Honda Civic Hybrid MPG-Real World Numbers

xcel · August 2005

Hi Markdel:

The discussions at Edmunds get out of hand quick and I hope you did not mean any harm but I have seen Mistermes dash pics multiple times and I have seen the video of his daily commute where he nailed a 63 + mpg / 43 + mile traffic and light congested nightmare of a segment in his CVT based HCH with a 10 - 15 mph head/cross wind! I know what the HCH is capable of and it is a lot more then what you may think. If you do not want to accept his actual FE or his excellent advice, that is up to you but to discredit someone of his caliber because of what you perceive isnt possible is a disgrace.

For those receiving in the low 30s in their HCH, might I be so bold as to recommend that you find a hypermiler near you so that he or she can take your little beauty out for a 10 + mile drive in their locale after they have checked your tire pressures and oil level? I know more then my fair share around the country and with a few searches of the hybrid websites we all know of, you will find one too. Once you have that qualified hypermiler behind the wheel OF YOUR CAR for that 10 + mile drive in their locale, you will know if its the car or if its your driving habits. Until that happens, all I see is a Blame Game. Do us all a favor and try to find out first beforehand. Who knows, there might actually be a problem with your HCH but I wouldnt wager my pay check on that being the case.

Good Luck

Wayne R. Gerdes

nicholasj · August 2005

this is just a good example of new technology having some bugs to iron out. I think that Honda and Toyota both need to make a better effort with a continued research/development program. The best solution would be to borrow a select group of vehicles who show extremes on both ends of the spectrum, put them through various diagnostics and real world conditions, take into consideration the overall driving conditions of the individual owners, and formulate a scientific overview that they can apply across the board when servicing, manufacturing, and trouble shooting these cars. The knowledge gained will serve them well; much like the old 'buy back' programs where Honda (for example) would approach owners of 1980-something Accords to purchase and then pick apart the car to learn from their faults and strengths. For now, I'm going to run my 1990 Toyota Camry with 90k miles into the ground. Despite the fact it only gets 28 to 32 MPG, the overall expenses I'll have to lay out in the coming years should put me on par with a vehicle that gets 45 to 50 MPG. Sure, I could have bought that Prius I was on a wait list for; but at nearly thirty thousand dollars and all the variable issues that have come up with mileage/(un)scheduled maintenance scenarios being reported, I'll stick with what is proven until someone builds a better mousetrap. Perhaps the new Civic this fall will fix the problem, being it employs the flawless VTEC system to run the 3-stage hybrid system. Maybe if current Civic Hybrid owners approach Honda with their issues, the company will compensate them with the newer model at a reasonable swap-out fee. The important thing to remember is that we're dealing with companies who are genuinely concerned with their customers feedback and overall satisfaction. If you are not going anywhere with the dealership, contact the companies directly to see how to proceed. Good luck!

markdel · August 2005

First, I have been to his site and can find no download of a video....
Second, I did not accuse HIM of lying, perhaps his car was not built by someone with a hangover, or on a friday by someone raring to go for the weekend.
In any case, I have tried everything I know to accelerate from a stop with indicated MPG greater than 20 MPG - lead foot, normal, granny, and super granny. If you want an indicated MPG greater than 20MPG starting at 0 MPH and going up to 35 MPH, you need to start at the top of a hill, I know because that was the only way I could do it. Going on a strip of highway that is 12 miles long, and taking notes as I go, and then driving the exact same highway BACK THE OTHER WAY to eliminate the grade of that strip of highway, the AVERAGE indicated MPG is 48 MPG on the straightaway (taking into account the boost gained by coasting at either end of the trip). Averaging in the 15 to 20 MPG indicated for the 1/4 to 1/2 mile it takes to "Granny" up to 60 MPH (the cruising speed for the highway) there is no way to get an overall MPG better than 40 to 41 MPG. Then when factoring in the grade up to where I live and the in city mileage in town ( my destination) the best I can ever get is 39.5 to 40 MPG. I have tried coasting, not coasting, coasting with and without being in gear, lead foot, light foot, "feather" foot, light timing, different gearing, keeping the RPM at different levels for the entire acceleration, or using different RPM's at different indicated MPH, using cruise control, not using cruise control, using AC, not using AC, (AND, BYE THE BYE, IF YOU ARE IN HOT WEATHER - 99 DEGREES - DRIVING WITH THE A/C VS WITHOUT AND HAVING THE WINDOWS OPEN - WITH A/C IS MORE FUEL EFFICIENT THAN WITH THE WINDOWS OPEN). The car drives perfectly. NO lurching, no stumbles, no exhaust smoke, no bad idle, nothing wrong.
I have the tire pressure set to 50 lBs. The oil has just been changed (twice) the indicated total miles driven is 4,800 and change. Trip meter B has not been reset since the car was bought and shows 40.8MPG. There is no alignment problem, no extra weight in the car, etc, etc. I have even tried the 89 octane "trick". The car has a fresh coat of WAX.
The car will not get 50 MPG, period, let alone 65 MPG or plus. misterme has either an unique combination of parts in his car, or .... you figure it out. Maybe he has a special route that he drives that is down hill on every leg to and from his house :confuse:
I am not dumb, I have the equivalent education of an engineer, an actual degree in accounting, and the training required to be a diving officer on a nuclear submarine (three of them actually) and have a firm grasp of physics and higher math (taught both in college) and know what I am talking about.
AND, I have helped a lot of folks, just don't advertise it here, thank you.

xcel · August 2005

Hi Markdel:

The site I am referring to is GH. Look for a link to videos and you will find all you need.

or (and I think it very likely) they lie.

In regards to lying, you said somebody was? Who could that have been?

And, in any case they are too busy patting their own back to care about you.

Again, I cannot think of anyone that has given more of their time to help others increase their HCHs FE then Misterme

Now back to your automobile The only thing you havent done (as requested) is attempt to get a hypermile qualed driver behind your HCHs windscreen to see if its you or the car? Your description doesnt tell me a thing because you have no hypermiling experience in a hybrid or non-hybrid and some of what you have posted above is without question incorrect. With that, do you live near Chicago? If so, TBaleno or I might be able to help. If you live near Atlanta, Misterme might be able to help. If you live near Fredricksburg, W. VA., RJ might be able to help. If you live in Arkansas or Missouri, Lakedude might be able to help. If you live in Texas, Kenny (I think that is were he resides?) might be able to help. If you live in TN., Billyt1963 might be able to help. If you live in NY., KLCarch might be able to help There are HCH Hypermilers all over this great country of ours and if you are unwilling to attempt to get one of us behind the wheel of your automobile, I wouldnt begin to guess what the problem is. Education means zip in regards to the capabilities of the driver so save that speech for someone that cares. I would however place greater then even odds that the problem lyes with the guy staring back at you in the mirror

Good Luck

Wayne R. Gerdes

blane · August 2005

Wayne,

markdel appears to have given his vehicle all of the benefit of the doubt in his very comprehensive report in post #57. He seems to have taken extreme measures to maximize his mileage for the testing that he's described.

If, as you have suggested, it takes having someone else drive markdel's vehicle to attempt to squeeze a few more mpg out of it under excrutiatingly EXTREME hypermiling circumstances it seems, to this observer, that it's like trying to count the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.

You and the other hypermilers have performed some amazing feats. I admire that.

However, the rest of the world cannot drive that way in their normal lives. It is totally unrealistic to compare such experimental results with the way most of us are forced to drive by our surrounding environment, i.e. other drivers in normal traffic.

As a personal note, my everyday driver is a 2004 Accord V6 Coupe. It is equipped with a navigation system and trip computer that has a moving bar indicating instantaneous mpg. My overall average is about 20 to 22 mpg and I see about 32 to 34 mpg on longer flat highway runs. When I attempt to hypermile using the moving bar, there is no possible way that I can accelerate from a stop without clogging traffic to an unacceptable degree. Even on a flat empty road, I see about 10 to 15 mpg for way too long before I just say the heck with it and give it a bit more gas. That is a totally unrealistic way to expect anyone else to drive.

Sure, I'm in the market for a Prius or Civic Hybrid. But I'll be damned, if I have to force myself while driving one of those vehicles, to sacrifice a normal driving experience. If my leadfooted wife were sitting in the passenger seat while I attempted to hypermile, she'd kill me.

xcel · August 2005

Hi Blane:

Why not take it into the dealership to find out if there is a problem with it? Because they are not going to find one! The next thing to do is go to someone who CAN HELP. I have seen nothing yet that says the vehicle is a mess or the driver is? There is no benefit of a doubt here. The only way I know of to find out if a car is performing up to spec in the FE department is to let someone that knows what IT SHOULD RECEIVE, drive it in his or her locale.

If, as you have suggested, it takes having someone else drive markdel's vehicle to attempt to squeeze a few more mpg out of it under excrutiatingly EXTREME hypermiling circumstances it seems, to this observer, that it's like trying to count the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.

It is pretty simple. If I could receive 60 - 65 in his HCH around town, there isnt a problem with the car. No question about it. I wouldnt be squeezing a few more miles out of it as you say, I would be looking at it knowing what an HCH is worth in my hands and if Markdels HCH does the same, it is the driver. He cannot get 50 out of it while coasting down a hill with the ICE off? If a hypermiler can get 60 - 65 mpg out of it driving around town, where do you think the problem lyes given said hypermilers experience? There is only one logical conclusion.

However, the rest of the world cannot drive that way in their normal lives. It is totally unrealistic to compare such experimental results with the way most of us are forced to drive by our surrounding environment, i.e. other drivers in normal traffic.

Do you think I drive in a bubble? When I am experimenting with advanced techniques for the first time, I am on an absolutely desolate country road as I have to drive ~ 4 miles of this road once every 6 weeks if I like to or not. When I am using those new found techniques to improve my own FE, I am on the same roads that everybody else is driving with the flow of traffic just like you do.

As a personal note, my everyday driver is a 2004 Accord V6 Coupe. It is equipped with a navigation system and trip computer that has a moving bar indicating instantaneous mpg. My overall average is about 20 to 22 mpg and I see about 32 to 34 mpg on longer flat highway runs. When I attempt to hypermile using the moving bar, there is no possible way that I can accelerate from a stop without clogging traffic to an unacceptable degree. Even on a flat empty road, I see about 10 to 15 mpg for way too long before I just say the heck with it and give it a bit more gas. That is a totally unrealistic way to expect anyone else to drive.

My own personal note: Where did you come up with the idea that hypermiling uses an extremely slow acceleration? You adapt to the traffic around you and then take advantage of said traffics idiosyncrasies when and where applicable. I usually accelerate in the 15 - 25 mpg range in my own I4 EX-L w/ NAVI per the TC if that helps you decide if that is normal enough? If there is no one around, I will bring her up in the 30 range. If you feel you have to accelerate faster then this, by god you purchased the right automobile for it and at an estimated 21 lmpg, you know where your dollars are being spent! Along similar lines, I dont think you want to know what my Accords lmpg is given my sacrifice of what you call a normal driving experience but driving in and amongst the Chicago faithful everyday (all 3,000,000 of us) with speed ranges from 0 - 68 mph each and every day, my PZEV performs very well while driving in the 25 - 50% quartile of average speeds day in and day out. Do you call 0 to 20 back to 10 back to 20 down to 0 back to 35 back up to 55 back down to 30 and back up to 65 during pre-Rush to Rush hour traffic slow downs normal? It is where I come from. Do you call a relatively steady 50 - 68 mph on a Chicago Tollway during the morning and afternoon rush but between traffic tie ups normal? It is where I come from. Do you call a steady 56 - 62 mph average speed in the late evenings on a Chicago tollway while in the far right lanes normal? It is where I come from. Do you call a 0 to 10 back to 0 back to 5 back to 0 on a Chicago tollway normal for a Rush hour? I do and it seems normal for everywhere else I have driven in the last 20 + years of my time behind the windscreen.

Now for a bit more in-depth discussion pertinent to your own situation as you may be missing the big picture My 2000 Insight 5-speeds year round lmpg was 32.5% above EPA highway. My 05 Accords 5 month lmpg is 39.4% above EPA highway at this point in time. Add in 4 months of Chicago style winter and its accompanying temps over the next 7 and that percentage will end up right around 33% above EPA highway as well. Do you see where this is heading? Hybrid, non-hybrid, 18-wheeler, econo-box, lux sedan, 4WD SUV It doesnt matter what it is. I should still average ~ 33% above EPA highway for that particular vehicle year round no matter what the vehicle is. USE this information below.

Sure, I'm in the market for a Prius or Civic Hybrid. But I'll be damned, if I have to force myself while driving one of those vehicles, to sacrifice a normal driving experience. If my leadfooted wife were sitting in the passenger seat while I attempted to hypermile, she'd kill me.

You can either change or you can suffer. Per your description, your lead footed wife would probably receive 17.5 - 20 mpg year round in your Accord (21/30 per the EPA) which is below the EPA combined by ~ 27%. She will probably receive 35 in a PZEV rated HCH w/ CVT (47/48) which is below the EPA combined by ~ 27% as well. You have to make up your own mind if an 18.5 lmpg vs. 35 lmpg is worth it to you or not given her driving habits?

Lmpg or lmpg = lifetime miles per gallon

Good Luck

Wayne R. Gerdes

kernick · August 2005

you: It is totally unrealistic to compare such experimental results with the way most of us are forced to drive by our surrounding environment, i.e. other drivers in normal traffic.

me: yes, if you're in a vehicle that is already low powered such that 0-60 is taking 10-11 sec. many times you better have it floored to get up to speed. I drive a 2-lane highway with few legal passing zones, and there is no better way to PO someone then to pull out from a side-road and casually accelerate. The gas you may save slowly accelerating, is gas someone else lost having to brake from 60mph, and then accelerate hard to pass you. Again I can not emphasize how much you'd PO people.

you: But I'll be damned, if I have to force myself while driving one of those vehicles, to sacrifice a normal driving experience.

me: yes the technology isn't very good if you can't drive normal. Putting 70psi in the tires, accelerating 1/10 of a sec, and coasting as far as possible are best left to a mall parking lot on Sun. night, just as full power demos of sports cars are best left to tracks.

xcel · August 2005

Hi Kernick:

In your own style

You: I drive a 2-lane highway with few legal passing zones, and there is no better way to PO someone then to pull out from a side-road and casually accelerate.

Me: Why did you pull out in front of somebody when you had to floor it to keep from P them O? You are going to get someone killed.

You: yes the technology isn't very good if you can't drive normal. Putting 70psi in the tires, accelerating 1/10 of a sec, and coasting as far as possible are best left to a mall parking lot on Sun. night, just as full power demos of sports cars are best left to tracks.

Me: Why are you putting 70 #s in your tires? Secondly, when have you driven in heavy traffic that was normal? Does accelerating from a stop to 10 mph, back down to 5, back up to 20, back down to 5, back up to 30, back down to 10, and back up to 55 sound normal to you? If so, I am glad I do not drive anywhere near you because youre a damned traffic hazard with those kinds of speed swings while driving down a road meant for 55 - 65 mph!

PS: I hope you enjoy your possible $50.00 fills unless you are making extra wasted trips to the gas station as of late vs. those of us traveling the same distance on $35.00 or $17.00 if I still had my Insight It hurts just thinking about the $s you wasted because of your poor driving habits And to think of all that CO2 and HC and CO and PM and NOx and It is a crying shame for all of our sakes. I hope you are at least driving a PZEV to minimize YOUR direct impact upon each and every person in your locale

Good Luck

Wayne R. Gerdes

kernick · August 2005

you: I hope you enjoy your possible $50.00 fills unless you are making extra wasted trips to the gas station as of late vs. those of us traveling the same distance on $35.00 or $17.00 if I still had my Insight.

me: no I probably can't drive the same distance as you for the same money. But my main driving is to work, and I carpool, so I get a 100% increase there. I use the same amount of gas driving to work as a solo driver in an Insight. The priorities in our vehicles are comfort, safety, performance, and winter capability.

And since my car wouldn't even hold $50 of gas, maybe about $40 right now, you shouldn't be too concerned about my finances. I use considerably less petroleum products than the average person, and probably you. I use no natural gas, have no house AC (don't need in NH) and no heating oil in 3 years. And my 3, year 2000+ vehicles are paid for, and I thus have very little auto costs.

And please don't promote cutting back on green house gases; it's still kind of chilly year round here in NH.

gagrice · August 2005

And please don't promote cutting back on green house gases; it's still kind of chilly year round here in NH.

Ditto for the Arctic Ocean. The ice is still too packed in to get the barges needed to fuel the Eskimo villages. Not many people in the Arctic believe in Global Warming. Been a very cold summer. Too many hybrids not enough CO2

xcel · August 2005

Hi Kernick:

You: No I probably can't drive the same distance as you for the same money.

Me: That is to bad for all of us

You: But my main driving is to work, and I carpool, so I get a 100% increase there. I use the same amount of gas driving to work as a solo driver in an Insight.

ME: Really? What do you drive and what is you FE as I mainly drive to work too!

You: The priorities in our vehicles are comfort, safety, performance, and winter capability.

ME: I thought those were considerations in everyones personal vehicle choice?

You: And since my car wouldn't even hold $50 of gas, maybe about $40 right now, you shouldn't be too concerned about my finances.

ME: Feels good to throw away $40.00 instead of $17 - 20 because you can, doesnt it

You: I use considerably less petroleum products than the average person.

ME: You have certainly proved that trying to help others achieve higher FE than your own. Have you helped anybody given your experience?

You: And please don't promote cutting back on green house gases; it's still kind of chilly year round here in NH.

ME: Every gallon pumps out ~ 19.6 #s of CO2 from your tail pipe let alone the ~ 9 for every gallon pumped, refined, and transported to the local station. Maybe you dont believe in GW or PO so do what you please. As for your family and community, I hope you are at least driving a PZEV

Good Luck

Wayne R. Gerdes

misterme · August 2005

Thanks everyone for keeping this discussion civil.

What is REAL WORLD NUMBERS?
I would say the use of cruise control on a normal trip should give pretty much an indication of MPG-REAL WORLD NUMBERS and most owners ( Myself included) report about the EPA rating.

I find it amazing how folks who know little to nothing about effective ways to stretch gas dollars somehow equate it to the proverbial grandma holding up traffic.

I can only imagine they must come up behind a terribly slow person and think this person is a hypermiler. Having little to go on, I can understand the mistake. That person is just plain slow and counter-productive.
Believe me, I come across these as well and get equally frustrated if not more, because I have a MPG goal to meet.

Wayne brought up a good suggestion for those who believe they may have a problem with their car to have one of us who are trained test it out.
Any one of us would be glad to do so if asked.
Amazing how such benign a suggestion can get so distorted.

Question on a hypothetical:
If a person buys a car rated 46city/51Highway and it only gets 40 does he have grounds for complaint? Sure, that is his MPG-REAL WORLD NUMBER and is less than he expected.
A friend who gets great gas mileage with the same car makes some suggestions.
At that point the driver has some choices.

1. He could tell his friend that he should be able to jump into his car and drive with little to no thought of it and still get the EPA rating. The car should do it all and he won't take the time/effort to improve and it will make little difference anyway.
He might file class action law suits against the car MFG because EPA says 46/51. He boasts everywhere what crummy mileage he gets.

2. He could make uneducated guesses of what makes better MPG, (Likely grandma style), get bored, go back to old habits. (As I did with my previous car)

3. He could find someone who is trained in this and learn it. (Perhaps his friend or people his friend knows)
With that knowledge he could:
___A. Apply the knowledge just a little and have little improvement.
___B. Apply it more and see more improvement.
___C. Apply it alot and get alot more improvement. Here you notice $ saved.
___D. Apply it to the extreme (If he can) and get extreme improvement. Save alot more $ here. It gets really enjoyable in this area.

4. If #3 doesn't work then he could:
___A. Tell everyone that his car only gets X MPG and that's it. Learning is over. Place blame on what is convenient. He might file class action law suits against the car MFG because EPA says 46/51. He boasts everywhere what crummy mileage he gets while the REAL issue resides below (B).
___B. Let his friend drive his car to determine what the issue is. There will always be an issue whether it's driver error, mechanical malfunction or environment. Period.
There would likely be more learning to do.

99% Of drivers I talk to (Sadly I think) is stuck on #1.
Sounds like hybridhater is stuck on 4-A.

Thanks

gagrice · August 2005

I know many may disagree that the EPA figures for the hybrids are further from reality than a standard ICE vehicle. I also believe that many hybrid and non hybrid owners are getting better than EPA out of their vehicles. As you pointed out most people expect to jump in the car and get very close to the mileage posted in the window. After all that is what we pay our government big taxes for, to keep the automakers honest. According to GH charts the only hybrids that are averaging the EPA estimate are the Insights & HCH manual. When you take into consideration the people that post on that sight are going to be more cognizant of the mileage, than Joe average driver, it does not look that great for most of the hybrids. I don't ever remember people as concerned about their actual mileage until the advent of the hybrid so it is hard to know how close all those ICE only vehicles are to their EPA rating. I know for myself the last 4 full sized PU trucks got right on what was claimed. I am not an aggressive driver so that may be why I get those numbers. I do know the little I drove the 1993 & 1994 Toyota PU trucks I bought, they were below the EPA numbers by several MPG. As far as class action lawsuits, that is craziness. Beating out the EPA & the automakers would take more money than can be imagined.

I agree with xcel & misterme. If you are serious about great mileage get some help from someone that is getting great mileage. Obviously it can be done.

kernick · August 2005

you: If you are serious about great mileage get some help from someone that is getting great mileage.

me: to a certain point the driver will be a factor. The car model itself will have variability in it. Most every attribute of every item will have distribution values in the shape of a bell-curve. Most values will fall around the average, but there will be extremes of highs and lows due to the item itself.

If a car's specs advertises it has 200hp, that is based on some sample size. The larger the sample size the more likely the sample average will be the whole population average. I would suspect that a model that tests at 200hp will have a range of 190-210hp. If you get one of the 190hp engines that is perfectly normal. In fact the manufacturer has theoretically never made a 200hp engine as that would require the number to be 200.000000000... and not 199.9999999...

Similarly all engine parts are going to have variation, even a whole bucket of parts made in the same mold. Put a smaller piston in a larger cylinder hole, get a temp. sensor or MAF sensor that's not calibrated, and you'll start getting performance differences.

Add in that materials used in road surfaces vary across the nation, and everyone's idea of what hills, curved roads, and urban congestion is and I'd guess there are real reasons besides the driver as to why mileage varies between people.

kernick · August 2005

you: Feels good to throw away $40.00 instead of $17 - 20 because you can, doesnt it

me: boy for one who wants to be so green, that sounds rather mean doesn't it? I hope I'm misinterpreting that you take some kind of satisfaction out of seeing others pay more for gas. You'd be upset with everyone who has an RV, part-time PU or SUV functional-user, luxury-car driver, power-boater, pleasure-trailer pulling, power boating, private aircraft-flying person in the country - "because they can". You might think they're "throwing away" money because of unnecessary fuel consumption.

Hey keep an eye out for a website we can go to this winter and discuss your heating bill. Oil or natural gas? When you're paying $400-$500/month more than me, I'll make you feel better and tell you I'm spending $50/month more for gasoline. ;-) Good Luck !!

misterme · August 2005

I knew this couldn't go on without a personal jab at someone.

Please let me reprint:
"There will always be an issue whether it's driver error, mechanical malfunction or environment. Period."

Kemick I don't blame your comments about my post.
You are among the 99% and seemingly on #1 of my hypothetical.
It's not a jab or attack of any kind. It's just the way things are.
Kind of sad though, as millions are missing out...and the nation as a whole.

fireking · August 2005

Make sure your readout is in miles per gallon, not kilometers per liter

I hope everybody is either getting better mileage by adjusting their driving style OR have taken their cars in for a checkup. It seems most of the lower MPG numbers are from cars with the CVT, not manual. That'll make a big difference.

xcel · August 2005

Hi Markdel:

http://hybrid.wrathof.com/

Good Luck

Wayne R. Gerdes

motherweary · August 2005

After reading posts in this thread last week, I found Hot_Georgia-2004's driving tips and printed them out. Then I filled my '02 HCH gastank and drove home. (This was last Wednesday.)

I have been getting, recently, about 48 mpg in combined city/highway commute driving. (My overall MPG since I bought the car is around 46, which includes the few thousand miles of letting the car train me.) Just by following some of the tips, I clocked 55 mpg on the way home. On Thursday and Friday, the mpg dropped to about 52.5. It's now down to 50 because I made a few trips this weekend to haul packing boxes up hill.

I have had to moderate my driving style a bit but not drastically, which for me means staying closer to the speed limit rather than flying way over it. I do find that I have to pay more attention to the road and to geography in general, but since my commute is through varied topography, this is a pleasure.

I found the tips at Steve's driving tips on GreenHybrid.com

markdel · August 2005

I looked at the first video (HCH Manual Trans.) and as I suspected, there was no mystery as to driving skills involved. I will withhold total judgment until I can view the HCH CVT video, but I suspect the results will be the same.
The point is, my car will not maintain 40 MPG indicated while pulling a grade in a high gear ratio. It will not do it, period, and it has nothing to do with driving skill. I noticed that when the driver started out he had a high MPG indicated even when in reverse gear, and could maintain a 40 MPG indicated while ACCELERATING up to 60 MPH. Again, my car will not do that, no matter what I do with the accelerator. There is just no skill involved at that point in driving, I will admit there might be some difference in driving skill vis a vi how one maintains speed in freeway driving, anticipation of lights in city driving, etc.; but accelerating uphill in high gear is not skill involved, either your car will do it -- or not. And, my car will not get 40 MPG going up hill.
My point is, its the car. He has a combination of individual parts and programing that will allow the car to do something my car will not do. Again, no skill involved.

markdel · August 2005

Now, having viewed the HCH CVT video I can state with certainty that my car will not respond in the same manner as the car in the video. My assist will not kick in with an indicated MPG of 50. To get my assist to kick in I have to press down on my accelerator to the point that my indicated MPG is less than 40, usually around 30 or less.
My point is made, its the car... and I will let the remainder of the quote go unsaid.

xcel · August 2005

Hi Markdel:

You just viewed the second best CVT based HCH hypermiler on the planet achieve what most think is impossible. Now let someone of his skill prove it one way or the other in your automobile. You do not have his skill and may never have. Until someone that knows what your HCH is really worth gets behind the wheel, you will be one very unsatisfied customer. There is not much more to say other then you need a professional to do a proper diagnosis. You are not that professional in regards to FE no matter how you wish it so.

Good Luck

Wayne R. Gerdes

markdel · August 2005

I live in Yakima, WA. If you come by you or anyone else is welcome to drive my car. The point you seem to miss is that on a steady grade, pulling a given weight, the best skill in the world can not beat cruise control. If you are doing ups and downs, then go ahead and store inertia from the downs and spend it on the ups, fine with me. But on 12 miles of steady up NO ONE CAN DO ANY BETTER THAN I CAN I do I do not care if HE IS the best in the universe. And, I saw the car in the video do something my car cannot. Unlike most folks I LOOKED AT THE VIDEO AND PAYED ATTENTION. I saw the test car apply assist at a speed and indicated MPG that my HCH can not do, I don't care who is at the wheel.
I will grant your great skill, I have no doubt you and other hypermilers can wring more MPG out of my car than I can. I will give it to you, hands down. NEITHER YOU NOR ANYONE ELSE WILL, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, BE ABLE TO DUPLICATE THE MPG YOU GET IN YOUR CAR WHILE DRIVING MY CAR. And, I do not think there is anything wrong (intrinsically) with my car, I believe it is a combination of random parts coming together on the assembly line, with a fluke (or manually made) difference in the ECM/Throttle programing.
Enough said, I will no longer pine over my MPG. The videos have actually made me feel great getting the MPG that I do get. Seeing the physical difference in how my car responds to inputs as compared to the car in the video has laid the matter to rest for me.
45 MPG is great considering what I was getting.
Thanks for the videos.

Mark

misterme · August 2005

It's my car in the video. Most of the time I can get Assist to come on at 40 or 36MPG while pulling a hill, but I do my best to stay off of it completely.
You probably noticed the first 14 miles were almost constant stair cased hills.
I don't believe I have a super car.
Next time I'm at the dealer for an oil change/maintenance I'll take one for a spin if they have one on the lot and see if there is a difference.

Back when I was getting less I also thought I was doing all I could do.
I thought the same thing when my trips were averaging in the mid 50's
Thought the same again while in the upper 50's then low 60's.
I was fooling myself because now I'm upper 60's
Am I doing all I can do today?
Probably not, I have more to learn and can do better.

It's important to mention here that NOT EVERYONE CAN GET 60's MPG
But everyone can improve.
If I was stuck with an H2 I could improve that as well.

..

xcel · August 2005

Hi Markdel:

The point you seem to miss is that on a steady grade, pulling a given weight, the best skill in the world can not beat cruise control NO ONE CAN DO ANY BETTER THAN I CAN I do I do not care if HE IS the best in the universe.

You are incorrect. Let me just say many hypermilers can easily DOUBLE your FE on a flat stretch of road without using cruise control. You just do not know what to do or how to do it just yet is all

NEITHER YOU NOR ANYONE ELSE WILL, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, BE ABLE TO DUPLICATE THE MPG YOU GET IN YOUR CAR WHILE DRIVING MY CAR.

No, we cannot and we wouldnt try. Your FE is to low for any qualified hypermiler to begin with. What we can do is find out if there is a problem with your HCH because you obviously cannot by your own statements. You have to understand that a hypermiler achieves far beyond what you do everyday. You have not yet accepted this fact and until you do, you are stuck with relatively poor FE. Again, until either a bad car or your habits are proven by a hypermiler qualified individual, all I see is a huge and unwanted rant.

IIRC, Billy6 of Honda Insight fame lives up near Yakima I think? Would you be interested in meeting him to find out if its you or the car? He should be able to nail down a 60 + mile segment after a few minutes in yours and I bet he has never even driven one

Finally, 45 MPG is great considering what I was getting.. If you are receiving 45 mpg from your HCH, what are you complaining about? The EPA for the CVT based HCH is 47/48 or 48/47 depending on the emissions and the 5-speed is 45/51 or 46/51 depending on the same.

Good Luck

Wayne R. Gerdes

zodiac2004 · August 2005

Wayne,
Can you point us to some hypermiler tips. I know about your "drive as if you don't have brakes" and "where to park in a parking lot" tips. Any others that may be used in non-hybrids is much appreciated.

xcel · August 2005

Hi Zodiak2004:

I hope you have heard about one of the best hypermiling sites on the net? Follow the pics copyright below as it should guide you. While there, consider reading Mistermes excellent article on HCH and general hypermiling:

http://www.greenhybrid.com/learn/article/2-achieving-high-fuel-efficiency.html

There have been even more advances in hypermiling technique(s) since that truly excellent article was posted.

While there, consider a look up of DWL, FAS, P&G although very sparingly in an HCH and never in a non-hybrid

, Rabbit and general timing, Ball in the bowl, Traffic Side and Surf Those should suffice for now given you already know about my own brand of Parking and DWB technique(s).

04 Prius II - Shift 10 - 120.6 mpg after 3 round trip segments totaling 93.5 miles. 218.5 V on the pack at the start. 220.0 V on the pack at the finish.

# of red lights encountered during the 3 round trip segments: 24
# of slow downs below 20 mph without a complete stop during the 3 round trip segments: 17

Sorry for the self-promotion but I am pretty proud of this one With that, I know each and every one of us involved in that Marathon - Attempt can best the above with even better conditions and using the culmination of the shared knowledge gained both during and after the event. Many HSD pilots around the country are seeing improved FE when using just a small portion of the advanced technique(s) we used which in itself made the event worth it in terms of our time and energies.

Good Luck

Wayne R. Gerdes

misterme · August 2005

That is truly amazing marathon, involving many drivers using the same vehicle.
Another thing to point out is that except for that advanced fuel consumption gauge the Prius was stock! No additional battery packs or anything.
120.6MPG is really something.

Now all we need is an HCH marathon!

markdel · August 2005

Again, we are talking past each other -- I did not say on a steady FLAT road -- I said a steady grade, aprox 2%, for 12 miles. No dips, no ups, no downs, just flat UP at a slight grade. So, what magic are you going to do? All thats left is pulse driving, and I just don't think that will out do a steady level accelerator input, and if cruise control is good at anything, its good at that. I will admit that you can do better on a stretch of road where the grade goes positive then negative and back and forth. Like I said, build up inertial on the downs and spend it on the ups -- no magic there, just good control of your foot. But when its all one way (or the other) there is nothing to do, the car just goes, at what ever its best rate is, and that is that. You can wiggle all you want, but you will not convince me that you can do better.
I have a stretch of road that is negative grade with some variations going into town from my house (after a real hilly stretch), and then comes back out with a positive grade, and I swear it is just plain flat, 2% grade, with no variations. The car does 2500 rpm, 40 MPG indicated, 60 mph. And, I do not have to move the accelerator, and when the cruise control is active it does the same. Going the other way, even I can beat the cruise control, it gets 50 MPG, I can get 65 MPG. But not back, its 40 MPG with me doing it or the car.
Mark A. Delagasse

P.S. I am still happy with my 45 MPG overall.
MD

markdel · August 2005

As I said I will anyone who wants to, to drive my car. I just can't go outside of Yakima County because of a disablility.
Mark

motherweary · August 2005

I searched but couldn't find an answer, so please forgive me if you've had to go through this before.

In my commute of creep-and-stop-and-creep traffic, if I creep to a stop (which is often mandatory, if I don't want people endlessly cutting in ahead of me), the gas engine does not cut out automatically. Is there some trick for making it do that?

misterme · August 2005

Motherweary, I don't give tips on this website but if I did, I'd suggest rebooting (Switching the key off then on again without restarting)

xcel · August 2005

Hi Mark:

Earlier you were jumping on the bandwagon with others who said it was Hondas fault for poor FE, False Advertising, and that no one here is willing to help. Now you are saying you are receiving 40 mpg climbing a 2% grade w/ CC! I do not know where you are going with this? Your overall FE is decent enough while climbing and I commend you for it. I do not have a clue as to how you are breaking the rest of your daily grinds tank FE?

Telling a hypermiler what is or isnt possible is like spitting into the wind. We have already been there and done that. As far as EPA estimates are concerned, I do not know why they are as low as they are? The EPA test cycles can be beaten handily most of the time no matter where you live or how short a commute in my experience. All but maybe in 32 degrees F and below during a snowstorm with a less then 5 minute jaunt I would still be trying hard to beat the EPA under those conditions Do you want a pic of that too

I understand you do not know about and/or probably understand much what a qualified hypermiler does day in and day out. With that, you can talk the talk but can you walk the walk? My Insight received in the 50 - 60 mpg while climbing a 4 + % grade so do not tell me I am talking past you or that you are doing the maximum possible. You are not even close to that point yet! Because you have a very high fuel economy - game gauged equipped HCH, you can learn, practice, improve, learn some more, practice some more, improve some more, and so on and so on if you want. After some time, you might even begin to innovate and your FE will improve yet again!

Innovation Even while the non-hybrid - 05 Accord is sitting in the drive on a 565 + mile tank, ½ still left on the Fuel gauge, 51.9 mpg per the NAVIs TC, well over a 63 mph average, etc., I am working on yet another technique I call a D-FAS. Not all of the tools a hypermiler has in his tool pouch are for everyone and I will never say this is so. I will say that many individuals posting about FE in many of the non-hybrid forums I visit as well as what I actually see individuals driving like out on the highways in and around the Chicagoland area are never going to achieve anywhere near the EPA estimates! It isnt that they do not try sometimes but it is simply that they do not have the willingness to learn or even want to

Here is another interesting experience I will remember for a very long time in regards to an individuals FE improvement. I truly hope you take this to heart. Just 3 weekends ago, I had the opportunity to take a couple out in their practically brand new Prius II (~ 3,000 miles) for a short hypermiling clinic. They were averaging 51.x something which is not too bad for a non-setup, relatively brand new, hybrid automobile. After just 20 minutes with a reset FCD from the parking lot of the hotel and back to the same parking lot, the owner had his Prius II up to 85.5 mpg after ~ 20 miles. Not only did they receive what I will call astounding FE from a car that size, the car was loaded up with vacation gear, the owner, his wife, I, and the A/C was set to a very comfortable 73 degrees while in the high 80s ambient!

Finally, if you want to play in the big leagues making verbose proclamations about poor FE of yours or someone elses hybrid, you had better have some basis for the rant Are you ready to open up your thought process and learn from the likes of Misterme or are you going to continue to whine about what is and isnt possible here in the HCH - MPG-Real World Numbers thread? If I havent pissed you off enough to get you to drive your own HCH for all its worth in the FE department, I have failed in my quest at turning an ok FE driver into a much better one

Good Luck

Wayne R. Gerdes

motherweary · August 2005

That's a great tip you didn't give me, misterme. Thanks! I'll try it out tonight.

hybridhater · August 2005

Holy Moley!

I haven't read any posts since my last one a week or so ago. Man did I have alot to catch up on. I was seriously rolling on the floor when the guy said he felt like he parachuted onto the Gaza strip! You people are really getting into it!

I just picked up my HCH from the dealer today. My husband took it in for the recall so I have been driving my gas-gulping Expedition for the last week. We spoke to the service manager about our mileage woes and he actually seemed to want to help us out. He said we could make an appointment when we get back from our Labor Day vacation and he will give our car another check-up and contact Technical Assistance with our problems. Does anyone know anything about this? He said it's some kind of nationwide database for Honda cars, their problems and the solutions others have found (or not found). I would love to hear of any info anyone has on this. Anyway, I'm feeling happy that someone is trying to help me.
Meanwhile, my husband (who is responsible for our lovely name, sorry) did admit to me that after reading some of your posts he realized he had been hitting it to hard off the line when he was driving and has eased off. My current tank has 250 miles on it and is teetering between 36.7 and 37.0 which I think is thanks to my husband's changes.

As for having a hypermiler drive my car, I would be delighted! All I want to know is if there is something wrong with my car or if it IS me. I'm trying to do everything right, I've listened to all of your tips and have tried to implement them into my driving habits (I can't get the videos to download on my computer). If it is me, I would love to have someone to tell me what I'm doing wrong and show me how it should be done. But the fact is, I'm all I have. We are the only people we know that have a hybrid anything. I was glad to see postings of a few websites and I plan to visit them tomorrow. Until then, if you know of anyone in the Phoenix area that can help me I would love to speak to them. I would be overjoyed if I could get 45 mpg like markdel. And if I didn't have to drive like a grandma anymore, that would be great!

Oh, one more thing, the service guy asked us to find out what areas you guys are in. He thinks our balmy 115 degree heat might have some thing to do with it. I don't know because we've had the car since December and didn't need the air for the first 4 months or so. The best tank I've ever had was 37.0 in March. Most of the time it is somewhere between 32 and 35.

Thanks,
J & R in AZ

xcel · August 2005

Hi Hybridhater:

You need to contact Larsb as he is named here or Lars-ss as he is named at the hybrid site for some assistance.

I have to ask, is your husband receiving around 10 mpg in the Expedition with a 14/18 EPA City/Highway estimate driving your commute?

Good Luck

Wayne R. Gerdes

misterme · August 2005

Thanks hybridhater.
You had posted:
"But the fact is, I'm all I have. We are the only people we know that have a hybrid anything. I was glad to see postings of a few websites and I plan to visit them tomorrow."

I'm happy to say that no, you are not all you have. There are great web based communities staffed and filled with people who are there only to help.

If it is any consolation at all, I had an experience last week.
Arriving to my car after work my tire was flat to the ground.
I had one of those 12v car plug in pumps so I re-inflated.

I wasn't sure how much time I had left before going flat again so I high-tailed it home, 46 miles.
I also did a bit of an experiment. I used 99% freeway, cruise control on and AC set to full climate control, temp knob set to 3:00.
My locked speeds were:
MPH/Posted limit
68/55
74/65
78/70
I parked at only 36MPG on the dash, which is about 30 less than my typical.

xcel · August 2005

Hi Hybridhater:

I PMed Larsb a few minutes ago over at GH so hopefully you (3) can get together and not only have him take your HCH for a drive but also for you and your husband to learn a few things to help your FE in the future

Good Luck

Wayne R. Gerdes

markdel · August 2005

I don't know where you got 40MPG climbing the grade, I get 40 MPG overall including climbing the grade. If I change my route and bypass the grade and go down the valley and accept some ups and downs instead of all up, then I get 45 MPG overall. Its simple. I just stated, if you re-read some of the comments, that I saw in a video that I was directed to, a HCH doing 40 MPG+ going up a hill, mine wont do that, so thats why I say its the car. I also, in the same video, saw a HCH engage assist when going faster than 40 Mph, and while still achiving 40+MPG indicated, again my car wont do that. Thats all I am saying.

With my car getting 40mpg going the short way into town, its better than my old car, a Saturn VUE 6cyl AWD, which got 19MPG on a good day...
And, I was replying to the original "FALSE ADVERTISING", I did not start the chain, don't you guys read anything right the first time?? :confuse:

Mark

markdel · August 2005

I just love it. I make a claim about a car pulling a steady grade, being physics after all, a given weight, climbing a given grade, in a given car, with given HP, and no variation to store inertia on downs to spend on ups (thats your great skills by the way, and I give it to you, you are probably better at than me), and then you counter the claim by postulating driving skill on a FLAT STRECH. Come on lets compare apples and oranges why don't we while were at it.. :P

xcel · August 2005

Hi Markdel:

I still do not know why you are complaining? 45 mpg in an HCH isnt half bad for a non-trained driver. As for the rest of the rant, it doesnt tell me anything I havent seen or heard a hundred if not a thousand times before.

In terms of your claims or grades driven, a hypermiler can climb the same grade, descend the same grade, and drive the same flat road as you do and still receive far better FE then you in your own car no matter which of three scenarios he or she is subjected too! It is only because you do not know any better yet Did you really think any of us achieve hypermileage on a particular type of terrain or roadway? You have a lot to learn and I highly recommend that you start learning instead of playing little league ball in the professional leagues.

Good Luck

Wayne R. Gerdes

markdel · August 2005

Its not a rant, and I am happy with 45MPG.

Second, if you can not explain to me how you do one thing, just one, not your whole bag of tricks, just one little thing, well enough so I can understand it, and even go out and try it -- then your arguments amout to the the same thing the Emerald City Emperor floated into Oz on, a bag of hot air.

That one Item, how you can get better milage going up a steady grade, no dips, just steady up, and get better milage than me or cruise control.

Thats it, use as much time and column inches as you wish, personally I don't think you can do it.

I will not post again until you do. And, don't think I'm the only one out here who would like to know, or thinks you can't do it.

________Good Luck

________Mark A. Delagasse

xcel · August 2005

Hi Markdel:

As pointed out earlier, tips and tricks posted here go to waste. Go to where the hypermilers hang out (GH) and find your answers over there. If you would prefer another, head on over to (IC) and do a search on 80+ mpg to find exactly what you need in regards to climbing as a hypermiler can

As for the personally part, please continue your challenges as it might actually lead you to learning something about achieving higher FE out of just about any vehicle. Your HCHs current FE is not even the equivalent of my non-hybrid, PZEV based, Honda Accord w/ Auto

Good Luck

Wayne R. Gerdes

larsb · August 2005

Hybridhater,

Hey, I live in Phoenix and would be glad to take your car for a spin and see if I think something is wrong with it, compared to my own 2004 manual tranny HCH.

This monsoon humid and smoking hot (113 degrees yesterday) weather has been killing my MPG also lately, my most recent tank being a MERE 42.85 MPG, which is below my lifetime average of 47.9 with this car. So I can assure that weather has something to do with the low numbers you are getting, assuming you are using A/C.

Some questions:

1. How many miles on your HCH?
2. Is it a CVT or a manual?
3. What are your tires running as far as PSI?
4. When was your last oil change?

Let me know those answers, and maybe we can meet and compare techniques.

I'm not anywhere in Wayne's class as far as hypermiling, but I have done fairly well considering my commute is very short, and I almost always have myself and my two kids (9 and 6) and their carseats in my car, and I live in Phoenix !!

hybridhater · August 2005

No, driving like a lead foot for 3 years are avg mpg is 13.2 in a 2003 Expedition. Not to mention off and on we pull our 2 jet ski trailer to the lake and our two horse trailer to various sites for riding. (It has 30,245 miles on it.)

markdel · August 2005

I am led to two assumptions: 1. the folks here are not worth talking to, in which case why do you talk to them? 2. you can't do it.

Having a firm grounding in physics I know that to lift a given mass a given distance requires a given amount of work. I.E. taking a HCH up a straight grade can be done most efficiently at the car's most FE MPH, and then holding it steady. Any, deviation requires a phase change on propulsion which introduces conversion losses (i.e. inefficiencies), so once the most FE MPH is found, you set it into the cruise control and go. Or, in your case you hold your foot steady on the gas pedal.

I see no further reason to remain on this subject as all you folks are going to do is puff and blow, no snow.

Mark

hybridhater · August 2005

Larsb,
I will get back to you on these questions. My husband has the car right now at his dealership. I told him to check the PSI and asked him to bring it home today. I know it's at around 7500 miles and it's not manual so I guess that's a CVT. It's an '05 and we've had it for 9 months.
I'm excited that you're in Phoenix. We probably won't be able to get together until next week because we are going out of town for a wedding this weekend. My husband's day off is Thursday so that would be the best day for us. He doesn't get weekends off because those are the best days to sell cars.

Thanks, J

P.S. We are in East Mesa. I'm a stay at home mom with an 11 and a 7 year old and all I do is cart myself and the kids around (no car seats), that's the whole reason I wanted this car. My husband doesn't drive it very often. Usually only on his day off.

xcel · August 2005

Hi Markdel:

1. I was asked to come in and help solve a simple riddle as well as add a bit of first hand experience. Why are you here?

2. I am not beating physics, I am simply using Physics more efficiently then you are. Your assumptions are way off is all. DWL is just one tool in the toolbox for a climb to far surpass what you have described in your post above.

With that, I gave you the hints to grab the tools and you are still telling me I cant? Please The next time you drive a distance equal to ~ half way across the continent on a single tank of fuel in a multiple RT drive of the state of Illinois or simply back and forth to work, drive a Ranger P/U from just north of Chicago to Sebring, Florida and 1/3 way back while averaging 41.9 mpg, drive through Chicagos daily grind in a non-hybrid Accord and receive > FE then you are in your HCH, and achieve > 120 mpg on a local highway with tens of climbs per RT segment near Pittsburgh, PA. all the while falling all the rules of the road, then tell me I cant. Right now, you arent in that kind of position

Here is the elevation profile of the Marathon-Attempt that I had the opportunity to drive earlier this month.

Do you think there was some climbing involved on that stretch of PA. highway or was it all downhill from one end to the other and back ~ 48 times? Would you like to see a pic of the Energy screen in the Prius II with all (6) - 5 minute bars maxxed at 100 mpg while running that course? I am sure you can climb as efficiently given your physics background

Hybridhater, I look forward to hearing back from you after you get together with Larsb. At least you will know if its the car or the driver

Good Luck

Wayne R. Gerdes

larsb · August 2005

OK....I live near 40th Street and Broadway, considered East Phoenix, so I'm at least in the same general Valley section as you. I work just East of Sky Harbor off Washington.

We might be able to get together Thursday the 8th, in the morning hours. I can free up some time that morning to come see the two of you at your home or at a Central meeting place between Sky Harbor and your place, like maybe Fiesta Mall or someplace in that area?

My best chance to check your car is to get a good stretch of city streets with lights spread out pretty far and see what we can do. I will be able to compare your car's MPG performance to mine and see if I think there is a problem or if it's just normal. Let me know, and once we settle on a date, time, and place, I will get my phone number to you in case there are changes. Thanks !!

hybridhater · August 2005

Thursday the 8th sounds great. Fiesta mall sounds fine. I don't know how to get
our phone #'s to each other but there are some things I would like to talk to you
about before we get together and we can settle on a time. Thanks so much. R&J

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