Also, I love how Ford buying back rusted-out minivan axles is an act of good will, yet Toyota doing the same thing is suddenly clandestine.
Double standard, much?
Nice try, BIG difference. Ford is buying vehicles that they admit are defective. Toyota is buying vehicles suspected of UA and claiming there is nothing wrong with them. So why buy them back if they believe there is not a problem? Just possible there is a problem and they want to bury the evidence. Toyota has done that several times before according to their testimony in the Congressional hearings.
Oh, yeah I could see how that irony would be laughable! All manufactures have recalls, just recently Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, Honda, GM, and now BMW have had recalls. It affects everybody.
Ever since the Toyota fiasco late last year all the manufacturers got scared and are going recall happy now!
we've been clamoring to hear, or read about regarding Toyota's SUA problem? Hey, juice, what'd'ya make a this story below? Do you think they're on ta something? I am still one year out from test driving a 2012 Scion FR-S and I am very impressionable regarding researching possible flaws in the Toyota product line. Mitsubishi has turned out to be rock solid and my favorite bodystyle of all time, that being my 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS. Need I mention the 10 year and 100,000 mile Warranty that Finbarr O'Neil brought to Mitsubishi when he left as CEO at Hyundai several years ago. Oh, Mitsubishi's Corporate ruling arm just made it abundantly clear what I have already been telling you guys, that they are here for the duration. The i-MiEV is getting a lengthening and a breadthening to accomodate the larger than life American electric car purchasers, thank goodness.
But in a series of field reports from 2006 to 2010 involving Toyota Camrys, technicians from Hong Kong confirmed unintended acceleration in cars they tested while ruling out faulty floor mats or gas pedals, the lawsuit said.
Moreover, the acceleration glitches were duplicated without the vehicle's diagnostic equipment detecting a malfunction.
"American version" of Mitsubishi's 2012 i-MiEV all-electric car
The i-MiEV will cost $30,000 USD and qualifies for a BO "green car" rebate. They're stretching the jelly bean to accommodate our plump preserves.
Toyota secretly bought back from U.S. consumers vehicles it found with speed-control defects as part of a strategy to hide unintended-acceleration problems from safety regulators and the public, a revised lawsuit claims.
"The new complaint also cites internal company records documenting instances in which Toyota Motor Corp technicians or service managers replicated speed-control problems like those reported by customers.
And it says the company's confirmation of at least one clear-cut case of sudden unintended acceleration was concealed rather than reported to federal auto safety regulators.
Toyota acknowledged in a statement on Thursday that it has repurchased vehicles from customers who complained of unintended acceleration but did so to conduct "further engineering analysis" on the cars.
However, the company said its technicians have never been able to replicate those "acceleration concerns nor found any related issues or conditions in these vehicles."
The company says many unintended acceleration cases stem from driver error and has denied the existence of a hidden flaw in its electronic throttle system, as the lawsuit suggests.
But the revised lawsuit challenges those contentions by pointing to some of the company's own communications, including those in which Toyota technicians said they had reproduced engine surges like those reported by consumers.
In examples cited, the precise cause of unintended acceleration experienced during test drives remained unknown.
But in a series of field reports from 2006 to 2010 involving Toyota Camrys, technicians from Hong Kong confirmed unintended acceleration in cars they tested while ruling out faulty floor mats or gas pedals, the lawsuit said.
Moreover, the acceleration glitches were duplicated without the vehicle's diagnostic equipment detecting a malfunction.In a separate 2009 case, service manager described in a company memo as "trustworthy and reliable" experienced an unexplained burst of acceleration while test-driving a Toyota Tacoma. The vehicle raced from 70 miles per hour to 95 miles per hour in seconds with "no pedal contact" from the driver. Floor mats were properly secured, according to the lawsuit.
######
So are we to assume these attorneys just lied in a court document about having documents from toyota that toyota actually did replicate the problem? All those attorneys lied for the class suit?
good additional information on this. This makes one wonder what else Toyota knows about this SUA problem, just like old times. However, from what I've read these problems are occurring in automatic trannied Toyota's, even the Prius brake issues obviously occurring in automatic-trannied Prius', the Prius is only offered with an automatic transmission AFAIK.
But in a series of field reports from 2006 to 2010 involving Toyota Camrys, technicians from Hong Kong confirmed unintended acceleration in cars they tested while ruling out faulty floor mats or gas pedals, the lawsuit said. Moreover, the acceleration glitches were duplicated without the vehicle's diagnostic equipment detecting a malfunction.In a separate 2009 case, service manager described in a company memo as "trustworthy and reliable" experienced an unexplained burst of acceleration while test-driving a Toyota Tacoma. The vehicle raced from 70 miles per hour to 95 miles per hour in seconds with "no pedal contact" from the driver. Floor mats were properly secured, according to the lawsuit.
This is the type of information I have been clamoring for for months in these Edmund's Toyota 'News and Views' threads. What else can anyone find out about this Toyota SUA possible problem? Need a large Diane Sawyer expose on this. sharonkl, where ya at?
Toyota provided a fix - replacement pedals, which have caused complaints to plunge by 80%.
And you consider 80% good? That means they are still getting 20% as many complaints of SUA.
And what would you expect Ford to do if no parts are available? I think buying the vehicle they cannot fix is generous. Especially if it is way past warranty. And if a person moves to snow country I am sure they will be covered. I really think that is grasping at straws. Ford says the car is a PO rusty crap, we will buy it back at fair market value. Toyota says we will buy your Camry back even though there is nothing wrong with it. If that don't sound fishy to you, it should.
yeah, Toyota should give them job banks and limit their job roles so they can sit around for a few hours waiting for the specialists to arrive....THAT did the US nameplates a lot of good!
I think what we need to look at, is how Toyota treats their employees in the USA. We are all guilty of buying products made with slave and child labor from a dozen countries around the World. I talked to a Toyota employee in Indiana last week. He was very positive about working for them in Princeton Indiana. I think as Tlong posted our domestic automakers have been dragged down by the UAW and all the work rules and unsustainable benefits. I think Toyota has been able to offer a balanced working environment in the USA and has expanded as well. Look for the Domestics to continue their cutting back production in the US.
I'm all for a healthy skepticism. I can accept people skeptical of Toyota, they deserve it.
What I don't get is why people give Ford a pass. Also, I don't think people understand that hiding problems until you figure it out and get it under control is TOTALLY ROUTINE in the auto industry. Everyone does that - even BMW. They'll replace your fuel pump - if they HAVE to. Sure. Ford will buy back your rusty axle, if it breaks and if you live in certain states.
Capitalism is all about maximing profit, share holder value. Not ethics or honesty.
You go to the hardware store and buy a 2 by 4.
Ever measured one?
It's 1.5" by 3.5".
This is standard practice.
People get outraged, grab their pitch forks and form an angry mob, yet this it the standard MO and nothing new.
Go line up at your local Home Depot, folks. The irony is, however, that you'd probably buy that pitch fork FROM Home Depot.
Those problems can be explained by already-recalled sticky throttle pedals and cruise control modules.
What I don't buy is the failure of the gas and brakes simultaneously, since the systems are separate. Brakes are still hydraulic, the odds of a fluid leak and throttle pedal failure at the exact same time are nil.
Simple answer - we have to compare to other manufacturers.
Remember, in the fall of 2009, Toyota complaints were at half the rate of complaints for Ford.
I don't think the other automakers have a body count that is even close to Toyota, from SUA. Once the cover-up was brought out in the open, Toyota was fair game. Similar to the Ford/Firestone case. I know you like to use the Cruise control fires in Ford as a comparison. Ford recalled 16 million vehicles for the fix on that problem. There were 3 deaths reported from that issue. Toyota is still facing 103 deaths from SUA cases. Many still pending in the courts. It looks like Koua Fong Lee will get his day in court with Toyota. Was his car equipped with one of the defective CC units mentioned in the Congressional hearings????
Lee was convicted after his 1996 Toyota Camry sped out of control on a St. Paul interstate off ramp and slammed into another car, killing the driver and two passengers. A motion filed by his attorneys Tuesday would allow him to join the existing lawsuit against Toyota filed by a survivor and family members of the victims.
Lee, now 32, has always maintained that his car accelerated on its own and that he applied the brakes but could not stop the car.
"He is aggravated with Toyota," said Bob Hilliard, one of Lee's attorneys. He said his client recognizes it will be a big day for him to finally get a chance to have Toyota come into court and listen to why he believes Toyota is responsible. The hearing on the motion is set for November 8, 2010.
Following a four-day hearing in August, Judge Joanne Smith ruled there was enough evidence to grant Lee a new trial. She ordered him freed pending trial. However, less than an hour later prosecutors announced they would not try Lee again.
Lee's attorney Bob Hilliard credited an ABC News report from Chief Investigative Correspondent Brian Ross for garnering attention on the case.
Brian Ross has gotten a lot of negative comments for his part in the Toyota SUA investigation. I think this case makes him a hero. At least in my eyes.
Indeed, the right thing was done by the judge and the prosecutors in deciding NOT to prosecute again.
After all he spent two years in jail because of toyota's likely failure. It's a good thing the prosecutors didn't check CR's wonderful reliability reports and decide there couldn't have been anything wrong with one of those cars and therefore the driver Lee must have been wrong about the car. (Sarcasm).
Or maybe they should have checked the number of discussions for that model year on Edmunds to see how reliable the posts on Edmunds indicated the car is relative to the number of posts (at the time of the trial) for other models of cars. They obviously would have concluded that the driver Lee must have been wrong. (Sarcasm).
It's nice to see reality coming home to roost for toyota and their PR machine. What was it called? Infinity? Exponent?
Brian Ross and ABC get great positive marks for their resisting the PR machine pushing for toyota's innocence. I know a case about SUA in Northern KY was taken to suit; I assume it's been integrated into these suits.
As somebody whose worked in a non-union, technical environment all of my career, I'm amazed at the unionized working world. I've found that employees will go to the ends of the earth for you if they feel appreciated, and you give them challenging work, variety, and good honest feedback. Totally opposite of the US automakers in the past. No wonder they had such a mess.
"Toyota is refuting a new court filing that accuses the automaker of secretly repurchasing vehicles in which owners had reported unintended acceleration.
"Recent news reports have stated that Toyota dealership technicians were able to duplicate customer claims of unintended acceleration," said Toyota late Thursday. "That Toyota repurchased the vehicles in question; and that Toyota failed to properly inform the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration of the situation. Field technical specialists and engineers were deployed in response to reports of two acceleration events that dealer technicians recently observed. At these dealerships, Toyota FTS and engineers were unable to duplicate the condition and the vehicles were repurchased from the customers for further engineering analysis."
Who would have thought they would have quality problems with perfect, unfailing parts from domestic suppliers CTS and Delphi? Those Made-in-America parts never fail! (Sarcasm)
I have read every number under the sun attached to Toyota SUA. Many in mainstream media. I can't believe you would try and make a comparison between the saddle tank GM PU trucks and UA in Toyota vehicles. One killed people as a result of an accident like the old Pinto gas tanks. In the case of the Toyota UA, the vehicle itself caused the accidents and resulting deaths. Big difference.
Using that logic I could compare the deaths of those in small cars like the Yaris or Corolla when they get hit by a big SUV or PU truck. If you get broadsided by a Sequoia driving a Yaris you are likely to get hurt real bad or killed.
>Those Made-in-America parts never fail! (Sarcasm)
Of course they don't, unless they're manufactured to toyota's ultra low price point and low quality specifications intended to maximize profit for the home company. (Not sarcasm.) :P
The constant references to US companies don't seem like the right response for an open-minded poster as represented in the long ago past posts. In its place should be concern about the safety of toyota owners and drivers within an atmosphere of obfuscation and deception by toyota.
I'm sure the import bashers would like for me not to bring that up any more.
Sorry, can't resist.
Let's face it, this has not been a balanced thread from day one. Lots of import bashers and here for one reason only - to have fun at Toyota's expense.
Note when I compare them to Ford or GM, people are up in arms and accuse me of going off topic.
That's because they want to bash Toyota and just Toyota, noone else. Comparisons are relevant. Suppliers (domestic or not) are also extremely relevant, especially when it is their part that fails.
How 'bout a conspiracy theory, since people here love those?
Perhaps Delphi intentionally supplied bad parts, in order to damage Toyota's reputation?
That's not nearly as far-fetched as the 3-armed Grandma some people believed not too long ago.
Getting back on topic, I don't think Toyota intentionally hid the problems simply because I don't think they had a handle on what was going on. A recall is not issued until a fix is developed. Not when the initial problem reports creep up. It takes time to figure out the problem, develop potential solutions, test them, then implement them.
That last step is when the recall is issued.
I've said it many times - a recall is not a problem, it is a fix for a potential problem.
concern about the safety of toyota owners and drivers within an atmosphere of obfuscation and deception by toyota
I've shared my Sienna recall experience, for the potentially rusty cable holding the spare tire. Toyota is taking every precaution and recalled my van even though it did NOT have that problem (proof of what I said above).
The atmosphere has changed, I suppose. Toyota on the mend?
Lexus buys them back and destroys them and they get accused of hiding problems. Sounds like spin to me. I would bet they resell if it does not cost too much to bring up to certified quality. If not they probably wholesale it. Unless the Lexus was just junk to start with.
I would be curious how the states treat lemon buybacks. I know there are ways to get around salvage titles. I cannot say I would trust CarFax to have all the Facts.
I believe a very similar CTS pedal is used on some Chrysler products.
Until very recently at least, vendors complained much more about price squeezing from D3. Companies like Toyota and Honda had a better rep for working with them. I think Detroit is waking up on vendor relationships though. Longer term, good vendor relationships usually help the bottom line more than hostile battlegrounds.
I believe most lemon law buybacks end up back on a dealer lot somewhere regardless of producer. Maybe even as one of those so called "certified" vehicles. I think that segment is mostly a racket to jack up prices. I once read in the Wall St. Journal about a "certified" dealer car that had been in a major wreck. You are right that Carfax can't catch everything, its better than nothing Ii suppose, but a good mechanic is more reliable IMO.
Because they still have a bit of shame left on them. Thats why they pulled the recommended rating for just a short while. If they don't, more people will be suspicious of them.
But they still remember those BIG toyota checks, thats why now those recommended ratings are BACK !
Forget about sample size. It is absolutely irelevant because those paid guys at CR can just totally ignore those questionaires and just pad the results anyway they want.
For God's sake ! Comparing toyota's recalls and cases with Nissan's is like comparing clogged arteries with muscle cramps.
A muscle cramp may inhibit you for a while but its not deadly. And the fix is easy. A heart attack, like SUA, will just wipe you off the earth anytime.
Its a big mistake just comparing the numbers. One have to look at the SEVERITY of the disease.
Moreover, in terms of severity AND QUANTITY, toyota's cases are unbeatable ! Nissan does not even come close.
You are both right and wrong. You are right in that the no of recalls alone tell nothing about who is more reliable. But you are wrong in saying that recalls have nothing to do with quality.
They STILL DO. A car maker with frequent and big recalls means they have slipped on quality, poor design, and bad supplier choice / monitoring. Don't just blame the suppliers. toyota chose them ! And some are not even supplier's fault. Things like ECUs gone nuts are toyota's design problems.
Think about this : Who is healthier ? Mr. toyota who have 1 big heart attack each week, or Mr. Nissan who have muscle cramps once every month or so, or Mr. Hyundai who have a heavy flu once every month or so. Tell me who is sicker ?
Like I said, both in terms of SEVERITY of the case and the sheer numbers of recalls, toyota is the BIG CHAMPION. I really really wonder why some people are STILL convinced toyota's quality is still high, no matter from which point of view you see it.
I tell you, toyota is having many serious heart attacks. Anyone who still call them healthy is really lying to themself.
Yup. Remember folks, who choose those suppliers ? toyota
Who decides the design and specifications ? toyota
Who decides how much to squezze, or not to squeze the suppliers ? toyota
Who checks on the incoming quality of the parts when delivered ? toyota
If American suppliers are that bad, then why for heaven's sake does toyota use them ? Then why is it that other automakers like Hyundai, Nissan who also uses many American suppliers, does not share toyotas massive problems ?
Nobody ever forced toyota to use American suppliers. So, pls stop blaming third parties. Its plain and simple. toyota wants to pay peanuts ? Well, they get MONKEYS !
And think about this : Other car companies, let's not talk about Hyundai and Nissan this time. Even other brands which Americans scoff at like Renault, do you ever hear them having SUA cases in Europe ? Do you ever hear them having jumbo sized recalls like toyota ?
That is why folks, every year more than 3 million people around the world, including many Europeans, buy Renault and not toyota. They know that Renault make decent cars, no matter what car magazines and jd power says.
I guess Europeans make their choices based on what they experience and what their friends, relatives experience, NOT some numbers published by jd power whose accuracy is not even possible to verify.
Unless again one thinks that Europeans are so poorly educated, so stupid, and so un-demanding that each year millions of them are willing to buy junk Renaults.
Anybody ever been to Europe ? Think they are dumb people living in third world like living standards ? Look at the majority of cars on their roads. toyotas ? I tell you, toyotas are pretty rare species there. Everytime I go to Europe, I see much more Fords, Hyundais, Nissans, VWs, BMWs etc.
Or is it because jd power is an American firm, thats why so many Americans take them so seriously, yet the Europeans, if you look at their choices of cars, they tend to buy from makes at the close bottom of jd power's list.
Excuse me,nobody is having fun at toyota's expense when people's lives are at stake because toyota pays peanuts to their suppliers and cut costs to the bone ! And their perpetual hobby of cover-ups and other devious manuvers.
Its toyota who is having fun by laughing at their cash hoard of tens of billions of dollars, boast about saving millions by delaying, avoiding recalls, and even after people die, they still refuse to recall, UNTILL some people from Congress have to take a plane ride all the way to toyota's Tokyo headquarters to sound them out, before they decide to act.
How many people knew about this ?
Its toyota who is PLAYING GAMES with their customer's lives !!!!
man, you're starting to get me afraid again of Toyota and their money machine. ben66-would you agree with me that it's all about money? Whatever happened to the committing suicide thing the Japanese do when things go horribly wrong? Things that they could control but didn't? The horror of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Oh, I know. The U.S. and the Enola Gay dropped those bombs. But don't you guys think that that even had a terrible impact on the minds of the Japanese people?
And here's where I'm going with the Nagasaki thing. Once they bombed Pearl Harbor it changed everything. Awakened the sleeping giant so to speak. Look at the horrible outcome for them with the two atom bombs, though. What could the Japanese leaders have done to prevent that horrible occurrence? The immense sadness, the immense Japanese pride scourged and openly wounded. Toyota's bad run of luck, or, their bad choice of vendors, bad build quality, bad quality control, are out of control and are now evoking thoughts of Nagasaki. Not because the Japanese really could have prevented it, but because of the wounding of their pride.
Toyota has become the GM of Japan. Ya know why? They aren't committing hari-kari over this. :sick: Apparently it's OK to put out the crap they've been putting out. They're all right with it. You know they care...but ben66 is spot on. This thing is out of control and Toyota leadership isn't righting the ship very quickly.
And now, as I prepare to test drive a Toyota product, (OK, it is about a year off still ) that being the 2012 Scion FR-S, I am seriously having second thoughts about becoming a Toyota owner. I am enjoying my Mitsubishi Lancer GTS from year 2008 and I am enjoying it's reliability. My Lancer had one recall in the early summer of 2007, that being a clip needed on the rear door to insure the door stays closed upon certain impact angles in a crash. Big deal. Doesn't diminish my respect for Mitsu one iota. All carmakers have recalls. But I don't notice Mitsubishi cars and SUV's and trucks being recalled en masse like Toyota. OK, so you go by total cars produced then being recalled. Nothing like Toyota. Not even close car nuts. Not even close. Toyota is imploding upon theirself.
I'm seriously considering dumping the 2012 Scion FR-S pursuit now. Toyota is worrying me way too much. And I'm not kidding, either.
Done deal. Out of business. Doors closed. Closeout sale. Reduced prices. No hari-kari even considered. It's all about the Nikkei average, stock prices and total sales, isn't it, Toyota?
If net profit compared to total sales is any indication, the answer is NO. Ford and Hyundai had higher net profit than Toyota on much lower sales figures.
The new filing alleges that Toyota bought back flawed vehicles in order to hide the problem and quash consumers' ability to sue. There are so many problems with this, I don't know where to start.
You see, consumer protection laws dictate that manufacturers must repurchase vehicles that produce repeated flaws. And when a customer hands over a lemon, and gets paid back, he waives the right to further legal action. It's part of any lemon law transaction.
Suddenly this is something eye-poppingly evil?
What's more, If Toyota didn't buy back allegedly flawed vehicles, forcing consumers to keep driving them, wouldn't that be an even worse error in judgment?
This is why I brought up BMW - they did the wrong thing, while Toyota did what they were supposed to do. It gets worse...
Plaintiff lawyer Scott Berman, when pressed, said, “the consumers told us” about them. That is appallingly poor legal representation.
I can hear the judge now: “Facts not in evidence. Denied.”
Ambulance chaser Scott Berman needs to make a payment on his yacht, people! This is about money, not anybody's safety.
a 2009 lawsuit in which a Toyota service manager claimed a Toyota Tacoma accelerated without prompting or rational explanation from 70 mph to 95 mph “in seconds.”
That should make owners of Tacomas spit their coffee, if only for the realization that their dowdy compact pickup truck can now out-accelerate a Lamborghini Gallardo, Ford GT and Porsche 911 Turbo.
A lawsuit based on an impossibility? Good luck with that.
Summarizing:
The new filing reeks of desperation. When plaintiffs' attorneys present slipshod evidence, it only hurts their clients.
So I guess what your implying as well is that Ford is giving CR pad checks so that in actuality non of their vehicles should be recommended and are still pieces of crap since their entire line-up is on the recommended list with high marks by CR :confuse: :P
Well, maybe they did ? Who knows ? All I am saying is, throw away those useless ratings because their validity and accuracy can never be verified anyway. And you should know that jd does NOT check and prove the service records of cars belonging to the interviewees. Even if they did, does anyone verify that they really report what they see ? Of course nobody checks on jds reporting.
Their survey is just based on people's MOUTH mind you. Just interviews and questionaires.
How reliable can people's mouth be ?
But there is one yardstick much more reliable, that is, instead of observing what people say, observe what people DO !
Like I said, jd power says Renaults, VWs etc German cars are low in reliability rankings. But why on Earth does so many Europeans and Chinese buy German cars and French cars in HUGE numbers every year ? It can't be that bad like jd power says can it ?
Unless of course again one thinks that the Europeans and Chinese are a bunch of clueless consumers. FYI German cars hold huge market shares in Europe and China, and French cars also have huge market shares in Europe.
American cars also have much more respect in China and Europe than they do back home in the US. And Mitsubishi, even though their sales are not as big as the other guys, but they are still existing and they do have big market shares in other countries. And I don't hear them having SUAs or jumbo recalls even if you adjust the weighting for their sales figures.
I guess too many Americans take jd power, CR too seriously, and also I suspect many Americans become too devoted to toyota because they think that with the prius, toyota is the only automaker devoted to saving the environment. And the other automakers does not care a damn whether this planet explodes or not.
Well folks, if you really want to support green car makers, I guess its time to SWITCH from toyota to NISSAN. Buy the 100% electric LEAF, not the half hearted hybrids.
For the sake of the trees, the icebergs, the air, and your kids !!!
is simple. The US type made cars sent or built overseas were built, designed, engineered, and priced better better than their lemon :lemon: counterparts here in the United States.
The Chinese got the creme of the crop, and we were left with the chop liver from the domestic manufacturers here in the US.
No surprise to me that US branded vehicles get more respect in China than America due to that fact.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Comments
Well I believe the Ody is made in the US and the Caravan is made in Canada. So IMHO the Ody is the domestic. :P
Anybody know the US content of each of the Sienna, Ody, Caravan?
Double standard, much?
Nice try, BIG difference. Ford is buying vehicles that they admit are defective. Toyota is buying vehicles suspected of UA and claiming there is nothing wrong with them. So why buy them back if they believe there is not a problem? Just possible there is a problem and they want to bury the evidence. Toyota has done that several times before according to their testimony in the Congressional hearings.
Ever since the Toyota fiasco late last year all the manufacturers got scared and are going recall happy now!
You win. LOL
The Sienna is made in Princeton, Indiana.
Go USA!
Far from it.
They are buying back vehicles with broken or severely rusted axles because they don't have replacement parts (axles) to offer a fix.
Oh, and that's only if you live in the certain states. I guess if you live in Florida you're not allowed to move.
Toyota provided a fix - replacement pedals, which have caused complaints to plunge by 80%.
But in a series of field reports from 2006 to 2010 involving Toyota Camrys, technicians from Hong Kong confirmed unintended acceleration in cars they tested while ruling out faulty floor mats or gas pedals, the lawsuit said.
Moreover, the acceleration glitches were duplicated without the vehicle's diagnostic equipment detecting a malfunction.
"American version" of Mitsubishi's 2012 i-MiEV all-electric car
The i-MiEV will cost $30,000 USD and qualifies for a BO "green car" rebate. They're stretching the jelly bean to accommodate our plump preserves.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/tre69s058-us-toyota-litigation/
Toyota secretly bought back from U.S. consumers vehicles it found with speed-control defects as part of a strategy to hide unintended-acceleration problems from safety regulators and the public, a revised lawsuit claims.
"The new complaint also cites internal company records documenting instances in which Toyota Motor Corp technicians or service managers replicated speed-control problems like those reported by customers.
And it says the company's confirmation of at least one clear-cut case of sudden unintended acceleration was concealed rather than reported to federal auto safety regulators.
Toyota acknowledged in a statement on Thursday that it has repurchased vehicles from customers who complained of unintended acceleration but did so to conduct "further engineering analysis" on the cars.
However, the company said its technicians have never been able to replicate those "acceleration concerns nor found any related issues or conditions in these vehicles."
The company says many unintended acceleration cases stem from driver error and has denied the existence of a hidden flaw in its electronic throttle system, as the lawsuit suggests.
But the revised lawsuit challenges those contentions by pointing to some of the company's own communications, including those in which Toyota technicians said they had reproduced engine surges like those reported by consumers.
In examples cited, the precise cause of unintended acceleration experienced during test drives remained unknown.
But in a series of field reports from 2006 to 2010 involving Toyota Camrys, technicians from Hong Kong confirmed unintended acceleration in cars they tested while ruling out faulty floor mats or gas pedals, the lawsuit said.
Moreover, the acceleration glitches were duplicated without the vehicle's diagnostic equipment detecting a malfunction.In a separate 2009 case, service manager described in a company memo as "trustworthy and reliable" experienced an unexplained burst of acceleration while test-driving a Toyota Tacoma. The vehicle raced from 70 miles per hour to 95 miles per hour in seconds with "no pedal contact" from the driver. Floor mats were properly secured, according to the lawsuit.
######
So are we to assume these attorneys just lied in a court document about having documents from toyota that toyota actually did replicate the problem? All those attorneys lied for the class suit?
My bet is on the cruise control function.
,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
But in a series of field reports from 2006 to 2010 involving Toyota Camrys, technicians from Hong Kong confirmed unintended acceleration in cars they tested while ruling out faulty floor mats or gas pedals, the lawsuit said.
Moreover, the acceleration glitches were duplicated without the vehicle's diagnostic equipment detecting a malfunction.In a separate 2009 case, service manager described in a company memo as "trustworthy and reliable" experienced an unexplained burst of acceleration while test-driving a Toyota Tacoma. The vehicle raced from 70 miles per hour to 95 miles per hour in seconds with "no pedal contact" from the driver. Floor mats were properly secured, according to the lawsuit.
This is the type of information I have been clamoring for for months in these Edmund's Toyota 'News and Views' threads. What else can anyone find out about this Toyota SUA possible problem? Need a large Diane Sawyer expose on this. sharonkl, where ya at?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
And you consider 80% good? That means they are still getting 20% as many complaints of SUA.
And what would you expect Ford to do if no parts are available? I think buying the vehicle they cannot fix is generous. Especially if it is way past warranty. And if a person moves to snow country I am sure they will be covered. I really think that is grasping at straws. Ford says the car is a PO rusty crap, we will buy it back at fair market value. Toyota says we will buy your Camry back even though there is nothing wrong with it. If that don't sound fishy to you, it should.
http://www.allbusiness.com/specialty-businesses/592099-1.html
You really think good quality can come out from people treated LIKE THAT ? Read everyword in this story. toyota has been doing this a long way back !
The most important part of that story is this:
"the lawsuit said."
I'm all for a healthy skepticism. I can accept people skeptical of Toyota, they deserve it.
What I don't get is why people give Ford a pass. Also, I don't think people understand that hiding problems until you figure it out and get it under control is TOTALLY ROUTINE in the auto industry. Everyone does that - even BMW. They'll replace your fuel pump - if they HAVE to. Sure. Ford will buy back your rusty axle, if it breaks and if you live in certain states.
Capitalism is all about maximing profit, share holder value. Not ethics or honesty.
You go to the hardware store and buy a 2 by 4.
Ever measured one?
It's 1.5" by 3.5".
This is standard practice.
People get outraged, grab their pitch forks and form an angry mob, yet this it the standard MO and nothing new.
Go line up at your local Home Depot, folks. The irony is, however, that you'd probably buy that pitch fork FROM Home Depot.
What I don't buy is the failure of the gas and brakes simultaneously, since the systems are separate. Brakes are still hydraulic, the odds of a fluid leak and throttle pedal failure at the exact same time are nil.
Simple answer - we have to compare to other manufacturers.
Remember, in the fall of 2009, Toyota complaints were at half the rate of complaints for Ford.
Where are they now? Let's see what NHTSA says.
CR felt comfortable enough to put the "Recommended" stamp back on all the recalled Toyotas this week, ending their bias against Toyota.
That last part is a joke.
Remember, in the fall of 2009, Toyota complaints were at half the rate of complaints for Ford.
I don't think the other automakers have a body count that is even close to Toyota, from SUA. Once the cover-up was brought out in the open, Toyota was fair game. Similar to the Ford/Firestone case. I know you like to use the Cruise control fires in Ford as a comparison. Ford recalled 16 million vehicles for the fix on that problem. There were 3 deaths reported from that issue. Toyota is still facing 103 deaths from SUA cases. Many still pending in the courts. It looks like Koua Fong Lee will get his day in court with Toyota. Was his car equipped with one of the defective CC units mentioned in the Congressional hearings????
Lee was convicted after his 1996 Toyota Camry sped out of control on a St. Paul interstate off ramp and slammed into another car, killing the driver and two passengers. A motion filed by his attorneys Tuesday would allow him to join the existing lawsuit against Toyota filed by a survivor and family members of the victims.
Lee, now 32, has always maintained that his car accelerated on its own and that he applied the brakes but could not stop the car.
"He is aggravated with Toyota," said Bob Hilliard, one of Lee's attorneys. He said his client recognizes it will be a big day for him to finally get a chance to have Toyota come into court and listen to why he believes Toyota is responsible. The hearing on the motion is set for November 8, 2010.
Following a four-day hearing in August, Judge Joanne Smith ruled there was enough evidence to grant Lee a new trial. She ordered him freed pending trial. However, less than an hour later prosecutors announced they would not try Lee again.
Lee's attorney Bob Hilliard credited an ABC News report from Chief Investigative Correspondent Brian Ross for garnering attention on the case.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/freed-prison-minnesota-toyota-driver-sue-toyota/st- ory?id=11975652
Brian Ross has gotten a lot of negative comments for his part in the Toyota SUA investigation. I think this case makes him a hero. At least in my eyes.
After all he spent two years in jail because of toyota's likely failure. It's a good thing the prosecutors didn't check CR's wonderful reliability reports and decide there couldn't have been anything wrong with one of those cars and therefore the driver Lee must have been wrong about the car. (Sarcasm).
Or maybe they should have checked the number of discussions for that model year on Edmunds to see how reliable the posts on Edmunds indicated the car is relative to the number of posts (at the time of the trial) for other models of cars. They obviously would have concluded that the driver Lee must have been wrong. (Sarcasm).
It's nice to see reality coming home to roost for toyota and their PR machine. What was it called? Infinity? Exponent?
Brian Ross and ABC get great positive marks for their resisting the PR machine pushing for toyota's innocence. I know a case about SUA in Northern KY was taken to suit; I assume it's been integrated into these suits.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
"Recent news reports have stated that Toyota dealership technicians were able to duplicate customer claims of unintended acceleration," said Toyota late Thursday. "That Toyota repurchased the vehicles in question; and that Toyota failed to properly inform the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration of the situation. Field technical specialists and engineers were deployed in response to reports of two acceleration events that dealer technicians recently observed. At these dealerships, Toyota FTS and engineers were unable to duplicate the condition and the vehicles were repurchased from the customers for further engineering analysis."
Toyota Denies It Secretly Repurchased Vehicles To Hide Defect (Inside Line)
That number is much higher than what I've heard, and still dwarfed by GM's side saddle gas tanks.
Using that logic I could compare the deaths of those in small cars like the Yaris or Corolla when they get hit by a big SUV or PU truck. If you get broadsided by a Sequoia driving a Yaris you are likely to get hurt real bad or killed.
In one case Toyota probably pinched suppliers on costs too much, then cut down on quality inspections. At least they replaced the parts.
GM did not.
Of course they don't, unless they're manufactured to toyota's ultra low price point and low quality specifications intended to maximize profit for the home company. (Not sarcasm.) :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
>Delphi
>CTS
The constant references to US companies don't seem like the right response for an open-minded poster as represented in the long ago past posts.
In its place should be concern about the safety of toyota owners and drivers within an atmosphere of obfuscation and deception by toyota.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Sorry, can't resist.
Let's face it, this has not been a balanced thread from day one. Lots of import bashers and here for one reason only - to have fun at Toyota's expense.
Note when I compare them to Ford or GM, people are up in arms and accuse me of going off topic.
That's because they want to bash Toyota and just Toyota, noone else. Comparisons are relevant. Suppliers (domestic or not) are also extremely relevant, especially when it is their part that fails.
How 'bout a conspiracy theory, since people here love those?
Perhaps Delphi intentionally supplied bad parts, in order to damage Toyota's reputation?
That's not nearly as far-fetched as the 3-armed Grandma some people believed not too long ago.
Getting back on topic, I don't think Toyota intentionally hid the problems simply because I don't think they had a handle on what was going on. A recall is not issued until a fix is developed. Not when the initial problem reports creep up. It takes time to figure out the problem, develop potential solutions, test them, then implement them.
That last step is when the recall is issued.
I've said it many times - a recall is not a problem, it is a fix for a potential problem.
concern about the safety of toyota owners and drivers within an atmosphere of obfuscation and deception by toyota
I've shared my Sienna recall experience, for the potentially rusty cable holding the spare tire. Toyota is taking every precaution and recalled my van even though it did NOT have that problem (proof of what I said above).
The atmosphere has changed, I suppose. Toyota on the mend?
Wow, CPO too. Makes Toyota look like a saint for buying those cars back!
How would you feel if Lexus sold you a CPO that had been one of those SUA buy-backs?
Does the whole auto industry need a make-over, or what?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/CPO/Default.aspx
PRISTINE CONDITION
Not every BMW becomes a Certified Pre-Owned Vehicle. In fact, there's an entire certification process, including a rigorous inspection.
Only the best pre-owned BMWs qualify for the Certified Pre-Owned BMW Vehicle Program
They must pass an extensive examination - a thorough and rigorous inspection by BMW factory-trained technicians
we're picky [really?!]
your assurance of the quality, reliability and overall pleasure BMW owners have come to expect
Lexus buys them back and destroys them and they get accused of hiding problems.
At least BMW doesn't hide them! How honest! What color would you like yours in? Maybe Lemon Yellow?
Sounds like spin to me. I would bet they resell if it does not cost too much to bring up to certified quality. If not they probably wholesale it. Unless the Lexus was just junk to start with.
I would be curious how the states treat lemon buybacks. I know there are ways to get around salvage titles. I cannot say I would trust CarFax to have all the Facts.
Until very recently at least, vendors complained much more about price squeezing from D3. Companies like Toyota and Honda had a better rep for working with them. I think Detroit is waking up on vendor relationships though. Longer term, good vendor relationships usually help the bottom line more than hostile battlegrounds.
Also, You pay peanuts, you get MONKEYS !
toyota has been paying peanuts for a long time, especially under the King of all the Monkey keepers : KATSUAKI WATANABE !
But they still remember those BIG toyota checks, thats why now those recommended ratings are BACK !
Forget about sample size. It is absolutely irelevant because those paid guys at CR can just totally ignore those questionaires and just pad the results anyway they want.
Don't tell me there is no corruption in America.
A muscle cramp may inhibit you for a while but its not deadly. And the fix is easy. A heart attack, like SUA, will just wipe you off the earth anytime.
Its a big mistake just comparing the numbers. One have to look at the SEVERITY of the disease.
Moreover, in terms of severity AND QUANTITY, toyota's cases are unbeatable ! Nissan does not even come close.
They STILL DO. A car maker with frequent and big recalls means they have slipped on quality, poor design, and bad supplier choice / monitoring. Don't just blame the suppliers. toyota chose them ! And some are not even supplier's fault. Things like ECUs gone nuts are toyota's design problems.
Think about this : Who is healthier ? Mr. toyota who have 1 big heart attack each week, or Mr. Nissan who have muscle cramps once every month or so, or Mr. Hyundai who have a heavy flu once every month or so. Tell me who is sicker ?
Like I said, both in terms of SEVERITY of the case and the sheer numbers of recalls, toyota is the BIG CHAMPION. I really really wonder why some people are STILL convinced toyota's quality is still high, no matter from which point of view you see it.
I tell you, toyota is having many serious heart attacks. Anyone who still call them healthy is really lying to themself.
Who decides the design and specifications ? toyota
Who decides how much to squezze, or not to squeze the suppliers ? toyota
Who checks on the incoming quality of the parts when delivered ? toyota
If American suppliers are that bad, then why for heaven's sake does toyota use them ? Then why is it that other automakers like Hyundai, Nissan who also uses many American suppliers, does not share toyotas massive problems ?
Nobody ever forced toyota to use American suppliers. So, pls stop blaming third parties. Its plain and simple. toyota wants to pay peanuts ? Well, they get MONKEYS !
And think about this : Other car companies, let's not talk about Hyundai and Nissan this time. Even other brands which Americans scoff at like Renault, do you ever hear them having SUA cases in Europe ? Do you ever hear them having jumbo sized recalls like toyota ?
That is why folks, every year more than 3 million people around the world, including many Europeans, buy Renault and not toyota. They know that Renault make decent cars, no matter what car magazines and jd power says.
I guess Europeans make their choices based on what they experience and what their friends, relatives experience, NOT some numbers published by jd power whose accuracy is not even possible to verify.
Unless again one thinks that Europeans are so poorly educated, so stupid, and so un-demanding that each year millions of them are willing to buy junk Renaults.
Anybody ever been to Europe ? Think they are dumb people living in third world like living standards ? Look at the majority of cars on their roads. toyotas ? I tell you, toyotas are pretty rare species there. Everytime I go to Europe, I see much more Fords, Hyundais, Nissans, VWs, BMWs etc.
Or is it because jd power is an American firm, thats why so many Americans take them so seriously, yet the Europeans, if you look at their choices of cars, they tend to buy from makes at the close bottom of jd power's list.
Maybe the Europeans ARE dumb !
Its toyota who is having fun by laughing at their cash hoard of tens of billions of dollars, boast about saving millions by delaying, avoiding recalls, and even after people die, they still refuse to recall, UNTILL some people from Congress have to take a plane ride all the way to toyota's Tokyo headquarters to sound them out, before they decide to act.
How many people knew about this ?
Its toyota who is PLAYING GAMES with their customer's lives !!!!
And here's where I'm going with the Nagasaki thing. Once they bombed Pearl Harbor it changed everything. Awakened the sleeping giant so to speak. Look at the horrible outcome for them with the two atom bombs, though. What could the Japanese leaders have done to prevent that horrible occurrence? The immense sadness, the immense Japanese pride scourged and openly wounded. Toyota's bad run of luck, or, their bad choice of vendors, bad build quality, bad quality control, are out of control and are now evoking thoughts of Nagasaki. Not because the Japanese really could have prevented it, but because of the wounding of their pride.
Toyota has become the GM of Japan. Ya know why? They aren't committing hari-kari over this. :sick: Apparently it's OK to put out the crap they've been putting out. They're all right with it. You know they care...but ben66 is spot on. This thing is out of control and Toyota leadership isn't righting the ship very quickly.
And now, as I prepare to test drive a Toyota product, (OK, it is about a year off still
I'm seriously considering dumping the 2012 Scion FR-S pursuit now. Toyota is worrying me way too much. And I'm not kidding, either.
Done deal. Out of business. Doors closed. Closeout sale. Reduced prices. No hari-kari even considered. It's all about the Nikkei average, stock prices and total sales, isn't it, Toyota?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Ford and Hyundai had higher net profit than Toyota on much lower sales figures.
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/global500/2010/full_list/index.html
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20101101/OEM/101029802/1018
The new filing alleges that Toyota bought back flawed vehicles in order to hide the problem and quash consumers' ability to sue. There are so many problems with this, I don't know where to start.
You see, consumer protection laws dictate that manufacturers must repurchase vehicles that produce repeated flaws. And when a customer hands over a lemon, and gets paid back, he waives the right to further legal action. It's part of any lemon law transaction.
Suddenly this is something eye-poppingly evil?
What's more, If Toyota didn't buy back allegedly flawed vehicles, forcing consumers to keep driving them, wouldn't that be an even worse error in judgment?
This is why I brought up BMW - they did the wrong thing, while Toyota did what they were supposed to do. It gets worse...
Plaintiff lawyer Scott Berman, when pressed, said, “the consumers told us” about them. That is appallingly poor legal representation.
I can hear the judge now: “Facts not in evidence. Denied.”
Ambulance chaser Scott Berman needs to make a payment on his yacht, people! This is about money, not anybody's safety.
a 2009 lawsuit in which a Toyota service manager claimed a Toyota Tacoma accelerated without prompting or rational explanation from 70 mph to 95 mph “in seconds.”
That should make owners of Tacomas spit their coffee, if only for the realization that their dowdy compact pickup truck can now out-accelerate a Lamborghini Gallardo, Ford GT and Porsche 911 Turbo.
A lawsuit based on an impossibility? Good luck with that.
Summarizing:
The new filing reeks of desperation. When plaintiffs' attorneys present slipshod evidence, it only hurts their clients.
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20101102/OEM/101109955/1424#i- xzz14A56w9aD
Their survey is just based on people's MOUTH mind you. Just interviews and questionaires.
How reliable can people's mouth be ?
But there is one yardstick much more reliable, that is, instead of observing what people say, observe what people DO !
Like I said, jd power says Renaults, VWs etc German cars are low in reliability rankings. But why on Earth does so many Europeans and Chinese buy German cars and French cars in HUGE numbers every year ? It can't be that bad like jd power says can it ?
Unless of course again one thinks that the Europeans and Chinese are a bunch of clueless consumers. FYI German cars hold huge market shares in Europe and China, and French cars also have huge market shares in Europe.
American cars also have much more respect in China and Europe than they do back home in the US. And Mitsubishi, even though their sales are not as big as the other guys, but they are still existing and they do have big market shares in other countries. And I don't hear them having SUAs or jumbo recalls even if you adjust the weighting for their sales figures.
I guess too many Americans take jd power, CR too seriously, and also I suspect many Americans become too devoted to toyota because they think that with the prius, toyota is the only automaker devoted to saving the environment. And the other automakers does not care a damn whether this planet explodes or not.
Well folks, if you really want to support green car makers, I guess its time to SWITCH from toyota to NISSAN. Buy the 100% electric LEAF, not the half hearted hybrids.
For the sake of the trees, the icebergs, the air, and your kids !!!
http://www.nissan-zeroemission.com/EN/index.html
The Chinese got the creme of the crop, and we were left with the chop liver from the domestic manufacturers here in the US.
No surprise to me that US branded vehicles get more respect in China than America due to that fact.