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Economy Sedans (~$16k-$20k)

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Comments

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It's just a little strange though. Five sedans and a hatch. It's like C/D hasn't heard of the Jetta--and we know they have.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    The Rabbit is a better handling vehicle. Why test the Jetta with the extra weight and lesser utility of a trunk?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Because... the Jetta is a sedan?

    Oh, I get it... which car did C/D want to win the comparo, is that what you are implying?
  • d_hyperd_hyper Member Posts: 130
    Because they are testing sedans (also mentioned in the article text). Besides "Gotta have it" score, Rabbit outscored Mz3 because of trunk capacity. So...where's Mz3 hatch now? Furthermore, the whole article is amateurish with only few sentences describing each auto. From now on, I subscribe to Edmunds instead! ;)
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    I agree, they could have used the Base or 2.5 Jetta, but it is what it is. (In the end, if the Jetta was tested, it would have gotten the same 5 points as the Rabbit for trunk space, at 16 CU FT vs. the Mazda 3's 11.5.) There's never going to be the PERFECT comparison test for a multitude of factors - from fleet availability to feature content to price to personal preferences.... but overall, I think C/D did a VERY good job with this one.

    Edmunds.com comparison tests historically have left me much more perplexed than this one, though they've gotten better as of late. Still, the scoring is whacky.

    ~alpha
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Oh, I get it... which car did C/D want to win the comparo, is that what you are implying?

    I get it, you are implying that you did not want the VW to win and would have prefered the Jetta to be tested as it would be less likely to win.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I would rather that when a publication tests cars under rules they establish, they actually stick to those rules. Otherwise it raises a question as to WHY they chose to ignore the rules--e.g., testing a hatchback instead of the sedan version of the same car, when the test was for sedans.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Any Mitsu Lancer owners here?
    If so, did you cross shop Corolla, Elantra, Sentra, etc. before you purchased?
    Mitsubishi seems to have faded from the minds of car shoppers.
  • tsgeiseltsgeisel Member Posts: 352
    "So...where's the Mz3 hatch now?"

    With a self-imposed "limit" of 18k, there's no way they could have gotten a Mazda3 hatch to test, even stretching things as they did.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Mitsubishi seems to have faded from the minds of car shoppers.

    Probably because vehicle like the Lancer look dated when they debut. Honestly, can you tell me that the Lancer looks like a fresh design compared to these?

    Lancerimage

    Mazda 3
    image

    To me, the Lancer doesn't look any newer than this 13 year old Honda sedan. It's a dated looking design because of its very square flanks. The new pointy nose doesn't exactly flatter the car either, IMO.

    image
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Isn't a new Lancer due for 2008? Will be interesting to see what Mitsubishi, with their troubles, comes up with.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    A new Lancer has been needed for awhile, although I'm not sure of the due date. It is still making due with a 120 horsepower 2.0L engine.

    Is 120 hp the lowest in the class now?

    The only ones I can think of near that would be 126 hp (Corolla) and Focus (136 hp).
  • neile457neile457 Member Posts: 65
    I was very suprised that the Corolla didn't finish last, and shocked the Rabbit won! I didn't even know it was in the comparo, until I got to that page. Where was the Cobalt, Focus, and Caliber, though? Of course, all they would have done was keep the Sentra out of last place. Man, the old Sentra might have finished better than the new one. I also thought the new Elantra would have finished higher.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    If you'll check the opening pages of the article, they mention that none of the domestics could provide a manual transmission-equipped vehicle for the test.

    I doubt the ancient Focus and mediocre Cobalt would've faired much better than the Sentra or Corolla.
  • 1racefan1racefan Member Posts: 932
    I stopped by my local Mitsubishi dealer yesterday to look around - it is on my way home, and I have a friend that works in the service department. A transport truck had just arrived with a full load of the new Outlander, so I took a peek at a few after they were unloaded. The Outlander was pretty impressive looking - they had 1 fully loaded model, and several middle of the road and base models. Over all, fit and finish seemed nice, and it was a HUGE inprovement over the previous Outlander. I did not ask to drive one.

    I have seen a few spy pictures (on the web, and in magazines) of the supposed next generation Lancer, and it does appear to share several design cues with those of the next generation Evo (which pictures of the next gen Evo are all over the web). In my opinion, the pictures I have seen of the next gen Lancer, remind me of the previous generation Galant (that was pretty successful), only more aggressive looking. Depending on what they offer for powerplants for the Lancer, and what they offer for standard/optional features, it may be worth a look.

    Now that the new Outlander is out - I think that if Mitsubishi would "clean up" the looks of the current Galant and refine it a little, offer an AWD turbo 4cyl version of the Eclipse (and drop the V-6), redesign the Endeavor to make it a little larger with more off road capability (especially now that the Montero has been discontinued), bring out the next gen Lancer and Evo, and DROP THE RAIDER all together, they would see an increase in their sales.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    The new Lancer will be shown at the Detroit Auto Show.
    I wandered over to Mitsu dealer and looked around and I my feelings are that they have a pretty decent product line.
    Not as attractive as Toyota or Honda and better than Dodge, Kia or Chevrolet. Excluding trucks of course.
    The Lancer may be an old design, however, I would take it over a Cobalt any day.

    Interesting to note that the Nissan Sentra (pre-2007) was listed as one of the "least reliable" vehicles in it's latest reliability survey.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    In the small car category, the most reliable vehicles are the new Honda Fit and Toyota Yaris, the Honda Civic Hybrid, and the Toyota Corolla. The Chevrolet Cobalt, with 37 percent more problems than the average, scored the lowest among small cars, followed by the Nissan Sentra (2006), the Volkswagen Jetta (5-cyl.) and the Chevrolet Aveo.

    Hmmm...
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Actually, have you driven the Cobalt? I'm not sure why it gets SUCH a bad rap, I've found any that I've had competitive, though the one area where GM REALLY missed the boat is the pint size rear seat. What the hell were they thinking? Drive-wise, though, the Cobalt is pretty quick, handles well, rides decently, ergonomically correct, and comfortable. To my Steve Maddens, the brakes also feel better than your typical GM pedal (ABS), for whatever reason, crash scores with Side Curtain option are respectable, and prices are low.

    Sure, there are about 5 or 6 competing vehicles I'd buy first, but I'd put the Cobalt over the Mitsu.

    ~alpha
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Sure, there are about 5 or 6 competing vehicles I'd buy first, but I'd put the Cobalt over the Mitsu.

    I'm pretty sure I would too.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The highway ride on the Cobalt is pretty good I think and it has decent power. Also fuel economy isn't that bad--I got over 35 mpg on a 200-mile jaunt a few weeks ago. But the rear seat really is a joke (enough right there to rule it out of my garage), the driver's seat wasn't all that comfortable for me, and I think the controls are cheap-feeling and looking--although the instrumentaion is quite complete, with a nifty trip computer and, on the car I drove, XM radio. And of course OnStar is available.

    I'd put the Cobalt over the Lancer if only because I think Chevy will be around awhile, and I'm not so sure about Mitsubishi--at least in the U.S.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Actually, have you driven the Cobalt?

    Unfortunately, I've driven it extensively. Several of them.

    My problems with Cobalt-

    Horrible fit and finish on exterior panels. (Uneven fit between body panels)

    Uncomfortable seats.

    Cheap looking interior. (hard plastics, unatractive texture of the hard plastics, lousy fabrics, poor fit and finish)

    Very cheap feeling action of the switches/control stalks.

    Noisy engine.

    Noisy interior.

    Overall crappy interior ergonomics.

    Sloppy handling and the thunks and thumps and other noises from road imperfections were unforgivable. It neither handles well nor rides decently on anything other than a glass smooth road.

    Add to that the fact that it has the worst reliability of any current small car and you have a terrible car that likely sends buyers running away from GM as fast as they can when Cobalt owners buy their next vehicle.

    As to prices, I just checked (Carmax Kenosha) a comparably equipped Corolla LE compared to a Cobalt LT and the Cobalt is only $1,000 less than the Corolla. Best $1000 you could ever spend to buy the Corolla.

    Cobalt :sick: and the Lordstown, OH :sick: assembly are shining examples of all that ails GM. GM :sick: should be ashamed.

    As to the Lancer, yes the styling is outdated and it does not hold a candle to the Civic or Mazda 3, yet it is still IMO a better car than Cobalt and Caliber too.
  • eldainoeldaino Member Posts: 1,618
    why is everyone still playing the 'it was a Sedan only' comparo? Its not like the title of the aticle was 'ecomomy sedans' or anything. Besides vw doesn't consider the jetta to compete with these cars, they consider it thier midsize, it very easily goes over 18k similarly equiped and yes i have done so many a time, and the fact that vw's entry level vehicle is a hatch should make no difference if no one else offers one. And i don't know where everyone get that the mazda 3 hatch can be equipped similarly to the sedan under 18k, it can't. Again i've tried time and time again and it cant. The rabbit was a good pick for this comparo and its amazing how many people are sore over it.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Its not like the title of the aticle was 'ecomomy sedans' or anything.

    No, it was "COMPARED: SIX $18,000 FUEL-SIPPING SEDANS", smack dab on the cover of the magazine.

    I don't know if people are "sore" about this gaffe by C/D. More like, "Gee, if you set out to compare sedans that cost under $18k, why not actually do that?" And save the Rabbit for a comparo of economy hatchbacks. Because it's a hatchback. Not a sedan.

    P.S. You can get a Mazda3s sedan under $18k quite easily; it's called the Mazda3s Sport. Since it was a comparo of sedans under $18k, that's the model that should have been used IMO.

    P.P.S. Do you realize the base Jetta costs less than the base Rabbit 4-door?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    why is everyone still playing the 'it was a Sedan only' comparo?

    They are upset that a VW Rabbit took 1st place. If Rabbit finished last it would not be an issue. ;)
  • eldainoeldaino Member Posts: 1,618
    Backy we have had this conversation before. I have proven that you can't actually get the mazda for that price in hatch form and you know that the jetta you speak of is the value edition which is a real stripper compared to the jetta which offers the same features as these cars. I even told you that you could'nt get alloys on it until you moved up to the 2.5 and your best response was tire rack. And the little 'six fuel sipping sedans' on the cover (which was quite small) was not even the name of the article. Had i seen the whole 'we are comparing SEDANS' all over the article repeatedly then maybe it would be a bit more undertandable. But its not. big deal.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    They are upset that a VW Rabbit took 1st place. If Rabbit finished last it would not be an issue.

    Actually, I have more of a problem with them calling the Rabbit an "Economy" car in the first place, considering it gets worse mileage than a much larger, 118 more horsepower, vehicle. The VW isn't a fuel sipper relative to the compeition, but instead, it drinks gas likes it is dehydrated.

    C'mon, 22 MPG? That's no economy car. That's Crossover SUV mileage.
  • eldainoeldaino Member Posts: 1,618
    Just went to mazdausa.com again. See for yourself backy. Don't even build it; just put your cursor over the base 3 hatch and you'll be happy to see that it starts (after destination) over 18,000. The rabbit four door (after destination) is still under 18k. :) Thank you!
  • eldainoeldaino Member Posts: 1,618
    Power makes up for it. I regularly average 27 mpg on my rabbit. Mixed spirited driving.
  • germancarfan1germancarfan1 Member Posts: 221
    The Rabbit averaged 24MPG, the Elantra 28MPG. WOW ;0

    The savings in depreciation you gain by driving the Rabbit will more than offset the ~$200/yr you might save driving the Elantra.

    Buy the car you enjoy driving the most, not the car with "promised" fuel savings.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Power makes up for it. I regularly average 27 mpg on my rabbit. Mixed spirited driving.

    Still not a good excuse when cars with 100+ more horsepower are getting better mileage estimates than the smaller Rabbit.

    I average 30 MPG in my Accord (mixed suburban driving), with similar power, and a much larger interior.

    My point, is that the Rabbit isn't ecnomical compared with others in its class, power or not. My point ISN'T that it is a poor automobile.

    I would think that a large number of people who shop small cars don't shop because they want a little car, but because they like the mileage increase that comes with the downsize, as well as the lower entry price (I say this b/c my people like grandparents like Civics because they are cheaper to buy and maintain (including fuel cost)than larger cars; NOT because they wanted a small car).. The Rabbit doesn't deliver on the mileage front.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    How about:

    The Rabbit averaged 24 MPG, the Civic averaged 33 MPG. 9 extra miles on a gallon is a lot when you drive 25,000 miles a year, and are on a budget.

    And the Honda isn't going to depreciate like a Hyundai. Also keep in mind, that the Hyundai has a lower entry price, so you save a good deal of cash up front.

    If 7.7 sec to 60 MPH isn't fast enough for you, you should be driving a sports car. For me, 7.7 sec to 60 MPH combined with 30/40 MPG sounds pretty darn good.

    By the way, we all get it by now; you hate Hyundai. That's been established long before in earlier posts.
  • eldainoeldaino Member Posts: 1,618
    I like smaller cars. I'm also partial to hatchbacks. So there is that. The accords engine is also smaller than the rabbits. Four as opposed to five 2.4 as oppossed to 2.4. The sticker on the accord is not worlds off with the vw. From my extensive experience with hondas, their stickers seem to be a little less truthful. The rabbit gets decent mileage when compared to cars with with similar engine size/displacement and WEIGHT. The rabbit is one heavy little thing. Don't get me wrong i don't think the gas is a mazing, but real world experience has shown me it really isn't that horrible. I came to the rabbit after owning an 06 civic with its famed 40mpg sticker. It really is not the end of the world. At least not for me. The performce of the engine it very nice. Liked the civic a lot. Like the rabbit more. Different strokes different folks. Peace.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    From our extensive experience with Hondas (17 since 1990), I'd say you are right; we routinely get above sticker estimates. Last trip I took to the gulf coast, I got 39 MPG in my Accord. That's 5 MPG higher than the sticker estimates I will see. I have never had a tank as low as the City estimate states (24), the lowest tank I have run was 27 MPG (summer, A/C, ATL traffic).

    You are right, the Accord's 2.4 is smaller, but no less powerful than the Rabbit; it weighs more as well (3,200 lbs vs. about 3,000 for VW).

    I realize that many VW faithful will never change their mind,nor will many Honda faithful. And I really wasn't trying to get that to happen.

    My simple point is, and has been, that the Rabbit doesn't get great mileage when compared to others in its size class, including those with simlar acceleration. The weight is just a self-induced penalty, IMO. It weighs like a midsize, but has room like a compact, and in exact testing conditions, the EPA says combined the Rabbit will get mid 20s, while the Civic will get mid 30s.

    If you want a hatch though, there is no Civic for you (only the miniscule Fit). Glad you are happy with your bunny!

    I can't help but wonder how the Rabbit would perform with the Honda drivetrain in it...
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Why do you say "see for yourself"? I said the Mazda3s sedan can be had for under $18k. The hatch is a whopping $140 over that.

    The Jetta starts well under $18k, very well equipped. Don't take my word for it, see for yourself. Thank you. :)
  • eldainoeldaino Member Posts: 1,618
    Well, although i don't really think the rabbit decided it had to be that heavy, it just is, i am very happy with it. The epa's tests to me don't mean an exact figure that i play by, just a sort of middle ground. I have gotten better than average mileage on my rabbit and, like i have mentioned before, i used to own a honda civic ex (06) and was very happy with it, but i'm much happier with the rabbit. I'm still a honda fan don't get me wrong, but vw has found a way into my heart, and i have grown quite fond. I'm glad you have been rocking that mileage in your accord! I wish that honda did have a civic hatch, the euro civics that come as 3 and five doors are great, and i think that the last generation si was great, but it would have been so much better as a regular part of the civic lineup as oppossed to an si.

    I don't think the rabbit would perform very well with a honda drivetrain, i think they make some of the best engines ever, but the vee dub needs some torque. Any mileage benefits would be counteracted by the weight. Ofcourse i'm thinking of a honda engine in a comparable car (like the civic) being put in it. Stick the accords engine in it and it would be a little slower, (slightly i would imagine) but have a bit better mileage than it has now.
  • eldainoeldaino Member Posts: 1,618
    With regards to the mazda, you can get the s sport under 18k, just barely, but it's not equipped the same as the rabbit; it at least lacks a stabilization program. But i'm tired of being nitpicky about trim levels and all that kind of stuff, i'm still glad the rabbit won, you sill still have something to say about and thats fine! Thats what this place is for. Oh and one more thing : you can get the value edition jetta for around 16, but stick alloys and the esp on it (features that the rabbit has standard) and it goes well over eight. Move up to the 2.5 and its 19k. Your welcome. :P
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You can opt for the ridiculous $1450 17" alloy wheel upgrade for the base Jetta if you want. Me, I'd go with ESC and stick with the base wheels or get some nice-looking 16" alloys aftermarket, resell the steel rims, and be out under $18k + T&L.
  • sandman46sandman46 Member Posts: 1,798
    I read the article when it came in the mail and was also surprised to see a hatch included in a sedan comparo article. Why didn't they just use the Jetta for comparison purposes. Seems like a no brainer to me.
    It was nice to see an article about economy cars and I was happy to see both of our cars included. We're very satisfied with them and feel that we have very reliable & fun transportation. Was also impressed with the Elantra and liked everything about it except the old looking dash. Electroluminescent gauges like on the Corolla would give the Elantra that "wow" factor as far as I'm concerned. Would also have given it a more upscale feeling also. Maybe in the 4th year tweaking Hyundai might include this feature.

    The Sandman :)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Electroluminescent gauges like on the Corolla would give the Elantra that "wow" factor as far as I'm concerned. Would also have given it a more upscale feeling also. Maybe in the 4th year tweaking Hyundai might include this feature.

    Maybe; I'd look for it in the Sonata next (the Azera Limited is currently the only Hyundai with these type of gauges).
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    What is "old looking" about the Elantra's dash? What would a "new looking" dash look like? One with plood all over it like on the Corolla? Or maybe one that looks like it's from a low-budget space opera like on the Civic?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I think sandman may have been talking about the 2001-2006 version, but I'm not sure. I like the newer version MUCH better, although I don't think everyone is giving the Civic a chance. I found the location of the speedometer in the Civic to be very intuitive, clear, and easy to see; especially when driving in a trafficky time of day. Very little "eyes off the road" time with that layout.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I can live with the Civic's speedo. But the dash overall doesn't impress me. It's as if Honda was trying a bit too hard to qualify the Civic for Star Fleet.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    I can't live with the Civics dash, traditional gauges are so much better.
    Civic evokes memories of 1980's K-Car electronic talking dashes. I was never so unfortunate to own an 80's K-Car, though I did drive a few of them.
  • sandman46sandman46 Member Posts: 1,798
    What does this mean? I think it's time for me to take a break from this forum. It's comments like these that have changed the tone in Edmunds forums over the last few years and have ruined Edmunds for me. Maybe a break wil do me good.
    Enjoy your rides folks...I know I do. Good luck and G-d bless folks.

    The Sandman...signing off.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I can't live with the Civics dash, traditional gauges are so much better.

    How are "traditional gauges" better?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    "Low budget space opera" means a sci fi show such as Farscape. Sorry you were offended by someone trying to express their honest opinion on a car with a little humor. I suppose you were offended by the folks at C/D saying things like this about the Civic's dash:

    Overly sculpted dash panel, near-and-far instrument layout

    The driver looks out over a ridiculous landscape

    I hate everything but the way it drives

    They also compared the Civic's cockpit to a "space capsule."

    Compared to these, saying the dash looks like something out of a low-budget space opera seems pretty tame to me. :surprise:
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    I don't see ANY problem with the comments he left about the Civic. After all, it's called an OPINION, something that everyone has, and is free to share on a car forum such as this one. No profanity was used, and it wasn't to offend anyone in particular.

    I happen to dislike the new Civic. The dash indeed looks like it's from a bad sci-fi movie, and looks just as big as the dash from the "dustbuster" Lumina APV. The windshield hangs out way too far over the hood, and it throws the entire car out of proportion. I like how it looks from the back, but as I walk toward the front, it slowly gets worse.

    But again, it's all IMHO. :)

    For my $$$, I'd take the Mazda3.
  • eldainoeldaino Member Posts: 1,618
    is one of the things that i DO miss about my civic. I personally don't think it looks like 'low budget space opera." More like 'she'll make .5 past light speed biatch."

    I love the civics dash. And there are more real world people who think so than a couple of forum goers who don't.

    Sorry sandman. See ya later.
  • eldainoeldaino Member Posts: 1,618
    too bad c/d didn't discuss the possibilities of the cars prices when opting for aftermarket rims.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    Seems hard to find today, but I like big, simple gauges that you can read during the day in bright sunlight without the need for any backlight, because in bright sunlight, any backlit gauges are going to be hard to read, especially for drivers wearing sunglasses. Get rid of the deep tubes and give me some plain flat dials anyday! I think the engineers should design the gauges for bright sunlight for drivers with sunglasses, not for the night-time coolness factor.
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