Porsche - the world's best car company.

highender · July 2005

I do have to say most of what shifty said was correct.

A Porsche buyer will not look at the CR ratings.... ( though boxsters were considered "good buy " )

a 911 is not just a car...it is a dream , a statement, toy with a big smile on your face.....

The cayenne I like a lot...due to having family.... though they pulled down the JD Power reliability ratings a bit..cause of growing pains of a new vehicle launch. That said, the SUV cayenne rocks... how many cars can go 60-0 in only 118 ft....and accelerate 0-60 in only 5.2 sec ?

By the way, did you guys know the Cayenne did beat the regular boxster on a English track, and equaled the BMW 3 series time ?

I drove a 1982 928...daily for many years...with hardly any maintenance...but only stopped cause my sister crashed it. The boxster is awesome, as was the 968. Did not get a 996 due to family ....

IMHO, Porsche needs to pay a bit more attention on customer service and American's want of convenience features...without diluting its focus on performance.

Is it the BEST car company ? I don't know....but I would like to be in a porsche....more than I would like to be in any other car...

highender · July 2005

btw, shifty is right about the older porsches...

67% of all Porsches EVER built...are still running today...

that is as much a testament to the company, the car, as it is to the fans.

04_xkr · July 2005

I hear the latttte 80's to early 90's porsches have quite a few problems...but any newer ones with problems will cost a lot to fix...theres no way to win on that unless you're lucky. In terms of porsche being the best car company...possibly. They were selling boxsters that were outperformed by z3's/z4's and slk's for more money. Not only for more money, but you don't even get any features on them like power seats, Xenon lights, colored crests...or just about any luxury feature for that matter. They do build cars with extreme precision and unique looks. Now the new carerra which should have had a power boost to at least 340hp, but instead went from 320 to 325...weak. You can argue that they're fast enough but for that price I am not settling for "just enough." I would have much rather porsche keep all of it's "perfection" in it's cars just about the way they were in the previous model and instead for 05' to update the engine...it's about time. 340hp for the carerra and 370-375hp for the carerra S isn't asking a lot at all (that's all it needs to beat the vette at least). Why can an M6 make 500hp for about $80,000, and a carerra (with all of the options that the M6 has standard) will cost about the same or more for 320hp. They're both sports coupes and both have luxury to them but porsche is supposed to be the sportier car...but it seems that just means being smaller with less room. I guess that's why porsche is the best car company--they can sell almost entirely on looks and also their name. Even if the M3 was as small as a porsche, it would perform just as good...possibly better. So the only thing porsche is selling above their competition is looks and their name...and they can charge just about whatever price they want to charge and people will pay. (many even prefer a higher price to keep it more exclusive) WOW! What's better than that. No wonder they make more profit than any other company.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2005

How about Ferrari for really being profitable------

Their newest model is sold out WITHOUT THE PRICE BEING POSTED!!!!

rroyce10 · July 2005

.... **And I don't think they rely solely on empty image like Harley does** .....

You didn't print that with a straight face, did you ...?

I have a funny feelin' that 500,000 people from Sturgis might disagree with you ..l.o.l.......

Terry :shades:

Mr_Shiftright · July 2005

I wrote that with a totally straight face. Any high performance motorcycle rider will tell you the same thing I think. If the mob were always right Terry, just think of what we'd be forced to drive.

starrow68 · July 2005

That's what makes money for the big car companies. But with our consumer driven economy we aren't forced to follow the mob and can spend what we like and get any combination of performance, image or combination of the above. From a value perspective the Porsche is more image than value for the performance $, IMHO. Harley may be the same, I used to ride Honda's before I understood how insane two wheels is when surrounded by four or more. A Corvette coupe for about $45k is more performance than spending the same money on a Porsche, in both a straight line, by a long shot and around a road course, at least the six I've been to. Now the fact that the wife's cost less than $40k at the end of the '04 model year is just gravey but cements the issue. Try getting a Boxster S for that kind of money and then when you get good let's meet and see what they can do at most any road course. Given similar average drivers, I'm betting the Corvette walks away. At best I'm average, but I hope to get better

If all you want to do is autocross, have fun in 60 sec. chunks, I'll admit the Porsche will do better on average, but it kept my attention for about three days and the less than 6 minutes of track time for a full day didn't keep my attention, even though I was able to place in top 5 among other similar inexperienced drivers.

Randy

fintail · July 2005

I just wouldn't want to look at the Malibu steering wheel...

IMO, Harleys are very image based, around here. The perfect toy for pseudo-rebellious boomers hitting a midlife crisis. They scream "I'm a tough pharmacist" or something.

starrow68 · July 2005

You say Harleys scream something about the individual and then you say you wouldn't want to look at the Malibu steering wheel. The wannabe bikers are to be sneered at since you don't share their crisis, at the moment, wait until you get there. But, your inability to see past the steering wheel to the performance package is somehow justifiable? Where are the objective measures that bring the analysis down to admission that buying a Porsche is mostly about image, since the $'s aren't justified on paper?

fintail · July 2005

When I get to that crisis, I'll buy a Ferrari or something, or maybe even a nice future Corvette. That's another 25 years or so off for me though.

Most eyecatching cars have little to do with being objective. If I'm gonna spend 40K+ I want something special. Right now, I have one too many cars as it is, and a Vette seems like something my dad's friends would swoon over, not mine.

I can see past the steering wheel...but I wouldn't want to look at the thing. I guess it can be swapped out.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2005

The topic is about how the company is run, about which is the "best" carmaker in terms of business, not which car is fastest, so we'd best not stray too much. We already know how GM is as a business these days, (not good) and the quality level of their products is fairly commonly known and documented to be mediocre at best. Porsche enjoys an excellent reputation for quality and durability, be it real or perception, and this really helps sell cars, even at those high prices. Porsche owners aren't dopes with money I don't think. If they wanted Corvettes or S2000s they would buy them, and maybe some do, I dunno.

Harley runs a great company BTW, with outstanding customer loyalty, so they may be one of the "best" businesses selling motorcycles. But they certainly aren't the best motorcycle by a long shot. But good enough to make the sale, which is after all, what business is about------if you get on the scoreboard, it doesn't matter if it's a pretty touchdown or an sloppy one.

Ferrari too has got to be one of the "best". They are outrageously expensive, cost $1 a mile to maintain, and yet they sell out years in advance, sometimes even before the MSRP is even posted. Worth every penny, too.

rroyce10 · July 2005

... **But they certainly aren't the best motorcycle by a long shot. But good enough to make the sale,** .... ....l..o..l.....

Really .......?

Is that why they have been sold out for over 5 years and their bikes are worth almost the same price used, as new .. is that the reason why the European market is willing to pay double for what they get here .. is that why the folks in Boston have no fear to take 4,000 mile trips to Sturgis, or the folks in Milwaukee don't bat an eyelash at a 2,500 mile road trip to Daytona Bike week ...

And yep .. except for a few bugs in their teeth, even the folks in Marin county don't mind taking a 3,000 mile trip to Sturgis - now their Porsche might break down but their Harley Softail will there and gone ..... we need to get out of that aquarium ..l.o.l....

Terry

scott1256 · July 2005

Come on, Mr. Shiftright..........don't be shy!!

I'll write it for you: "Harley can't be any good.........they aren't made in Europe!"

You are letting your Euro tunnel vision blind you to a lot of good products.

scott1256 · July 2005

"GM is as a business these days, (not good) and the quality level of their products is fairly commonly known and documented to be mediocre at best."

The latest documentation of long term durability shows GM products at the top along with Toyota.

And...........Porsche is up at the top of the list as well, though it may not be critical to their sales effort.

lemmer · July 2005

I think I am with Shifty on this one. I think people are buying an image and a feel more than high quality engineering. Fortunately for them, their "simplicity" usually allows for some sort of repair with bailing twine and duct tape.

I lived in Orlando for about five years. Every year when it was Daytona bike week, broken down Harleys would litter the Central Florida landscape.

Not that it is the Harley's fault, but about once a week the paper would note that some lawyer/accountant/pharmacist/doctor/etc. got killed on his Harley while he tooled around town (usually without a helmet).

Mr_Shiftright · July 2005

Well I don't want to get into a match with Harley people---I mean they are very loyal, but Harleys are really mediocre bikes. They can't do ANYTHING better than any bike. They vibrate, handle like hogs on ice, are heavy and clunky. A chore to drive any distance. If you want to do any serious long distance driving, you'd better tear the engine down right off the showroom floor, would be my advice.

They are better than they used to be, so let's give credit where credit is due---they've gone from awful to bearable. They're fun for a 1/2 hour rental...make lots of noise, look BAD....but it's not a bike for a serious motorcyclist. Geez, put it up against a Ducati and it's like a biplane against an F-16.

But why anyone pays that kind of money for a Harley has me shaking my head in bewilderment. Go figure. Love is blind, and well, that's human.

At least with a Porsche or a Corvette, I can see the motivation for each type of purchase, (Porsche for build quality, legend, longterm durability, speed, power, prestige/ Corvette a great value for the buck) but a Harley you don't get much for your dollar but for some ephemeral myth with little basis in reality. It's not fair to even utter the name "Corvette" with Harley. A Corvette is at least very competent.

And on top of all that --Life isn't fair -- but business is business.

I think Corvette will be out of business soon, sad to say, or at least in bankruptcy, along with their parent, so if you like 'em, get one soon, because I don't think they are going to build them any better in the future. Possibly as GM disintegrates, Corvette will be bought and preserved separately. Hope so.

The auto industry is littered with the corpses of good cars run by bad businessmen, and with car companies building their best cars as their swan songs.

Hats off to Harley---best hat trick I've seen.

kyfdx · July 2005

I think Corvette will be out of business soon, or at least in bankruptcy, along with their parent, so if you like 'em, get one soon, because I don't think they are going to build them any better in the future.

I agreed with everything you said until this... Corvette is one car that they make money on.... No employee pricing needed to move them.. Even if GM goes bankrupt, they won't be going out of business..

regards,
kyfdx

Mr_Shiftright · July 2005

Well they'll have to go into Chapter 11 with the rest of GM won't they? I think the law will require it.

Do you really think they make much money on Corvette? They only sell about 30,000 a year...even if you pack $5K profit into each car, that's not a lot of money for the bleeding whale we call GM.

kyfdx · July 2005

Yeah.. but Chapter 11 isn't a negative for the business itself, just shareholders.. They have no reason to quit making the Corvette.. Any car that makes a profit is a good thing...

Mr_Shiftright · July 2005

Yes I understand that. I mean look at Chrysler, big comeback from Chapter 11, or 13, or Genesis 3:12 or whatever it was...but GM is in serious, serious trouble right now. I could see them having to shrink to about 1/4 their present size to survive. I'm no expert on the matter but the numbers being thrown out in the media are really staggering.

kevm14 · July 2005

Absolutely agree. I'm not a bike enthusiast, but I know enough to recognize Harley bikes as an image on 2 wheels. Like you said, they vibrate, they're heavy, noisy, slow, expensive and somewhat unreliable (but I think that's improving, or has). There is nothing, on paper, better about a Harley. That's why their success is so impressive. But a company's success due to the emotional strength of a product does NOT make that product technically superior. And that's where I find fault.

scott1256 · July 2005

Some brands offer unique ownership experiences. Ferrari, Porsche, Corvette and Harley all come to mind.

Mercedes also had the mystique for 30+ years with cars like the 6.3, 300C and 6.9. Currently DC seems blind to this aspect of Mercedes and the great brand is drifting without an anchor (how can Mercedes lose >$1B in a quarter?!).

I am a Mercedes fan since high school. I wish they would hire Merc1 or another traditionalist who understands what the name represents.

rjlaero · July 2005

The Porsche option list is one of the longest and most expensive for any car company. They should be profitable for what they charge.

You can build yourself an 80 grand V6 Cayene.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2005

Well if they can get it, why not? It's really a great SUV if you like that sort of thing...it rather easily outclasses everything else I think although maybe the new supercharged Range Rover would give it a run, don't know.

rroyce10 · July 2005

.. **They can't do ANYTHING better than any bike -- If you want to do any serious long distance driving, you'd better tear the engine down right off the showroom floor, would be my advice** .. .....l.o.l.......

Have you been a little too close to the Jack Daniels or the Chardonnay lately...?

Shifty, do you even ride ......? do you own a bike(s) ....?

** Geez, put it up against a Ducati** ......

A Ducati..? have you ridden' the ST3 or the 999.? ... gawd.! -- it makes you feel like the hunchback of Notre Dame and you'd probably have to have disk surgery if ya took a ride from Fresno to Oakland ..l.o.l... a speed demon, yes .. comfort and enjoyment.? I've had root canals that were more fun .. what next, Moto Guzzi..? ...l.o.l....

There's alot of nice bikes out there, the Yamaha Road Star Silverado, the Arlen Ness Victory Kingpin and even the BMW K 1200 LT (a little top heavy, but makes for a nice 900 mile road trip) .. but a Ducati...? .. they have the reliability of a K-Mart blue light special and you'd have better luck on the hunt for Red October than getting parts for them - and boy do them need em' ..... as far as the silly Orlando strewn Harleys story, you might see a few 74 panheads here and there, 3 or 4 out of 300,000 ain't so bad, considering half of those hackers only start-em' up every other Christmas ... besides, if you ride - you stop, it's a bike thing .. I guess I musta missed them and I drive that route all the time ..l.o.l....

But there is thousands of Harleys out there that have never seen a service day with 45/65/75,000 miles .. maybe thats why their CSI is 98% for 6 straight years, thats because they are known for their reliabilty ... not bad for "a thrown together, it doesn't work, it leaks oil and they don't work" American machine ...... like I said before, we need to get you out of that aquarium you live in.

But since this is a "Porsche - the world's best car" discussion, lets carry on ..... your Cayenne's haven't been doing so well, the reliability on these dudes have been killin' their "reputation" because these things are in the shop more times than a Saturday night hooker in Jail .. lots of factory buy-backs, lots of monetary "reimbursements" - and bunches of them going thru the auctions with tiny miles and the resale is dropping like a bad habit ... the better choice would be a Touareg, a lot less money and better reliabilty - for those that are so inclined ........

Terry

lemmer · July 2005

My broken down Harley story dismissed as silly...ouch. Maybe those guys just stopped on the side of the turnpike to take scenic pictures. Maybe my love of Ducatis just clouds my judgment.

Back on topic, I thought the Toureg had reliability and resale issues. Is the Cayenne so much worse? What kind of issues are they having?

Mr_Shiftright · July 2005

Yeah, Terry, I've ridden motorcycles for 25 years, every kind you can think of and as fast as one dare go, and I think Harleys are really mediocre bikes in every category you can name. Quite frankly, if I won one in a contest I'd sell it without even picking it up at the dealer.

To swing back to topic, to me the proof of any vehicle is what it can do, not the marketing or the hype or the "legend". That's all well and good, and it sells cars/bikes, but ultimately you have to put the tires to the pavement and when you do that cars like Porsche or Corvette or Ferrari shine brightly but bikes like Harley or cars like __________ show what they really are IMO -- there's "the best" and there's "the rest".

I guess what I'm saying is that Porsche achieved dominance in their niche by "results on the road" more than anything else. It's not the ONLY way to achieve a strong niche posiition, as Harley has proven.

Again, we can't confuse the two things: There's "best" business and "best" technically---ideally it would be great if a product has both, but they don't have to have both to succeed...the business end will suffice.

Hey Ducatis are awesome if you like light fast machines. I only picked them out to illuminate what you can do with two wheeled vehicles. I like ballerinas, you like overweight lady mud wrestlers, what can I say? :P

Cayenne: Terry could tell you more about Cayenne resale than I could, he is EGG-spurt on that subject. I can tell you they drive great and are the only SUV I can tolerate at the moment.

kyfdx · July 2005

Not that there is anything wrong with that....

lemmer · July 2005

That is just good-natured ribbing. An insult would be something more along the lines of "your girlfriend/wife is an overweight lady mud wrestler."

kyfdx · July 2005

Not that there is anything wrong with that....

fintail · July 2005

I like Yahama R1s because they look cool, especially in blue. I've never ridden one or driven any motorcycle. Somehow I still feel like no more of a poser than the average middle aged suit on a Harley.

I've noticed used Cayennes don't exactly hold their value like normal Porsches. Could be a bargain, or a nightmare.

lemmer · July 2005

I am a CPA. When my fellow CPAs started buying Harleys a few years back, I decided a Harley was no longer cool as it once was. I mean, these dudes drive 4-cylinder, automatic, beige Camrys to work every day.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2005

Oh, no, the Hells Accountants have rolled into town--LOL!

I know I know...only in America does it cost you $20,000 to be "a rebel".

Speaking of overweight lady mud wrestlers.....oh, never mind......

I have set such a poor example by straying off topic. I hope the Host will forgive me

scott1256 · July 2005

As XKE owners said in the 1960s.....

"When it is running there is nothing else like it on the road."

Mr_Shiftright · July 2005

I just like to LOOK at really good engineering and beautiful casting work. Crudity and brutality in machinery is not my thing...I know,I know we have those who like S2000 Hondas and those who like Hummers, and never the twain shall meet.

Porsche appeals to that kind of technology freak and engineering freak. You see that in their advertising especially. It's not a Consumer Reports and "great gas mileage" type of car, as say how Toyota markets the Prius.

Harley does a great job with noise and American flags. Seems to work. Must have to do with the 4th of July.

I find it very fascinating, to study how each manufacturer sees their own product, and what image they are trying to project.

I think Porsches image is very clear and so is Harleys. Some companies are kind of confused right now about that, and it hurts them I think.

Honda is good too. They are about being "green", being high-tech.

scott1256 · July 2005

sedan has the green light from Porsche CEO Wiedeking.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/07/27/Autos/porsche_panamera/index.htm?section=money_latest

I love the 911 and Boxster: I hope this is not another Cayenne type detour for Porsche.

andys120 · July 2005

Honda is good too. They are about being "green", being high-tech.

Actually Toyota's done a great job of convincing people they are a green / tech company
notwithstanding the fact that they make a full line of SUVs and Pickups that guzzle gas with the best of 'em.

andys120 · July 2005

Well I for one would rather drive a four door Porsche sedan than the Giant Pepper,
not that my wallet could stand either. :sick:

PF_Flyer · July 2005

FOUR wheels, not two!

rsholland · July 2005

I think we need a need thread here: "Real men ride______________. "

I have to agree with Shifty on this one. Harley's are bought purely for image. Look at the popularity of of the TV show "American Chopper." The bikes they build would drive most motorcyle engineers to drinking. It's all about style, and nothing about performance or comfort.

As a former motorcyclist with over 50K of biking behind me (and who still has his motorcycle license), give me a Honda ST1300 w/abs, or a BMW K1200 any day of the week to go on a trip. A Harley? Never will happen with me.

Bob

rsholland · July 2005

I think I will start new "biker " thread here in "News & Views." could lead to some interesting discussions.. So carry on this Harley vs. Porsche in "Real men ride______________. "

Bob

scott1256 · July 2005

image and brand power. This gives their 4 door sedan a running start.

But - I don't see how a 4 door sedan or the Cayenne SUV are part of Porsche's niche.

Maybe the poor resale value you see on used Cayennes reflects this, Terry.

kevm14 · July 2005

The bikes they build would drive most motorcyle engineers to drinking. It's all about style, and nothing about performance or comfort.

I know. It looks like they put the same engine on every bike, too. "Well, we detailed the head on this one a little differently..."

highender · July 2005

the new supercharged Range Rover Sport is nice, and handlles and accelerates better than the regular Rangie...

but still cannot compete with the cayenne turbo in terms of performance. It is slower, cannot reach 165 mph....takes longer to stop, and cannnot outhandle the cayenne.

But it sure is a nice piece of machine....Porsche should watch out...give better value, better fuell economy, better styling, better reliability....or else BMW and Merc and all others will catch up....

highender · July 2005

cayenne by Porsche.....that just hurts a lot of people's mental image and heart...

I agree....there are some issues with tire wear, electronics, and transmission smoothness....

but what a ride.....

I have had no electronic issues, no tranny problems...and love the engine. The vehicle satisfies the demands of a family of 4, while still indulging the driver in some spirited sportiness.....

the performance of the cayenne is :

acceleration: 0-60 in 5.2 sec for the turbo ( about the speed of a 1986 Lamborghini Countach S ) , 7.5 for the normally aspirated.( not bad for a SUV)

stopping: 60-0 in only 112 ft to 120 ft....better than many so called sports cars.

handling: 0.82 to 0.86 depending on tires....not bad and better than many cars..

With all the electronics in the cayenne, one expects that there would be some teething pains...but the vehicle should last a lot longer than any of the other cars out there....Hope they cure the reliability issues that happened to the few cars that have them....most are doing fine....and making big smiles on their drivers faces....

Mr_Shiftright · July 2005

Maybe I like the Cayenne because its engine is directly related to the engine of the Porsche 928, which is NOT as often rumoured by pagans and barbarians, as a derivation of the Mercedes 4.5 V-8. Not true not even a teeny weenie bit...but the Cayenne and 928 engines are definitely genetically linked, very much so.

rroyce10 · July 2005

... **Harley's are bought purely for image**

I've been riding since 75, so I've had Honda's, Harleys, Triumphs, Nortons, BSA's and Yamaha's (still drive the Yami and the Harley) .. but In the last 4/5 years I would hafta agree, they get bought for the "honor" ...

But also in todays car world, I don't see any difference in BMW, Benz or even Porsche ... let's be honest, most folks buy these cars for image, for the ego or for those little words said: "I drive a Bimmer" or "that's my E class" and lets not forget: "Yeppers, that my 911" .... I see it every minute of everyday, they're my customers ..l.o.l... ..

Most folks buy all kinds of things for the prestige, the ego rush .... do you think golfers spend $2,000 on a new set of Nikes, Callaways or Clevelands golf clubs because it will make their game better..? .. heeeeeck no.! .. it's because Tiger, Mickelson and Vijay use them and are the best in the world .. in the meantime, these are the same folks that will triple bogey every hole, they could use a shotgun and it wouldn't change their game -- but those clubs sure look good at the golf course .... do you think anything is different with cars, boats or bikes..? ...l.o.l.....

Terry :P

PS: I like the K1200, I put about 900 miles on one .. not particularly "my" comfort zone, but still a very very nice bike ....

Mr_Shiftright · July 2005

You know I would surrender my argument to you completly if we were talking solely about Benz and BMW as image machinery, but I have to dig in my heels with Porsche. I know so many Porsche owners who are great drivers and who race and who are so knoweldgable about the product that I really think the buyers who buy Porsche for image are a) in the minority and b) soon to give up the car.

You're not going to see "Benz Track Day" or "Lexus Club Driving School Session" one weekend a month, but you'll see it with Porsches all the time.

More than that, I'd bet you a really good lunch that Porsche owners own more second Porsches than BMW or Benz owners own second versions of their vehicles. (I don't mean hubby-wife, I mean one guy, two or three cars that are his own).

Also, a Porsche really is a MAN'S car---you do see ladies driving them and driving them well, but the ratio to male drivers is, also, I bet much more skewed than with BMW or Benz.

And what does all this mean?

I think it means that Porsche buyers know what they want and they know what the product is. They are "product-savvy" and loyal repeat-buyers.

rroyce10 · July 2005

...... I really think you're taking Porsche too seriously .....

Do I think the large minority knows the car and knows what it's all about.? - yes (sooner or later) .. most buyers have to know the car and all of it's intrinsic value's because they are very expensive to drive - not price wise, but service and maintenance wise .. but when I say the large minority, I would be thinking a 45/55% split ..

Is Porsche really a MAN'S car.? - I dunno about that, alot of woman have bought into the Cayenne .. that said, a lot of woman drive Yukons and their hubby's drive Vettes, so it's the same type scenario .... do some own more than one Porsche.? .. it's an "enthusiasts" car to the enth degree and if certain buyers don't get hammered in service work and understand the inconvenience, then they will come back and buy again .....

Owning a Porsche is very similiar to owning a Fountain or a Formula offshore boat ... when the weather is nice, it's firing on all cylinders, the travel area is empty and the comradory is great - then they are a joy .... drop some rain, add a little wind, get some 3/4ft waves and it's back to the dock .. same with a Porsche. The big difference is, a "real owner" could care less ... notice I said "owner" -- the other half only rent Porsche's until they decide to trade them in ...l.o.l......

Terry

kevm14 · July 2005

acceleration: 0-60 in 5.2 sec for the turbo ( about the speed of a 1986 Lamborghini Countach S )

I think it's funny that in an effort to make the Cayenne's performance seem exotic, you liken it to an 80s Italian supercar. You could have just said "about the speed of a 1998 Camaro Z28."

Porsche - the world's best car company.

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