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Diesels (non-hybrid) simply are not competitive enough to satisfy the majority. The automatic transmission (which 90% of the US population prefers) do not deliver efficiency as high as the "full" hybrid
The VW auto that I have is really a clutchless manual, and until you've driven one, you won't understand why it can equal the manual for mileage. Furthermore, if everyone on the planet except the U.S. is going ape over diesels, how can you say Americans would never go for them? That simply flies in the face of logic. If there's any place where hybrids make the most sense, it's Europe. I agree that diesels are only an intermediate solution - but if you wanted to reduce U.S. fuel consumption by 25% in the next 25 months, the fastest, most practical solution would be to immediately allow all the European diesel powertrains into the U.S. market. I went from 17 mpg in a 4 runner to 42 mpg in a Jetta TDI. Those are real world numbers. I don't doubt that a Prius would equal or surpass those numbers, but I feel alot safer driving on 205/55 R16 rubber in a vehicle that handles as well as my previous BMW '99 323i.
Really? Reread the posts. You'll see claims that you made without providing any proof... like the A/C efficiency.
As you well know John, the Prius A/C needs to be powered via the electric motor, not the battery. So power is lost there. It's not like it can tap the battery directly. That's been mentioned on several Prius forums. You and I have both seen that, so let's drop that.
But the big problem comes from when you consider where the heck would the needed electricity come from.
Prove to me it's needed. Show me the capacity of both the 2006 Civic's battery pack, the 2nd generation Prius pack (HSD), and show me the consumption of both motors when cruising along in 'stealth' at 25mph. If you can't do this, please drop your claims about the 'added electricity', because you can't seem to back it up.
"Diesels are all round superior to hybrids in terms of running costs, manufacturing costs, flexibility in town and highway, they are winning hands down. Hybrids' only plus? A marginal advantage in very heavy traffic congestion," said Schmidt.
During the growth period of the so called "killer and environmentally unfriendly" SUV's from a low % to 12-15% of the passenger vehicle fleet,(NHTSA registration figures) air quality has actually improved in those urban area''s !!!!!
All that really has to happen is for the price of unleaded fuel to keep going up. It is an absolute no brainer to just look at what happens/ed in Europe when unleaded fuel is priced at $ 6. per gal. As most folks know every European oem (and NON European OEMS who want to sell to Europeans) and model has its diesel variant. Also the passenger vehicle fleet is fully 45% DIESEL and GROWING!! This is not to say that the hybrid does not have it's place for those inclined to spend the money in this fashion. After all hybrid is a "quasi" alternative. BUT...
Diesel's 37% fuel mileage advantage will bcome a no brainer event even in environmentalist's mathematics. It also is a TRUE alternative fuel. It is EVEN a RENEWABLE FUEL as opposed to the environmentalist definition of NON RENEWABLE. This of course is oxymoronic in that the non renewable fuel is what is advocated being USED by environmentalists. So how can one become LESS dependent on FOREIGN oil??????
Oil burner fuel can come from GARBAGE DUMP waste streams, used fryer oil, VEGAN CROPS, such as soy beans, corn: methane, natural gas, LNG, barnyard pooh, New applications are constantly being tested for economic viability
quote "Forget hybrids" -Automotive research firm J.D. Power and Associates agrees that diesels will be clean enough to compete and its latest data predicts that by 2012 almost twice as many diesels as hybrid cars and light trucks will be sold in America - 4.1 percent hybrid market share versus 7.6 percent diesel. In 2004, hybrids powered about 0.5 percent of cars and light trucks, with 3 per cent diesel.
"We are assuming that diesels will make the tough emission standards," said J.D. Power analyst Anthony Pratt.
-end
Ironically that helps your argument more.
-juice
If the environmentalists really want to save fuel automatic transmissions should be BANNED.(to use their logic)
As an aside a Prius's lousy fuel enconomy can easily be 2-6 mpg better with a manual transmission. On 48 mpg this is a range of 4-13% BETTER.
It is interesting to note (previous thread posted) that the more "conservative" environmental organizations, for as much as hybrids are being held up as the cure all for the planet are simutanously attacking Toyota for not giving better performance.??!!
To discuss only manuals is to discuss a very small niche, just 7% of all automobiles sold in the US.
Autos are getting better and closing the gap. How long before it's 96%? 100%?
-juice
PS All 3 cars in our driveway have a true clutch
Yes, it can. And it does.
Page 176 of 4007 in the repair manual says: "The electric motor is actuated by the alternating current power (201.6 V) supplied by the A/C inverter, which is integrated in the hybrid system inverter. As a result, the air conditioning control system on the ’04 Prius is actuated without depending on the operation of the engine, thus realizing a comfortable air conditioning system and low fuel consumption."
That 201.6 volts comes directly from the battery. To come from the generator motor, it would be 500 volts and the engine would have to be running. Neither of which is true.
So that statement was false, and we still don't have any proof of the Honda A/C claim either. Why?
JOHN
And you also know full well that tapping the engine directly for your main A/C, and hitting the battery for a small supplemental A/C is far preferable to always losing energy on the inversion penalty.
Please, supply me with the data I asked for, or drop your partial/full hybrid claims.
I have never driven a CVT, but I know they are very smooth. They can handle only so much torque so they are good for small engines.
Considering that the gasoline engine is relatively inefficient to begin with in comparison to diesel, and then all the losses during electrical generation, and then the losses when electricity is demanded, it is a wonder that the bloody thing works at all.
One other thing that is not being mentioned here and is a bit off of the subject is that Toyota takes a loss of several thousand on each Prius they sell. If they sold them at cost, far fewer people would buy them. Toyota is subsidizing the Prius with some of the profits made from the sales of their non-hybrids.
-juice
So what? It requires less energy than a parasitic tap from an engine having to run. That was the point. It is more efficient. (You claimed it wasn't even possible.)
Please answer my original question... How can that 11 MPG difference be dismissed?
JOHN
hey, to sidetrack you hybrid vs. diesel folks, if you like you can beat me up since i now drive a pontiac GTO (24 mpg highway, 21 mpg all-around) - instead of a jetta TDI.
on the other hand, i did trade the jetta tdi for a passat TDI for my wife and i to share. i think the passat handles and rides WAY better than did the jetta wagon. but of course, it gets a mere 37 mpg.
in other news, i drove a civic hybrid over the summer after i drove passat TDI from new england to cali. HCH felt heavier and worse-handling than the early-90s civics i used to own but i don't really have a good/current basis for comparison there. the engineer in me got a big kick out of hearing/feeling the regenerative braking/coasting in the civic - it was a similar satisfaction to that which i experienced while driving the 48 mpg jetta TDI around town.
but that fuel-saving satisfaction pales in comparison to the thrill from the absurd GTO torque & handling! when it snows and/or i want to feel economical again, i'll drive the passat TDI.
ps - i bet that diesel prices are going to go up this winter more than we've ever seen before, but i'd love to be wrong about that.
Germane to this discussion:
1. lightning fast shifts (ops this is an economics discussion) Be that as it may, one can shift faster and easier to be appropo to the existing conditions.
2. mpg savings over automatic transmissions, (and probably manual transmissions also) ie much less than the more efficient parasitic 20 % loss of the more efficient auto transmissions. So as a point of discussion, 2-9 mpg better.
3. One new advantage might be less clutch wear (or the driver inducted portion) due to individual driver variance.
4. now if we can chip away at the the parasitic drive train loss inherent in current vehicles which is between 11-20%.
I want to know why you say a partial hybrid can't be as efficient as a full hybrid. Where's the data John? Or do you not have it?
You have to realize the '06 Jetta TDI probably has a much stiffer chassis then your '03. They've also put in a major redesign in it's suspension - improving performance dramatically. It has the identical weight to the '99 323 (3300 pounds), identical tires (205/55 R16) and is probably very similar in handling- albeit 7 years later. I may be too generous in my assessment of the Jetta, but since I can't push the TDI like the 323's engine (only 100 horsepower), no true comparisons can ever be made. You can, however, infer that it's much better than a Prius - although I've never driven one. Has anyone ever considered the safety of the Prius? Those tiny tires look like they hardly have any traction!
On a seperate thread, I don't know why everyone keeps knocking the automatic (or it's derivatives like the DSG). I don't understand why a computer cannot do a better job of changing gears efficiently then a human? Am I the only one on this website guilty of occasionally drinking water or answering a cell phone (briefly, I promise!) while driving? I love the manual, but if you commute, you have to live with traffic.
With cars like these, better mileage per gal does NOT have to be legislated. JUST LET THE PRODUCTS IN !!!!????? Instead they let all the European gas guzzlers in. You like that 3/5/7 series BMW? All of them have diesel variants!!
The VW Jetta TDI gets 42/49 mpg which is better than 99% of currently available vehicles, yet is in danger of being EXCLUDED!!! (5 states ban new TDI sales) How is that for shooting the messenger!!??
Reporting Fuel Efficiency over Safety
Don't get caught in the Hybrid Hype!
quote- "CARMA's research of these issues provides a glimpse into a major challenge facing the automotive industry: how do you follow the trend without getting caught up in the hybrid hype?" -end
Toyota Profit Falls
Are hypebrids a dud for Toyota profitability?
Although you're probably right, you underestimate the American public. The future of diesels may not be in small cars, but it sure will be in a minivan or small to midsize SUV. I bet you could put that 2.2 liter Honda CDI diesel into an Odyssey and get 28 mpg city, 38 mpg highway. I bet you if they could deliver them to dealers now, they could sell >100,000 units in this country. People are seriously spooked this time around. If this global warming/hurricanes is real and here to stay - people will make a major shift in their decisions - it will have a far greater impact on their day to day life then say the Sept 11 attacks and the current war in Iraq ( no political opinion being implied - just the fact that the oil issue is serious). There are many who will ignore these issues, but most people I work with have woken up and taken notice. Everyone I know is talking about upgrading their mpg and everyone is interested in diesels as much as the hybrids.
1. The 330d is only 121 pounds heavier than a gas 330i comparing the 6 speed
manual versions
2. The 0-62mph times are only .4 secs slower for the diesel, 6.7 compared to 6.3
for the gas 330i 6 speed manual
3. Top speed 155mph for both
4. Fuel economy 5.1 (ltr/100km) for diesel vs. 6.4 (ltr/100km) for the gas 330i.
5. 330d HP 231@4000rpm vs 258@6600rpm for the 330i
6. Torque: 330d is 500nm @ 1750rpm vs 300 nm @ 3000rpm for the 330i
7. Only a 600pound(British) premium for the diesel version
8. It doesn't look like a Prius. I've also not seen a Prius that can top 150mph
These are pretty compelling arguments for people who want performance, style, and good fuel economy. I'll take my BMW 330d now thank you. Don't make me wait another two years, oh and I'll take that in an xi (AWD) version for winter driving.
Bring the diesels now!!!!!!
That 11 MPG is a fictitious figure that does not exist in the real world. You need to get over the Prius being the only high mileage car on the road. It is not the only high mileage car At least 5 other cars sold in the USA will match or beat the real mileage achieved by the Prius. Face it, Toyota got lucky when the EPA screwed up on the city mileage. Even your beloved Consumer Reports only got 35 MPG in city driving. That is close to 50% error and the reason many Prius owners are upset. We have hashed this out a hundred times. You insist on bringing out one of the biggest flaws in the EPA testing on the hybrids. Mile for mile, city or highway the HCH is equal to the Prius when it comes to fuel efficiency. Many say the HCH handles better.
PS
The climate control in my Hybrid GMC keeps the cab right on temp in the hottest weather when the engine is shut down at the stop lights. I cannot speak for the HCH, but however GMC accomplished that feat it works great.
I researched three cars, the Prius, VW Jetta diesel, and the HCH. The real word figures are 48.2, 41.2 and 44.7 respectively. Some of the samples are small, but it still gives you an idea of what people are getting. For the Prius that is -19.7% less than expected for city. For VW, it is 28.7% more than expected for city. For HCH it is -9.4 less than expected for city. This is from the site I have mentioned above.
In an earlier post, john1701a stated he was averaging 41.9 mpg, so that you be
-30.2% below the EPA value for city. In each case, I have divided the real world figure by the epa city figure to come up with these numbers. My interpretation is that the Prius may deliver a little bit better fuel economy, but at a greater efficiency loss than the HCH. What I found intriguting was that the VW diesel was actually more efficient than predicted, about 48.4% more than the Prius and 38.1% more than the HCH. Looks like the EPA tests are really flawed, does it not? I think they need to be re-vamped because they really do not predict the true economy of a car or it's drive system.
I drive a Jeep Liberty CRD (diesel). EPA highway is 26 mpg. I regularly get 29.4 mpg or 11.3% above estimate. For city, it is rated 20 mpg. I regularly get 21.3 mpg or 6.5% better than EPA estimate. Some people do better, others worse.
Would you rather get 28% more or 21% less???
I researched three cars, the Prius, VW Jetta diesel, and the HCH. The real word figures are 48.2, 41.2 and 44.7 respectively. Some of the samples are small, but it still gives you an idea of what people are getting. For the Prius that is -19.7% less than expected for city. For VW, it is 11.7% more than expected for city. For HCH it is -2.9% less than expected for city. Against the EPA combined value, the figures are -12.4%, +11.4%, and -7.3% respectively. This is from the site I have mentioned above. In real world, Prius is 48.2mpg HCH is 44.7mpg and VW is 44.6.mpg. The Prius is just 8% more fuel efficient than the VW and the HCH. Not really significant in my book, especially with the significantly higher initial cost of the Prius and for that matter the HCH too over their non-hybrid counterparts. VW diesel option is under $300. In my Jeep CRD it is $846 (stripping away mandatory items).
In an earlier post, john1701a stated he was averaging 41.9 mpg, so that you be
-30.2% below the EPA value for city. In each case, I have divided the real world figure by the epa city figure to come up with these numbers. My interpretation is that the Prius may deliver a little bit better fuel economy, but at a greater efficiency loss than the HCH. What I found intriguting was that the VW diesel was actually more efficient than predicted, about 31.4% more than the Prius and 14.6% more than the HCH. Looks like the EPA tests are really flawed, does it not? I think they need to be re-vamped because they really do not predict the true economy of a car or it's drive system.
I drive a Jeep Liberty CRD (diesel). EPA highway is 26 mpg. I regularly get 29.4 mpg or 11.3% above estimate. For city, it is rated 20 mpg. I regularly get 21.3 mpg or 6.5% better than EPA estimate. Some people do better, others worse.
I mean how useful would Z06 numbers be, 4 mpg to 35 mpg. ??? EPA 19/28?
Some people enter calculated mileage while others enter mileage from the car computer display. I have a mileage computer feature in my CRD. I have seen has high as 38mpg, but that was going 52 mph, coasting down a slight grade for several miles.
As to your real world mileage, I can see the 44 mpg and can easily believe low to mid-fifties. I have been there and done that myself in the early eighties. Sixty-two is probably doable, but I would have to see it.
EPA does not drive the vehicles. No one can replicate the type of driving EPA does, as the vehicles are not driven.
NO I DIDN'T !!!!!
Last month's average was 53.9 MPG.
My lifetime average is 49.3 MPG.
So I have absolutely no idea where that grossly incorrect statement above originated from. I certainly didn't say anything like that.
Also remember that the fuel I use is E10, which brings down my efficiency by about 1.7 MPG. That means my lifetime average using the same gas everyone else uses instead would be around 51.0 MPG.
JOHN
My point is that the while EPA estimates provide a measure of comparison that is standardized, however, they do not reflect real world mpg.
So to sue the EPA for using a long time tested test procedure is pretty ludicrous, once you understand the procedure. So do they test the Prius differently to get near the so called "advertized figures? So now what will happen if they sue successfully and now get "real world figures" test?? How are they going to test now an " unsue able" set of real world figures? Again my take is this shows how persnickety the gasser/ hybrid is relative to diesel applications.
You aren't with the American Trial Lawyers Association are you? I knew I got into the wrong profession!!
That still makes the Prius less efficient than the HCH or the VW TDI in the Jetta.
NO! NO! NO!
How can you possibly draw a conclusion without having the needed data? No where did I state my city average, only the overall average. Making an assumption is not appropriate.
Starting with a warm engine, just like the EPA does for their tests, I do in fact achieve that 60 MPG estimate.
JOHN
Since when is selectively choosing data appropriate?
Real-World data requires including *everything*, the *entire* driving experience in *all* conditions, an *overall* average.
And the overall average for Prius clearly shows that it is more efficient than those competing vehicles.
.
> I researched three cars, the Prius, VW Jetta diesel, and the HCH. The real world figures are 48.2, 41.2 and 44.7 respectively.
What more needs to be argued? These real-world figures clearly show Prius is more efficient.
JOHN
How do you know your engine is at proper operating temp? So you have a temp gauge. Is it accurate? EPA testing is highly controlled and done by computer controlled devices. They warm up the car and then test. If you have a computer that displays mpg, it is wrong like every other computer that displays mileage. The only valid numbers are those that are calculated.
As you state, you can achieve EPA mileage with a warmed up engine, and so can anyone else, under certain ideal conditions. If you let your Prius sit until warmed up before you drive it, then your mileage figures are suspect.
One other note, every diesel powered car real world mileage exceeds the EPA combined mileage in every case. The Prius and the HCH do not. If the TDI diesel can consistently exceed EPA combined ratings, then I must conclude that the gasoline powered hybrid has a significant problem with efficiency loss, some worse than others. There is adequate data to show this.
So what?
The EPA estimates only provide ideal-condition comparison values anyway.
It's what owners actually achieve that matters. And those numbers are 48.2, 41.2 and 44.7 ...which clearly show the "full" hybrid delivered the highest efficiency.
JOHN
My point is this, so what if the Prius gets more mpg. Look at the losses from the ideal. Look how much closer others get to the ideal than the Prius. Too much energy lost to achieve such mileage.