By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
It's hard to figure the actual BE point because it's a moving target. Fuel prices never stay the same for long.
It's fair to say that as prices trend upward, both hybrid and diesels break even a lot sooner. It's tougher to accomodate the delta in price between gas and diesel, though.
What I casually observe, at least around me, is that gas prices jump up quicker, right away when there is bad news (hurricane, etc). Diesel goes up a little later, but then might stay a little higher for a bit longer.
Dunno, just some empirical data I've gathered.
-juice
Looks like hybrids will remain the popular choice for cost per mile.
Most hybrids significantly cleaner too (SULEV or PZEV).
JOHN
I have seen instances like that in MD. The Chevron is Gaithersburg, MD, had regular gas for $2.99 and diesel was $3.99, but I would not call that typical.
Closer to me, the Shell at Montgomery Mall had regular for $2.89 and diesel for $3.29 last night.
John - what did you go, drive around the country with your camera in hand?
-juice
Today, corner store: October 21, 2005
diesel 3.27
unleaded reg 2.67
= .60 cents per gal difference.
This is probably a reason why they discourage diesel and or results in diesel being priced higher . It has an app 35% better mpg than equivalent gassers. (for the Jetta 49 vs 32 )
This price is also with a passenger vehicle fleet of 2.3-2.9% diesel vs 97.1-97.7 unleaded fuel of the vehicle fleet.
Also unleaded gas CAN NOT currently be refined without a resulting % of diesel (higher carbon fuels)!!!! So in that sense a certain amount of diesel is inherent in the refining of unleaded gas. So in fact diesel is cheaper to refine and also takes less "upstream" resources. So if we connect the dots: higher prices for diesel = higher PROFITS???
My Honda Civic VP gets 37 mpg vs TDI of 50 mpg (same commute to try to get to apples to apples) so cost per mile= .0721621 cents and .0654 cents respectively. Can you imagine how much rocket science it would take to select the cheaper alternative if fuel prices were the same? No small wonder why the oil companies make money like they do, they love their customer's math skills.
Refiners are getting ready for the winter where they expect a 48% rise in the price of home heating oil this winter (HHO=#2 diesel) How much more do you think unleaded regular would cost if homes were heated with unleaded regular?
In addition, if I had gotten a Honda Civic Hybrid (20000), it would still take 2000 dollars to BE against the TDI (18000). Against a Ciivic it would be $7,436 !!!???? So any Civic hybrid owners want to pipe in with real world mpg figures. Mine are (commute) 37-41 mpg Civic, 48-52 mpg TDI.
Plus, 50 sounds a bit optimistic, isn't it more like 45 or so?
-juice
If you choose to think short term as per costs, the upfront excessive cost of hybrids is too expensive. Same is true for diesels, although the price gap is not as large for diesel.
I just paid $3.49 for B20 and I'm not crying about it. My greater concern is the overall damage to the independent truckers, farmers, and other areas of the economy due to high energy prices.
I'm considering the purchase of an Accord hybrid, although it is not to save money. My math skills thankfully are not so poor that I can not calculate ownership cost.
Energy gurus say $2.43 for gas, eh? I bet they're off by a mile.
-juice
Regardless of reason, the price is indeed higher. And by the time it settles back down to whatever the new "normal" will be, talk of the opportunity to purchase a Camry-Hybrid will be a hot topic. With America's most popular car available as a hybrid, the competition against diesel will have increased by a whole level of magnitude.
JOHN
RE: CRD... Now that it has stability control, I will test drive one in PA once they're available. I want to take an extended test drive and see if I can get the mileage some folks are reporting. I sold my 02 Liberty gasser because it was averaging 16mpg. I loved my Liberty, except it was not that stable at high speeds on the highway. That's where the CRV shines.
Plus, 50 sounds a bit optimistic, isn't it more like 45 or so? "
-juice
I think, certainly the oem's really do not want US to compare across models and even trim levels. But my take is (for my .1.75 cents): why would you NOT WANT to do that.
To be honest with you, 50 is ho hum
I also did a longer distance, 1500 miles R/T in the Honda Civic and the overall was 36/37 (36.5) The average speed was considerably slower
Actually I was taken aback by the price differential between the new model year 2006 Honda vs the 2004 Honda. To be honest with you, I am really not sure what it will let us do better in the daily commute, 50 miles R/T. But I know the 2006 Honda Civic would have cost FAR more to do the same job the 2004 is currently handling.
Not any more.
-juice
john1701a does put up an amazing argument. He presents only those facts that support his case. What he does not tell us is that the BE cost takes longer to get in a hybrid. Dozens of articles and posts have shown us that. Next, he does not tell us about that extra 200 odd pounds called a battery pack that gets schlepped around all the time. It is like having a constant passenger in the car. He does not tell us that some refineries that were making diesel are now making gasoline.
Now an excerpt from an Edmund's article:
On the plus side, Americans' interest in buying diesel-powered vehicles is on the rise. It's a popular topic in Edmunds' Town Hall and the rising cost of gasoline makes diesel even more attractive. A recent study by automotive research firm J.D. Power and Associates found that 27 percent of consumers surveyed would choose a clean diesel vehicle if given the choice between traditional gasoline, clean diesel or hybrid electric engine. When given a scenario where fuel prices rose to over $2.50 a gallon, 56 percent of the consumers surveyed said they would choose a clean diesel-powered vehicle versus 38 percent who would choose a hybrid electric vehicle.
I am now in the process of trying to re-locate a British EPA website where you could choose a car by year, engine type and displacement, body style and a few other things and get results information concerning carbon dioxide release in the form of gms/kilometer. As soon as I find it, I will post the URL. I do remember some values. Prius 105g/kilometer, VW Golf was 112 g/kilometer. Diesel engine in the Golf is 1.9 L vs 1.5L for the Prius. There is a Hyundai with a 1.5L three cylinder turbo diesel sold in the U.K. How about 95 gm/kilometer! Same displacement as the Prius. In one or two articles I read about this car, people were getting in excess of 65mpg at 62.5 mph and a bit more than 50 mpg in mixed city-highway, and all that without a fancy drive train. And there was no cost penalty for buying the diesel.
As to his pictures, think about Labor Day weekend folks. In the south and east gas was being rationed. My wife and I drove up I-95 that Sunday and Monday and gasoline was being rationed at 3/4 of the stations. $20.00 of gas at 3.25+/gallon. Diesel was 30 cents less per gallon and was not rationed.
In addition the gas/hybrid is designed to be OFF a lot more than a diesel which is designed to be ON pretty close to 24/7 of its operation: hours, time, distance, etc. So all things being equal if you could shut off the diesel in like amounts as you do the gas hybrid, the diesel/hybrid would have an even GREATER advantage. So given the 60 mpg yardstick on a Prius for example, under like condtions a similar designed diesel hybrid should easily get 37% better or 82.2 mpg.
Per gal, the diesel has 37% more "potential" energy over unleaded gas. Again this is not magic or rocket science, but actually basic chemistry.
Q: How long is the typical loan?
A: Longer than the difference.
> he does not tell us about that extra 200 odd pounds called a battery pack
Spreading misleading information, eh?
The 99 POUND pack sits directly above the back axle.
JOHN
As for loans, some are four year, some are five year and some are six year, so your response has only partial truth to it. Many of the articles talk about five years and not three or four as the BE point.
Civic price = X
Civic Hybrid price= X plus 7,436 dollars!!?? What about 7,436.. MORE is hard to understand?
JOHN
That is your problem, it is not a competition. Neither have to lose. Diesel and hybrids are both energy conserving options. More options are needed, not less.
I agree with you.
There are people who think hybrids are the best thing since sliced bread and there are people who think that diesels are the best thing since sliced bread. They both achieve the same thing, saving fuel. They each do it differently and each has their strong points and their weak points.
However, gas hybrids deliver more...
First, there is plenty of data showing that a "full" hybrid has a fuel-saving advantage over an automatic transmission diesel.
Second, gas hybrids deliver dramatically cleaner emissions (SULEV or better).
JOHN
The regulators and extremist environmental types have only themselves to thank. If similar standards for #2 diesel were enacted during the late 70's when the switch was made from leaded regular to unleaded regular, we would not be in this so called "pickle" that some of the non diesel folks point to about the emissions issues. In fact, the unleaded emissions emitted today have had 27 or so years of so called constant improvement. Hard to fund that kind of progression on the diesel side with only 2.3-2.9% of the passenger vehicle fleet. Indeed higher fuel prices and lower supply and calls to so call "conserve" will make diesel use more viable. If the growth of suvs to 12% of the passenger fleet took app 27 years then indeed it is a ways off. The use of diesel oxymoronically conserves, if a 37% advantage of diesel fuel is any indication vs unleaded regular using 37% MORE.. Environmental math indicates that 37% better fuel mileage is indeed WORSE than 37% less. And we wonder why actual consumption goes UP!!??
Someone do the math - how much more does the TDI weight compared to the 2.slow Jetta or Golf? I bet that 99 lb battery pack is roughly the same.
Gas rationing in the east? Not in the Mid-Atlantic. We took a road trip that weekend and had no problems whatsoever finding gas.
7,436 dollars difference for a Civic hybrid? No way. Not if you compare apples to apples, there's a lot of extra equipment in there.
That's like saying the TDI costs $18 grand more than walking. The TDI has a bit more amenities than a pair of Nikes.
Diesel in Germantown was 287.9 at the Freestate and 2.99.9 at the Chevron on 355
And I'm sure gas was around $2.69-79.
You accuse John of being one sided, and then you do the same thing.
-juice
For the person just looking for an economical car the choice is easy. Buy the basic Civic and save the 7 grand to put in the tank. When they make a basic hybrid for transportation and not to display all their electronic wizardry, they may become popular with the rest of the less affluent car buyers.
So if you are the average American driver with 12,000 to 15,000 miles per year that is 8.4 to 6.72 yrs.
To say that this is not huge is to overlook or gloss over the obvious.
In regards to the weight, here is an interesting anomoly and really it is apples to oranges, but all the more surprising because it is. The weight of the (gasser) 2004 Honda Civic is 2514#s. The weight of the (diesel) VW Jetta TDI is 2950. So the Honda Civic 436#s lighter and gets 37 to 41 mpg vs a (MUCH) heavier Jetta TDI that gets 44-62 mpg.
Off topic a bit, but since I can directly compare side by side: what would the TDI motor, etc. performance be at 436#'s lighter? Care to hazard a guess?
1.8T, 2892#'s, 24/31 mpg
2.0, 2974#'s, 24/31 mpg
1.9T. 2974#s, 42/49 mpg
Again, if one cares to do the math the diesel engine gets 37% BETTER fuel mileage PER GAL. Given the same weight (for practical purposes) the diesel engine is CLEARLY more effective at its task with 37% better fuel efficiency.
This is not to knock VW as it CLEARLY has had the guts to jump through the environmental and regulatory hoops to bring diesel products to a clearly hostile market, but I think it clearly shows how disengenuous the laws are to a clearly superior "alternative" fuel product. People forget the unleaded regular products have had a 27 year R/D jump on the diesel products in this country.
Show me the data on which hybrid 4WD can tow my 4,000 plus pound boat AND obtain better mpg than a diesel.
Second, what good is a hybrid on long trips on the highway when no braking is ocurring? Dead weight of the batterypack and a underpowered engine,WooHoo!
Third, if you are as concerned about emissions or energy conservation as you pretend to be, then why don't you drive a Civix GX? Civic GXLower emissions than Prius and uses NO imported petroleum.
Wow! Undeniable evidence that some have absolutely no idea how a "full" hybrid actually works. Not understanding the competition explains a lot.
A great majority of the electricity in a "full" hybrid comes from the engine, generated while you are cruising down the highway without ever touching the brakes. Some is used to maintain the battery-pack at the ideal level of just under 70 percent of full-capacity. Some is consumed immediately by the second motor.
I very strongly suggest studying the difference between "full" and "assist" hybrids.
JOHN
I also wonder what the auto pundits and normal buyers would have thought of the Prius styling if it were NOT a gas/hybrid, with its attending WOW factors. We already know the Pontiac Aztek is not setting any award winning records or sales number records (unfortunately)
Actually the things I like about the TDI and the Honda Civic gas/ hybrid are both look like (gasser) Jetta's/Golf's (new) Beetles's and Civic's!!
Is the Hybrid perfect, no. But it's a start and if we don't change our habits it is only going to get worse.
Nobody on the diesel side has made any claim to the diesel or the hybrid being perfect. However there are a few hybrid advocates/ users attempting to say it might be the answer to USA oil use and pollution abatement, which is poppycock.
So the 2006 low sulfur diesel will probably be implemented sometime in 2008.
I fail to see the advantage of one over the other. The HCH and Prius II get identical mileage in real world driving. If you like a hatchback go for the Prius. If you like a conventional car the HCH. If you like a station wagon, as I do, get the Jetta TDI wagon. All 3 are in the same mileage range. If you like good handling & high speed cruising, the VW is a no brainer. If you like gadgets the Prius has them. If you are on a tighter budget the HCH is the least expensive.
This initial cost premium for diesel vehicles plus a 43% fuel cost premium don't make financial sense.
Maybe the diesel/gas price ration will change at some point but for now diesel cars are out of the game.
In recent weeks, gasoline and diesel prices have simply gone insane- first, with regular unleaded going for nearly $4/gallon in some areas, then the prices dropping to about $2.42 in recent days, while diesel, which had remained about $2.79 during the Katrina/Rita crises, jumped after the crisis level to its present $3.70/gallon ($3.15/gallon for "exempt").
The reason, as I see it, is simple: when gasoline prices were high, refiners began producing all the gasoline they could; now that the crisis is past, we have a glut of gasoline and a shortage of diesel. Eventually this will work out, diesel prices should drop down to approximately the same as gasoline within a few weeks.
Looking at the long term. diesel will still be more economic.
As far as hybrids are concerned, diesels would be a perfect fit. Even more than gasoline engines, diesels work most efficiently at a constant RPM. BTW I think hybrids are referred to as "series," "parallel," and "series-parallel." I'm not sure what the differences are between a "full" and "assist" hybrid is- is a "full" hybrid one in which both ICE and electric motor provide propulsion (series/parallel hybrid), and is an "assist" one in which the ICE assists the electric motor (parallel hybrid), or one in which the electric motor assists the ICE, or is it one in which the ICE simply charges the battery (series hybrid)? Or is it the other way around?
If the interest in hybrids is in saving money, forget it. You'll not only have to drive the car for 100,000 miles to make up the difference in fuel costs, you need to add in the cost of replacing the battery pack in 3 to 5 years- not cheap. Figure driving another 30,000 miles to recover that cost. While at 130,000 miles a diesel is just barely getting worn in, most gasoline engines are ready to be scrapped.
I like the idea of hybrids, but I'll let others pay for the development costs and buy one when the prices become competitive with conventional ICE models- or until someone develops an affordable hybrid conversion for conventional cars (for example, a kit consisting of a motor and a generator and planetary gearset that bolts in to replace the worn-out conventional transmission, battery pack located in trays fitted under the seats).
If you want to save money on fuel in the long term, AND you want to go "green," consider a diesel vehicle, which can be converted to run on biodiesel or vegoil or waste vegetable oil (WVO, basically used hamburger and french-fry grease). These diesel options are "greenhouse neutral," in that they consume hydrocarbons that came from above the ground. A "green" diesel powering a hybrid should make tree-huggers ecstatic.
I believe a small-displacement turbodiesel would work wonderfully with a CVT. The diesel could run at a more or less constant RPM, while the CVT changes drive ratios, accelerating nearly as well as, perhaps as well as, conventional gasoline-powered models. I'm a bit disappointed that none of the Asian manufacturers have explored this option more enthusiastically (having given up on expecting innovation from domestic car makers some decades ago).
Honda forces you to go to the high-end of the model lineup to get what I consider basic options. So really I'd compare an EX model, at least. Then the difference is tiny - maybe a couple of grand.
Otherwise - why stop there with the cost cutting? Get a used Toyota Echo. Or like I said earlier, a pair of Nikes. Though even some sneakers can cost a scary amount of money.
I'll paraphrase you:
To say that this (difference in equipment level) is not huge is to overlook or gloss over the obvious.
-juice
Because it was slow and grossly inefficient for the power output it delivered. Pathetic, really.
If Wards had a 10 Worst Engines list I bet the 2.slow would be at the top.
So compared to that lousy, slow, grossly inefficient engine, the diesel seems like the Holy Grail. Compared to the 2.slow, the TDI *is* the Holy Grail.
But that's because the 2.slow set the bar soooo low.
So?
So that makes the Break Even point come sooner that it seemingly should.
Meanwhile, the Civic's gas engines are very efficient, top of their class. So the Civic Hybrid is being compared to a very high standard.
One might argue if you want a Jetta, the TDI is the better powertrain period. Overall, not just economically.
VW/Audi has better gas engines in Europe, the 1.8T had a non-turbo variant that would run circles around the 2.slow, it just never made it to the Jetta.
-juice
Of all the ABS equiped vehicles I have (4) , the only time I engage ABS is to TEST it. Despite what you may have heard about ABS, it does NOT or CAN not over come the laws of physics.
So a tiny difference between?
I also would agree with you that a used car 1-5 years old is the best. The real question: would folks actually buy used hybrids 1-5 years old.
Almost all oems force one to the higher end of the line up to get probably what you consider basic options. I am glad I didnt have to go there for this Honda Civic VP.
I'm not going to turn this into a debate about ABS. Suffice it to say, a car without ABS is certainly not the equivalent of the well equipped HCH.
You might argue that you think Honda loaded up the HCH with too many options, then fine. But you can't call the VP model an even swap, not to 99% of the consumers out there.
-juice
And yes I consider the Civic's engines if I can use the term close to bullet proof. So yes, I directly compared the Honda Civic's mpg to the TDI's mpg and also the 2.0 and 1.8T. So compared to other VW's BE is much lower. Compared to a Civic VP, the BE is really more like 300-400k.
So really this is where the hybrid really hits a wall. So if one wanted to compare a 20k HCH to a 18k VW Jetta TDI, the difference of 2k might be recoverable, but barring HCH realistic figures, I will with hold running the numbers till I hear some.
..."You might argue that you think Honda loaded up the HCH with too many options, then fine. But you can't call the VP model an even swap, not to 99% of the consumers out there. "
You might have misread my past posts. I have said that when I was in the market (2004 model)the cost to me was 20k. So the real question at the time and still apllicable now: what would $ 7,436.00 have bought me for my stated purpose, a plain vanilla commute? I suggested one, 100-115k miles of gas for the commute.
Most of the people here don't either. That's why the constructive criticism has been pretty much impossible. There are dramatic differences between those two types of hybrids. Operation is fundamentally unique, so different it is completely inappropriate to lump them together into a single group.
Basically, it would be like calling a gas & diesel engines the same thing... which we all know is totally inappropriate. Yet, people attempt to do that to "full" and "assist" hybrids all the time.
JOHN
A Prius Taxi
And it was moving right along too...after we got past the slow patch where I snapped the pic, I set my cruise control at 75 and the Prius was gaining distance on me. A good long distance taxi maybe.
Wow! Undeniable evidence that some have absolutely no idea how a "full" hybrid actually works. Not understanding the competition explains a lot.
A great majority of the electricity in a "full" hybrid comes from the engine, generated while you are cruising down the highway without ever touching the brakes. Some is used to maintain the battery-pack at the ideal level of just under 70 percent of full-capacity. Some is consumed immediately by the second motor.
I very strongly suggest studying the difference between "full" and "assist" hybrids.
JOHN
Hmm... a full hybrid can obtain 51 mpg hwy and an assist can obtain 50 mpg hwy.
There is no benefit to having complexity for the sake of complexity.
Eliminate the generator, eliminate the battery pack, eliminate the electric motor, eliminate the low performance tires, and how can you obtain 50 mpg hwy? Well, my Jetta Wagon TDI 2002 was EPA rated at 50 mpg hwy, however it actually obtained greater than 50 mpg.
With the hybrid you have a vehicle that has very expensive replacement components that can only be repaired at the dealer. You do however have the joy of a high upfront purchase cost with the hybrid.
Does Toyota sell more hybrids or diesels worldwide? Answer, hint, hint, does not start with an h.
Does Honda sell more hybrids or diesels worldwide? They sell more diesels.
And neither Honda nor Toyota offer diesels in US.
Diesel is a more cost effective technology. It is so simple that you are unable to comprehend it.
Plus people tend to overlook other hybrid benefits:
* lower emissions
* greater range (I find this one critical)
* $2000 tax deduction
* HOV lane access
* silence at idle
* low rpm torque from the electric motor
Hard to quantify what those are worth to you, but tangible benefits nonetheless.
Note that a diesel would also enjoy two of those (torque and range).
-juice
Figures the Detroit Free Press would say that. I bet they drove it as hard as possible to obtain a desired result.
Note they don't show any concrete evidence, not even posting real-world fuel economy of the non-hybrids for comparison.
The article is incompete and extremely biased.
Here is the only single paragraph that makes a valid point:
While Toyota has a stable of fuel-efficient cars, including the hybrid Prius, it also makes the Land Cruiser SUV (17 m.p.g. on the highway); Sequoia SUV (18 m.p.g.); 4Runner SUV (21 m.p.g.), and Tundra Double Cab (18 m.p.g.). Those vehicles have helped lower Toyota's overall fuel economy.
-juice