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Toyota on the mend?



  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,906
    edited April 2012
    If Lexus is supposedly good at making drivers cars now (I have my doubts), maybe they could make it perform at least like a TL, which is said to not do badly for FWD. FWD doesn't have to be numb and maybe the ES could be made to appeal to those born after Pearl Harbor day. I was basing my assumed similarities on looks more than anything else.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,906
    edited April 2012
    Cost isn't the main factor when you race past 50K. If they aren't all sport package equipped cars, the comparison is invalidated in my eyes. 3er is a funny comparison, with its insane Porsche style ala carte option scheme. The new one I saw on the showroom floor was something like 57K...I remember when an M3 cost a lot less.

    Base 5ers and Es etc have been 4 bangers at home for decades. Hasn't hurt them there. Clatters like mad, DI noise, or it can rumble and vibrate and moan 100% of the time like a boxer engine...

    I'd expect the GS to be very much improved. The previous model was invisible and really not close to the competition, who have all moved on since. It has to be improved.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    edited April 2012
    If they aren't all sport package equipped cars

    Well you made me just curious enough to go and actually look.

    They tested an M37S, which is the Infiniti M-car with the sport package.

    They tested a 535i with the M Sport Package.

    And of course they tested the GS350 with its own F-sport package.

    So the answer to your question is mostly yes, they were. The only one that didn't explicitly say it had a sport package was the A6, which was a 3.0T Quattro. However, it had almost $7000 in options and 255/40/19 PZeros, so I am thinking it probably did have whatever passes for a sport package in that model.

    They called the Audi tinny and uninvolving, that you might just as well be the passenger as be the driver. And they (and many other reviews I have read) simply hate the steering in the new 5-series, which they call numb, and also disliked that the 535i feels like an only-slightly-downsized 7-series - too big and heavy.

    So by contrast, the GS came out on top, as an involving and fun car to drive. It was also about the same price as the Audi and about $5000 less than the 535i, as tested.

    The old GS was a car that no-one thought worth buying, and I figured it might just take a hiatus when its model run was over, so I guess they figured that instead of putting it to rest, they ought to really make it competitive in its class this time around.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,906
    Interesting. Glad they did a like-for-like test. Having driven both a current style 7er and 5er, I can agree with their take on that car - even the interior in the smaller car is like a scaled down version of the big barge. Funny that BMW is now airing an ad that states something like "we don't make luxury sedans" too - yeah right, 7er and 5er are just like the S and E now.

    I think Lexus took a brow beating over the previous GS, and worked 110% to make this new one better. If I was shopping in that category now, I would certainly give it a chance - the one I sat in was impressive.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    ES will (and should) remain the iso-chamber that it is now.

    Some people want that. Plus, having it allows them to play with the IS.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited April 2012
    Cost isn't the main factor when you race past 50K

    Agreed 100%, but in the comparo I'm referring to they put an over $50k Bimmer with the base 4 banger engine up against a $35k Infiniti.

    Fair fight?

    There was a time where the base BMW had the power deficit but had better handling and steering feel, so C&D would rave about how it had "soul" and it would still win.

    Now it's the nearly half-priced Infiniti which had the better handling and superior steering feedback, and was named most fun to drive, yet the winner is .... BMW, even with the nose-bleed price.

    C&D has always loved BMW and Honda, no doubt.

    Spec chart from the comparo, with pricing: - iti-g25-2012-mercedes-benz-c250-sport-2012-volvo-s60-t6-awd2012-bmw-328i-vs-2012- - -audi-a4-20t-2012-infiniti-g25-2012-mercedes-benz-c250-sport-2012-volvo-s60-t6-a- - wd-comparison-tests.pdf

    A G37 Sport at $39,750 would still have been the cheapest (!) car tested.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    even the interior in the smaller car is like a scaled down version of the big barge

    I agree...the new 5 has gotten too big/heavy to be the true sports sedan it used to be.

    Heck, the one I drove, a 535i, felt a bit laggy. The E350 is more linear even if it's not as fast. The 550GT's V8 was much more satisfying, particularly off the line.

    I can't imagine the lag in the still-heavy 528i would be much fun.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,600
    Interestingly, BMW keeps setting sales records, even though most models have lost the handling and driving attributes that made earlier ones legends. The only BMW I'd consider now would be a 3-Series, although I'd have to swallow hard to be forced to accept the run-flats. I imagine the 1-Series is an even better driver's car, but I don't care for its proportions and barely usable back seat.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,906
    But will a non-sport GS will it be any less of an iso-chamber than an ES? Might be a tough sell if not specifically equipped (AWD).

    IS needs some playing with, getting really long in the tooth now. I know the big engine has been tuned and is nice, but LEDs don't hide age.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,906
    I think price is secondary for these cars, especially when so many are leased, and big MSRP difference become tiny lease payment differences. The price based argument is logical in a way, but I don't know if the market supports it. A comparison with similar engine displacements or power ratings would have been amusing too.

    Now there's a car that needs to move on to a new cosmetic generation, the G. I think the current one dates back to just before the Franco-Prussian war, with barely any updates. The lowly $299 screamer lease G25 and the cars being very popular in fleets now doesn't help. G has to be cheap to make up for some other traits.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,906
    When was it really a true sports sedan though? Maybe E39? Or E28? E60 doesn't seem sporty to me. New one is dulled up, but sells like hotcakes as did the softish Bangle E60. I don't know if the average affluent aging customer wants too much sport rather than the image of such.

    I drove a 6 cylinder F11 528i Touring in Germany. Not an off the line speed demon, but a good Autobahn cruiser.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I wasn't crazy about the current IS even when it was new. There's too much sheet metal under the C-pillar, it made the car look heavier than it is. The old IS looked smaller, lighter. I'm sure it was.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The G leases well, though. Residuals are high despite its age.

    So even if you're shopping lease prices, a G37 would easily have fallen in the same price range as the others in the comparison.

    Any how, $50k for a 4 banger 3 series is sheer lunacy. And it won? :confuse:
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,906
    I thought it seemed very modern when new, but that was more or less 7 years ago now. It's also less than roomy feeling inside, and I suspect 80% of sales are IS250... sold to spoiled daddys girls and middle aged yawners who might even be duller than those who buy the competition. The model needs some new life and yesterday.

    Old one was certainly a size smaller.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,906
    edited April 2012
    Subsidized residuals at end of lease, or actual sales? Resale percentage might be good because it doesn't have so far to fall. Has to be a low margin vehicle, one that also needs an update now.

    50K for that car is insane, just like you can easily build a 335d to virtually 60K - I can get a nicely equipped E350 Bluetec (or a nice new GS) for that money. Which would I rather drive?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Only a few very competitive models can last 7 years and not seem dated. Very rare.

    For $50k I'd drop $35k on a Genesis as a trip/highway car and than another $15k on some city car to commute in.

    $50k is a condo not a compact car.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,906
    Does it really not seem dated though? It's looking old to me, but maybe just because I know how old it is.

    For 50, I can't imagine the possibilities. Maybe 30K for a show car (AMG SEC), 15K for a road car (W124 500E), 5K for a commuter (old diesel). Makes new cars look silly.

    50K is a down payment on a condo in my area ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Maybe in Panama. They say it has the cost of living of the USA in the 1950s. :surprise:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited May 2012
    2nd month with double digit increases. Ford and GM were down, though the overall market was up 2%: 2/05/01/LA98291

    Funny thing is, supply for some models is short: - t-selling-cars-.html#more

    4 in the top 9 are Toyota/Lexus.

    Prius, CT, Yaris, GS, and Highlander did well.

    2011 was down 1.7% in part due to the tsunami, so this represents a real gain even over the 2010 figures.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,277

    Beat out both the Civic and the Corolla. :surprise:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I think they include Prius + Prius c + Prius V in that total.

    Then again, Ford groups the F-150 with the massive diesel chassis cabs.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    edited May 2012
    15% of all Toyota sales were to fleets last month, a new high for Toyota, which they explain by saying(quoting Bob Carter) that they cancelled all fleet orders last year due to the tsunami so now they are catching up and will be through early May, during which period fleet sales will approach 20%.

    Not good, but they say thay are targeting a fleet sales rate of 6% for the remainder of the year.

    Funny thing is that many of the top-selling Toyota models (except Yaris) are mostly not sold to fleets. Personally, I think something is very wrong (with the Corolla) when Prius outsells Corolla.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • mcdawggmcdawgg Posts: 1,680
    And Corolla outsold the Civic, so the Civic is even worse?

    I see that Honda is spending more on rebates than Toyota, and Toyota's rebate spending is quite low.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Prius includes 3 models, though.

    Remember gas hit $4.20 or so, at least around here.

    Ironically it's down below $4, so demand should start to cool. Sales will still be strong because prices will come back down to earth. Go see in the CCB thread what a used Prius was selling for - crazy money.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited May 2012

    Why is this relevant?

    Because it looks like they used the Toyota-influenced FA20 block for this, so it gets direct injection, twin scroll turbo, etc. They also engineered a CVT with 8 ratios for the paddle shifter in Sport # mode.

    I think that stealthy non-Outback GT wagon looks great, personally.

    Any how, it's likely the Scion FR-S will get some form of this new engine, though I'm not sure it it'll make the full 300hp.

    Looks like Toyota is helping Subaru to meet CAFE standards. The current STI gets 17/23 on premium, not exactly a Prius. :D

    I bet the new one jumps way up to 20/29 or so. In the video you see a Legacy GT wagon cruising around at under 1500rpm at times, so should yield good driving range.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,277
    They better do something to minimize the CVT whine with that one because it completely killed any chance that I was going to buy a new Impreza (I wanted leather trim which isn't available with the stick)

    Even with the stereo on the whine was overbearing. :sick:

    Otherwise, love the idea of a Legacy wagon again!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited May 2012
    More details are creeping out...

    295 hp SAE, 296 lb-ft from 2000-4600 rpm.

    Hopefully the sportier models get manual transmissions, Subaru has been pretty good about that lately (WRX is manual ONLY).

    I'm now thinking the FR-S, BRZ, and WRX will get this tune, and the STI could get a 2.5 turbo with even more power. We'll see.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,906
    I didn't read the details, so is it a boxer or normal engine?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited May 2012
    Boxer, we think it's based on the same block from the FT 86, trying to verify that...

    Lexus could end up using the same engine.
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