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Comments
-juice
http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/23/Autos/hybrid_alternatives/index.htm
First, change the way you drive. There's no trophy for being first to arrive at the red light, or beating everyone away from the green. In driving tests by Edmunds.com, simply going easy on the gas and brake pedals garnered gas mileage improvements of about thirty percent. Hybrid buyers pay thousands for that kind of savings.
Second, consider buying diesel. Diesel cars cost only a little more than gasoline-powered cars, but they get far better fuel mileage. Also, because their engines are more durable, diesels have better resale value than gasoline-powered cars. That alone should be enough to make up any additional cost of the vehicle, leaving the gas-money savings in your pocket. Also, diesels will qualify for tax credits under the new tax rules. Again, diesel buyers might want to wait until next year to buy.
The point is, don't just get sucked into the hybrid hype. If what's really important to you is saving on fuel, do a little thinking before you buy. There are lots of options available.
Even the author's statements on diesels exhibits misinformation. He states diesels cost only a little more than gasonline--powered cars, yet in the article he links to for more information states that the average diesel costs $2k more than a gas car. Yet no numbers on how long it takes to make up this $2k premium.
It is common sense to talk about changing the rapid stop and go most people do. Changing the way you drive in a conventional car, you will get more mpg. However, if you change the way you drive in a hybrid (which is often easier to do with either instant feedback or some techniques built in to help you), you will also get higher mpg. I use the techniques they disucss in my taurus and get 30 mpg in town. I use these same techniques in my Prius and get 60 mpg in town.
Golf and New Beetle, I guess, but both are older designs.
Liberty CRD just isn't all that efficient, even with a diesel. You'd save more in a conventional RAV4, CR-V, or Forester.
Few can afford an E class diesel, nice as it is.
I can't to see some real diesel options in the show room.
-juice
Liberty CRD just isn't all that efficient, even with a diesel. You'd save more in a conventional RAV4, CR-V, or Forester.
CRD is delivering 27 highway and 21 city for most owners. Compared to Liberty V6 there is a significant increase in savings. Compared to a RAV, CR-V or Forrester the mpg is similar and capability much greater. Price of CRD ($22K right now with rebate and employee pricing) is comparable to the less capable competitors also.
Where is there a cost savings with RAV, CRV or Forrester?
quote from Edmunds test of Liberty CRD in comparo to Lexus H and Highlander H-But the Jeep Liberty diesel came through with 21 mpg against a 21 city/26 highway rating. Our CRD tester also recorded the best tank of this group, 25 mpg over 220 miles. & It also adds about $2 grand to the price tag, though with the added equipment that comes standard on the diesel, the difference is really just $845. -end
As far as being a deal or dud here is another quote from Edmunds - Based on the mileage we got in the Liberty CRD, we'd come out ahead after a year of ownership. It would take us about five years to break even in the Highlander Hybrid and about six years in the RX 400h.-end
The diesel is the deal and the hybrids are the duds.
It has had it's share of growing pains just as the Prius has. Yet the owners of both love them. In reality the CRD & RH are not in the same league. The RH is over double the price. If someone wants a SUV that gets 25 MPG for under $25k the CRD is a decent choice. If you look at the sales, Liberty is one of the top sellers in the SUV category. I am awaiting the diesel Grand Cherokee. It is supposed to be using that fine Mercedes 320 CDI engine.
ESP is STANDARD in 2006 Liberty.
Liberty CRD has an engine that is proven reliable in Europe and average or better reliability should be expected for the NA version. There is a software reflash for the engine and transmission for the early build Liberty that solves the major complaints. The overheating issue is also a software issue.
Prius Stalling on Highway :lemon: Prius is not problem free.
The highway ride is fine. The ride is much improved due to suspension improvements made since the introduction of the Liberty in 2002.
The Jeep Liberty is a JEEP. It has off road capability and competency by design.
I would not buy a 4WD SUV unless I needed that capability. There are cars that are far superior to the Lexus and Highlander Hybrids for mileage and comfort that will not go off road and will not tow.
22.7 mpg City 31 mpg hwy Popular Mechanics
Canadian Driver tested CRD and obtained 27 mpg city and 35 mpg CRD Canadian Driver
23.2 mpg when Autoweek tested the CRD. Autoweek CRD Test
Motor Trend did not do as well, 21.7 mpg city and 22.8 mpg hwy.
Car and Driver obtained 20 mpg.
USA Today obtained 23.3 mpg
This revised engine is used in the UK also, where 28.5 mpg (imperial) is expected. UK Cherokee It is described as but all the way there it's as competent and collected as most executive saloons
Are you able to discern a trend of mpg results here? Consumer Reports is losing credibility when their testing yields results that are not comparable with everyone elses results.
Basically, they compare the CRD to a quicker, more powerful V6. So you sacrifice some performance. I think it should be compared to the base 4 cylinder, then the break-even points don't look nearly as good.
Same with the Escape, by the way. So it's not a diesel vs. hybrid thing, it's a matter of comparing vehicles that perform similarly. Else we'd compare the 2 seat Honda Insight to a Chevy Corvette Z06 and noone would ever buy a 'vette. Performance matters even when fuel economy is a high priority.
The Highlander, which has the V6 + electric boost, is different. It adds performance.
CR got 18mpg IIRC, vs. 22 mpg for the Forester and some others small utes. That's what I was referring to. Interesting to see that other car mags did much better than CR, but we'd need more data to compare the CRD to the RAV4 and other sport/cutes.
Any how, the break even point isn't quite so clear. You have to make sacrifices some where (performance mostly).
The Highlander hybrid offers more performance and more economy than the regular V6 Highlander. So you gain performance and you gain economy. That extra performance is worth a premium, just as the sacrifice in performance for the Liberty CRD is basically a penalty you should get something in return for as well.
Highlander V6 handily outguns a Liberty CRD, that definitely carries a lot of value to many people. CR also reported much better mileage. Of course, it costs a lot more to begin with.
-juice
You stated twice that Liberty is a lemon and you are knowledgeable as you are a past owner, then you state Hopefully its quality wil improve. My Liberty was a pre-lowered model that ran fine during my entire ownership experience. It was jittery on the highway, extremely loud and managed 16mpg overall. You are criticizing the 2005-2006 Liberty CRD based on ownership of a gas pre-2005, Liberty prior to suspension improvements and interior improvements. Geez, that is a pretty lousy comparison.
You earlier stated that the Liberty was not even available with stability program. This was a false statement. Liberty has standard ESP (Electronic Stability Program) as standard on all models for 2006.
Be fair and present some facts. If your opinion is that the Liberty has horrible highway handling, fine, however, let us know what year Liberty you have experience with.
Basically, they compare the CRD to a quicker, more powerful V6. So you sacrifice some performance. I think it should be compared to the base 4 cylinder, then the break-even points don't look nearly as good. Are you referring to Jeep CRD vs. Jeep V6? If so, no performance is sacrificed. CRD has greater torque, same towing, about half of the tests of CRD have quicker 0-60 mph times than the 3.7L six and half are 1 second or less slower. Boils down to being equivalent or better. There is no more 4 cyl Liberty for 06 fyi.
Sure, the Highlander and the Lexus are quicker than the Liberty.
That's still a sacrifice worth mentioning.
With the Escape hybrid the discrepancy is bigger. In that case the V6 is a whole bunch quicker than the hybrid. And they still offer a base 4 banger.
-juice
As to the validity of CR evaluations, I give them no credence whatsoever. As to the complaints you see in the Jeep Liberty CRD forum, it is always the same few who are complaining. Many of these people have never owned a diesel before. Many of the issues are with early builds and the majority of them are software related. Those who are having to invoke lemon laws have bad dealers in most cases. I guess I am fortunate to have a really good dealer.
As to hybrids, I have several issues with them. You still need to burn gas to charge the batteries and in the process lose 30% efficiency. Also, you are constantly lugging around the equivalent of at least one to two passengers in the form of a battery pack.
One of the items hybrid supporters do not address is the fuel. Gasoline comes from a non-renewable source, petroleum or coal. Diesel can come from biomass, such as waste vegatable oil, fryer grease, animal fats. All of these are renewable and are greenhouse gas neutral. Petroleum/coal based fuels are not greenhouse gas neutral.
As to performance, the CRD is as quick as the gas version and in some cases a bit faster. I did not buy my CRD for the performance. On the highway, I regularly exceed 29 mpg and I only have 5400 miles on my CRD. It is not even broken in as of yet. In mixed city/highway (60/40), I get about 22 mpg. All this with a vehicle that weighs 4300+ pounds empty and no fancy gimmicks.
Considering the above costs, diesel is very cheap to buy.
HSD is planned to be a high-volume production design... 1 million annually by 2010, in fact. That will make replacement components much less expensive.
John, that's naughty. You know that any HSD component used in one car probably won't work in another HSD car. The HSD system in the Highlander is so completely different from that in the Prius they may as well call it HighlanderHybridSystemThat'sNotInThePrius. The only thing they share is the marketing name "HSD".
In europe, you can purchase a diesel MB and some other diesel powered brands for less than their gasoline counterparts. Now if they applied that thinking here, the demand for diesels would be unreal.
In a another post, it was mentioned that the Grand Cherokee would be getting a Benz diesel. Not so. The diesel will be a 3.0 L V-6 from V.M. Motori of Italy. About 210 HP and 370 lb-ft of torque. V.M. Motori makes the diesel for the Liberty CRD and Chrysler has been using them for years in europe with outstanding results. They are also making diesels for Hyundai cars sold in europe.
I have had my CR-V on unimproved roads, which I guess qualifies as "not paved". The most interesting time was when I found my self fording an arryo in the desert after a rainstorm. It was only 6" deep or so... Never had any traction problems there or in the snow.
The CR-V was not meant to go into rough conditions, but then, I didn't buy it for that reason either. I suspect I spend more time in the conditions for which I purchased it (around town with occasional severe weather conditions) than you do driving your CRD off road (as a % of the driving time, of course). Unless you really live in the boonies.
Liberty CRD has capabilities the CR-V lacks.
Liberty
in exchange, they get a much better and comfortable ride
Concur. Now for my statement:
The CR-V has capabilites the CRD lacks. Like the capability to get 30 MPG at 65 MPH (YMMV). Or the 40 cu ft of cargo space with the rear seats slid forward. Not sure if the Liberty rear seats recline or not. How about curtain airbags, EBD, anti-locking brakes, 5 speed transmission, stability control, part time 4WD?
In any case, it is not a matter of better or worse. Each is best in it's own environment. I don't go offroad, and I don't have a need to tow. I did not consider the Liberty.
And, of course, you cannot buy a CRD new here in California, so it would be a moot point anyway.
1. I can get 29.5+ mpg at 65 mph with a green engine (only 5500 miles on it). Weighs 4300 lbs empty, about 700 - 800 more than the CR-V.
2. Have 69 cu ft with rear seats down, about 30 cu ft with them up. Rear seats do not recline.
3. Can get side curtain airbags as option.
4. Have four wheel disc ABS
5. Have a five speed automatic with two different second gears.
6. Stability control, available for 2006. Would not buy it. Do not need it.
7. For drives, in HI have 2WD, Full-time 4WD, Part-time 4WD. In low have full-time 4WD.
8. Have 295 lb-ft of torque at 1800 rpm with 85% available from 1400 - 3200 rpm. Torque on the CR-V is way less than 200 lb-ft at about 4000 rpm.
9. Diesel at this time is about 10 - 18 cents less per gallon than unleaded regular where I live.
10. Have a 20.5 gallon tank. Allowing for a 2.5 gallon reserve, tha comes to 531 miles on 18 gallons of diesel. Not good if you have a weak bladder.
What is EBD?
below is summary of the stats for 2005 Liberty CRD test-
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD
Engine 2.8-liter dual-cam 4-cylinder common rail diesel
Horsepower 160
Torque 295 lb feet
0-60 mph 9.5 seconds
1/4 mile 17.1 seconds @ 79 mph
60-0 mph 141 feet
EPA Mileage 22 mpg city
27 mpg highway
MotorWeek's mileage loop 24 mpg mixed city/highway
-end
CRD delivered much higher mpg than V6 Liberty and better 0-60 and 1/4 mile time than V6 Liberty also.
I'm peeved at seeing the news articles for Consumer Reports when they state the their test resulted in 11 mpg for Jeep Liberty CRD. CRD delivers 19 mpg even when driven extremely aggressively. How is it even possilble to obtain 11 mpg unless there is a hole in the tank?
Hybrid and Diesel drivers get irritated when impossibly low mpg is reported. I know that this is a peeve for hybrid owners as I have capitalized on it in the past. Forgive me.
It takes a certain technique of driving to maximize mpg for hybrids, diesels, and conventional gas engine vehicles. Ford and Toyota have begun to offer cliniques where optimal driving to maximize mpg is explained. Kudos to them.
CRD is a nice addition to the marketplace.
Regarding the CR-V, I only wish it was offered in the US with the diesel that is offered in the UK. seclect 2.2 CDI for enginel Now that is a darn nice vehicle for non-offroad needs!
IMO what is truly needed in US is to adopt the EU emissions regulations regarding diesels. Would maintain progress to reduce emissions and allow diesels from Europe to be imported without costly re-engineering. Take a look at the Accord diesel. Very impressive.
Daimler-Chrysler could also bring in diesel powered minivans.
"The combination of a ready supply of coconuts, rising fuel prices and ease of manufacture makes this a real option for villagers who need to run equipment like generators or boat engines," Mr Rogoiumari said.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3436359a11,00.html
So waste stream dump conversion to bio diesel, used fryer oil, soybean, corn, coconut, chicken, turkey, cow, vegetable waste, natural gas to #two diesel, etc etc yada yada, sure offers a lot more (alternative) ways to get it, doesn't it? Oh, did I forget to say : RENEWABLE RESOURCES??
http://www.easier.com/view/News/Motoring/Toyota/article-28870.html
All I'm saying is there are trade-offs, each individual has to decide if they are worth it.
-juice
Well, two weeks ago, there was an article from an online consumer newsletter I receive weekly. They spoke about the same issue, shock hazard. In both the Toyota and Honda hybrids there is a main switch to kill all the power, but getting it is another story.
This past Thursday on the local news, there was a story concerning this same issue, shock hazard. They did point out that Toyota had done a nice job of marking all the high voltage lines and had done a nice job of protecting the battery pack. But the issue they made was that in spite of all the training rescuers were receiving, and all of the safety features that have been employed, there was no way to be absolutely sure that the power was off. That means that there is a risk of getting shocked or killed and a delay in treating an accident victim. :sick:
http://www.sltrib.com/healthscience/ci_3104988
This contradicts the assumptions made in that study about gas costing $1.80 and diesel $1.55, bad assumptions we all know.
-juice
-juice
That was not an assumption, it was the actual cost of fuel at the time. Now you can not find $1.80 gallon gas anywhere. October and November are usually the two months of the year that diesel cost exceeds gasoline. At least this is true in my area for the last 5-8 years. $2.93/g diesel and $2.67/g regular unleaded today. I'm driving my Mazda!
The TDI versions of the Volkwagen New Beetle, Golf and Jetta (both manual and automatic transmission) are the three models cited in the rankings. Gasoline-electric hybrid vehicles captured five of the other top ten spots, with one gasoline-powered vehicle making the list.
link title
1. It appears as if the CR-V has more rear leg room and somewhat better cargo capacity.
2. All 2006 CR-Vs have stability control, plus the side airbags, ABS, etc.
3. Limited time 4WD is more fuel efficient for light off road. I would not take the CR-V into serious off-road conditions.
4. Diesel is 50 cents more per gallon here in LA than regular gas.
5. I wish the CR-V had a bigger gas tank. But then that would take room from the under cargo floor "ice chest" (round compartment that is water tight, but has a drain hole).
PS. Do you have a built in picnic table? :shades:
Diesel $3.19 gas $2.99 at Pilot in CA
4. Diesel is 50 cents more per gallon here in LA than regular gas.
You can pay $.50/g more for diesel if you want to, however, it pays to shop around.
PS. Do you have a built in picnic table?
No. CRD will travel to picnic areas that a CR-V can not.
What is the range of the CR-V? CRD is over 500 miles.
All 2006 CRD have standard stability control, plus ABS, optional side airbags, etc.
3. Limited time 4WD is more fuel efficient for light off road. I would not take the CR-V into serious off-road conditions.
Every CRD has part time 4WD. Every CRD has full time 4WD. Pull the lever to make a choice.
Jeep Liberty = Trail Rated
Honda CR-V = Mall Rated
quote Edmunds CR-V Review - Want to explore the local mountains as well as the mall? Check out the Jeep Liberty or Nissan Xterra. Do you want the room of a sport-ute, but still crave the performance of a sedan? Get a Toyota RAV4. Need serious horsepower to pull a small trailer? The Ford Escape is the one you want.
Then again, maybe none of those scenarios figures into your plans.-end quote
Yep, if none of those scenarios fit your plan, get a CR-V.
No. CRD will travel to picnic areas that a CR-V can not. "
Ummm, I doubt if you really use the 4WD that there will be a picnic table at the other end. Ironic, no?
Honda CR-V = Mall Rated "
Just got back from Chaco Canyon. Took the south route out, and it had been raining all day. It was a lot of fun, being either total washboard or sicky mud. The rear wheels were kicking in all the way. Must have missed the mall on the side of the road somehow. Too bad, it would have been nice to grab a snack, since it was well after dark.
I should note that this is about as far into the wild as I would take a CR-V. Each vehicle has it's design purpose. The CR-V purpose is occasional light off road and excellent long term reliability. I use my CR-V in town the vast majority of the time; how often do you use your CRD for off road as opposed to in town?
FWIW, I get about 340 miles on a tank of gas, though I have gotten over 400 occasionally (at highway speeds). However, to date the most I've gotten on my son's bladder is about 65 miles, so it really isn't that important for me...
In any case, there was no comparison with the Gas version of the liberty (CRD not available here in CA). I too will quote from Edmunds on the LIberty 3.7:
Pros Extremely capable off-road, economical diesel engine option, creative interior design.
Cons V6 is rather thirsty at the pump, not as "carlike" on the street as most of its competitors.
EPA 18 mpg / 22 mpg
CRV 22 / 29
These are both for the 2WD version, but I can't imagine why anyone would buy a 2WD Liberty.
Too bad about getting diesels here in CA. I might actually have considered the CRD.
Really? Where? That was published, what, about a month ago?
Tell me because I'm thinking of moving there!
Took a road trip from MD to CT, and never once saw diesel cheaper than gas, though in one single station it was the same price. Up to 30 cents more per gallon, on average about 15 cents higher right now.
Low-sulfur diesel is supposed to bring prices up a bit, too. Hopefully it is a seasonal thing and prices will settle down.
-juice
it was the actual cost of fuel at the time
Really? Where? That was published, what, about a month ago?
The article used the EPA annual fuel cost figures. Where can you find it? Print the 2005 Fuel Economy Guide from the EPA site.
EPA annual fuel costs are based on the prior 12 month price average prior to publication of the fuel economy guide.
Tell me because I'm thinking of moving there!
You will have to move to USA circa 2003-2004, the time period of the data used for the 2005 fuel economy guide. Time machine may be one of the "bells and whistles" on the Prius.
trivia-
Q- When was regular gasoline $1.80 gallon average price.
A- January 2005 - Regular Unleaded $1.79/gallon average as recorded by EPA.
Prices change quickly, don't they?
So how much is gas and diesel in Brazil now?