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Comments
People need to lighten up.
If a test drive in a Toyota disappoints, that person would try a Honda next, then maybe a Nissan, then a Mazda.
I don't Subaru would even be on the same short list.
You seem to want to throw everyone in two categories - the rich are douches and the non-rich are boring wannabes.
People are a bit more diverse than you think. :lemon:
The plane-wing grille is being phased out.
coarse engines
You're comparing a beat up old $16k Impreza your relative owns to an six-figure AMG, not exactly a fair fight.
Plus, Toyota engines are about as smooth as they come yet you'd never acknowledge that as one of their strengths.
I was comparing a brand new 21K 2009 Impreza a co-worker bought to just about anything. Even when new, one can tell the out of tune lawnmower sensation is just around the corner. I don't know if that's really a good thing. Different is good, when the difference is good.
But really, Subaru is a lot less nichey than it used to be. In the Northeast and Northwest, it is every bit as normal and regularly seen as other brands. I've never known a time when a Subaru was really odd - I remember them being common sights here back in the 80s.
And FWIW, it doesn't take money to be a [non-permissible content removed], nor lack of money to be boring
The evolution now is merely to phase out the wings that hold up the Pleiades logo. No drastic departure, and why should they? 2 years consecutive record sales for the brand.
You're funny, how do you explain Subaru's success? You hate the designs, hate the marketing, and hate the engines. Perhaps the public does not agree with your opinion?
I like the boxer sound, it's distinctive, has natural second order balance, no balance shafts (or added rotating mass) needed. To each his own.
Let's go back to your Venza argument - competitors realized people were abandoning body-on-frame trucks in droves and Subaru was in the right in the hot spot - crossovers. They offered the high vantage point, cargo room, and traction of the trucks, with few of the trade-offs.
Venza has not succeeded, though. It was planned before Toyota owned part of FHI, but it failed to steal away any Outback sales, in fact Outback sales grew significantly.
So that crushes the theory that the buyers are the same - clearly they're not. Subaru buyers are loyal, and have not been buying Venzas and Crosstours. So much so that both of those competitors are bombing in an ugly way.
Also, Nissan Rogue hasn't hurt Forester sales, they also hit record levels last year. RAV4 and CR-V existed before the Forester, but Subaru sales have grown steaily since 1995, before either of those were born, also.
That might upset the die-hards
As much as we asked for the WRX prior to 2002, we didn't really like the influx of, well, let's say less mature owners. You may feel the same way if a bunch of newbie C250 owners join your club who don't even know what a fintail is.
The die-hards bought WRXs too, though. That's how they more than doubled sales. New customers = growing pains. And you can't say WRX stole Civic and Corolla sales, those buyers are also very different. Go to a NASIOC meeting and all you're hear about Honda is a lack of torque. Toyota does not come up in conversation at all.
A lot of people defend the Porsche Cayenne, too. Small manufacturers can't survive in small niches only. Subaru had to branch out, but that doesn't make them Toyota.
Speaking of upsetting the die-hards, and lot of them are upset that the BRZ will not even offer AWD. This is still controversial. I feel mixed - love the light RWD affordable funster idea, hate that it will draw in the demographic that watches Formula D.
Juice - I'll disagree here. The Venza sells 50K+ units a year. For a niche vehicle, it does just fine IMHO.
It hasn't stolen sales from the Outback but I feel that isn't it's target. It's target is to keep exisiting Toyota buyers from defecting to Subaru. IMHO, the reason Toyota invested in Subaru was to get cheap, quick access to manufacturing capacity in the US.
Do good sales come from sound design or simply appealing to the masses? The masses don't care much about visual details unless it is *too* weird. Too bland is just fine - Corollas and Camrys don't sell because of timeless good looks, and neither do Subies.
I already explained Subaru's success - running for the mainstream. A few new segments. Making vehicles both blander looking and larger. Some product differentiation with AWD. Not a beauty issue.
"Hate" is an awfully strong word, almost kind of a red herring :shades:
Subaru is gaining buyers, so it must be gaining them from somewhere - mainstream brands. And mainstream buyers who will now go to Subie because Subie is now in fact mainstream - in size and looks especially.
Where did WRX buyers come from then? Most of them probably weren't new to owning a car. Boy racers who came to the WRX in droves came from somewhere. Newbie C250 buyers will generally be leasers and/or people who don't become involved with any club - not loud people, not really apples to oranges. They might be trading from a similar base 328i or IS250 or something.
And I agree about the (will it ever be seen? can we hype a platform more?) BRZ, no AWD, hard to see the point of existing under the brand.
50k and yet Outback sales are still up, which shows they're different buyers.
IMHO, the reason Toyota invested in Subaru was to get cheap, quick access to manufacturing capacity in the US.
SIA is chugging away building Camrys.
Good question, but my answer is no.
If we look at twins like the Sonata and Optima, the former outsells the latter even though Kia has bigger incentives, and has a nicer design. Give me the Kia between those two.
On that note, Automobile named Schreyer man of the year.
Back to Subaru, they have not gone too far mainsteam so as to scare off their traditional buyer base, though I wonder if a RWD car will cause that to start when the BRZ launches.
Funny side note ...
Saw the guy who lives next door at a dinner party a mutual friend was hosting, he drives an 11 year old Volvo Cross Country and his wife a w211 E350.
Well, we're talking about a renter who lives across the street, his car was vandalized twice. I comment that it's surprising to see a Benz broken in to not once but twice, given they are generally secure, and he says "Yeah but that's not a real Benz".
I bust out laughing.
It was amusing to see such a lack of acceptance for the Baby Benz. Perhaps Mercedes needs to bring the B-class here if only to remove the stigma of that model being entry level.
And to come full circle and bring us back on topic, perhaps he did not like the new C hatchback's ad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5fzQRO4V_w
I guess there are relative levels of mainstream, but IMO Subaru really isn't an off in left field quirky choice anymore. It's another car. BRZ better look a lot different than it's Toyota twin or the Subaru nuts might not fall for it.
New C coupe isn't a hatch, it's a trunkback. Saw a C63 coupe at the dealer a couple weeks ago, I am not a fan as it isn't a hardtop, but it seems like a good amount of German muscle for the money, not as douchetastic as an M3, kind of a sleeper. Not my first choice, but if I got one for free...
I am surprised that ad hasn't been complained about here, I mean, how many people actually hook up chains to their sedan and do burnouts to make it a coupe? Very unrealistic and immature :shades:
The mainstreamers have given up on manuals, for the most part. Especially with the upgrade engines.
C63 is $60 grand, ouch. Wait 5 years, let some Yuppie absorb 2/3rds of the depreciation, and get one for $20k.
I can't see why an IS250 or G25 etc would have any better rep
They don't. The Lexus has it even worse because that direct-injected engine has carbon build-up issues that the IS350 does not have. First thing people will recommend is to step up to the 350.
The only thing the G25 did was allow Infiniti to bump the price on the G37.
Oddly enough, both are 6 cylinder engines, even though a lot of people (even enthusiasts) don't realize that.
Speaking of Subie, one just drove by my window. An old late 70s wagon with a roof rack and fog lights on the roof. I think that's the image some still want to see from it, even if they are a middle aged middle manager with 2.5 kids, a backbreaking mortgage, insane wife, and otherwise vanilla ice milk tastes :shades:
Funny thing, I am certain I see at least twice as many IS250 than IS350.
They have plenty of manuals. Our 98 Forester and our 02 Legacy were manuals, and we didn't have to special order those. Ironically we did order our 09 auto to get the color/options we wanted.
Despite supply issues I see Fitz has 10 Legacy/Outback and 5 Foresters.
And the funny thing is 2/3rds of their Imprezas are manuals. 67%!
In fact all WRXs are manuals.
They march to the beat of a different drummer. I keep saying it, eventually you'll listen.
middle aged
Correct, but that's younger than Toyota owners.
middle manager
I'm a worker bee, we have a special ed teacher, a college professor, graphics artist, naval officer, wall street trader, nah. Sorry, incorrect.
with 2.5 kids
Yes, but let's be specific - the 0.5 kid is a dog.
backbreaking mortgage
Actually, incorrect. Subaru owners do not live beyond their means. Actually, the opposite is true, we could afford a fancier car, but choose not to.
insane wife
Incorrect. Mine earns her money freelancing. Paid for our wedding when she was earning peanuts. Not what you think at all.
otherwise vanilla ice milk tastes
Again, nope. Rocky Road is more like it.
You got the age and the number of kids but that's about it.
15 manuals out of what inventory? I'd be interested to see what local lots are like - as Subie is big here, but not enough to search :shades:
Wasn't there or isn't there an automatic JDM WRX?
I still think mainstream Japan is Toyota, Honda, Nissan, then Mazda, in that order.
Mitsu, Suzuki, and Subaru are different, though only Subaru has thrived of those 3.
15 manuals out of what inventory?
15 * 250 equals 3750. Less than that, for certain! :P
Still going strong, 13 years now.
At least in my region, I would compare Subaru with Mazda much easier than with Suzuki or Mitsu. I know multiple people who own Subies, none who own those others.
I don't think Subaru went mainstream. Mainstream came to them. AWD is in fashion. Subaru was already there, before it was trendy.
To me, though, mainstream means FWD transverse I-4 engined sedans. Subaru is about as far from that as you can get. That doesn't mean some former mainstream owners won't switch over, but that's not the core, loyal Subaru buyer.
Subaru's best selling models are the Forester and the Outback. Go back 40 years, and that's what they've been known for - wagons with 4 wheel traction and as you would say the characteristically "coarse" engine. That's still true today. The DNA is intact (hence the BRZ controversy).
Compare to the other boxer engine makes VW and Porsche. The Beetle uses a mainstream layout now, transverse in-line 4 that is front mounted now. Totally mainstreamed.
Porsche's 2 best selling models are a fat SUV and an ugly sedan. Where is the engine in the back? The air cooled boxer? They are so far from their DNA it's sad.
Porsche sold out and uses VW platforms and engines. They sold their soul completely. Sure they still make cool cars, but those are not the best selling models (like Subaru).
Subaru has remained indy and stuck to the simple formula of AWD wagons til this day. If they HAD sold out, you'd see Toyota's in-line engines in their models, or worse, Toyota's AWD systems, but you don't. To cooperate they had to build a whole new platform, and heck, Subaru engineered it and will build it at their plant!
As mentioned above the only thing the partnership has meant so far is that Hoosiers are now building Camrys at SIA, and it's not even on the same line Subaru uses.
Going forward I'm hoping Toyota can offer then Entune and not much else. I think they'd be wise to remain completely separated as they are now.
I still think they should have figured out a way to make the BRZ AWD, though.
Volvo moved on to sporty so Subaru picked up some of that bunch. Like my sister who loved her old Volvo wagon with the sharp corners. She's in a Forester now. But it looks like Subaru is following the Volvo trend now with more "stylish" rides.
I'm shopping for a tweed jacket with leather elbow patches for running around in my old Outback this winter. And a pipe.
The niche brands are generally going to be under 100K units a year. Mitsu, Suzuki, Volvo, Jaguar, etc. occupy that space. Mitsu's got the most volume in that group and will probably just crack 80K units for 2011.
In fact, based on YTD sales through October there's no brand with sales that fall between Mitsu (70K though October) and Mazda (209K through October).
Like in the recent "daddy-daughter" commercial, what is that thing she's sitting in, an Accord? :shades:
Beetle is apples to oranges - old layout was always oddball and simply wouldn't be possible in such a car today. Same for Porsche - they need profits in this new age where the next quarter is as far as anyone looks, and their suits understand the wealth gap has grown in this globalized mess, along with the ideal of irresponsible conspicuous consumption by the beneficiaries - who love the Cayenne. Money talks and BS walks, same for a sportscar company or for a once-niche brand like Subaru.
BRZ not being AWD is a sellout chapter for a brand that is less of a niche than ever before, and becomes more distant from the "niche" label and more embracing the mainstream with each new model.
They're still building boxer powered AWD wagons, just like 40 years ago.
Mitsu is at a turning point, gotta see if the iMiev catches on. It's tough to get volume in the EV segment, but the $7500 incentive represents the biggest discount in terms of %. If states help, and more work places offer free EV charging stations (my garage has them now), it could prove popular, but can they build very many?
My question is, what's their identity?
It's just that it's hard to imagine the EVO and iMiev in a show room right next to each other, without even a hybrid to bridge the gap. Can't really sell a green image convincingly.
I guess they could go for a "tech" image, but they would need a Sync/Entune type system, and maybe make it standard.
Aren't they partners with Peugeot and Citroen now?
What about a C6 to fill the Galant's slot?
They need fresh product. The partnership with Chrysler sucked the life out of them.
By that thinking, hasn't everyone sold out?
BMW X6.
Mercedes will follow suit.
Audi dropping manuals from the S line.
Maserati is doing a crossover.
The end is nigh.
Most improved player?
That is SOOOOOOOOO much better than the cheesy JLo commercials, which have resulted in such low demand that they laid off a hundred workers at the engine plant in Mexico.
Germans sold out when they stopped offering lowline models here and only offering us fairly loaded (by Euro standards) cars. The useless douchey SUVs, automatic-only policies, and similar are just icing on the cake, or more ways to prove that the money had by the new rich wasn't gained via logic and intelligence.
Funny though, for Maserati, the new darling of the trophy wife and Wall St criminal set, a crossover almost seems natural, as those demographics love them.
Still, it cost peanuts. Imagine dropping off a 9 year old at Elementary School, the kids would think his dad was a hit man.
My name ends in a vowel, I'd just need the pinky ring.
To be honest, few people care if Subaru's engine is a boxer or an I4 just like few care if BMW uses an I6 vs. a V6. They just want an engine that starts reliably and preferably has enough power to get them to CostCo and back.
Subaru became mainstream. Perhaps it was due to some of Subaru's differentiating tech becoming mainstream, but I'd argue it's where Subaru wanted to go. Their commercials show it; they don't play up features specific to Subaru, they don't make as much fuss as they used to over AWD, they don't even go after an appearance of ruggedness.
As to Mitsu's identity, I think you're on the right track with them going for a tech image. An EV contributes to that and Mitsu has a long history of offering more than the average number of gismos. Evo & i coexisting? The Corvette & Cruze Eco coexist on Chevy lots & the F-350 Super Duty & the Fusion Hybrid on Ford lots so what's the big deal?
And hybrids are coming. How about a midsize plug-in hybrid CUV? 30 mile EV range then normal hybrid mode? Effective 141 MPG? Even if it only gets half that in the production unit it'd still be by far the most economical to drive CUV.
The i will be the least expensive mass-market EV in the US. Something like $6 or 7 grand cheaper than the Leaf. Unique looks, which will definitely be a love-it-or-hate-it thing but it will grab attention. It's RWD which is also unique in the US EV world.
Mitsu has FUSE ( http://www.mitsubishifuse.com ) for their hands-free system. It's a little basic right now but can always be expanded.
Peugeot & Citroen have rebadged the Outlander. From what I read they're also going to sell the i and there may be other model sharing, but the talks back in 2009 about the companies buying into each other fell through in early 2010.
They do need a "new Galant". They will remain niche unless they can offer a midsize sedan that's segment-competitive (which the old Galant was not). I've been saying they should rebadge the Kizashi but maybe they have something else up their sleeve like a hybrid-only platform.
Agreed.
few care if BMW uses an I6
Let's see how they react to turbos with fewer cylinders, though. Or worse - FWD. That's a paradigm shift.
midsize plug-in hybrid CUV
If the old Escape hybrid can do it ... I like that design, just ditch the clear lights everywhere, it looks like a black & white photo.
My wife had a Mirage, and I did look at a Galant VR-4 AWD, too. Then they went FWD/V6, directly targeting the giants, without the resources those companies had.
Subaru never took them head on like that.
Wonder how they'll market that.
Kinda looks like a Subaru Impreza fell from 1,000 feet and landed directly on top of a C-class.
It's just a rendering, and less offensive than a ZDX or X6, FWIW.
The G won't be able to live forever, either.
There will likely be an AMG version, too.
It almost looks more Venza-ish than X6-ish.
Dunno, could have been better, what do you guys think? Give us a Ronin-style chase scene, at least.
Is anyone else disappointed in the exhaust note? A Boss 302 sounds better.
Exhaust notes sometimes don't seem to translate perfectly to video, and can be subjective. I didn't hear anything bad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgC4WeVAUDs
Mercedes should have included a chase scene, at least.
Love it!
Racy, sexy, bites you back, a little dangerous. Very cool ad.
I like the subtle scorpion tramp stamp on the back of her neck.