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Comments
Insofar as the greater range, I really didn't get to fully test that in that I was mindful that both were new cars and while appreciative of the fact I could have put 1000 miles on each car.... well I didn't.
Range is great on the TDI. It actually took my wife several thousand miles to truly get used to this. With a 50 mile R/T daily commute it is cool to fill only twice to less than twice per mo. At 50 mpg the range is 700 miles with .5 gal to spare. (25 miles to hunt for the next station if need be.
CA, I have read is only prepared to do the first 75,000 hybrids for single pilot use. I would not be surprized if they require a fee.
As for the 2000 tax credit, I say neat! It actually should be applied to TDI's also. But in fact I get better tax credits investing in the oil sector.
To me that's a biggie. With massive range like that, you have 2-3 weeks of driving. It also gives you a ton of time to find cheaper gas. So you can fill up when you have a half tank if you find cheap gas, and still have 300+ mile range. I do that now but it's usually 160-180 miles or so to be worth it.
That's a huge benefit to me because I live where gas is extremely expensive. My wife also hates filling up, so I often fill up her tank. Having to stop often is an inconvenience.
In the news today - AN has an article about Honda supposedly bringing diesels to the US, though they have to overcome some emissions obstacles.
-juice
One cashier even came bolting out of his bullet proof cage to "keep me" from putting diesel in my tank.
All in all, folks stop by to chat when they see my "gasser" pull in front of the green handled #2 diesel pump.
I do sometimes pull into truckers slots, but the high flow pump can be a bit weird to regulate.The last time I did that the cashier came out to pump it himself. So this TDI has been an interesting conversational ice breaker.
The nozzle in general is wider, isn't it? I don't think it even fits in a gasoline fuel mouth opening, does it?
-juice
That gross generalization means nothing.
Look at non-highway cruising data, especially stop & slow commute driving and when the A/C running. The FULL hybrid outperforms the competition by an undeniable margin.
The FULL hybrid also provides a future platform to build upon, like offering a plug-in option, increased battery capacity, or a fuel-cell supplement. Neither the ASSIST hybrid or a non-hybrid diesel can offer that.
It is rather blatant that people are not being objective, by choosing only data that serves their purpose. Considering future/aftermarket enhancements and all types of driving that people have to deal with makes the FULL hybrid a true winner.
JOHN
Look at non-highway cruising data, especially stop & slow commute driving and when the A/C running. The FULL hybrid outperforms the competition by an undeniable margin.
"The FULL hybrid also provides a future platform to build upon, like offering a plug-in option, increased battery capacity, or a fuel-cell supplement. Neither the ASSIST hybrid or a non-hybrid diesel can offer that.
It is rather blatant that people are not being objective, by choosing only data that serves their purpose. Considering future/aftermarket enhancements and all types of driving that people have to deal with makes the FULL hybrid a true winner. "
Actually one kernel of truth I see in your statements is that the hybrid is NOT the plug and play as you infer is FAR superior, which would tend to minimize finanancial disadvantages described in prior posts. But even if they were plug and play, you still would need to compare it against the more conventional options. Is that why there is such a movement to limit the options one can compare them against; i.e., kill the diesel by regulation? Again this is disengenuous to speak of alternative fuels when there is a concerted shadow effort to actually limit or ban alternative fuels.
So let me state the obvious that the operation of the Hybrid AND the DIESEL is permitted and LAWFUL under FED CA state and local environmental laws.
So if we do a quick and dirty HCH BE against a VP, the HCH CLEARLY gets 8 mpg BETTER !! (46-38=8 mpg) So using $2.70 per gal unleaded and $2.97 #2 diesel and 18,000 miles per year (the commute I am servicing, plus 5k other than commute miles) between 46 mpg and 38 mpg there is a fuel saivings of :
83 gal and $224.10 per year
6.92 gal per mo, $18.68 per mo.
So the good news is that the HCH CAN definitely BE against the VP. !!!!
The other news? that would take 33.181615 YEARS.
($7,436.00/ $ 224.10 saved per year=33.181615)
This might be one reason why the Honda Civic gasser is reputed to be one of the thriftiest gassers around.
As you can see also, the HCH (20k) will not break even against the TDI (18k) on fuel mileage 46 vs 48. to make up the -2,000 difference.
Simply dismissing the following isn't the slightest bit constructive or objective:
49 MPG is the EPA city estimate for the 2006 Civic-Hybrid.
60 MPG is the EPA city estimate for the 2004-2006 Prius.
Yet, that previous post did anyway.
JOHN
You can't get a new TDI for $18K anymore. The lowest priced car that VW offers it in is the GLS Golf, and the lowest possible price for the 2006 GLS Golf TDI is $20K.
It has gotten very difficult to even find a VW TDI on the dealers lots. They are selling as fast as they get them. For as much as $2000k over MSRP. That leaves me out. I would not pay MSRP for any car on the planet. My wife wants a Gecko Green Beetle TDI when I sell the Passat TDI. I don't think I will find one. I keep checking though.
Nor can I get the (2004) Honda Civic for what I paid anymore! (min of 3811 more) But again, if the 2006 TDI is 20k in the form of a GLS Golf, AND if the Honda Civic 2006 hybrid is 22.4k (TMV on Edmunds) you can also see the HCH will not break even on the mpg alone.
Even I must admit that three model years later and app 70k on the clock; to be able to sell the 2003 TDI USED for MORE than I paid NEW is a pleasant shock. I probably should take it to the bank by selling it, but I really do not have much of a desire to pony up to the MB E320 CTDI. (would have to buy used or buy new out of state anyway) I actually was quite pleased taking the TDI cross country 6200 miles R/T : Nor CA to MidSouth FL and return. I have taken a 1600 mile R/T N/S and return and while the Civic was an absolute trooper, and I was very pleased with its cross country performance; as an afterthought would have much preferred taking the TDI.
Looks like Honda believes that both diesels and hybrids are needed.
Kinda like the Prius, huh Gary? Maybe VW should "ramp up the production if they REALLY want to sell the TDIs !!"
(sound familiar?)
Boy, I hope they don't until I get 7500 miles on my Passat TDI and sell it at a profit. My understanding is VW cannot keep up with EU sales of the TDI. They are still the biggest car maker in Europe. They were number one in China until GM beat them out this year. The other side of the coin is similar to the hybrids. Last Spring the VW dealers were selling TDIs at invoice or below just as many of the hybrids. Gas takes a little jump and the fickled US public jump on the high mileage bandwagon. When gas drops the tide will turn again. No different than back in the 1970s & 80s.
If Honda brought their Accord 2.2 CDI from Europe, it would probably sell astronomical numbers. According to a British web site, it gets 38 mpg city, 52 highway with 200 lb ft of torque and 140 horsepower. I would likely trade in my Jetta TDI for one of those!
Rumor has it that several automakers are considering bringing their diesel engines to the states, but focusing on their luxury brands - such as Audi, BMW and Mercedes. We will see...
As far as Hybrids vs diesels - I think hybrids win in NY, Boston, DC, San Fran - and other large congested cities. In places like San Antonio, where I live, diesels tend to do better at the current level of technology. Despite the fact that diesels are probably superior in most of the "real world" of U.S. freeway driving, hybrids still must be part of the solution - since our future fuel cell cars will basically be "electric vehicles". The internal combustion engine will be obsolete at some point - hopefully sooner rather than later, and the hybrid gets that technology moving forward.
Look at non-highway cruising data, especially stop & slow commute driving and when the A/C running. The FULL hybrid outperforms the competition by an undeniable margin.
The FULL hybrid also provides a future platform to build upon, like offering a plug-in option, increased battery capacity, or a fuel-cell supplement. Neither the ASSIST hybrid or a non-hybrid diesel can offer that.
This is where you have to be careful with John's posts... he doesn't mention that the new Honda assist hybrids (and the older Accord hybrid) can power the A/C with the engine off, and the new Civic can drive without using any fuel. And that an assist hybrid could work with a fuel-cell engine.
Is an assist hybrid better than a full hybrid? That remains to be seen. It's undoubtedly less complex. And if I had a HCH, rather than a Prius, I wouldn't have been stuck on the side of the road twice.
It is only *partial* A/C, low power only.
> the new Civic can drive without using any fuel
The engine still spins, and it is very low-speed and very short-distance only.
> an assist hybrid could work with a fuel-cell engine.
Actually, it cannot as currently designed. The motor doesn't have a cooling system, like HSD does. That means not much more than what's already available is possible. Anything beyond that would cause the system to overheat.
.
And once again, it needs to be pointed out that the ASSIST design only has a passive electrical system. That means far less electricity is available in the first place.
JOHN
That standardized testing was created to point out differences, for comparison... just like this.
11 MPG cannot simply be dismissed.
JOHN
The reason people dismiss the difference between the Prius & HCH EPA estimates, is the Prius does not come close to the EPA estimate. You know as well as anyone that the HCH comes closer in real life to reaching the EPA estimates. For someone that should be an advocate of all hybrid technology, you spend a lot of time dismissing anything that is not Toyota based. I understand your dislike of the simple diesel solutions, why do you dislike the well designed Honda solutions?
$25k for a Prius vs. $16k for a Corolla (or Matrix if you insist on a hatch), and you'll simply never break even.
Who knows how VW will price the next TDI lineup. Should be interesting. I think even if it does only carry an $800 difference compared to a 2.5l model, the actual price paid will differ by much more than that. At this price level, a 2.5l model at invoice could be discounted by about $2 grand even before rebates.
You have to time the purchase well.
-juice
And once again, it needs to be pointed out that the ASSIST design only has a passive electrical system. That means far less electricity is available in the first place.
Also, you consistently ignore my pleas to document the electrical capacity of both the Honda and Toyota systems. So I have to use your familiar mantra, at least if you're going to continue to beat this horse, show me the data.
Need facts from all sides, not just one.
That is *not* true.
You know quite well that I am in favor of any FULL hybrid technology and have routinely praised Ford for also using that design in their hybrids.
JOHN
What does that have to do with comparing estimates?
The identical tests were performed. One hybrid scored dramatically higher than the other.
Don't pretend that difference doesn't exist, because the results clearly shows it does.
JOHN
Where is your data?
> I believe the electric motor on the Civic is cooled by the engine.
Again, proof is needed. I have never seen specs that show a liquid cooling system specifically for the motor like Prius has.
JOHN
start with this
Your turn to provide something constructive.
JOHN
Your turn to provide something constructive.
Your document was unintelligible. Show me something that shows current flows, power capacities, and charts this over a 10 minute drive. You're the one arguing that a Full Hybrid is better, Show Us The Data!
http://tinyurl.com/9wqge
Not to mention setting 19 world speed records during the same test cycle...
They put it in the CR-V, too.
-juice
They put it in the CR-V, too.
If this car make it to NA in its present form, it will represent a quantum jump in terms of what we have today. It will force Toyota and others to follow suit.
Once those cars are out, I'm willing to bet that they will have a lower TCO by atleast 25% to comparable gas/hybrid cars.
Then people in NA will also know why diesel is a better solution than band-aided hybrids.
Maybe they should call it the NCDs (No Compromise Diesels).
I have completely sworn off new cars, since I believe they are way overpriced from a value proposition standpoint, but the iCDti would make a compelling case to buy new.
http://tinyurl.com/daa3t
A diesel hybrid is kind of an interesting thought but I feel it is not needed. The new diesels make lots of torque at very low rpms. On gassers, especially the small four bangers, torque is produced at fairly high rpms and there tends not to be much of it. That is what makes an electric assist motor so attractive on a gasser. Electric motors generate max torque at zero rpm and it drops to almost nil around 1200 rpm (as I understand their use in a Prius). The gas engine does not kick in until the driver has reached a certain speed. Conceptually attractive, but overly complex. As I also understand it, the electric motor(s) assist the gas engine even when under way. Now the engine is doing triple duty. It is moving a vehicle, turning a generator that recharges a battery pack (99 lbs of dead weight) and turning that same generator to supply the electric motor(s) with power. Just simply too messy for my taste. I am a KISS person, that is why I like diesel. Nothing complicated with comparable economy, comparable or lower greenhouse emissions, for a lot less money than a hybrid like the Prius.
A diesel hybrid is kind of an interesting thought but I feel it is not needed. The new diesels make lots of torque at very low rpms. On gassers, especially the small four bangers, torque is produced at fairly high rpms and there tends not to be much of it.
Winter2,
We have very similar opinions regarding diesel engines. I'm well aware of the European VW PD TDIs.
The TDI's biggest drawback in NA is that it's made by VW. A Honda diesel would wipe the floor with the VWs in terms of quality and reliability. It would be very tough to make a case to buy any other car, barring a Toyota diesel. They would take everything positive that Honda and Toyota have achieved in NA, while significantly lowering operating costs. A combination other manufacturers would find almost impossible to beat.
Another reason why diesels won't benefit much from hybridization is the diesel consumes very little fuel when idling/not loaded. It consumes 250ml/hr of idling, and when coasting in gear (feet off pedal), it consumes no fuel. No need to tamper with such an efficient and bulletproof powerplant with complicated electronics.
Ford did not rebadge HSD, they merely licensed some patents.
-juice
I like the diesel in my Liberty CRD, a V.M. Motori (Italian) engine. Chrysler has been using them for years in europe. It is simple, tough and gets me a bit more than 29 mpg on open highway driving at 60 - 65 mph. Not bad for a 4300+ lb car with the aerodynamics of a cinder block. 2.8L DOHC 16 valve, 295 lb-ft of torque at 1800 rpm with 80+% available from 1400 - 3200 rpm. At 60mph, tachometer shows only 1700 rpm. I wonder how fast the engine turns over on a Prius or HCH at 60mph?
-juice
Hopefully that is changing. I am happy so far with the Passat TDI. I would consider the CRV with the Honda diesel. It sounds like it is a great little powerplant. I believe the dynamic of the cars we drive will change radically once the manufacturers overcome the roadblocks assembled for diesel cars. If Europe can do it we can do it.
-juice
4.56:1 gearing which is really low.
You want short gears? The gas CR-V 5 speed is 4.77:1!
-juice
Looked at some Escape Hybrid articles. Pretty good for city driving, not so good for open road. I work from home so rush hour is meaningless to me. I take public transport if I go downtown and generally travel fairly long distances. $3400 premium for the hybrid.
Did note that the batteries are wired in series. That is unsettling. if one fails, then the rest will be taken out too. Kind of like the christmas light effect. One bad bulb and good luck finding it.
Still uses gasoline, a non-renewable item. Suppose you can use E10. Helps a little.
Why bother?
You didn't.
JOHN
You didn't.
I'm not the one making claims. You are. The burden of proof is on you.
Really? Reread the posts. You'll see claims that you made without providing any proof... like the A/C efficiency.
So to reiterate, here's my standing:
Diesels (non-hybrid) simply are not competitive enough to satisfy the majority. The automatic transmission (which 90% of the US population prefers) do not deliver efficiency as high as the "full" hybrid. This difference is especially well pronounced for those having to deal with stop & slow commutes. And to achieve the PZEV emission rating, even with low-sulfur diesel, the added cost for the cleansing equipment wipes out any remaining monetary argument in favor of diesel.
Assist hybrids have a fundamental shortcoming. Adding a "separating clutch" and a cooling system to enable greater electric propulsion abilities is possible, but that would add to the cost making them even less competitive. But the big problem comes from when you consider where the heck would the needed electricity come from. Without a second motor and a persistent electrical system, all you get is assist... hence the name. The design simply wasn't intended to deliver more than just passive electrical abilities.
JOHN