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Let me hasten to add that I strongly disagree with some of the commentary after the article that adheres to the "Darwinism" school of driving. In fact, I find it repulsive.
One witness reported that she was driving north on state Route 125 at Grossmont College Drive when she saw a white Lexus going about 45 to 50 mph with its emergency flashers on, “surging like it was out of gas.” She passed the car, then saw in her rearview mirror that it was pulling over to the right shoulder and lost sight of it.
Seconds later, the car zoomed past her.
“I’ve never seen a car go that fast,” she told investigators. Another witness described the speeding sedan as a “white blur.”
The report concludes that while other factors — electrical, mechanical or computer glitches — cannot be ruled out because of the severity of damage to the car, the sudden acceleration was caused by the gas pedal trapped either in the grooves of the mat or underneath it.
Conclusion:
So this is saying the car actually was stopped on the shoulder at one time!!!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I certainly won't post a personal criticism in response.
None of the possibilities has been proven not possible such as computer glitches. Indeed, other sources such as the one I heard today from an area shop owner indicate they are more possible. Since I am not a dealer or any brand nor do I work for any dealership or auto company, I have only my personal opinion and some scientific logic. E.g., does anyone think the driver did not attempt to put the car into neutral? E.g., does anyone think the driver did not attempt to stop the car with the brakes? E.g., does anyone think the driver did not attempt to shut down the computer with the "On" button?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
In that scenario, you have one or two good attempts to stop the car with the brakes alone. Obviously that didn't happen (or atleast they still didn't turn the engine off or get it into neutral), so braking power was nearly nonexistant the whole time the throttle was stuck. The on/off button require something like 3 seconds of being depressed to turn the engine off. That's a long time in a panic situation and if your not aware that's how it works, I can easilly envision someone in a panic just repeatingly pushing on the button with nothing happening. Regarding shifting into neutral, I simply don't know. Looking at the shifter on an ES350, it's gated shifter and simply pushing it forward will not engage neutral, it has to be moved to the right and up. Maybe he tried and only downshifted a gear or two, which would still allow 100+ mph speeds or maybe sometype of problem kept it from going into neutral.
But, it sounds like the dealer is up a creek if someone reported the floormat sticking the throttle and they didn't do anything about it. Yikes.
Disconnect the wheels from the power source and the vehicle slows down. This solves the problem every time.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The guy driving it before when the throttle stuck was able to get it into neutral with the throttle stuck. He did mention he couldn't get the engine to turn off even when in neutral. I'm guessing the 3 second delay is the issue.
Maybe push button start/stop buttons that your finding in many vehicles is a bad idea.
Just a horribly unfortunate accident that shouldn't have happened.
a couple of weeks ago, i got the opportunity to drive one.
it had the usual straight 'prnd...", plus manual +/- off to one side.
one time i touched the shift and knocked it over into the manual mode, which was not my intention.
it was kind a shock considering i have been a pretty frequent poster here regarding what happened in the california incident.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
That secretary needs an attorney now. It doesn't sound like she exercised reasonable diligence. OR, the tech to whom she says she told the problem is the one at fault and is lying that she didn't tell him.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
In the sheriff’s report, Bernard told investigators that he had the car, one in a fleet of loaners belonging to the Lexus dealership, on Aug. 24 and 25. He said that on the second day, while merging onto Interstate 15 from the Poway Road on-ramp, he took his foot off the gas and the car kept accelerating, to 85 mph.
Bernard pressed long and hard on the brakes and was able to pull over and slow down. He put the car into neutral, but the engine continued to race at full speed. After several failed attempts at turning off the engine, he realized the floor mat had jammed the gas pedal.
He slid his foot under the accelerator, dislodged it and had no further problems, the report says.
Bernard reported that the receptionist said he should tell the detail specialist on the lot when he picked up his car. Bernard did not say anything further and assumed the receptionist would tell the appropriate people.
In her initial interview with investigators Sept. 17 at the dealership, the receptionist, Jessica Martin-Dunleavy, 20, said she did not remember Bernard or any specific complaints. In an off-site interview two weeks later, Martin-Dunleavy said that she did recall an older couple returning a car and that the man told her “the mat made the car go full-throttle.”
She then said she told the detail specialist on duty. That employee, Octaviano Garcia, 44, said no one mentioned anything to him about the problem with the car, according to investigators.
The Dealer will have a lot to explain in court.
Dave Ezratty, vice president of Bob Baker Lexus El Cajon, declined to meet with a Union-Tribune reporter who went to the dealership yesterday seeking comment.
“It often takes a very detailed and persistent effort to get to the real truth,” Schoville said.
In the report, Ezratty told sheriff’s officials that the dealership takes out the stock carpet mats of its loaner cars and replaces them with all-weather mats. He said they do not mix and match floor mats and that a mat for a Lexus SUV would not be placed in a sedan because it would not fit. Ezratty told investigators he was confident that the correct mats are always used.
The investigation found that the loaner car’s mat was about 2 inches longer than the one intended for that model and was made for the 2005-09 Lexus RX 400H sport utility vehicle.
In a nondriving test at the dealership by investigators, the same type of mat was placed in a Lexus ES 350 and the pedal, when pushed down, became entrapped.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2009/dec/04/report-loaner-car-in-fatal-crash-- had-earlier/
And they're getting trapped under the accelerator and causing hyper-speeding. Yikes, hopefully they've seen the error of their ways and have corrected anything like this ever having a chance of happening again. Very Tragically un-Hip, dudes and dudettes.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
if you asked them if they had any training regarding vehicle safety related issues, i'm guessing their answer would be none.
most receptionist/cashiers at dealerships are hired because they look nice.
'off site interview' = sheriff's office
The tragedy is beyond words, but maybe this whole exercise will save many lives in the future.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
actually, from my perspective, there is no conclusion, yet.
I've actually done it at 55 and 65 mph in my own cars. Others on places like PriusChat have done it at WOT at 85 mph. I don't think any civilian is going to try doing it at 100+ mph. There's no problem whatsoever in not being able to shift into neutral in the examples noted.
If it was the floor mat sticking the accelerator pedal:
Why did he not just let the wife hold the wheel and reach down there and pull it loose !!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!
This whole thing makes less sense, not more, as it goes on.
The investigation found that the loaner car’s mat was about 2 inches longer than the one intended for that model and was made for the 2005-09 Lexus RX 400H sport utility vehicle.
In a nondriving test at the dealership by investigators, the same type of mat was placed in a Lexus ES 350 and the pedal, when pushed down, became entrapped.
Stuck in the open-throttle position, Saylor’s loaner car reached speeds calculated between 112 and 150 mph. Saylor was driving, his wife was in the front seat, and Mahala and Lastrella were in back.
The Dealer is responsible for the deaths.
Actually I wasn't in the car but have an open mind and consider the logic and the hypotheses as to what could have happened. To use a folksy example, Judge Judy might conclude, if it doesn't make sense, it's not the way it happened: if the person in the car could have shifted into neutral, why would they not have shifted? Was something preventing it? Shift into 1st, Park, 2nd, 3rd.
There's reason he didn't shift to neutral and the question in my post to which yours is a response asked if the
shift control is electronic and controlled by the computer or a subcomputer which might have prevented shifting because of computer malfunction?
Inability to shift because the computer won't shift is a logical hypothesis, still unanswered. I was thinking a thoroughly knowledgeable person who sells Toyotas would have the answer to that question.
It's really hard to think the driver is saying, "Hold on Honey, eventually I'll see if this barge will shift into neutral but I won't try it now because I'm concentrating on staying in my lane!!!"
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I totally agree. Testing a Prius or Venza to 50-60-85 MPH is irrelevant to going 120 MPH plus in an ES350, trying to get the shifter to respond. Will the EDR shed light on that? I have a feeling the investigators already know. It is probably sealed evidence for the trial that could be a block buster.
That is absolutely incorrect. I currently own two Lexus' and the normal DRIVE position is to the right side. You just have to bump straight up from drive to neutral. Very simple, very easy. If you want to manually shift you move the lever to the left side.
We have gone over this several times in this thread..but it seems the truth just doesn't sink in.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
BUT when I heard the area auto repair facility owner say acceleration had happened to HIM while driving and there were NO floor mats..., my estimate of more nonpublic info sludging up the facts here went to high alert. He also said he had people with problem cars long before this current knowledge hit the skidpad!!!
Just as with the sludge, the longer this drags out, the more the past stellar reliability reputation nurtured with almost every advertisement dollar will fall to earth. A lady calling about her Matrix wanting to surge ahead at random times indicated she's trading the car because she's afraid of it unless the dealer will do more than fix it. The dealer won't look at it because it won't do it for them was her report. I suspect it will go to this talk show host's garage before the lady is done--she'll pay at her own cost. She's very unhappy with the dealer.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
My mistake, I was going by what I've seen in pictures and it's not straight forward by looking at it, but I can still see in a panic situation someone inadvertently moving the shifter to the left, thus moving forward will not engage neutral.
The entire slot on the left is for manual shifting. The shifter stays in the middle automatically. The top of the slot or the + means up one gear and the - at the bottom means down one gear. The N is positioned where it looks like it means the slot on the left but it actually is for the top of the slot on the adjoining spot on the right. There was just no other spot to put it.
Yes, people are apt to do almost anything if there is enough stress involved.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Regulators are looking into complaints of stalling -- in some cases at highway speeds -- in Corolla and Matrix cars from model year 2006. The investigation covers an estimated 397,000 vehicles.
It's the latest in a string of quality-related issues for the Japanese automaker in recent months.
The new investigation is another blow to an automaker that has seen its long-held reputation for quality come under attack amid a flurry of safety-related recalls and investigations this year.
Toyota has announced recalls of more than 4.8 million cars and trucks in the U.S. and Canada since January.
NHTSA's records of complaints show numerous incidents of Corolla and Matrix vehicles stalling, often in situations in which other vehicles could strike the car.
The agency indicates that the problem could be linked to the electronic control module, or onboard computer. Toyota on its own issued a technical service bulletin to its dealers two years ago calling for replacement of that component in Corolla or Matrix vehicles experiencing "harsh shift."
Neither the Corolla nor the Matrix is included in the massive recall announced last week.
I'm sure the officer tried to do that.
Again I'm glad that you had a God's eye view of what happened in this tragedy. You should have been able to avoid it though don't you think? .
Again here you state categorically - because you had this God's eye view - what actions the driver did or didn't do. ...your words.
There's reason he didn't shift to neutral and the question in my post to which yours is a response asked if the
shift control is electronic and controlled by the computer or a subcomputer which might have prevented shifting because of computer malfunction?
Or do you think it's more likely that you're simply guessing based on no facts whatsoever. This is a common tactic in an argument directed toward the weak minded where you state a non-fact fact and work off that basis. The only problem is that your entire hypothesis is based on a non-fact fact. IOW you're making sh** up.
Try it. I have.
ODI Defect Investigations
They cover..
MB ML's
Odysseys
Accords
Sables
Volvo trucs
Malibu and Malibu Maxxs
Infinity Q45 and M45
Sequoias
Odysseys again
Freestars and Monterrys
Imprezas
Honda Passport
Saab 9-3
Saab 9-3 again
Edge and MKZ
Sorrentos
Jettas and A3 TTs
Wranglers
XC90s
Escapes
Chrysler minivans
Accords, Civic and TLs
Tundras
F150s
BMWs
Mazda MX8s
Explorers
Corvettes
Tahoes and Yukons..
That seems to cover almost the entire industry. Some are still open and some are closed. Life goes on.
it may have changed after the accident anyway.
it may have changed after the accident anyway.
The forces during that awful crash would probably have moved it or it would have moved as bodies hit it.
I want to know what was found in the black box info.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
LOL. Well that is what people do when they are engaged in a battle of wits...and realize that they are unarmed !!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Was that Deputy Fife by any chance? I thought Sheriff Taylor told him to keep that bullet in his pocket?
The investigation came as Japanese automaker Toyota has recalled more than 4.2 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles to fix a problem in which small clearance areas between the gas pedal and the rubber floor mats have caused accelerators to stick open and produce uncontrolled acceleration, the newspaper said.
The San Diego County Sheriff's Department's probe of the accident that killed CHP Officer Mark Saylor, his wife, daughter and brother-in-law, concluded that while floor mats in the loaner car may have played a role, other factors such as electronic or mechanical problems couldn't be ruled out, the Times said.
The sheriff's probe reportedly revealed an employee of the car dealership that lent the Lexus to Saylor had been warned about the sudden acceleration problem three days before the crash by another customer who had been using the same car.
Lol, that could be a much longer list of things you couldn't rule out. Another article about SPECULATION, so nothing new.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The wasting of tax dollars is so rampant that it is almost meaningless at this point. I am afraid we are past the point of no return. I don't have any answers there.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
>we will probably never know why he did not or could not shift into neutral.
And we'll never know if he tried to shift into neutral, some would have us believe.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
He was probably calling to the back seat, "Hold on Honey..." if I recall what he said.
Actually having an adult male in the passenger seat makes it even more interesting that the car wouldn't have gotten into neutral because he would possibly be a more likely candidate to help move the shift lever, "Help me get this darn thing into neutral, Joe, It won't quit accelerating." Or to help pull the mat from under the accelerator.
Another interesting _nonspeculative_ question is had this driver had an ES350 version from the dealership before? If it were not new to this driver then he knew how to get it into neutral if it cooperated when the shift lever was moved.
Or how far had he driven it after picking it up from the dealership? How many times had he parked it and moved that shift lever? The records about his knowledge of a similar car would be very interesting.
Has anyone seen that information discussed?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I found this news site that gives the transcript of the 911 call:
http://www.sandiego6.com/news/local/story/Santee-CHP-officer-Saylor-killed-Lexus- -accelerator/AzYjOhtvFE2mIuxTtxrK4Q.cspx?p=2
There is also a link to the audio of the call, but I didn't want to listen to that. Those poor people.
Here is another interesting site I stumbled on that has a lot of info on unintended acceleration: http://www.safetyresearch.net/2009/07/20/sudden-acceleration/
"The NHTSA has investigated Toyota eight times for unintended acceleration, but has only considered the electronic throttle in two of those cases. During the first probe, the NHTSA asked Toyota’s throttle supplier to investigate the possibility of a faulty electronic throttle. Not surprisingly, the supplier found nothing wrong with the unit. During the second investigation, the NHTSA found that a magnetic field could cause a sudden 1,000 RPM spike in engine speed, but reported the electronic throttle “showed no vulnerabilities to electric signal activities” in its findings.
"Moreover, Toyota has issues three service bulletins involving its drive-by-wire system, the most recent warning the system could “exhibit a surging during light throttle input at speeds between 38 mph and 42 mph.”"
"Additionally, a glitch in the system wouldn’t necessarily throw an error code to the car’s computer, leaving the defect virtually untraceable.
"Whatever the case, there seems to be far more to Toyota’s unintended acceleration problems than just a set of faulty floor mats — especially considering many of the cases involved vehicles with the floor mats already removed."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Driving requires effective coordination of visual, motor, and cognitive skills. Visual skills are pushed to their limit at night by decreased illumination and by disabling glare from oncoming headlights. High intensity discharge (HID) headlamps project light farther down roads, improving their owner’s driving safety by increasing the time available for reaction to potential problems. Glare is proportional to headlamp brightness, however, so increasing headlamp brightness also increases potential glare for oncoming drivers, particularly on curving two lane roads. This problem is worse for older drivers because of their increased intraocular light scattering, glare sensitivity, and photostress recovery time. An analysis of automobile headlights, intraocular stray light, glare, and night driving shows that brightness rather than blueness is the primary reason for the visual problems that HID headlights can cause for older drivers who confront them. The increased light projected by HID headlights is potentially valuable, but serious questions remain regarding how and where it should be projected.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1771460/
The worst are Toyota, Lexus and BMW. Another neighbor has an Escalade that does not seem to be as intense to my eyes. HID kits are illegal from what I can find.
Try it. I have.
Thanks.
But I trust you.
So are we any closer to just naming the AW floor mats as the culprit? Or is it a tie that goes to the runner...still? Who's steering the Titanic as we contemplate our navels, here? Sheesh, this is forward progress?
I think we're making more progress here on Edmunds News and Views...it's the AW floor mats!
Anyone want to vote AW floor mats? Or ECU drive-by-wire and floor mats?
I vote for the floor mats by theirselves.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Like I have posted several times, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that a grown man cannot manage to pull up a stuck floor mat when the options are:
1. Leave it and die, or
2. Pull it up and live.
There is just no scenario I can realistically imagine which would prevent a grown man, WITH DEATH AS HIS OTHER OPTION, from reaching down and pulling out the "stuck" floor mat.
One of the stories said the other grown adult was the front seat passenger? That just strengthens my resolve in being stubborn and saying that he would have said, "Hold the wheel while I pull this mat out - it's jamming the pedal !!!!"
Had to be something other than ONLY the stuck floor mat. Had to be.
No other situation makes any sense at all.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460