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If I believed as you do, I would take my Camry to the dealer and tell them you want your money back. You obviously believe that Toyota has a faulty design in their ECU. Have you ever tried driving in heavy traffic at 120+ MPH. There is not a lot of time to think about anything but avoiding all the cars. That stretch of 125 is busy all day long. It sounds to me like the floor mat never occurred to either the cop or his passenger. After all they were in one of Toyota's finest luxury vehicles. Why would they have any problems at all?
My advice. You want performance & Luxury. Buy German NOT Japanese. The Japanese have the HP without the needed braking or handling to support it.
It's an insult to the driver to say it was the floor mat in the process of causing his death, but he was too "whatever" to bend down there and pull it loose.
It's an insult to the driver to say he was too "whatever" to think about putting the car into neutral.
It's easy to say "Oh, he panicked" and did not think about either of those options.
I'm not buying it.
And Gary, yes, my TCH might have the same software problem that caused this Lexus crash. But I already ran the test on my car, and I found out I can put the car in neutral at WOT and eliminate the issue. Or put the car into park as a last resort.
And since I rarely ever drive faster than 65 MPH, my car would never end up at 120 MPH without my having taken recourse.
More speculation:
But..maybe it did occur to him...and he did it but he did it was too late. By all reports he was going 100+ mph on the Freeway and from reports his brakes seemed to have lost stopping power due to being worn out while at WOT. Then the vehicle started going downhill on the Freeway exit at 120 mph with no stopping power.
I for one wouldn't be fiddling around with my mat if the car was going 100 mph in traffic. Nor would I expect my wife to unbuckle her belt in such a critical situation and try to find out what's going on down in the footwell.
As kdhspyder says, shift to neutral and live.
Have any of you experienced panic, as in a possible threat to life situation? I have, in incidents while swimming in the ocean and I found myself not able to easily return to the shore. The panic envelopes you, but in my case I had TIME. Time to float on my back in the water to rest and force that panic down. Time to figure out the best course of action. In two of 3 cases, I was able to swim strongly, rest, swim again, and eventually my feet touched bottom.
In the 3rd case, where I must have caught a rip current and got swept out with a boogie board, I decided to hold on to the board for floatation. There were enough people around and a father/son team of surfers came out and rescued me.
Needless to say, I don't go into the water above my head anymore in the ocean.
Where is the evidence that some of these incidents occurred without floor mats? Links please.
The Corolla/Matrix stalling out is not the same issue as the alleged sudden acceleration and does not occur on the cars involved in the recall, to my knowledge.
Kdhspyder has done us a service by posting ALL of the NHTSA defect investigations in progress as of November 2009 -- many makes/models from most manufacturers are under some form of investigation; this doesn't mean that an actual defect will be found in all cases.
Personally, I don't think you can convict the mats because too much of the information is circumstantial. However, the same goes for electronics getting the blame. I'm sticking with my initial opinion that there isn't enough info to decide the case. I still think Toyota has some homework to do, but I believe that after initially appearing a bit nonchalant, Toyota has take a good step in implementing the brake override like VW/Audi. Personally. I'd buy a Toyota right now.
If someone does that, they are ridiculed as "playing God." :P
Somehow logical things aren't to be considered as possibly having happened.
Here's a link to a good analysis of Toyota narrowing which data to report and the NHSTA narrowing which incidents were similar and concluding there is no pattern; it sounds like East Anglia University's group mishandling data on another topic.
LA Times: :lemon:
link title
"When asked to submit its own complaint data to the NHTSA, Toyota eliminated reports claiming that sudden acceleration occurred for "a long duration," or more than a few seconds. Elsewhere, the company said a fail-safe in its throttle system makes such an event impossible."
"In March, Jeffrey Pepski of Plymouth, Minn., formally requested that the NHTSA reopen two closed investigations into Toyota and Lexus vehicles for the acceleration problem, arguing in part that 10 other motorists had experienced sudden acceleration that could not be explained by floor mats.
The NHTSA looked at the 10 cases and tossed them out. The agency's way of looking at them sharply contrasted with the drivers' original accounts.
In one case, the driver of a 2007 Lexus ES 350 reported that the sedan accelerated into a building, bounced backward, struck another vehicle and ended up on top of a snowbank.
But federal officials described the same case as a "single incident of alleged engine surge while parking vehicle. No trouble found by dealer."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Try it. I have.
so, the computer in your prius defaults to neutral when you try to put in in park while in motion.
thats great. (not sure what that has to do with a lexus) but how do you...or anybody else know what would happen in a case of a computer malfunction? I admit I dont know the answer ...but i would say its quite possible that maybe it wont go into neutral. That doesnt necessarily mean im 100% sure its a computer problem, but unlike some people i wouldnt rule it out just yet.
Im also having a real hard time believing that a patrol officer in a runaway car, has enough time to think to call 911 then find the phone, dial, tell the operator whats happening etc. but never had time to try and put the car in neutral? nor anybody else in the car thought of it?
I don't rule out anything either. However until real hard data and evidence is discovered by someone, anyone, neutral and reputable I will go with my own experiences and those of my wife. In 6 recent model Toyotas from 2000 onward covering some 500,000 miles of driving....
There are no problems associated with the DBW systems.
No OEM mat has ever come loose when it's been secured in place.
No OEM mat has ever come close to the GO pedal.
That's my own data and evidence. I trust my own experience and data accumulation over anyone else's - certainly over anyone else's speculations - until some real hard data and evidence is presented. Now if I'm going to worry about every risk in the world occuring no matter how remote it might be then I'd better stay in bed everyday. 100% certain? I've never been the overly-cautious type on any subject. IMO life is meant to be lived actively not to be lived in a state of cautious fear of the unknown future. If some real data is presented then I'll simply get the update done and continue on as I am right now. Until then I'm doing nothing.
******************************
The driver did not call 911, his BiL called. Stay with the facts. The rest is speculations.
Toyota exec: Recall cost small vs. exchange loss
December 7, 2009 - 12:01 am ET
TOKYO -- The cost of Toyota Motor Corp.'s largest U.S. recall is small change compared to the hit the company is taking from foreign exchange losses, a top executive says.
Unlike the expense of recalling 3.8 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles to fix their accelerators, the bite of the rapidly climbing yen threatens company efforts to return to profits after two straight years of losses, Executive Vice President Yukitoshi Funo said.
"The overall impact on our business is not so huge," Funo said of the recall costs. "It's not on the order that would determine the difference between being in the black or in the red."
...."There are many factors in returning to the black," and foreign exchange is the biggest, Funo said. "It won't be so easy to return to profit in the next fiscal year."
Funo didn't give a dollar figure for the U.S. recall cost. But at the company's last earnings press conference in early November, it said it is bracing for a ¥420.0 billion ($4.77 billion) hit from foreign exchange losses in the fiscal year ending March 31, 2010.
....Toyota, which exported just over half of its Japan-made vehicles in the first nine months of this year, estimates that every ¥1 fall in the dollar erases $34.1 million of operating profit.
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091207/OEM02/312079941/1128-
But whose fault is this really? This is an issue Toyota has visited many times in the past, and yet it persists because they do little about it. Just this year they are closing NUMMI and have yet to open the new Mississippi plant. They are so attached to the notion that their workers in Japan have their jobs for life that they won't move the production to where it is needed.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But...note that in the November sales figures that 68% of the sales were produced in NA. This effectively cancels out the currency issue. That 68% is huge and climbing as the Highlander is transferred to Princeton IN.
Yaris sales...way down
Prius sales...down a little
Scion sales...way down
4Runner sales...way down
FJ Cruiser sales...who cares
Land Cruiser sales...who cares
Highlander sales...being transferred to Princeton IN
RAV sales...now at Woodstock ON
Lexus sales are the ???. Except for the RX in Cambridge ON I believe that the rest of the Lexus models are made in Japan.
Also the currency issue is a bit of legal flim flam. It has to be calculated for financial reporting purposes but that doesn't mean that there's an actual loss. Financial reporting is always done 'As if......'.
Exactly right. It begs credulity to that that he didn't. Also if he'd driven the car more than out of the dealership, he had put it into park at least once, and likely more times. So all he had to do was try to move it to park or any other gear.
Also if you look at the LA TImes link I posted a few back, Toyota claims their car wouldn't have suffered long term unintended acceleration because there was a computer safeguard. (They don't address short term unintended acceleration.) Do their cars have a computer check to avoid long term unintended acceleration? The talk about a brake interrupt on acceleration is a new idea, but why didn't they mention earlier that a long term acceleration that's unintended would be impossible?
The stories just don't add up.
Search the links out there for unintended acceleration and lexus, camry, toyota, etc. There are many that talk about no floor mats involved.
Actually I suspect the floor mat here started the cascade of events. But after I heard the local mechanical repair shop owner saw that he had been driving a Camry with unintended acceleration occurring to him and there were NO floor mats involved..., red flags really went up.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
ohhhhh so the BiL had the state of mind to call 911 but he never thought of telling the driver to put the car in neutral either, ok,got it now.
you, know for someone who is sooo quick to point out that they want facts for everything that you dont agree with. you should really have a look at your own posts that are full of "i believe"s ...and "imho"s .... when did these become facts? Altho im sure that if this was gm on the hot seat there would be all kinds of "facts"being tossed around here :sick:
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
initial report
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Everyone please click on Steve's path to the Chicago Tribune's article then read the whole article then post your message. It explains why the driver could have froze. Have any of you been so afraid that you get tunnel vision? If not then you might not understand. For those who are saying he is a cop he should not get afraid well that was his family in that car and its more than just his own safety he was worried about.
I talked about my own incidents of panic back in post #3813, but I nobody commented on it -- maybe because it had nothing to do with driving? But such panic shakes you down to your very core.
I'd like to know more about this. Did you speak with him personally, or was he on TV? Was there no floor mat present in the car, or did he say that even though a floor mat was present, it wasn't the problem, but there was sudden acceleration anyway? How did he get the car to stop? At one point I thought you were discussing Click and Clack, but now you say local (Dayton?)
More details please.
It's interesting though how the accounts change of specific incidents:
SAN LUIS OBISPO, CA – On February 5, 2007, Bulent and Anne Ezal were headed to lunch at the Pelican Point Restaurant in Pismo Beach, California. The restaurant is nestled on the edge of a cliff, affording dramatic views of the Pacific Ocean below. The parking lot was downhill of the restaurant, so Ezal rode the brakes of his 2005 Camry as he approached a parking space. He was at a complete stop, when the Camry suddenly accelerated, jumping a small curb, crashing through a fence and over the bluff. The vehicle fell 70 feet to the rocks below, and turned over once, coming to rest in the surf. Anne Ezal died of her injuries in the crash. Bulent Ezal later recovered.
Seven months later, Jean Bookout and her friend Barbara Schwarz were exiting Interstate Highway 69 in Oklahoma – also in a 2005 Camry. As she sped down the ramp, Bookout, the driver, realized that she could not stop her car. She pulled the parking brake, leaving a 100-foot skid mark from right rear tire, and a 50-foot skid mark from the left. The Camry, however, continued speeding down the ramp, across the road at the bottom, and finally came to rest with its nose in an embankment. Schwarz died of her injuries; Bookout spent two months recovering from head and back injuries.
So the LA Times and Safety Research & Strategies don't agree on some key points -- whom do you believe? (The SRS version of the first incident has all the earmarks of "pedal misapplication," and you could make a plausible argument for the same thing in the second case as well.)
Unfortunately, doesn't really matter if this thing gets rolling in the media. Combine it with Tundra rust, Camry unintended acceleration questions and the like and it it can become a PR nightmare - ask VW Audi. Bottom line is Toyota needs to get a handle and halt it before it starts rollling or combined these things can hurt image and margins.
Maybe, but this would have to occur over a long time; consider how long it took GM to fall from grace. For another take, see this.
These events and reports will cement of the negative views of the ones with an inbred antipathy toward Toyota but the other 30-40 million who are not having any such problems like my wife and I, you, houdini, mcdawgg and others will look at our own experiences and say ' None of this applies to me. When and if it does I'll react. In the meanwhile we've driven 500,000 miles with one single problem on one single vehicle..'
26 reports on 600,000+ vehicles sold over two years? Are you kidding me? The reports are not even investigated yet to see if there's any basis for action or not. Many of the investigations that I noted in the link in the prior post are closed with no action.
Though I haven't had my car nearly as long as you guys, it still drives just like brand new; smooth and with a quiet engine.
It almost seems as if there's like a witch-hunt going on right now
against Toyota/Lexus. This is just IMHO.
Mine was not inbred. It started with a POC 1964 Toyota Land Cruiser made out of Lucky Lager beer cans. The metals and parts in the 6 cylinder engine that was a direct copy of a Chevy 6, were substandard. Cost me a lot of time and money to keep it running after the warranty ran out. A new comer to Toyota such as yourself would not know what early owners went through so you could have a favorable experience with your recent model Toyotas. They really did not get their act together for about 30 years after opening up shop in the USA. Now they have gotten too big for their britches and the walls are tumbling down. Too bad, so sad. It happens to the best.
Todays trivia question. How many times has Bob used the statement above in this forum?
Would I count as an early owner? '75 Corolla wagon, lasted 17 years of trouble-free driving, more than 200K miles from a car designed and built in the SEVENTIES for goodness' sake.
My folks had one of the first '84 vans which was running strong at 220K when they sold it around 2000, was still running last year as they sold it to a neighbor.
My manager has an '85 pickup that he says he would not part with for all the tea in China. 250K, running strong, may finally need a carb rebuild, original engine and auto trans.
gagrice, I honestly think you may be a malcontent, someone who will never be fully satisfied by any vehicle he owns. As such, I am not surprised that you have groused so much about the Sequoia you bought DESPITE all these past experiences, supposedly bad, you had with Toyotas. It will amuse me when you go back to GM as you will grouse then about whatever you buy from them. Or maybe you will get a "subpar" VW for your next vehicle, who knows....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Oh, the Rabbit could run rings around the Corolla (when it was running) and had a much more useable rear seat, plus it was a hatchback.
In the blizzard of '78 in Indiana, both cars were immobilized by heavy snow accumulation inside their engine compartments. (There was also an MG convertible across from us that had a pile of snow in the interior -- and yes the top was up).
The Corolla fired right up once my FIL vacuumed out the snow and put starter fluid down the carburetor. The Rabbit had a partially exposed timing belt, which slipped off its cogs when I tried to start it. Result: another tow to the shop!
Interesting about the blizzard. I was in the Cincinnati area and my 1961 Chevrolet with lots of miles on it started just fine. I had bought it from a friend when I had a wrecked car to drive while mine was repaired. But it started and ran, no matter what.
Also the connection to your post is in that era there were lots of VWs that were stranded all around the Cincy area whenever it got bitterly cold, perhaps below 10 deg. F. during years in that period.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
As for Toyota, I expect they will resolve their issues. Overall I like their products. However, I have mixed feelings on all of the current issues. I don't want it ruining my resale value down the road, but I wouldn't mind the problems yielding me a good bargain on a new one. Yeah, I'm a typical "want it all" American!
I'm glad Toyota wised up and is going to do a comprehensive fix to the Camry including a brake override whether the posters think its necessary or not. You are best off long term doing the right thing for your customers and erroring on the side of caution when it comes to potential safety matters. Frankly, Ford left a bad taste in my mouth with their cruise control fiasco. It was just a few vehicles, then more, then even more and finally thousands of them that might catch on fire or even burn your garage and house down. That was on top of the Explorer roll over fiasco. Made me kind of lose trust and faith in their honesty and ethics, Hopefuly, Mullaly is changing that as well.
That is not true. You have never seen me complain about my 1970 Datsun 2WD PU truck. It was a great vehicle that took me through 7 Alaskan winters without using chains. I kept 200 lbs in the back and had studded tires for the winter. I lived up a fairly steep hill. I also loved my 1984 Ford full sized Bronco. So far with 3 Toyotas over 45 years, none were what I would call great vehicles. The Sequoia being the nicest so far. Still lots to grouse about. As long as the Feds have anything to do with GM I will resist the temptation. So far VW has not brought anything to our shores that tempts me.
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2009249
Seems that Ford dominates the top NAV units. So a Ford could be in my future. I like both the Flex and Edge/MKX. They are more advanced than Toyota at this time.
I know what you mean. I am a stickler for having a good rear seat armrest in my cars and that is what I plan on basing my next car purchase on.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
As for Ford, they are clearly on a roll, and I would be rooting for them to show Toyota a thing or two in the sales department.
Despite all the mea culpas of the last 5-6 years, I am still not convinced that Toyota execs have REALLY comprehended how far the product has fallen, but perhaps Ford surpassing them in North American sales would finally be the thing that would make the message sink in.
Of course, with the Fords you mention, the big issue is tons of porky weight (they are both way too heavy for their size and seating capacity, but then you are into big vehicles gagrice) and way too much exterior chrome. A person could go blind on a sunny day....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
i just renewed her sirius subscription for 2 years.
although i believe technically separate from nav, she really likes the bluetooth feature, but needs a new phone in order for the sync system to recognize her mobile phone book.
These functions that I call 'people features' are advancing a lot faster than automotive technology. Like computers, 2 yrs old and they're way out of date.
does toyota have anything comparable to 'sync' yet?
i am sure a few years they will catch up.
it looked great, although i can't remember what the wheel covers looked like.
i think they had a 'tri' kind of design.
Man, you are one good reason to keep coming to these Edmunds 'News and Views' threads.
I have no particular mayhem to bring against Toyota. Around 2004-2007 I fell pretty deeply for three Toyota-made products. But I never pulled the trigger on any of them. Those rigs were the 2005 Scion tC, the 2006 Scion xA and the 2007 Toyota Yaris sedan. But all three were internet-fed drummings of fun for myself and myself only. My wife was never consulted about these possible purchases. Funny, the tC was dismissed like it never existed by her, when I finally brought up the fact that I loved the car.
The 2006 Scion xA was test-driven (as was the 2005 Scion tC RS 1.0 in Absolutely Red, twas a beautiful coupe) with my son, to get some more feedback from someone in the family. Both cars were rounded and cleanly whacked from my memory banks by her. :shades:
The red 2007 Toyota Yaris 5-speed sedan was never really discussed with my wife. I spose I didn't fall hard enough for it.
With the current rig we drive I fell in love with it over a period of about 5 months on the internet. By the time that pup was in the dealers I was talking about the car and sharing "why we should do this" and "why we're going to do this" with my wife for about 1 and a half to 2 months with her. The test drive was set up on the phone and the day to act was upon the both of us.
"I'm comin' along!" was my wife's reply to her question "Where ya goin'?" She never knew what hit her with the 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS in Rally Red. :P
And the rest if history. She and I now own our first Japanese car. I have never owned a Japanese vehicle of any kind before.
The point in this exercise is simply to say that in my (and her) personal case Toyota doesn't offer anything that prompts us to open our wallet up and pick and pull.
Also to make it clear I'm not hoping for Toyota's demise or for them to fall on hard times. But it seems that it might be starting to happen all by itself. By way of comparison Mitsubishi is hanging by a slim thread here-and, according to their CEO they're not abandoning their efforts in the U.S. I believe them and that makes me a happy camper.
But for Toyota loyalists to flat out claim that this is not having an impact on Toyota perception at least, if not sales, is mere folly. Toyota engineers need to get those smart pedals in ASAP and if need be, new floor pans, etc. And if something is catty-wampus in the ECU/drive-by-wire system a fix for that as well.
Right now it looks like this pup extends beyond just being a floor mat issue. 1 person dying from a crash that is a result of a faulty Toyota-sold floor mat/ECU/drive-by-wire/what-have-you system is 1 person too many perishing, right?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick