Hybrids & Diesels - Deals or Duds?

gagrice

SULEV is an industry standard that clean diesel alone cannot achieve

You cannot get SULEV with unleaded gas without several thousand dollars worth of emissions stuff. Remember the poor Prius owners replacing their Catalytic convertors for over $2000.

ateixeira

Isn't that 8 years, 150k miles, in Cali? 100k in other places?

If so that's not much of a concern...

And it's not like urea-injection on diesels is going to be free.

I really don't get the hostility between these two camps. Different ways to achieve the same means - range and efficiency.

-juice

ruking1

Lets see it is now 4 years and at 10 years. Before of course it used to be every two years. Of course it is really of not much concern especially that I do not have to do it at those intervals, A smog is also required upon sale. It is a real concern if my gasser does not pass the smog. Just recently had a friend who on a late model suburu outback (gasser) had to pony up 2500 dollars just for smog compliance. Lets see 2500 plus 60 plus 100= 2660, buys 887 gals of diesel or 41,673 miles. For most folks that is 3 .47 years of 12,000 miles per year in fuel.

ateixeira

That line of thinking doesn't make any sense...

You're basically saying that Toyotas are so unreliable that they are likely to cost you *thousands* to maintain and then comparing it to the cost to fuel a VW?

And that assumes VWs have perfect reliability forever, and never, ever have any problems that cost their owners a penny.

Ri-iiiiiiight.

-juice

ruking1

BUT that isn't the line of thinking. It is the line of thinking you might want to attribute to me, but it is patently FALSE that I think this way. Since I have had 14 year old Toyota Landcruisers to another that is 11 years old. I have had to go through the smog drill every two to up to every 4 or so and at the 10 year mark the smog only station. As you probably know if you are a Californian the smog only stations charter is really to remove the "oldies" from the passenger vehicle fleet. CA has also initiated the dyno type smog test which creates even more data points for potential failure. One piece of good news for 4wd's is they have not found a safe way to put a 4 wheel drive though the dyno. So in practice the procedure is more like your local smog shops. However the fee at smog only shops is far higher than your local smog shops also. So all is great if you happened to pass and of course you have dropped fees and higher fees to receive that the news that you already knew. . Again the news was more costly in my friends case. Actually I was a bit confused in that the Suburu Outback is considered a greenies chariot of choice. I was further confused in that this is a late model vehicle. However it did have over 100k.

..."And that assumes VWs have perfect reliability forever, and never, ever have any problems that cost their owners a penny. "...

This is patently false, I know that and even you know that. So I am not sure why you want me to take the blame for a false premise of YOUR MAKNG.

Again you miss the point that the VW diesel is exempt from the smog checks, which logically means, one does not have to pay for them when they are due for they are not due. Also one is not put in the position of accomplishing MANDATED repairs: i.e., such as my friends SUBARU or face condemnation or non certification. ie can't legally run it on the road.

But I do have to mention that when the battery goes out on the VW Diesel I will have to pay from 40-100 for the battery. vs a probable 2k -4k or so when the Prius's is due. Again not to piss anyone off put the difference can buy a lot of diesel fuel. In this particular case 29,767 miles of commute. Or if it is closer to 4k, 62,667 miles.

gagrice

I really don't get the hostility between these two camps.

I don't either. I came to this forum looking for a high mileage small PU truck 6 years ago. I knew they existed in other countries, just not the USA. I thought maybe hybrids would answer the call. I tested the Prius the first month it hit our shores. I liked it my wife did not and that was that. I was still looking for an economical PU truck. In researching and following this forum it became obvious that hybrids were too expensive to be economical. Those that are only interested in the environment would disagree. I think the animosity arises because there is a dividing line between those that want an economical vehicle and those that feel there has to be zero tolerance with regards to emissions. What has come out over the course of the last couple years is the hybrid system that is used in especially the Toyota vehicles is very limited in it's overall abilities. Especially so with the SUV hybrids. They are not able to be used much offroad or towing. And they barely surpass the non-hybrid versions in emissions and mileage. I don't care for some of the name calling that seems to pop up more in the hybrid forum than any of the others here on Edmund's.

john1701a

> Remember the poor Prius owners replacing their Catalytic convertors for over $2000.

There have only been a handful of cases of this, and they were all using high sulfur gas for several years. Low sulfur gas is mandated nationwide in only 3 months, which means a good share of the population is already using it.

Sulfur build up causes cleansing equipment to fail. And since that sulfur has been dramatically reduced now, it has become a non-issue for gas. Next year, the same will be true for diesel... if they actually start including that cleansing equipment.

JOHN

ruking1

I am glad you are starting to come around to agreeing with my posting about the similarity between leaded to unleaded regular to low sulfur and how diesel has been going thru the same issues only YEARS later.

Actually some diesels have had the same intake manifold issues. It is due to mandated higher sulfur fuel. While the new standard low sulfur fuel is mandated for 2006 I am getting the feeling it will be slipped back to more like 2007/2008.

gagrice

There have only been a handful of cases of this, and they were all using high sulfur gas for several years.

That would not have cost near as much in a non hybrid car was my point. You act like it was the Prius owner that was at fault for using high sulfur gas.

You are correct it would be the same with a diesel car if VW & Mercedes were to put the expensive PM filters on their cars for use with our crappy diesel in most of the USA.

Why should the consumer suffer the cost because the gas or diesel is of a poor quality? Why does the Prius catalytic convertor cost 10 times as much as the Camry unit?

ruking1

Again Gagrice brings up a good point. We would not have near the issues if both high sulfur diesel and leaded regular were transformed at the same time. I think it was done that way for there was an anti diesel passenger car bias. This is way evident by the 2.3-2.9% of the passenger vehicle fleet being diesel.

stevedebi

"There have only been a handful of cases of this, and they were all using high sulfur gas for several years. Low sulfur gas is mandated nationwide in only 3 months, which means a good share of the population is already using it."

If it was the sulfur in the gas, wouldn't we have read about catalytic converter failures in all of the ICE cars out there? Why would the Prius be different?

woof

They both save gas. As an engineer with a 100 mi/day commute I had to find a solution. I've owned both Toyota and VW products and was very unhappy with my '02 Accord for reasons other than gas mileage. I tested both Prius and Golf TDI. Prius does better for in-city MPG, TDI on highway. Diesels are much simpler systems--diesel/compression engine is more simple than gas/ignition. Hybrid is a sophisticated blend of gas, electric, and control systems. Battery life decreases over time and will eventually need replacement--will this lead to environmental concerns as batteries are generally not environmental friendly? I expect that Prius is reasonably reliable. I opted for the TDI after test drives. It's actually fun to drive, more so than my 4 cylinder Accord. I now have 73k trouble free miles on the TDI. I've met TDI owners at the diesel pump that have well over 300k miles on their cars and are still pleased. I'm getting 50 mpg using the car for my daily commute which is approx. 80% highway driving at speeds up to 80 mph. Just wanted to add some input based on my experience. Hybrids are not bad... I'm very pleased with my diesel.

ateixeira

the smog drill every two to up to every 4 or so and at the 10 year mark the smog only station

Sorry, but that's not very clear. Do you go every 2 years, or every 4 years (or so?), and what changes once the car is 10 years old? You go on odd years that are only divisible by prime numbers greater than 7?

smog only stations charter is really to remove the "oldies" from the passenger vehicle fleet

Not really, it's according to the specific measured amount of pollution a particular car puts out. If it's kept in good running condition then it should pass, right? At any age. My Miata is 13 years old and is clean as a whistle because it's kept in good tune.

To be clear - MD tests every 2 years regardless of the age of the car.

one is not put in the position of accomplishing MANDATED repairs

You state this passionately, shouting it out even.

Does that mean you think it's OK if an out-of-tune diesel spews out blue smoke and soot and the owner does nothing about it? Just because it's not mandated doesn't mean it's what the owner should do.

My question is, why do you distinguish between a mandated repair and a common sense, I-have-a-conscience-and-will-do-the-right-thing repair? To me there is no difference. You do the right thing.

If your friend with the Outback knew his car was polluting, would you have recommended he kept on driving it, as is? Really?

What you've done, twice now, is compared the worst-case scenario of Prius ownership (catastrophic catalytic converter failure plus early and expensive battery failure) to the best-case scenario of diesel ownership.

You've been lucky, basically. Reliability is not rated very high for your TDI.

-juice

ruking1

Sorry, but that's not very clear. Do you go every 2 years, or every 4 years (or so?), and what changes once the car is 10 years old? You go on odd years that are only divisible by prime numbers greater than 7?

That's KALI FOR KNEE AH for ya BABY.

What changes at 10 years? In actuality? Not much.

From the states point of view? They are looking for almost any reason to take your car off the road. Your reference to odd years only divisable by prime numbers etc might be in fact be their reasoning

Do I see myself as lucky? No, no luckier or worse off except for anyone who gets a lemon "anything." I knew for example that VW's have very high quality but have a higher problem RATE with reliability. If I were to compare the Civic quality to the VW it would be much poorer than the VW. However the Civic has a reputation for having a lower problem rate in the reliability department. So in fact for similar miles, I have had absolutely NO problems with either vehicle.

Also the tires are projected to last far shorter in the mileage department than the VW Jetta.: almost 3x longer in the Jetta. Normally I and most folks would chalk that up to driver variation but in fact the same drivers drive these cars. But truly stuff like this doesnt get much press.

john1701a

> Why would the Prius be different?

Because it was the only SULEV available in states that didn't have low-sulfur gas.

JOHN

moparbad

258 million tons of culm, and the break even point for the fuel is $1 gallon. YAHOO!

waste coal diesel

The raw material for diesel fuel is everywhere!

environment-friendly technology that can turn natural gas to diesel
natural gas to diesel

ruking1

I would also agree. Used fryer oil (would have to be remediated in the waste disposal stream) if not converted to fuel such as bio diesel . Waste processes in many different applications including GARBAGE can generate materials convertible to fuel. It can be grown from soy beans. etc,etc, RENEWABLE and alternative. It can be from domestic sources. It is also a natural product of producing unleaded regular. It can be produced from coal. It can be refined from natural gas. etc, etc.

gagrice

If it was the sulfur in the gas, wouldn't we have read about catalytic converter failures in all of the ICE cars out there? Why would the Prius be different?

Very simple. When a Catalytic convertor on a Camry or Accord goes bad you go to Midas and for $150 to $250 they replace it. If the Catalytic convertor goes bad in a Prius you have to go to Toyota and the cost of the two posted here was $2100 & $2800 to replace. All the gas they saved over the miles they drove went down the toilet in one repair.

ruking1

Lets see, the difference between a catalytic convertor on C/A vs Prius is 2550 or another 850 gal or 32,300 miles of commuting . vs a 38 mpg Civic.

john1701a

> the Catalytic convertor goes bad in a Prius

Prove that if an HSD needs that part replaced, which is very unlikely due to the low-sulfur gas being standard now, that it wouldn't be available at other locations.

HSD is planned to be a high-volume production design... 1 million annually by 2010, in fact. That will make replacement components much less expensive.

That is very different from the THS design you keep referring back to, which is what those older Prius were. So naturally, there parts are more expensive... especially for a component that will rarely fail anyway. And it will still work coated with sulfur. It just won't cleanse as well then. The car will continue running.

JOHN

gagrice

Prove that if an HSD needs that part replaced, which is very unlikely due to the low-sulfur gas being standard now, that it wouldn't be available at other locations.

You are the one with all the answers. Where are HSD parts available other than Toyota or Lexus? Does Napa carry the sensors and modules for the Prius? There have already been cases of sensors going bad at a cost to the customer of $600 a pop. Not covered by the hybrid portion of the warranty. Suppose Toyota comes up with a better hybrid idea and HSD is dumped. What then for the few hundred thousand Prius II owners needing parts. You think Toyota will treat the Prius II owners any better than the original Prius owners? Or suppose your worst nightmare becomes reality and Toyota dumps the hybrids in favor of the much simpler diesel engine? You are assuming a lot with all your predictions that are not useful to the people that have already bought into the hybrids and are learning the hard way about being first.

zodiac2004

a lot with all your predictions that are not useful to the people that have already bought into the hybrids and are learning the hard way about being first

You can count on being ragged on when you bring up this point, Gary.
This however is a phenomenon known as "first mover disadvantage".

john1701a

> Why does the Prius catalytic convertor cost 10 times as much as the Camry unit?

It doesn't.

That is *not* true.

The price difference between the ULEV and the SULEV models of Camry is similar.

You cannot compare Prius, which is dramatically cleaner, to the run-of-the-mill Camry. You must compare it to the model that uses the same equipment, the cleaner version of Camry. In other words, I am absolutely correct about that special equipment costing extra money... whether it be a hybrid or diesel. The benefit though with the hybrid is that it is already included in the current price. To clean up diesel to that level, it requires adding to the price.

Remember, the PSD doesn't cost as much as a traditional automatic transmission. So that saving is invested into other components, like those used for cleansing emissions.

JOHN

gagrice

the PSD doesn't cost as much as a traditional automatic transmission

Are you sure about that? One poster had the PSD replaced in his Prius II and the dealer told him the parts cost $11,000. As far as making excuses for the high cost of parts on the Prius. I don't want any car that you cannot go to NAPA and get competitive priced replacement parts. If you are rich enough to own an exotic car, you expect to pay exotic prices. You and most on this board are trying to convince the rest of us that the hybrids are economical. Now you tell us that to get this super clean emissions you have to pay a lot more for replacement parts.

You state that the Prius Catalytic Convertor does not cost 10 times as much as for a Camry or Accord. Do you have a price list you can share with us proving the poster's that had to pay over $2000 were ripped off by the dealers?

You also stated that the car would continue to run fine with the catalytic convertor needing to be replaced. If memory serves me correctly, the catalytic convertor sensor shut the car down or brought in an alarm. That is why they took it into the dealer.

You cannot compare Prius, which is dramatically cleaner, to the run-of-the-mill Camry.

So what you are telling us is get ready to pay through the nose for anything that goes wrong on the Prius after the warranty is no longer in effect? That it WILL cost you more to repair down the road than a Camry. This is the kind of information people would like to know before they buy a hybrid. Can you imagine the shock to the guy that bought the used Prius, when shortly thereafter he is told he has a $2800 catalytic convertor that is not covered under warranty.

One last question. Are all the warranties transferable on the Prius? I was told only the basic 3 yr 36k mile warranty carried to the new owner. Emissions are mandated at 5 yr 50k miles.

john1701a

Afraid to face the reality of what is to come, eh?

Once HSD vehicles are built in much higher volume and built locally, those costs will obviously grow more in line with what we are use to.

It is the normal course of new technology rollout. Prices will naturally drop as time progresses. Get over it.

JOHN

gagrice

Once HSD vehicles are built in much higher volume and built locally

Have you got any information on the Prius being built in the USA? From what I am reading the Prius will be built in China starting before the end of 2005. Probably with the 2006 model.

zodiac2004

PSD costs 11000
Cat Converter costs 2800.

Methinks Toyota's losing a lot of money on each prius sold at 25000.

ruking1

Basic: 3 yr. / 36,000 mi.
Drivetrain: 5 yr. / 60,000 mi.
Hybrid Component: 8 yr. / 100,000 mi.
Roadside: 3 yr. / 36,000 mi.
Rust: 5 yr. / Unlimited mi.

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/toyota/prius/100454051/standardwarranties.html?tid=edmunds- - - .n.prices.pricingbox..1.Toyota*

Something tells me in the finer print to read the even FINER print.

..."It is the normal course of new technology rollout. Prices will naturally drop as time progresses. Get over it. "...

I am already way over it. Despite the possibility of all the non warranty costs I would seriously consider a hybrid new at 12,500.

gagrice

Methinks Toyota's losing a lot of money on each prius sold at 25000

Or making a ton of money on replacement parts. Seems I read an article that added up all the parts on a $20k car, it came to over $100k. It would be interesting to see a parts price sheet for the Prius II. Someone posted one for the Prius Classic. That is were the $4500 traction battery price got started.

zodiac2004

Reminds me of the way some printers are sold.
You buy the printer for 50 bucks and must replace a 20 dollar cartridge for every 10 pages you print.

ateixeira

LOL!

Glad you took that with a good sense of humor.

So basically Cali makes it tough for cars that are more than 10 years old, and basically impossible for new diesels? So if you buy used, make it diesel, if you buy new, it *has* to be gas.

Your tax dollars at work! Call the Governator to complain.

FWIW, when we see clean diesels with urea injection, they'll have the same issues that Toyota is having now, you can bet on that. Perhaps they will benefit from having rolled out the technology in Europe first, so they'll have experience by the time they make it to the US.

Basically, someone else might have paid for that learning curve.

FWIW, the 2005 CR Buying Guide lists the Prius as having "Much Better than Average" for every year they rate it (MY2001, 02, and 03). So sure, we'll see some issues pop up, of course, but they don't appear to be widespread. So your odds of having those major issues are very small.

If they were widespread, we'd see them on these surveys.

-juice

gagrice

I think the finer print is where you get the shaft. I like that part where it says "Hybrid Component: 8Yr / 100,000 mi." Which component is covered?

I'm with you, I got over the hybrid bug a long time ago. Always hopeful that it will mature into something practical. So far it has not. I doubt you will ever see a $12,500 hybrid. Too much red ink to cover up.

I think the media has figured it out also. The hybrids were the darlings until the truth about mileage and TCO became exposed.

Emissions equipment is required by Federal law to be covered for five years or 50,000 miles.

ateixeira

making a ton of money on replacement parts

I'd say that's false.

If it were true, that would show up on the surveys. It hasn't.

-juice

gagrice

they don't appear to be widespread. So your odds of having those major issues are very small.

I'm sure that is true. If you happen to be the unlucky [non-permissible content removed] that buys the one Prius that has a big repair bill, you will consider the whole fleet of that model bad news. One of the more popular threads, discussing the demise of GM, is filled with just that kind of unhappiness. Many would never consider a GM vehicle again because of one bad car. Toyota, up until now has had a good run. Will bad press bring them back to reality? The thing that most attracted me to the original Prius, was the 8 year 100k mile bumper to bumper warranty. As the salesman told me, "Toyota did not want anyone touching the car except them". Full coverage including all service for the warranty period. The car was an even $20k before TTL. Why do you suppose they dropped that dandy warranty. My guess is it was costing them too much to cover the repairs.

ateixeira

More likely they dropped the warranty because it isn't necessary.

Watch, Hyundai will do the same thing. People didn't trust Hyundais, so they'd only buy them with that kind of coverage. Now they are doing well, the 2004 Sonata was CR's most reliable car, period. So they'll drop it soon, watch.

Did VW stop offering the 10/100 powertrain warranty because TDIs were blowing up across the country?

That's the same logic. It's also untrue.

-juice

gagrice

If it were true, that would show up on the surveys. It hasn't.

What do you suppose the percentage of Prius owners have been surveyed? Also they did not sell many Prius Classic. It was not until the Prius II hit the market that they became popular.

I'd say that's false.

You can say it is false. I know for a fact that Lexus charges "a ton of money" for their parts. My Lexus repair man sells me the same Lexus OEM parts for 1/2 what Lexus sells them to me. And I am sure he is still making money. These parts as the Prius parts are not available at Napa. Toyota knows that and charges accordingly.

gagrice

More likely they dropped the warranty because it isn't necessary.

I agree as long as you preface that remark with "It wasn't necessary to sell the cars". No car maker is going to offer more warranty than they have to. For me it was a good reason to try out the new hybrid technology. I figured if Toyota was that sure of the car. I would go for it. Just could not get it past my wife. It was going to be her car.

ateixeira

CR won't publish data if they don't have a big enough sample.

Put it this way - I believe them over any empirical data observed here. By far.

On part 2, I meant that there isn't enough volume of sales (due to the low failure rate), not parts prices, to make that add up to a fortune.

One minute you say there aren't many Prius Classics, the other you say there are enough failure to add up to a fortune.

There are no economies of scale here. They are probably not making a profit at all.

-juice

ateixeira

Same thing will apply for urea-injected diesels. In fact they'll probably go ahead and warranty those because emissions laws will require them to.

Isn't that the sticking point for diesels in Cali? That they require the consumer to actively maintain the emissions system by purchasing urea refills?

-juice

john1701a

> PSD costs 11000

No it doesn't! That's price not cost, which includes special shipping from Japan, labor to take apart virtually everything under the hood, and corporate on-site consulting & inspection.

All that is overhead that won't exist later when a vehicle switches over to high-volume local production... which hasn't happen yet.

Geez! Taking about desperate to find reasons to halt the progress.

JOHN

gagrice

They are probably not making a profit at all

That may be true. To the guy that has to buy a one of a kind part at 10 times the average for the industry, it is devastating. I won't argue the CR report. What do they say about the Prius Classic. Do they mention the fact that people were very upset with Toyota over the one of a kind tires that had to be special ordered at a very high price? I talked to a fellow in the Firestone store that was not a happy Prius owner. He had two of the OEM tires blow out with under 6000 miles on the car.

ateixeira

Don't know enough to answer that, won't other tires fit the rims anyway?

I don't really like low-rolling resistance tires, you give up braking ability for a small gain in efficiency.

-juice

john1701a

Now your on the long-dead topic of tires? There is a list of alternates to choose from now. Owners abandoned the originals a long time ago.

JOHN

zodiac2004

No it doesn't! That's price not cost, which includes special shipping from Japan, labor to take apart virtually everything under the hood, and corporate on-site consulting & inspection.

All that is overhead that won't exist later when a vehicle switches over to high-volume local production... which hasn't happen yet.

Geez! Taking about desperate to find reasons to halt the progress.


Geez! Talk about grasping at straws to vouch for a product with no upside.
I don't care what the actual cost of PSD is. If I need to pay 11000 to get it today, that's what my COST is.
You may feel free to theorize about what the situation will be tomorrow, and be very confident in your assertions that HSD/PSD is the best thing since sliced bread, and the technology is PROGRESS in the automotive world.

I, on the other hand like to live in today's world, where hybrids are over-priced to begin with, and cost an arm and a leg to get replacement parts for.

gagrice

I, on the other hand like to live in today's world, where hybrids are over-priced to begin with, and cost an arm and a leg to get replacement parts for.

That is all I am trying to get out to the buyer. If a person knows in advance that this may be a pricey vehicle to maintain, and still wants it. I think that is good. Like as has been said before it will help with R&D. I have seen a few people come on to this board that were unhappy after the purchase because; what they expected was not what they got, and were treated like second class citizens.

That is one of the reasons for this forum. To inform people about cars they may be interested in buying. The good, the bad & the mileage.

cwbrg

I researched both and owned a VW jetta diesel and I have gone anti-technology as far as cars are concerned. Just a preface, I am a sudo conservationist, all florescent lighting in my home, solar water and pool heater, low water landscape etc.
I have gone back to a 1977 jeep CJ with a big ole V8. I do have mechanical ability so that helps but parts are so inexpensive and matinence is so minor that this makes sense. I get 18MPG average(after re configuring the engine and exhaust)
I have 8K in the entire vehicle after refurbishment, by purchasing a new car that is more fuel efficient (40mpg aqverage) it saves me 110.00 per month in fuel costs.
The insurance alone covers that before we talk about repairs.....or codes that manfactures will not release and you have to have expensive dealer repairs(thats why the VW is gone)

From an environmental front, yes i put our GHG vs. hybrid and diesel but what energy is used in manfacturing,shipping, battery impact when disposed, I say recycle...... mathmatically it makes sence

cwbrg

sense

zodiac2004

This is the kind of conservation I like.
The kind where I get to keep my money in my own pocket instead of some car manufacturer's.

jimlockey

I have a good friend that has a 05 Prius who ask me more and more questions about my 05 Passat TDI more often now and admits his does not get the mileage as advertised. I've been homest about any short comings mine might have. Wonder what kind of short comings he is having.

gagrice

mathematically it makes sense

Environmentally it makes even more sense to keep an older car going. Toyota published a paper showing how a big share of the pollution is in the manufacturing processes. Keep that old one running good.