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Comments
Some people enter calculated mileage while others enter mileage from the car computer display. I have a mileage computer feature in my CRD. I have seen has high as 38mpg, but that was going 52 mph, coasting down a slight grade for several miles.
As to your real world mileage, I can see the 44 mpg and can easily believe low to mid-fifties. I have been there and done that myself in the early eighties. Sixty-two is probably doable, but I would have to see it. "...
I think your above quote makes a strong case for leaving the EPA estimates alone. Again most folks simply ask what is real world (what is any archtypical driver getting). The of course you project what ones individual figures will be.
This to me is more useful and usable than saying I get between 4-33 mpg. I have never gotten anything under 22 even in heavy heavy traffic. I have gotten 32 but in truth that was about as exciting as watching paint dry. (as a base line EPA 19/28 mpg)
To me, the real issue is "the Emperor has been wearing no clothes for a good while" Case in point: HUGE % variance in the Prius vs others such as TDI/HCH.
Now John, don't be misleading like this. You know the EPA only starts with a warm engine for Highway tests, because people have to drive (typically) to get to a highway entrance. CITY tests are done with a cold engine.
I compare real-world to real-world.
I compare EPA to EPA.
There is no crossing over as you imply, so differences pointed out are geniune.
.
> so what if the Prius gets more mpg
The highest MPG (while also delivering SULEV or better) is the point.
It does matter. Why is energy conversion a factor if the outcome is higher anyway?
JOHN
-juice
-juice
Duh!
That's why I don't cross compare. Those claims that I do are totally bogus.
Boy, the entertainment value of these posts is top-notch. Hearing statements that the energy conversion is more important that the actual resulting MPG is great. Ha!
Combustion engines are one of the poorest choices for energy utilization anyway. Electric motors are much better choice. And "full" hybrids are only just beginning to take advantage of that. Later, they'll be using the engine even less and just keep the electricity as electricity (via a plug) rather than doing any conversion in the first place. Try that with an "assist" or non-hybrid.
JOHN
Glad you are starting to come around to what I have been saying all along. Also as I have said almost every oem has a diesel option, that gets better fuel mileage that the comparable gasser model. All of these are essentially off the shelf technologies. There are cars on the road in Europe as we speak that make the Prius, TDI and the HCH , as good of mileage they do get , look like fuel guzzlers! AND these are SUB $12k CARS!!!!
I also like cost per mile and also not having to front 7400 dollars or so more for the privilege too.
So what is plugging your car in going to solve?. So where are we going to get that electricity? From some stinky coal fired plant? What about a gas or oil fired plant? More greenhouse gases and other pollutants. More wasted energy. You will still pollute, one way or another.
Those losses are that you poo-poo are significant. Look at the up front financial loss. Simply cannot be justified.
With the state of the art in batteries where it is today, practical plugin hybrids are "Pie In the SKY". They are as far from realistic as the hydrogen fuel cell. Maybe in 10 years. As crappy as the Prius handles today, can you imagine another 300 lbs of battery. With the current parameters of usage, 20 to 80% of the capacity, 300 more lbs of battery would be lucky to carry you 15 miles. You would need close to 1000 lbs of battery to get any decent range from the plugin Prius. Going with new lightweight diesel technology is the answer to our fossil fuel usage.
Only PART of that statement is correct. :shades:
The CalCar plug-in Prius is REAL and is on the road TODAY. Here is the site for more details.
http://www.calcars.org/priusplus.html
The "impractical" part of the situation is the added cost - about $12,000 per Prius at last count.
So it is "doable" today, meaning it is not "pie in the Sky" but the costs are prohibitive.
And about this comment:
"As crappy as the Prius handles today, can you imagine another 300 lbs of battery."
The Plugin Prius would be a COMMUTER CAR, not a RACE CAR. Handling is LOW on the list of priorities when you talk to new car buyers. I got over the thrill of taking a 55 MPH curve at 80 MPH about the same time I had kids.
I have studied the Edrive systems at length. I cannot see how in the next ten years they will become feasible. Battery technology seems fairly stagnant for the last several years. Lithium Ion has a whole new set of drawbacks for use as automotive batteries. As close as I can tell they are planning to try and sell the system with Lead acid or NiMH batteries. Then you read the fine print that says the system as it has been tested can only go 10 miles at 34 MPH. That is golf cart speed. Why bother? As a commuter for CA it has to be capable of battery operation at freeway speeds of at least 65 MPH. I don't think it is close to that yet. Give them 10 years then Maybe if they find investors. If you are very interested in the research you should dump a few million into getting them off the ground. They will need a lot of money when they go to market and get past the EPA. This will change the safety dynamics of the Prius considerably. I applaud them for their effort. I still think it is "PIE in the SKY"
Nope.
I still disagree.
Installing systems like HSD into new models of popular vehicles is the plan and always has been. People buy whatever they have always preferred, only it is cleaner and more efficient.
Downgrading to an economy class car to achieve higher MPG is a compromise that's unacceptable.
JOHN
In another separate issue,I was able to get both technical briefing and rides in the Stanford University's DARPA entry to the remotely piloted diesel VW Tourareq before the "race off" . This entry happened to win the Mojave Desert remote "race." Many articles have been written about this effort.
http://www.darpa.mil/grandchallenge/
I still disagree.
Installing systems like HSD into new models of popular vehicles is the plan and always has been. People buy whatever they have always preferred, only it is cleaner and more efficient.
Downgrading to an economy class car to achieve higher MPG is a compromise that's unacceptable"...
Not many folks have issues with folks (like you) paying more for essentially less. What issues they might have: if folks( like you foist it) on the mass market in the guise of "regulation/s". Even in CA they will place a limit on how many hybrids can use the commute lanes solo.
It is disengenuous when democratic leaders such as an elected leader (seen on CNBC today) from the State of New York supports higher fuel prices and then when he gets them, complains loudly that now the oil companies needs to be investigated and possibly taxed more!!?? So now the position is reversed from make em pay higher per gal prices to drive, to : gee, energy is a right not a privilege now. : (
There we finally agree. That is the reason I don't see the Prius in my future. It is a downgrade from all the vehicles I have ever owned. Get me into a full sized PU that gets 35 MPG and can pull a 5000 lb trailer and you got something. Do I believe that is possible with HSD? Not only NO, but positively NO! Honda has got it right. hybrid for the small cars diesel for the bigger vehicles. The Prius is one of the "In-betweener" vehicles. Too small and uncomfortable for long trips where a Suburban is superb. Too big for an errand car where most of the trips are 2-3 miles. It is like my Passat without good handling. Not practical IMO, at least for my taste. Compromises I am unwilling to make to save a few bucks on fuel.
Prius's have great cachet at political cocktail parties, but I don't attend too many of those anymore.
I don't eat that part of the chicken :shades:
And that, right there, is the Prius in a nutshell. IT's got the room of a Passat, great milage, but with horrible handling, a god awful interior design, and ergonomics that are... bad. I should have never traded my VW in for a Prius.
-juice
$2.65 today in Indiana, and it was $3.19 on Sunday.
Looks like hybrids will remain the popular choice for cost per mile.
JOHN
Remember my reply in post 512 - "The spike in diesel prices is short term'
Hybrids are STILL not cost competitive and John is still a poor analyst of the present and poor predictor of the future.
Should supplies of gasoline get low or unavailable during a crisis, the diesel driver can easily stock up on biodiesel stored in plastic containers in their garage or yard. It is, after all, a partially renewable resource. If a true 70's style gas crunch returns, I plan on buying a 100 gallon tank and having one of the local biodiesel distributors fill it up. By my calculations, that would give me 4 months of daily driving in my Jetta TDI! Check out this article about folks down in Miami after Wilma - paying $20 for a gallon because no one had gas:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002587354_webwilma27.html
By the way, diesel is down to 2.99 in San Antonio vs 2.50 for unleaded regular. Of course, for several weeks during August & September, it was 30 cents cheaper than regular.
I traded in a 2004, F-150 Crew Cab 4x4 with a 4.6 and nicely appointed for a 2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Sport, somewhat nicely appointed. There was a $2k difference (about) in the trade. Here was why:
-First, I drive 25k a year. Even at a $.30 difference in price (which is more of an averaged normal that is a little more realistic than the difference right now at $.80), I clear over $1k/year in fuel alone.
-being honest with myself, I need a truck once a month. I have access to a trailer. The jeep can pull 5k# and can carry over 1k# This is more than what I did with the F-150
-Jeep payments are less per month
-Jeep insurance is less (haven't figured this one out yet, probably because of the MSRP)
-My wife was afraid to drive the truck . She likes to drive the jeep. This could be good or bad...
-I can actually get out of the Jeep in the two car garage which held the truck and Villager (was making payment on house and truck and could not get in or out of either
Drawbacks?
-I liked to throw my muddy & stinky boots/clothes in the bed of the truck (once a month +/-)
-truck was much quieter
-road like a dream
-my 4 year old fell in love with it
So, the decision was lopsided and there were drawbacks but I still have a vehicle that is fun to drive, gets better gas mileage, will tow anything I want it to tow and go anywhere I have any business going. That's why I made the switch from larger to smaller and gas to diesel.
What say you?
quote -Jean-Martin Folz, chief executive of PSA Peugeot Citroen, which currently manufactures diesel engines in a joint venture with Ford, questioned the commercial prospects of hybrid vehicles.
"They do not have long-term economic prospects because they are a lot more expensive to produce [than diesel engines] with the same results," he said-end
:P
The shellacking is directed more at the Prius opinions of one or two individuals than it is at the actual Prius.
I don't have a problem with hybrids as long as they are not subsidized by tax cuts or otherwise subsidized by government and allowed in carpools lanes when there is only one occupant of the vehicle. Let the hybrids succeed or fail on their own merit. Special treatment by government should be reserved for minority's and the poor.
http://www.edrivesystems.com/Edrive-FAQ.html
Q5: What is the driving experience like with an EDrive equipped Prius?
A: After the nightly re-charge, the vehicle can be driven in EV mode until the vehicle speed exceeds 34mph. At this point the engine may start in order to warm up the emission control system. After the emission system is warmed up, the Prius will use the gasoline engine whenever higher speeds or power levels are needed, but will always (for the first 50-60 miles) inject electricity to reduce gasoline consumption. It is possible to drive in EV mode at speeds over 34mph and up to 55mph if the power requirements are low enough. The dashboard mounted display will always tell you if you are using gasoline and if not, how far you can press the accelerator without turning the gasoline engine on. In low speed city driving and 55mph freeway driving it is possible to average over 200mpg. More aggressive driving over 65mph will lower the efficiency to 100mpg or less. For example, 75mph freeway driving could result in less than 80mpg. During the 50-60 mile boost period, the Prius battery display will show either 7 or 8 green bars (ie full). After the boost mode, the display (and vehicle performance) will be identical to a standard Prius.
Q6: Why the big difference between 55mph and 75mph?
A: Because of the configuration of the Prius, electric use is limited to 21kW and often less. At speeds over 34mph, the electrical contribution is more or less constant. You may find at 55mph that 1/4 of the power is coming from gasoline and 3/4 from electricity, but at 75mph the contribution may be 2/3rd gas and 1/3rd electric. Even though the electric contribution is the same in both cases, the gasoline contribution (and thus mpg) can be dramatically different.
Q7: Can I really get over 200mpg with EDrive on my Prius?
A: Yes, but it requires low speeds (55mph freeway) and mild acceleration in city driving. Most Prius EDrive users will likely get closer to 100mpg.
OK, so if you read that correctly, it says:
1. 200 MPG is possible at 55 MPH freeway speeds and low speed city driving.
2. It's not a golf cart at all - it's a fully operational normal Prius with EXTRA BATTERY CAPACITY to make it drive in EV mode longer and more effectively.
My personal commute is about 10 miles one way, ALL city streets, with speed limits no greater than 45 MPH. I'd be willing to bet that there are a few hundred thousand people in the USA who have a similar commute.
For people like that, who want a car ONLY for a commute in low speed city driving, the Plug-in Prius is almost the perfect solution in regard to the MPG they will be able to achieve.
Say the average driver does get 100 MPG with this modification. I'm not saying it is impossible. The person that just keeps his Prius stock can drive 200,000 miles on the $12k he saves, if gas remains at $3 per gallon. So there is never going to be a BE point with this modification. NO ONE on this forum has shown proof that batteries will come down in price. So how can the Edrive ever be anything but a novelty for the wealthy techno-geek? You also ignored the fact that making any modification to the weight distribution in a car changes the handling characteristics and may require EPA approval. Emergency personnel are somewhat fearful of the batteries in the hybrids to start with. Now you triple the battery size and potential for shock hazard. Give me some logical practical reason for this modification.
That said, if Toyota or any other auto manufacturer were to build a plug-in hybrid I would be more inclined to give it credence.
No one in the history of buying cars has bought a car, kept it until it became economically unfeasible to repair, then made any money on that purchase. Cars decline from new price to (in some cases) zero dollars. It's a "lose-lose" situation even buying ANY kind of car.
But as long as you are GOING TO HAVE A CAR PAYMENT ANYWAY, you might as well have a vehicle that costs less to fuel and to operate.
My last tank in my HCH lasted me 31 days and went 700 miles. Cost me $32 in gas for the month. That's the kind of low operating costs I want. I'm always going to have a car payment anyway.
That thinking is a big part of the problem in this country. I do not buy a car until I have saved enough cash to buy it. Giving money a lending institution is no different than to the oil companies. Rich people own both. That is a false economy. The interest on a $20k car is 3 times what you spent for gas. Where did you save anything with that logic?
That's just a rare thing, so paying interest on a car loan cannot be considered illogical. To me, it's just another mandatory cost of living, just like mortgage interest, credit card interest, bank fees, ATM fees, etc etc. Welcome to "living paycheck to paycheck" USA.
That's like asking the president of a fan club what he thinks about his idol.
It's marketing-speak. Might even be true, but it certainly doens't mean anything coming from that source.
Next, we ask Subaru's CEO what he thinks of AWD. Stay tuned.
-juice
-juice
I'm Carless Joe and I need to buy a new car, and I'm considering a Honda Civic. Oh, they have a hybrid version of it! I've read a lot of stuff on the Edmunds forums saying that they're great. So I go to the vehicle detail pages and look at the specs and pricing. I want the best mileage I can get and like everyone, don't want to spend more than I have to.
So I look to compare the non-hybrid DX model with the 5 speed and the HCH. TMV pricing on the DX in my area is $14,995 and on the HCH is $22,400, a difference of $7,405. I've got a friend at the bank
The EPA numbers on the HCH are 50/50 city/hwy and on the DX are 30/38. Wow... I could be getting 50 mpg vs 30mpg!! And driving about 15,000 miles per year, I bet that the extra cost of the hybrid is going to be covered with no problem.
Taking out the trusty abacus, at 50mpg I would be using 300 gal per month with the HCH, and the 30mpg with the DX would be using up 50 gal/month. So I'm using 20 gallons LESS per month with the HCH! I'm digging it! (back to the abacus)
Lessee... gas is gonna be $4/gallon... wow... over 60 months (5 years) I'll be using about 1200 gallons less. That's $4,800!!!
Uh oh
$7,405 minus $4,800 means that the HCH is going to cost me $2605 more over the 5 years. And that's assuming $4 gas.
Moral of the story.... this is a bottom line issue for a lot of folks. If you feel that paying the extra money is worth it, great. But I think that the premium is far from mythical at this point.
I did that for over 30 years. Then I got fed up with giving a big chunk of my paycheck to some fat cat banker. If you keep a car 5 years past the payoff you should have saved more than enough to buy a new one. I am saving now for my next car. And I get to keep that interest I used to hand over to the credit union. It is easier than you think to get out of the interest trap that most Americans are stuck in. It was easier to justify when all interest was a write-off. it is all loss now.
PS
Same goes for CC interest. Think how fat your 401K would be if you put that 10% CC interest in the retirement pot instead of the BofA pot.
Saving on fuel costs is such a small part of the average American household expenses. Too bad they don't teach good economics in school.
Exactly my feelings. If Toyota & Honda were the Green companies they claim to be they would have added the hybrid option to the stripped vehicles instead of all the doo dads and bling bling electronics. They are only trying to appeal to the folks that are after the leading edge in technical wizardry. The family that just need a good car that gets good mileage are not included in their hybrid plan. Maybe someday. I doubt you will ever see a "value package" Civic or Corolla hybrid.
Any dummy can pony up 25,000-45,000 when 12.5k will do!!??
That's like asking the president of a fan club what he thinks about his idol.
Your conclusion is that automakers that make diesels believe in diesels.
OK, I'll accept that. So who else makes diesels and therefore must be a biased, believing, fan of diesels? :surprise: Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, BMW, Mercedes, Fiat, Volkswagen, Mazda, General Motors (Saab, Chevrolet, Opel, GMC, etc...), Ford, and many, many more.
Do they make more diesels each year or hybrids? Diesel.
Nissan, General Motors, Honda, and Ford have all publicly stated that hybrid cost is too high and that the cost must be reduced before hybrids will be cost effective for automakers and consumers. And these are all makers of or planning to make hypebrids. Why? Perhaps because of the marketing only.
I don't buy your poor attempt to discredit Folz. If there is a business case for hybrids, Folz will support them.
I understand economix just fine. But until I win the lottery, I won't be able to live my life with the intent avoiding paying interest, and neither will the vast majority of Americans.
So back on topic - My point was that if you are going to ( because of circumstances beyond your own control) have a commuter car and a car payment, you might as well get a car that has minimal operating costs, and at the same time has good creature comforts, clean emissions, and rock solid reliability, the HCH is a fine choice.
Sadly that is the economics we are being fed by the wealthy in this country. You can have it all right now. A car with all the frills and great mileage to boot. Nothing down and $400 a month. Oh but you will save $50 per month on gas. I don't buy into it anymore. I learned the hard way.
Buying a hybrid is the same as buying a Hummer H2, neither purchase is going to save you any money compared to Civic DX or Corolla CE.
The same case can be made for some of the diesels on the market.
Seems CA, not too long ago legislated a 2% total vehicle fleet requirement for electric cars. Shoot not even the environmentalists who pushed for this are buying these !!!! You also get a parking space equivalent to a handicap space and FREE electrical hook up!!! Needless to say the legislative types dont talk too much about this falling almost completely flat!? They also don't talk about the MTBE 2-4 billion dollar legislative fiasco either. !!!
If I may interject here for a moment, the additional monthly payment on a hybrid as opposed to a comparable vehicle will be more than the gas savings that a hybrid offers in most cases. So yeah its great that your saving $50 a month in gas but your car payment is $65 a month more. You lose out on a month by month basis for the life of the loan. Your HCH in a majority of cases is not the way to go if you're looking for cost savings.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Let's say I was interested in a 2006 Honda Civic and I was debating between the sedan and the hybrid.
With a navigation system, the hybrid costs $23,350; a similarly equipped Civic EX sedan costs $20,560. Let's even make it WORSE for the hybrid shopper and say you can get the EX for $19,000, making the hybrid cost $4,350 more.
The combined fuel economy of the non-hybrid is 35 mpg; the hybrid, 50 mpg, a theoretical difference of 15 mpg. In five years of average driving (15,000 miles per year), I would save 643 gallons, or $1,929 (assuming a gas price of $3 per gallon), with the hybrid. Combined with the current tax deduction (a savings of $580 in my tax bracket) I recoup 80% of the hybrid premium in five years.
If I were to buy the Honda Civic hybrid in January 2006, the numbers look even better. The federal tax deduction becomes a credit worth $2,100. Combined with my fuel savings, you would pay for the "extra hybrid premium" in about 5.3 years.
And Toyota has issued a command to the hybrid engineers to cut the hybrid component costs by 50%. So even less expensive hybrids are coming in the next 2-3 years.
Note how few (if any) of them sell diesels in the US currently.
-juice
No I don't. I think they are all dragging their feet in hopes that the whole hybrid mania will peter out. That includes big talking Toyota. Any manufacturer would rather sell diesel than hybrid. It is already proven to make them more money. Notice Toyota took a hit this last quarter. Could it be the drag of selling too many "Loss Leader" Prii? If not what cut into their fat profits.