Toyota on the mend?

anythngbutgm · March 2012

sales are still strong

Toyota Bumping Up RAV4 Production By 50,000 Units Annually

Not really a fan of the RAV4 myself but the V6 is a gem (269hp, 26mpg) and the chassis is very fun to drive. With a redesigned model around the corner, hopefully Toyota will improve the interior which I think is the weakest spot.

mcdawgg · March 2012

Agree. And since the interior of the redesigned Camry was improved, I am 99% sure that the RAV will have an improved interior also.

anythngbutgm · April 2012

Toyota Reports Sales of Over 200,000 Vehicles in March 2012

Camry and Camry Hybrid increased 30.5 percent year-over-year with its best-ever March, leading monthly passenger car sales with 42,567 units. :surprise:

They also sold 28,7xx Prius models! That's better than a slew of conventional midsizers!

Wow.

anythngbutgm · April 2012

link title

Great looking car! Not as frumpy as the current one. :shades:

lemko · April 2012

I think it looks like a Honda.

anythngbutgm · April 2012

I see a little more Hyundai in the opening on the nose and I see a little bit of Azera in the rear.

I think what I like the most about this one is how they extended the roofline to minimize the rear overhang that I notice everytime on the current one.

I am not a buyer of large cars but I like this one if I were shopping in this class. Up until now it was the Taurus, but this new Avalon makes the Ford look a bit "butt heavy"

berri · April 2012

The new Avalon should have been the new Camry. The 2012 Camry is looking kind of old already to me as you see its new competition coming out.

fintail · April 2012

I thought the same thing when I saw a new unplated Camry just yesterday - what's so "new"?

I see some new Impala in the Avalon too.

ateixeira · April 2012

No spin, either. It was their best March since 2008, pre-crisis.

High gas prices = skyrocketing Prius sales.

Now is the time to sell a Prius if you own one, actually. In CCB an older one was going for $12k. Stupid money.

It's crazy, you can save $800 a year on gas but everybody panics and prices jump up $4,000.

So many decent B-segment cars now, too.

ateixeira · April 2012

I see lots of influences...

Aston/Ford lower grille
Camry upper grille
Audi A7 greenhouse

Hard to be truly original nowadays.

Looks better from rear 3/4ths angles. Too much chrome up front for me.

Gramps also gets paddle shifters now.

ateixeira · April 2012

You'd love Jamaica, mon. Forget the Lexus GX, you can get the Toyota Land Cruiser Prado there. There are even places where you can actually use the 4WD.

Also saw a Harrier, Allion, Skyline, Starlet...names that don't exist here.

Toyota pretty much owns the market in Jamaica. Put it this way - a few cars are not Toyotas.

lemko · April 2012

When my parents vacationed in Jamaica, they used Lada taxicabs. Are they still around?

ateixeira · April 2012

I didn't see any...you could pretty much sit back and watch the rust spread on those, so I'm not surprised.

19 years ago I went for my honeymoon, and saw TONS of Lada Samaras and Nivas.

Not one left that I saw.

No wonder Toyota took over.

fintail · April 2012

That dual grille design is pretty homely, IMO. The dangly/pig snout upper part doesn't help. Yeah, hard to be original when the entire vocation is based on copying and sycophanting...but as the current one is ancient, the redesign is needed.

Will grandpa know what do do with a shift lever not coming out of the steering column? :shades:

Rental car forum I read called the 2012 model a "Toyota Town Car"...

ateixeira · April 2012

They've seen 3-on-the-tree so they can figure it out. LOL

I'm not a fan of chrome, and that front has lots of it, so yeah...hopefully not all models get the brace-face look.

From the rear it looks like a poor man's Audi A7.

fintail · April 2012

Do we need a paddle shifter just for Drive - Reverse - Park? I suspect the average buyer will never use anything else. I wonder if that along with the chrome will make it to 99% of actual production models that can be picked off the lot.

The Audi rear hint caught my eye too. It's inoffensive from that angle, anyway.

ateixeira · April 2012

Not sure why they decided to offer paddles, maybe just for marketing to a younger audience.

By younger I mean 67 instead of 73 median age.

ateixeira · April 2012

I had read it would be a shortened GS, but this says otherwise:

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/04/16/next-gen-lexus-is-mule-caught-circulating/

Can you imagine Lexus dealers trying to sell boxer engines? Hard to think of a bigger mismatch.

fintail · April 2012

So smooth and quiet and refined, just what the L buyer wants.

To be fair, slap the badge on it and it will sell, just like the competing makes.

ateixeira · April 2012

Well, who's to say they don't build a new FA30 engine in an H6 format? Those are quieter and smoother. Subaru could use it for the high end Outbacks.

There's no front half shafts, so all they need is a longer/taller nose, and it'll fit. It would not have the same front-mid engine balance, but it's less important in the IS.

I wonder if they'll really use that platform. I guess they need economies of scale.

Or they could keep the FA20 as is, and the numbers could represent the HP output. For example:

IS200 = 200hp, FA20 DI, N/A
IS300 = 300hp, FA20 DI turbo

etc.

I guess a boxer would be no more out of place at a Lexus dealer than in a Scion dealer...

fintail · April 2012

It'll need to be amazingly refined from the current versions of that style engine, which to me sound like a lawnmower after a few years. The isotank vanilla ice milk Lexus buyer won't care for such feedback. I don't know if I can imagine it just yet.

We should get a diesel IS as exists elsewhere.

ateixeira · April 2012

Keep in mind the Germans have gone to DI (the injectors clatter) and diesels. The silky smooth normally aspirated straight sixes are being phased out.

The cabins are so well insulated, the glass laminated and multi-layered, so they're quiet inside even if they're noisy outside.

I bet the boxer's overall NVH would fall between a DI gas engine and a diesel. Par for the class nowadays.

The EJ25 you're used to listening to is probably noisier than the new FA series, plus the compact Impreza has much less sound insulation.

FWIW I like the sounds a boxer makes...

fintail · April 2012

The old fashioned I6s at MB anyway died off some time ago. Still, from my experience, DI noise isn't as bad as boxer noise - DI seems worse when cold and fades away, boxer is always there rumbling away. If this was to exist on an IS, I don't know if the noise and vibration would be tolerated - if anything, it would be a test of how much Lexus can isolate an engine and structure. But at the same time, late model MB diesels are amazingly isolated, maybe it could be done.

The boxer noise is cool for the 25 year old wannabe racer in his WRX...maybe not for the 50 year old latte swiller in an IS.

nippononly · April 2012

There is no way most Lexus buyers are going to be OK with the NVH of a Subie boxer under the hood. This seems like a bit of a crazy plan, and what is going on at Toyota these days? Have they thrown in the gauntlet and conceded that they can't engineer a superior 4-cylinder engine any more so they have to have Subaru design and build their engines for them?

I wonder why they think it's such a good idea to lean on their partnership with Soob so much. The two companies really are quite different, and the quirkiness of the boxer should stay exclusive to the Subaru brand as much as it possibly can. I do get that they are trying to leverage their investment in the FT-86 project as much as possible here, but developing Lexuses from it is a mistake. Why not make another Scion or two? Or perhaps a (gasp!) sporty Toyota from it??

stever · April 2012

Well, some people think that NVH stands for New Vehicle High. :shades:

Leaving the boxer with Scion might be the better plan though.

ateixeira · April 2012

Lexus is the best at isolation, heck even Toyota. Dad had a diesel Land Cruiser and outside you needed ear plugs. Inside you could hardly tell the engine was running. It was incredible.

The newer FA engine is quieter than the EJ series despite the DI.

The big question is what to do with the FB engines. Subaru just launched them and Toyota stepped in and changed the bore, stroke, and added DI to create the FA series.

May as well just drop the FB now.

The 2.5l boxer you don't like (though I do) is now 2 generations old.

fintail · April 2012

I don't know if those Land Cruisers were meant to be quiet, or maybe just got lucky in having a good engine and solid structure. I don't know if the original target market for those (industrial users, high cost NGO officials, local plutocrats) really cared for smoothness over easy longterm care. It's a shame they never made it here, along with other Toyota diesels - Toyota can make some very good engines, but just like with Honda diesels, we miss out.

Yes, you have made it abundantly clear you like the boxer

- but no matter, most of the market does not, or more makers would adopt the layout. Is it some kind of "underdog" engine? For the average IS buyer, who can't drive stick, can't parallel park, who thinks a bowl of wintergreen flavored ice milk is an exotic dessert, a boxer with its inherent iffy to poor NVH qualities and tendency to get louder and rougher with age, it would be very unwelcome. I can't imagine Toyota would go that route, and I would wager it won't - it has the knowledge to develop better normal engines.

ateixeira · April 2012

I saw the order book - you would have been surprised by how little they paid for those. Around $25k or so delivered. Our Lexus version was $60k at the time, even the Toyota was about double here.

Of course this is with steel wheels, knobby tires, vinyl interior. A real SUV, in other words. He did project appraisals in undeveloped areas so he used it as the designers intended, too.

Yes, I like a good boxer growl. Too many engines sounds the same, or worse, make almost no sound at all.

ateixeira · April 2012

Buddy of mine, who used to tow boats, who previously went from an Expedition to a Touareg V8, pulls up in a shiny new Venza V6. That dark bronze color.

Said he doesn't tow any more, since his boat stays in the water year-round now.

The T-reg was a major gas guzzler, high teens mpg on premium fuel, plus he got tired of the repair bills (last one was close to $5 grand).

I was surprised he didn't get a Touareg TDI, but they had an unreliable Passat so that made 2 bad experiences with VW, so he's done with those.

Wife went from a Passat to an Odyssey, which she still has.

His T-reg was *really* nice inside but VW has to get its quality act together if it wants to maintain customers.

(edited to fix name of vehicle)

fintail · April 2012

25K, what a steal. Heck, I would look at one for that. Can you imagine had they sold here for that, even with sparse equipment? There would have been lines out the door. Now the Lexus version can be loaded up to virtually 100K, I can't see who buys those...but we all know money and sense don't have a positive correlation.

I like some noise too, but I also like smooth, in a modern car especially. The NVH ideal would be damning for the boxer in a Lexus,. I don't know if 95% of Lexus buyers want to hear a single peep from under the hood.

On other Lexus news, somewhere lately I read about the new ES. Looked very much like a GS, seemed to be 90% of the car for 60% of the price.

ateixeira · April 2012

I would have been in that long line...

Given how much Toyota changed the 2l boxer in the FT-86, we should expect even more tinkering if Lexus uses a boxer.

Is the next ES still Camry-based? Looks can be deceiving, I'm sure they'll keep it FWD and far from sporty to keep loyal ES buyers happy.

At first I thought the IS was going to be a SWB GS....we'll see.

anythngbutgm · April 2012

Contrary to the rumors I read that Lexus was not going to offer FWD for the next gen ES, I believe it will remain the same layout as the Camry. Although, it would be nice to see them offer AWD, maybe to lure in a few Audi A4/Acura TL intenders up here in NE.

ateixeira · April 2012

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/04/23/scion-xb-xd-models-getting-the-axe/

Interesting take:

Scion's intent wasn't to be a youth brand at all  it was to be an experimental division, an incubator for product and marketing techniques

I've always said that. Scion isolated risky models, insulating Toyota.

Good idea to discontinue the 2 boxes. Heck, bring something like the original xB back while you're at it. The Kia Soul is selling briskly and remains unchallenged.

fintail · April 2012

I'd drive one too for that money, just a lot of car for the money. I wonder if those prices were subsidized.

I don't know if enough tinkering exists to make a boxer work in a Lexus, which as a brand is supposed to be 100% smoothness and refinenement - something impossible from any boxer I have seen. For the ES, I recall no technical data, just pics - looked a lot like the GS to me. I wonder how "sporty" the GS really is, especially as the screamer ad lease specials (not a remarkably good price) are all AWD.

nippononly · April 2012

The new GS350 F-sport just beat the new 5-series, Audi A6, and something else I forget (Infiniti M37S?), in a 4-way Motor Trend comparo. Depending on your opinion of buff book reviews, it seems like the GS might finally have some chops.

fintail · April 2012

I guess it would depend on how the others were equipped - ie: sport packages on the rest as well, and what exactly was "beat". Seeing how invisible and in later years simply pointless the 06-12 GS was, the only way to go is up :shades:

hpmctorque · April 2012

"...seemed to be 90% of the car for 60% of the price."

Yeah, but with FWD. That's inherently neither good nor bad, but it makes it difficult to compare the ES and GS. While similar in size and style, the driving dynamics are different. I'd prefer the ES for Monday-Friday commutes, etc. and the GS for weekends and long drives. Would find it difficult to choose one over the other for 365 days/year use. For a sport sedan, I'd choose a German model over the GS, but I can't think of anything that beats the ES for luxury and comfort in the entry-level luxury category.

hpmctorque · April 2012

I saw that comparo. The biggest disappointment was the A-6, which has generally gotten great reviews. I thought Audi hit a home run with the new A-6, but MT panned it from a driver's feel perspective. That's the first time I'd seen that criticism.

ateixeira · April 2012

I wonder if those prices were subsidized.

Indirectly, I'm sure - they would order straight from the factory, but I'm sure Toyota wants to keep the image of blazing fresh trails in frontier countries alive.

Yeah, ES got the new spindle face, all Lexi will get it I suppose, the whole family resemblance thing.

ateixeira · April 2012

I guess it would depend on how the others were equipped

Similarly priced, one would hope.

I saw a comparo with the new 3 series where it was $15 grand more than the cheapest car. Come on...that's pushing the limits of sanity.

Did you see the base 5 series now comes with a 4 banger turbo? And it's the engine that clatters like mad when you start it cold.

It may not even be that the GS is vastly improved, but perhaps the Germans falling asleep behind the (electrically assisted and numb) wheel.

fintail · April 2012

If Lexus is supposedly good at making drivers cars now (I have my doubts), maybe they could make it perform at least like a TL, which is said to not do badly for FWD. FWD doesn't have to be numb and maybe the ES could be made to appeal to those born after Pearl Harbor day. I was basing my assumed similarities on looks more than anything else.

fintail · April 2012

Cost isn't the main factor when you race past 50K. If they aren't all sport package equipped cars, the comparison is invalidated in my eyes. 3er is a funny comparison, with its insane Porsche style ala carte option scheme. The new one I saw on the showroom floor was something like 57K...I remember when an M3 cost a lot less.

Base 5ers and Es etc have been 4 bangers at home for decades. Hasn't hurt them there. Clatters like mad, DI noise, or it can rumble and vibrate and moan 100% of the time like a boxer engine...

I'd expect the GS to be very much improved. The previous model was invisible and really not close to the competition, who have all moved on since. It has to be improved.

nippononly · April 2012

If they aren't all sport package equipped cars

Well you made me just curious enough to go and actually look.

They tested an M37S, which is the Infiniti M-car with the sport package.

They tested a 535i with the M Sport Package.

And of course they tested the GS350 with its own F-sport package.

So the answer to your question is mostly yes, they were. The only one that didn't explicitly say it had a sport package was the A6, which was a 3.0T Quattro. However, it had almost $7000 in options and 255/40/19 PZeros, so I am thinking it probably did have whatever passes for a sport package in that model.

They called the Audi tinny and uninvolving, that you might just as well be the passenger as be the driver. And they (and many other reviews I have read) simply hate the steering in the new 5-series, which they call numb, and also disliked that the 535i feels like an only-slightly-downsized 7-series - too big and heavy.

So by contrast, the GS came out on top, as an involving and fun car to drive. It was also about the same price as the Audi and about $5000 less than the 535i, as tested.

The old GS was a car that no-one thought worth buying, and I figured it might just take a hiatus when its model run was over, so I guess they figured that instead of putting it to rest, they ought to really make it competitive in its class this time around.

fintail · April 2012

Interesting. Glad they did a like-for-like test. Having driven both a current style 7er and 5er, I can agree with their take on that car - even the interior in the smaller car is like a scaled down version of the big barge. Funny that BMW is now airing an ad that states something like "we don't make luxury sedans" too - yeah right, 7er and 5er are just like the S and E now.

I think Lexus took a brow beating over the previous GS, and worked 110% to make this new one better. If I was shopping in that category now, I would certainly give it a chance - the one I sat in was impressive.

ateixeira · April 2012

ES will (and should) remain the iso-chamber that it is now.

Some people want that. Plus, having it allows them to play with the IS.

ateixeira · April 2012

Cost isn't the main factor when you race past 50K

Agreed 100%, but in the comparo I'm referring to they put an over $50k Bimmer with the base 4 banger engine up against a $35k Infiniti.

Fair fight?

There was a time where the base BMW had the power deficit but had better handling and steering feel, so C&D would rave about how it had "soul" and it would still win.

Now it's the nearly half-priced Infiniti which had the better handling and superior steering feedback, and was named most fun to drive, yet the winner is .... BMW, even with the nose-bleed price.

C&D has always loved BMW and Honda, no doubt.

Spec chart from the comparo, with pricing:

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2012-bmw-328i-vs-2012-audi-a4-20t-2012-infin- - iti-g25-2012-mercedes-benz-c250-sport-2012-volvo-s60-t6-awd2012-bmw-328i-vs-2012- - -audi-a4-20t-2012-infiniti-g25-2012-mercedes-benz-c250-sport-2012-volvo-s60-t6-a- - wd-comparison-tests.pdf

A G37 Sport at $39,750 would still have been the cheapest (!) car tested.

ateixeira · April 2012

even the interior in the smaller car is like a scaled down version of the big barge

I agree...the new 5 has gotten too big/heavy to be the true sports sedan it used to be.

Heck, the one I drove, a 535i, felt a bit laggy. The E350 is more linear even if it's not as fast. The 550GT's V8 was much more satisfying, particularly off the line.

I can't imagine the lag in the still-heavy 528i would be much fun.

hpmctorque · April 2012

Interestingly, BMW keeps setting sales records, even though most models have lost the handling and driving attributes that made earlier ones legends. The only BMW I'd consider now would be a 3-Series, although I'd have to swallow hard to be forced to accept the run-flats. I imagine the 1-Series is an even better driver's car, but I don't care for its proportions and barely usable back seat.

fintail · April 2012

But will a non-sport GS will it be any less of an iso-chamber than an ES? Might be a tough sell if not specifically equipped (AWD).

IS needs some playing with, getting really long in the tooth now. I know the big engine has been tuned and is nice, but LEDs don't hide age.

fintail · April 2012

I think price is secondary for these cars, especially when so many are leased, and big MSRP difference become tiny lease payment differences. The price based argument is logical in a way, but I don't know if the market supports it. A comparison with similar engine displacements or power ratings would have been amusing too.

Now there's a car that needs to move on to a new cosmetic generation, the G. I think the current one dates back to just before the Franco-Prussian war, with barely any updates. The lowly $299 screamer lease G25 and the cars being very popular in fleets now doesn't help. G has to be cheap to make up for some other traits.

Toyota on the mend?

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