be good for us all.
I think there are many solutions. Are they practical? Some of the largest earth movers are true full hybrids. It is how much weight do we want in the vehicle? The Toyota HSD system is somewhat lacking for anything larger than a car like the Prius. To me the RH & HH are a big waste. Not even capable of running up a sandy wash without burning up the tiny electric motors. I am sure Toyota engineers have already discovered the limitations for work trucks. I really do not think they were looking for a sales winner when they built the Prius. Just a PR trick to cover their assets. With all the hype and popularity they have expanded on the system. I think the Camry hybrid will be less successful than the Prius. Unless they sell it at a loss. Not likely with Toyota. One loss leader per decade is enough.
How big do they make hybrids?
The Crawler makes more sense as an engineering accomplishment when we digest the magnitude of the task. It was designed to carry a twelve-million-pound rocket and launching derrick. It's 131 feet long and 114 feet wide. It weighs six million pounds. The structure rides on four double tracks, each pair the size of a Greyhound bus. Inside its huge deck are diesel engines with a total output of almost eight thousand horsepower. They drive generators that supply electric motors for the tracks.
BIG Hybrid
Agreed on the Prius.. the HSD seemes best suited for an auto. Agreed also on the HH IMO its the wrong combo for the Toyota budget... but it's perfect for a Lexus driver. The Lexus driver normally is looking for power and performance and that's where this belongs.
However the TCH is likely going to be a big winner. Why? If they price it right then it will just be another 'V6' Camry ( ~192 hp ) but with FE in the mid-high 30's combined.
You can choose amongst 4c Camry's from $20K to $25K and 'V6' Camry's from $26 to $30K. That's no change from the present.
I think Toyota has to hit pretty low to convince mainstream Camry buyers that the Hybrid is a good choice. It just does not have the uniqueness of the Prius. The TMV in San Diego for the 2006 Camry XLE 4 is under $21k after the $750 rebate. The V6 XLE is under $24K with the rebate. It will be much easier for a salesman to convince a prospective Camry Hybrid customer to drive off in a non hybrid Camry, when he does not have the hybrid available.
But it's not actually a solution. Being the most simple is not the goal.
The problem to solve is how to increase MPG and reduce smog-related emissions.
A series hybrid is neither as efficient nor as clean as a "full" hybrid, which is why that as a possible option for vehicles was abandoned decades ago. And don't even try to bring up the topic of trains, since their purpose is entirely different and their price is drastically more. And comments about CO2 are nothing but a distraction from SMOG-related emissions, especially since they are addressed by the topic of MPG.
JOHN
It is fairly easy to increase the mileage just switch to diesel in place of gasoline. I agree the emissions is a bit more of a problem. We disagree on who is responsible for clean emissions. Just as the EPA removed the lead from gas 30 years ago they dropped the ball on sulfur in gas & diesel.
You seem to think all the extra complexity and expense to build a hybrid is justified by a very subtle improvement in the emissions. You will have a hard time convincing anyone that understands auto mechanics that a hybrid is easy to maintain as a non hybrid. It has been proven that a diesel only vehicle in any class is equal to a hybrid for mileage. The slight difference in emissions is only a few years behind gas vehicles. A 2001 Camry V6 was rated as a one. I think a lot of them still roam the highways. It is not the huge issue you have tried to make it. Reality is that most cars built over the last 15 years are very clean if the fuel is of a high quality. That includes low sulfur diesel that is readily available in CA and some other states.
You could do a lot more for the environment by going after the ethanol plants that put out more pollution than all the diesel cars in the country combined.
Nissan will bring out its first hybrid with the Altima sedan later this year, but says it was only because average fleet fuel economy regulations in California require it.
Ghosn repeated that Nissan, Japan's second-biggest automaker, will bring a diesel passenger vehicles to the United States.
Even Honda Motor, which introduced the first hybrid car to the United States with the two-seater Insight in 1999, is not ready to endorse hybrids as the future mainstream for green cars just yet.
"We'll figure out over the next year whether hybrids are a cost-effective proposal for big-volume production," Chief Executive Takeo Fukui said recently. "By no means have we reached that conclusion yet."
http://news.com.com/Turning+up+the+heat+on+hybrid+cars/2100-11389_3-6026076.html-
Why would you think hybrids had "Glitter" in the first place?
( Isn't that the Mariah Carey movie which bombed and got her recodring contract voided? )
What hybrids DO have is good value for your gas dollar. I've driven 5,478 miles in the last 5 months and have paid about 5 cents per mile in gas money.
Glitter, my boney tailbone....
Honda OTOH is in a quandry. Their IMA system as you know is just a more developed one than your GM Sierra. It works very very well on the Civic but it doesnt belong linked to a V6 Accord in the same way that the V6 HH is wrong for the Toyota buyer. It's too pricey for what is mainly a power boost. The typical HonYota buyer doesnt care a whit for this added power. This buyer is looking for economy and reliability. Now put the IMA in an Acura like the HSD is in the Lexus' and they might have a winner - but not in the Accord.
But Honda can't put the IMA in a 4c Accord either. They know that their 'booster system' doesnt deliver enough power as compared to the HSD system. If they put it in a 4c Accord it will suffer badly in comparison to the new TCH. Honda can't afford it's flagship vehicle comparing badly to anyone. So they've painted themselves into a corner for the time being.
The best way for both Nissan and Honda to get out? Go in a completely different direction .. diesels, and leave the hybrids to Toyota. It's smart. Essentially Toyota has too big a lead on either one in the auto and light truck hybrid market so both should just exit gracefully, except for the HCH.
Public perception is vitally critical here in the US for Honda. While it's the 3rd ranked vehicle in Japan, in a lot of circles in this market it's often considered the premium vehicle for the mass market with style, performance, reliability and greenness. For that reason Honda needs to appear to be constantly on the 'cutting edge'.
The Insight was the first hybrid in the US ( it beat the Gen1 Prius by several months ) and it is still ranked the most efficient. But it was really just a concept vehicle rushed over to beat the Gen1 Prius to market and reinforce Honda's image here. But now it's gone from the scene.
The IMA system similarly was put in the Accord 18 months ahead of the HSD Camry reinforcing Honda's image of innovation and getting to market first. But it's in the wrong vehicle as stated above. Soon it too will quietly go away.
But Honda did get to the market first here in the US.
As cars go I like the Camry. The hybrid version would have to pencil out as economically viable to be a choice for me. I don't buy vehicles on emotion. Hybrids are more emotional than practical. I also want known reliability for 10-15 years. Current hybrids have less than 4 years on the road. The only exception is the very fine manual transmission Insight, which I consider the most practical of all hybrids.
Glitter? Hollywood is the only reason that the Prius is such a big hit. If it was the hybrid technology selling on it's own the HCH would be as big a seller as the Prius. The HCH does not look like a hybrid so it does not have the "Green" panache of the Prius. It is a so so seller. I predict the HCH will be selling below MSRP by June. Honda may not even continue the HAH. There is still no positive proof that Toyota is in the black on hybrids. I don't consider Toyota corporate spin as proof. The Prius has done what Toyota has wanted it to do. It makes them look green so they can build and sell more gas guzzlers in the USA.
I agree with everything you posted. Playing catch up using your competitors system, is not a good plan. Putting the hybrid system in luxury cars will appeal to the wealthy environmentally sensitive types.
I thought I weaned you off that idiocy a few months ago. I guess I failed.
Allow me to try again. Here's why you are wrong about "Hollywood" selling the Prius.
1. You yourself have said and you know that the Hybrid buyer is more educated than the average person, and usually more wealthy. Correct? So from that we can assume most hybrid buyers do not subscribe to "PEOPLE WEEKLY" magazine. Correct? So, following that logic, someone who is shallow enough to buy a car because a celeb is seen in one is PROBABLY not the sharpest tack in the drawer, correct? Thus we can conclude that stupid people do not buy hybrids, and only a stupid person would buy a car SOLELY because Leo or Sandra bought one.
2. Virginia is second largest state in hybrid registrations. Is there a disproportionate number of Leo or Sandra fans in Virginia? Or was it the tax break and the HOV lane break? I think we know that answer.
4. Toyota has never used a celeb to push the Prius in a Toyota advertisement, anywhere. If Toyota thought celebs sold cars and celeb endorsements were a good marketing tool, don't you think they would use that to their advantage? Yes, you know they would.
Hollywood helped in the INTRODUCTION of the Prius - but since then, the car has sold on it's own merits.
Hybrid technology sold 212,000 vehicles in the USA in 2005. That was not because of Leo.
Education nor wealth do NOT instill common sense. I agree that the HOV ignorance and tax incentives were responsible for many hybrid sales. So what is your point? That does not mean that hybrids are a practical solution to our gas guzzling ways or our pollution. They are price bloated by their complexity and I am sure as I am typing here the whole genre will come around to bite the early adopters in the butt. Many are already realizing how expensive it is to keep them past their extended warranties. That is NOT true for most of the non hybrid versions of these cars.
As a disclaimer: I have said many times that the Insight, Prius & HCH were good solutions for high mileage commuters, especially in urban traffic. I think the Luxo boats that are adding the hybrid name tag to gain a meager few miles to the gallon with a $5k to $10k premium are a joke. They prove the old addage "a fool and his money are soon parted".
* Hybrid sales will be spread among a much larger number of vehicle models, as many as 52, the research firm predicts, up from the current 11.
Boy, look at all those hybrids that Hollywood will get to sell.
They better get to work. There are hybrids sitting on the lots offered at big discounts. Only the Prius & HCH are moving off the lots at MSRP and above. The HAH, HH & RH are being discounted $3k and more to get them off the lots. The Ford Escape is an unknown as they claim Toyota has squeezed them down to a few hybrid transmissions per year.
I think the only honest voice in the industry is the head of Nissan. He is only building the hybrid to satisfy CA politicians. Same reason that GM wasted 2 billion developing the EV-1.
In that thread basically the anti suv'ers bemoaned the coming of the Mongol hordes of killer SUV's and how they would multiply like FLIES and literally take over the world. Well with all the bru ha ha, seems the NHTSA data shows SUV's are 12% of the passenger vehicle fleet. This took app 30 years. or a per avg yearly growth rate of .36% (a bit more than 1/3 of ONE percent per year growth).
Bottom line is I have never used it in the real world. This is across more than 525k miles. What I do fear as things get older is the ABS going out on one or more of the vehicles with the associated price tag of 500-1500 dollars. Of course I would not have this concern if I didnt have ABS.
One who has been tricked or made to appear ridiculous; a dupe: They made a fool of me by pretending I had won.
One who acts unwisely on a given occasion: I was a fool to have quit my job.
Diesels get very little media attention and when they do it’s almost grudgingly used as filler. One gets the feeling the media will be severely punished for even mentioning “diesel”
Since about the middle of December I have noticed a very slow increase in diesels coming into the spot light. I think with MB announced introduction of more diesels for the US this trend will only gain momentum.
Most all the media stories seem to point out somewhere in the story that "you will never recoup the extra money you spend" and so they can't be declared as "pushing" the technology. They (the print media) were not trying to sell the hybrids, but to merely just get information to the public.
Show me one print or web media story which urges people to go out and buy a hybrid and never mentions any downsides. I have yet to see one anywhere in 19 months of owning my hybrid.
You have hit it on the head. All the complexity to gain so little does not seem logical IMO. I think we have only seen the tip of the repair bill iceberg on some of these hybrids and other highly complex systems. They feel obligated to change them every 3-4 years and that leaves the mechanics clueless on the repairs. Just change out that $1000 module and see if it works. Oh, try this maybe that is what is causing the problem. And the automaker is smiling all the way to the bank.
Remember: There are as of January 2005 almost 750,000 hybrid vehicles on the road worldwide, including hybrid minivans in Japan and thousands of hybrid buses.
If they were breaking down in droves, we would know it. They just aren't.