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If so, why the full court press to convince everyone the hybrid is better???
"Remember people - if you drive a diesel, you are polluting far more than any Hybrid, ever.
MPG is not the only benefit of the Hybrid technology... "
Ditto on the scientific conclusions.
You can scientifically calculate what they call "confidence intervals", and conclude with, for example, 90 or even 95% certainty that a certain car is more fuel efficient than another.
However, to do so, you must get a large enough sample! When you are looking at one car, two, even twenty, that's not enough!
In fact, the only thing we can be certain of is that we don't know, because the samples are simply not large enough!
A large sample, collected fairly and scientifically, allows you to make certain claims. Even then you'd have to assume all other factors are equal, and they're not. People live in different places, different climates, with different driving habits.
The reason you see so much WILD fluctuation with my own observed mileage is that these factors are more significant than anything else.
Meanwhile, we have tiny samples of empirical data that aren't even verified. You can type in whatever you want in the EPA web site, so John could go enter 700 mpg and it would take it. ruking1 could go and do his own ballot stuffing technique and enter false numbers just as easily. I wonder what happens if you enter -700 mpg? I bet it takes it.
By the way, men can now get pregnant. I know because I read it on the internet!
http://www.malepregnancy.com/
I verified that with the same level of accuracy that the EPA did, by the way.
-juice
250,000 miles for the AVG Am driver at 12-15k per year is 20.8 years to 16.7 years.
Or you might have been driving down from Pikes Peak, coasting down hill the whole time.
In the context of a thread like this, I'm sure you would at least put your best foot forward, and show one of your better results, right?
This is why these data cannot be compared. They aren't scientifically normalized. They are idealized.
Same goes for the crowd reporting 53 mpg on a TDI, by the way.
Have a nice weekend. :shades:
-juice
What I INDEED proved by posting an ACTUAL PICTURE taken on Oct 25, 2005, is that Hybrids ARE capable of great MPG, and along the way, are not producing diesel exhaust.
I don't need a degree in statistics to believe what my car can do.
PS
for anyone who doubts the photo, post an e-mail address and I will send you the raw file. You can zoom close enough to clearly see the light reflecting out of the LCD panel and to clearly know that it's a genuine photo, not a fake. I should by now have enough credibility on this website for people to know I would never post a fake.
700.6 miles of coastin down? Whew, where's that at? :shades:
No where was EPA even referenced.
That statement you claim was never made.
The reference was to real-world data.
Your accusation is ridiculous.
JOHN
link title
Maybe they are testing a software game like: "DAWG the Bounty Hunter", where they are testing to see if they can remotely turn off a random vehicle, i.e., if one does not do something like: pay the car payments on time?
Kidding aside, while this could be labeled as "hybrid specific," I really do not see this situation as any different than any other recall, TSB, open/secret fix on any other car that has come before.
I'd rather be in the Prius than the TDI.
Stutter problem solved? Prob..Prob..probably NOT!
Someone needs to clue the Europeans in. No "donations" to CR, no good reports. CR is still a rag after all these years. They are not qualified to pick a good toaster. Let alone a reliable car.
Many people serious about getting great mileage opt for the TDI with manual transmission. I imagine with the new DSG we will see mileage in the high 40s with the VW TDI. For me if I could only have one car it would be a wagon or SUV.
I am not sure your source for Prius Mileage. I assume it is the GH site. As of today they show an average of 48.3 MPG for several hundred owners. According to your link at EPA the 2003 Jetta TDI with 19 respondents averaged 48.5 MPG. That is a small amount for any statistical conclusion. It is what we have and refutes your claim that the Jetta TDI gets less mileage than the Prius.
That gets back to my original post. The VW Jetta TDI Wagon is a good comparison against the Prius. They each have pro & con. For the city commuter I would give it to the Prius. For the highway commuter the Jetta. If you need twice as much space to haul stuff the Jetta wagon wins hands down. If you can find a couple year old VW Jetta TDI for a good price you can really save some money. The original owner will have taken care of the recalls. With a new Prius they are still stalling on the highway & Interstate.
I very clearly and undeniably stated *AUTOMATIC* transmission.
So no matter how many times you choose to quote data for the manual transmission instead, it simply doesn't apply.
Prius doesn't require the driver to shift. Mainstream consumers don't want manual transmissions. Get over it.
JOHN
Only in your limited mindset. To those truly interested in saving fuel, the manual transmission is a good option. The new DSG transmission being used by VW should match the MT mileage. We shall see.
Haven't ever driven a manual in stop & slow traffic on a daily commute, eh?
I did it for over 2 years. Having to shift so frequently was absolutely awful. What a horrid experience... the opposite extreme from Prius in the same conditions, effortless crawling along using only electricity without requiring the driver to ever shift.
Trying to convince us that a person would choose a clutch instead is the disingenuous claim.
JOHN
Not only does an automatic use more fuel under the band width of operation but it uses even more fuel in a stop and go and slow commute than an stick.
Correct, for a non-hybrid.
Incorrect, for a "full" hybrid.
JOHN
And your correction is incorrect for a full hybrid. How much better do you think a Prius hybrid would get on the fuel side if it were indeed a manual? Hard to say, given there is no comparison is there?
MANUAL = clutch with contact plates
AUTOMATIC = fluid & fin system that only makes contact during overdrive
FULL-HYBRID = Planetary-CVT
So no matter how much you attempt to twist intent, "manual" will always be associated with that specific hardware. And its the characteristics of that hardware which have always been the topic of discussion.
Whether or not you can alter the behavior of the Planetary-CVT manually is not. Because actually, you can. The EV button does in fact allow you to tell the system to favor the big motor more.
JOHN
It is you that is doing the twisting. I stated the differences in fuel mileage. So unless you have a magic wand and have overcome the laws of physics or gotten rid of the parasitic loss, the facts remain.
RE: Diesels I think the public is somewhat brainwashed regarding the diesel stench. Ever get behind a truck burning diesel? Yup... I had to open the windows too. U r def right about some of the gassers spewing crap too. Oughta be a law. Also there should be a law with the lowlifes that don't fix their mufflers.
Mainstream consumers don't want manual transmissions. Get over it.
Manual transmissions are for drivers that passionate about driving. They are most often offered in sports cars and cars with sports car attributes. Cars for driving enthusiasts.
It is for this reason that Corolla XRS and Civic Si do not even offer an automatic transmission.
Hybrids are less mainstream than manual transmissions. Get over it. Driving a Prius is boring. If driving a boring car with automatic transmission is mainstream, I never want to be mainstream.
It is unfortunate that there is no choice of transmission on Prius. No choice of sunroof. No choice of leather interior. If you want those types of choices you have to buy a Corolla or Camry.
I'm sure that Toyota will offer more hybrids with more driving exitement in the future.
I drove the 2004 Prius for the better part of a day. So I also have the SOTP understanding. (put app 300 miles on it) While I know what your quote means to me regarding the Prius, what does it mean to you?
And a luxury car. Let's not forget what the Prius is meant to be. A very efficient econobox. And it does that well. When you ask it to be sporting or luxurious, it falls on it's face.
Falconone
Let us know how you enjoy your new Prius.
CVT is nice because it is small and light weight. The drawback is the inability to handle power well except when used with engines that generate as much torque as a fine swiss watch. The CVT is a type of automatic transmission. It has an infinite set of gear ratios and also has a fair amount of slippage under acceleration. Now once under way, I am assuming that there is some type of locking device that kills all of the slippage between the engine and the wheels. Must be a clutch of some type.
Now with a manual, there is a clutch, some gears a few bearings, a shifter and a few synchronizers, and do not forget lubricant. Rather direct and simple. Like all transmissions has moving parts, but significantly less slippage than the CVT or a normal automatic transmission. Yes, it is a pain to shift in stop and go traffic, but you cannot beat this design for long term durability and simplicity.
The new generation of diesels hardly smell and as the older generation of diesels are retired, and ULSD becomes mandatory, there will be no smell.
-juice
As to the smell, they all smell to me be it gas or diesel. I find the odor from gas about as bad as that from diesel (older generation).
Another point, if you are crawling along in traffic in a Prius and you are using electric only, then the catalytic converter begins to cool down pretty quickly, does it not? So if it has been a good while since the engine has been run, will the gas engine when it is finally engaged (started)cause more pollution until the catalyst has returned to peak operating temperature? That only seems to make sense.
As a afterthought, I notice that NO hybrid was an entry in the DARPA Challenge, testing its applicability adaptability for remote operation/s. The diesel entrant happened to win the 2005 challenge.
(do a DARPA search, DARPA is a fed government web site, so if you have paranoid privacy concerns...don't)
http://www.darpa.mil/grandchallenge/
Some typos are pretty funny, but we have to watch the language even when it's an accident! :P